Good Riddance, Shaq - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Halx · 07-14-2004, 12:35 PM

Lakers To Do List:

Hire Coach? Check.
Shop Shaq? Check.
Re-sign Kobe? Pending...

A lot of reporters are saying how shipping away Shaq is a bad move for the Lakers, but I disagree. It became apparent that Shaq is a cancer this year. Personally, I found his current style of playing boring and his comments about not getting the ball enough are complete shit.

Now, we have Lamar Odom who is an All Star in the making, Caron Butler who is solid depth and Brian Grant - a center with an actual work ethic. Mix in Kobe, The Glove, The Mail Man (probable), and possibly Vlade. That's a team.

djtestudo · 07-14-2004, 12:49 PM

I think I will have a heart attack laughing if Kobe still goes to the Clippers after all this

Seriously though, you can make real arguments to show how both teams could have been robbed in this deal, depending on your opinion of the players LA got.

I'll just wait and see what happens before October.

BigGov · 07-14-2004, 01:47 PM

Hal, you forgot one thing.

Exit in the second round? Most likely

Odom sure is an all-star in the making, just ask the Clippers. Grant has been very mediocre for a very steep price. Butler might be good, but not great.

At least they got a first round pick out of the deal.

Halx · 07-14-2004, 01:51 PM

Oh Ye of little faith

Lakers will continue to be contenders.

degrawj · 07-14-2004, 03:24 PM

i'm sorry Hal, but i have to disagree with you. (politely of course) i feel that the reason why the lakers sucked so much this last year is because they went away from the whole idea that won them the last three championships: give shaq the ball. they got two more all stars on the team, and each one had to get their touches, and as a result, the quality of shaq's play diminished. whenever shaq did get the ball, it was business as usual: back himself up to the basket, and throw it down.

i don't think the lakers are going to be contenders next year. i also don't think they are going to be able to sign Kobe. but, we'll see. it should definitely make for an interesting season.

Kurant · 07-14-2004, 04:30 PM

Every LA fan knows 1 thing. You don't have 3 rings without Shaq. You can hate him all you want, but that's the bottom line. LA needs Shaq alot more then Shaq needs LA. There was no cancer. The cancer was Shaq and Kobe together. Kobe's legal trouble, Shaq's ego trouble. It just wasen't working anymore.

I do think the Lakers sign Kobe. I also think they are good enough to make the playoffs. (lets be real, Denver made it, with the talent the Lakers have, they will make it). But that's it, they aren't viable finals contenders.

It's still a rebuilding year. I think Jerry Buss is smart enough to see that, and don't be surprised if Grant and/or Butler are moved again, and Buss takes advantage of the 1st round pick with team looking to make cap room, like New Jersey or Cleveland.

I'm not a Lakers fan, I just enjoy watching them. (I'm a Bulls fan, we haven't had much to look foward to for a long time now. )

Halx · 07-14-2004, 04:48 PM

Shaq was great for a few years when Phil Jackson was here. Now he's on the decline. He has no work ethic. He has the most disruptive ego in the league. He trashed the Lakers organization while he failed to win a championship 2 years in a row. He reminds me of that Budweiser character 'Leon'

Kurant · 07-14-2004, 04:50 PM

What about Kobes ego? It's not like his is simple and elegant.

Nimbletoe · 07-14-2004, 07:44 PM

Eh, whats it matter? Pistons are just going to repeat

SAM821 · 07-14-2004, 08:37 PM

I Will be the FIRST to say it. Miami WILL be in the Finals next year, I guarantee it.... so laugh all you want now, but with Shaq & Dwayne Wade, and Eddie Jones as the number three scorer, you can put any other two on the court, and this team should dominate...

You heard it hear first!

Kurant · 07-14-2004, 08:45 PM

Pistons still have to sign Rasheed, right?

They won't win without him.

Mitzkrieg · 07-14-2004, 10:42 PM

detroit did re-sign rasheed. lost mehmet okur though. dunno how much that will affect them. he's a pretty decent player to bring in off the bench for ben wallace.

as for the lakers, i wouldn't count them out. even after detroit picked up rasheed last season, i don't think people were picking them to win a finals, especially against the lakers.

being a laker fan myself, i'm unhappy with the way things went. i think both the management and shaq had their pride in the way and weren't mature enough to deal with it. i would've prefered shaq to stay, but the trade was good enough. taking shaq's ft% into consideration, along with the fact that most of his game is bullying his way to the basket and dunking isn't a huge loss to me. his numbers have declined the last couple seasons, and i know you have to take into consideration adding malone and payton detracts from things, but still, i won't miss the hack-a-shaq one bit. if he could've made 65% to 70% of his free throws, a lot of the games they lost turn into wins.

i'll take odom, grant, and bulter. just putting each of them on the floor is more than 20% each in ft%. something the lakers have always had trouble with. also the fact that the lakers have been week at the forward position for the past bunch of seasons, picking up these guys improve that as well.

eh, there's more i could say, but i've said enough already. i believe the lakers could possibly make it to the conference finals next season if kobe stays and rudy t. works some magic.

Mojo_PeiPei · 07-14-2004, 11:04 PM

Kobe is the cancer of the team and perhaps the biggest reason the Lakers lost the championship (outside the fact that Detriot straight balled them). Kobe was trying WAY to hard to be the franchise and he was shooting the biggest garbage shots in such terrifying volume it's no wonder LA lost. Shaq should've gotten a touch everytime down. Basically what happened was Shaq would get 5-6 touches in about a 4-5 minute span, he'd drop about 8 points in that said window, but then for the next 5-8 minutes he wouldn't get one look.

LA is not going to be a contender next year, I'll put the farm on that. Unless they make some more deals over the course of the off season, when at the same time teams like Sac, Dallas, Pheonix, Minnesota (please dump Kandi and Wally!) and Denver are making some big moves, LA is fucked. I predict LA maybe being a 5-6 spot at best in the West and taking a first round exit. You have 0 size, and to much has been or zero talent players to do anything.

dtheriault · 07-14-2004, 11:59 PM

Here's a good article on the Shaq trade by Bill Simmons a former writer for Jimmy Kimmel and ESPN.

Article

My take:
Shaq was great for LA- he was like all great LA players larger than life and cared about the community. Kobe is amazing, but is he any different then KG or Duncan or McGrady? put a decent 2 guard or small forward who can score at the end of a game like peja, corey maggette, or paul pierce with shaq and you've got a title contender. Put Kobe with a decent center llike ... oh wait there are no decent centers in the league except shaq and yao.

you get the point.

I think it's great for Shaq he'll get motivated and all and now the true laker fans like myself can maybe sneak iinto a game or two.

I'll also enjoy seeing the lakers run and fastbreak again.

I would be even happier if the glove left. It's funny. I started out the season excited about gary and bummed about Karl (still remember how he treated magic when we first found out he had aids), but by the end of the season I saw each of their true colors.

Cross-Over · 07-15-2004, 06:22 AM

For those who think Shaq is on the decline, realize that with the addition of Karl and Gary, Kobe's numbers declined as well. Lets take a look:

Kobe:
In 02-03, he averaged 30 points, 6.9 rebounds, and 5.9 assists per game. He also averaged 2.21 steals per game.

In 03-04, he averaged 24 points, 5.5 rebounds, and 5.1 assists. He also avearged 1.72 steals per game.

Overall, this past season he averaged 6 less points, almost a rebound and a half less, and nearly an assist less per game than he did in 02-03. In addition, he shot a slightly lower percentage from the field and three point range. To his credit though, he turned the ball over less this past year.

Shaq:
02-03: Averaged 27.5 points, 11.10 rebounds, 3.1 assists, and 2.37 blocks per game

03-04: Averaged 21.5 points, 11.50 rebounds, 2.9 assists, and 2.48 blocks per game.

Just like Kobe, his scoring decreased by 6 points per game from the previous year. His assists per game barely decreased, and his blocks per game and field goal percentage (led the league) barely increased. His rebounds per game slightly increased.

Ya Shaq is older and only played 67 games this year, but he did the same the previous two years as well. Kobe only played 65 this year.

Numbers don't always tell the whole story, but I think they clearly indicate that both Kobe and Shaq were affected by the presence of two new additions to the team.

The blanket statements of "Shaq on the decline" should at least be changed to "Shaq, like Kobe scored 6 less points per game this year". But that still leaves the need for an explanation on why Kobe didn't share the ball as much and rebounded with less.

Cowman · 07-15-2004, 08:16 AM

Bill Simmons still writes for ESPN, in fact I think he solely writes for ESPN now.

balefire88 · 07-15-2004, 01:59 PM

Without Shaq, I think the Lakers are headed for a 6-7 seeding in the playoffs, (at best). Kobe remains the best 1-on-1 player in the league, but he only got to play 1-on-1 because you couldn't afford to double him and Shaq at the same time.

However, in the Finals, Prince did a fine job on him, and the Pistons collapsed on every one of his drives. If you watched the games, you'd notice that every piston player had their eyes on kobe, and whenever he drove, they'd clog the lane to help defend on him, knowing that he would not pass the ball much. They rarely doubled Shaq, because there was no need to. He was not the dominant force he used to be, where he would drop 40 points on 1-on-1 coverage from any center. However, the rest of the team didn't shoot very well at all, so passing might not have helped a lot. Still, passing to the open man, which will atleast force a rotation by the defense, could have given Shaq better position under the basket as well as some mis-matches. The triangle was totally dropped in that series.

The Glove has declined to a marginal player who can't even beat a healthy Fisher. He excercised his option to stay in LA because of the $5 million he's getting there, and won't get anywhere else. The Mailman has a lot of heart, and good baseketball sense, but he's old, he's hurting and he's not sure he's coming back, especially with Shaq gone.

Shaq is also declining, but I feel that he will come back next year in the best shape of the past 2-3 years because he has something to prove now. He has to show that the Lakers made a mistake trading him. And in the East, he won't be subjected to the same punishment during the regular season that he would take in the West.

Kobe is not MJ at his prime. Perhaps if we compare the MJ of 25, and the Kobe of 25, Kobe might have the better game overall, but what I feel everyone misses is that MJ could drive and dunk way better than Kobe seems capable off. Watch some past games of MJ, and you will see him dunking over Olajuwan (probably spelt wrong) multiple times in one game. MJ did this without any real big man to help draw away centers, and Kobe only seems to be able to dunk on break-aways. Next year will be the defining seasno for Kobe. He has had to live under high expectations, and we shall find out if he can actually carry a team without the 'most dominant' player in the league.

The two times a year that LA plays Miami, it'll hurt as a Laker fan to be watching the spanking probably awaiting the Lakers.

maximusveritas · 07-15-2004, 02:56 PM

I think the Lakers will be a decent team without Shaq, but I wouldn't be surprised if they fail to get a playoff spot. The Western Conference should be even deeper than usual next year, with teams like the Suns ready to get back into the playoffs again.
Meanwhile the Heat should be very good and have smooth sailing in the East. Shaq instantly becomes the undisputed leader of the team, something he never really was on the Lakers. The Pistons still have to be considered the favorites, but I wouldn't put the Heat very far back.

sixate · 07-15-2004, 03:58 PM

All I'll say is the Lakers will regret trading Shaq. Fuck Kobe!
As much as I've always loved the Lakers, I just don't think I can support this team any more. Kobe is no MJ, and he never will be. He would never in a million years win 6 rings without the best/most dominant center in the NBA.

Cowman · 07-15-2004, 05:59 PM

How about Denver? The K-Mart deal was just finalized..between him, Anthony, and Camby you've gotta think they're going to be contenders next year.

Sargeman · 07-16-2004, 07:30 AM

I hate the Lakers with a passion but IMO Kobe was the biggest cancer on the team. Now that Shaq is gone maybe he can get back to playing some ball.

I think many have made some good posts reflecting my feelings so the only thing I could really add is I can like Shaq again, even though he's playing for the Heat and not the Sixers or Mavs.

Halx · 07-16-2004, 10:47 AM

This was posted on a Lakers forum that I frequent:

http://forums.lakersground.net/viewt...926&forum=1&27

Quote:

Now that the era of Kobe/Shaq is over--and the Miami media is proclaiming Shaq as being the savior--I have to say that Shaq blew it. Terribly.
Any objective observer would have to admit that Shaq' skills were beginning on the downward slope. A lot of reasons exist for this. Shaq had horrible attitude towards staying in shape. He let excess weight and generally slovenly lifestyle during the off-season to contribute to the fact that he was getting older.

We all get older. Our bodies take a beating. I myself was hospitalized for three weeks in February after major back surgery and am still going through rehab. That's called life.

Shaq could never understand this. He could not accept a very fundamental fact of life--he was getting older, slower and Kobe Bryant represented the future of the franchise.

We will never know how good the Lakers could have been towards the latter stages of his career. Had he done what David Robinson did, Kobe/Shaq as a tandem would have become perhaps the best all-time one-two punch ever.

Robinson accepted the fact that he was getting older. He accepted the fact that Tim was now the offensive threat. He did not run away from this--he embraced it.

Kobe did not have the benefit of a teammate who accepted a fundamental fact of life like Tim Duncan did. Robinson proclaimed Tim to be the key player and accepted the fact this his own minutes would reduce, he would score fewer points, and that the offense would go through Tim Duncan.

Result: Robinson and Duncan became brothers. Even in his retirement, Robinson stays close to Tim--calling him, encouraging him, watching the games from the bleachers.

Kobe was deprived of this kind of support. Incredibly, as a parting shot at Kobe, Shaq had the gall to say that Kobe never made anyone a better player.

Shaq will soon find out his accusation against Kobe actually applied to himself.

Shaq had a chance to thank the Lakers for all the opportunities--the championships, the fans. He had a chance to thank Kobe for their years together and to wish him well.

His exit showed what he became after all these years. Bitter. Mean-spirited. He became a cancer on this team.

Shaq grew older, but refused to grow up. He blew it.

Lestat · 07-16-2004, 10:01 PM

Dr. Buss is no dummy. The Lakers may not be great this year (they will make the playoffs), they are better off trading Shaq to get younger and quicker. They will continue to improve.

Mojo_PeiPei · 07-16-2004, 10:25 PM

Lakers will struggle to make the playoffs: 1-6 Minnesota, San Antonio, Sacramento, Dallas, Memphis, Denver... LA will be left to battle it out with Portland, Pheonix, and Utah.

Nimbletoe · 07-17-2004, 03:57 AM

Yeah, in terms of overall strength of teams, the west is going to be tougher this year for making the playoffs. It seems the only clueless teams at this point are Seattle and Golden State (WTF are they doing signing a 3rd point guard in fisher??)

wjbertrand · 07-17-2004, 04:59 AM

The Lakers are pretty much done now. And it's great to see. They have no threat in the middle, no point guard and Kobe is their only real offense. And what happens if he gets sentenced in the rape trial. I don't think he will, rich athletes never do, but it's something to consider.

goddfather40 · 07-17-2004, 10:34 AM

Alright, it's time for me to chime in.

I am sad to see Shaq leave. But I think it was the right move. Dr. Buss and Kupchak knew all season that Shaq was going to be gone by end of the '04-'05 season at least. He rejected a three-year contract extension last summer that would have made him the highest paid player in the league. He WAS going to be a free agent next year and therefore he would have left the Lakers and the Lakers would have got nothing in return. NBA GM's no doubt knew this, and any leverage the Laker's had was evaporating week by week.

Also, as a person who has watched almost every Laker game for the past 10 years and watched almost every game this year, I can tell you that Shaq's skills have diminished. Sure, he is still the most dominant player in the league but he was tired and immobile many times during the year. Inconsistency is going to be even more apparent next year.

As for those people who feel Kobe has not proved himself in the league, I can tell that the Lakers would not have won the three titles in a row without Kobe (or without Shaq of course too). Even in 00', when Shaq had his most dominant year, they would not have won without Kobe. Would the Lakers have won Game 4 of the '00 Finals when Shaq fouled out and Kobe took over in OT, or even Game 1 against Phoenix in the western semi's that year? Kobe is perennial all-NBA on defense and overall. He is a great passer and the best one on one player in the league. Anyone who quotes the Lakers relatively dismal record when Shaq was injured is not telling the whole story. Those times they didn't have three players replacing Shaq, let alone a solid player like Odom.

For what it's worth, I think the Lakers will go 49-33 next year. Kobe is the best competitor in the league and doesn't not accept losing very well. Kobe will benefit from not being bound by the triangle. With a couple more moves, hopefully the Lakers will contend for the title in 2 or 3 years.

Lakers fans are split over the events of the past few weeks, but only time will tell whether the decisions made were good or bad for the team. Anyone who thinks they know what is going to happen is only guessing.

goddfather40 · 07-17-2004, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wjbertrand
The Lakers are pretty much done now. And it's great to see. They have no threat in the middle, no point guard and Kobe is their only real offense. And what happens if he gets sentenced in the rape trial. I don't think he will, rich athletes never do, but it's something to consider.

Can you name one really good center in the West besides Yao? The truth is Shaq rarely guarded the likes of the great big guys of the West: Garnett, Nowitski, Duncan, etc because they're power forwards. He defended Nestrovic, Ervin Johnson, Vlade, etc. Yes the hole in the middle is big, but it is not as bad as people are making it out to be. Brian Grant is a decent defender for the great PF's. Kobe will not be the only real offense. If you don't consider Odom a 'real' offensive player I don't know who is.

Hrothgar · 07-21-2004, 06:41 PM

I think its great. I hated Shaq as a Laker but now that he's on another team I like him.

The same people that thought the Lakers would sweep the Pistons are still clinging to some sense of superiority not taking into consideration that other teams in the west have gotten stronger.

braindamage351 · 07-23-2004, 09:51 PM

Although I hate to say it, Shaq = automatic points. Too many good players will wreck a team. Just look at the NFL all-star game. All of the players are trying to show off, and they end up sucking.

satisfried · 08-05-2004, 10:08 PM

being from Indiana, i have mixed feelings on shaq.

i think he's really only as good as his size, speed, and strength dictate. i loathed my team playing against him in Orlando, and in LA. i think he's mentally a big pushy rich kid. he's going to have his hands full in Miami trying to be the go to guy, even though they'll be a definite threat in the east.

all that said, i was tired of the Lakers domination, and glad to see an eastern team (even though Detroit ruined our chance at the finals) win a title again.

maybe there really was no way for the Lakers to move on with Shaq in the current situation? if that's the case, both teams are winners, getting rid of someone who won't keep the team playing as a TEAM was probably the best move they could make.

i dunno. the nba is like a complex jigsaw puzzle filled with overpaid athletes, overblown egos, a few winners and lots of losers.

07-14-2004, 12:35 PM	#1 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Good Riddance, Shaq Lakers To Do List: Hire Coach? Check. Shop Shaq? Check. Re-sign Kobe? Pending... A lot of reporters are saying how shipping away Shaq is a bad move for the Lakers, but I disagree. It became apparent that Shaq is a cancer this year. Personally, I found his current style of playing boring and his comments about not getting the ball enough are complete shit. Now, we have Lamar Odom who is an All Star in the making, Caron Butler who is solid depth and Brian Grant - a center with an actual work ethic. Mix in Kobe, The Glove, The Mail Man (probable), and possibly Vlade. That's a team. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

07-14-2004, 12:49 PM	#2 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	I think I will have a heart attack laughing if Kobe still goes to the Clippers after all this Seriously though, you can make real arguments to show how both teams could have been robbed in this deal, depending on your opinion of the players LA got. I'll just wait and see what happens before October. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

07-14-2004, 01:47 PM	#3 (permalink)
BigGov WoW or Class... Location: UWW	Hal, you forgot one thing. Exit in the second round? Most likely Odom sure is an all-star in the making, just ask the Clippers. Grant has been very mediocre for a very steep price. Butler might be good, but not great. At least they got a first round pick out of the deal. __________________ One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

07-14-2004, 01:51 PM	#4 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Oh Ye of little faith Lakers will continue to be contenders. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

07-14-2004, 04:30 PM	#6 (permalink)
Kurant Junkie Location: Don't worry about it.	Every LA fan knows 1 thing. You don't have 3 rings without Shaq. You can hate him all you want, but that's the bottom line. LA needs Shaq alot more then Shaq needs LA. There was no cancer. The cancer was Shaq and Kobe together. Kobe's legal trouble, Shaq's ego trouble. It just wasen't working anymore. I do think the Lakers sign Kobe. I also think they are good enough to make the playoffs. (lets be real, Denver made it, with the talent the Lakers have, they will make it). But that's it, they aren't viable finals contenders. It's still a rebuilding year. I think Jerry Buss is smart enough to see that, and don't be surprised if Grant and/or Butler are moved again, and Buss takes advantage of the 1st round pick with team looking to make cap room, like New Jersey or Cleveland. I'm not a Lakers fan, I just enjoy watching them. (I'm a Bulls fan, we haven't had much to look foward to for a long time now. ) Last edited by Kurant; 07-14-2004 at 04:32 PM..

07-14-2004, 03:24 PM	#5 (permalink)
degrawj I'm still waiting... Location: West Linn, OR	i'm sorry Hal, but i have to disagree with you. (politely of course) i feel that the reason why the lakers sucked so much this last year is because they went away from the whole idea that won them the last three championships: give shaq the ball. they got two more all stars on the team, and each one had to get their touches, and as a result, the quality of shaq's play diminished. whenever shaq did get the ball, it was business as usual: back himself up to the basket, and throw it down. i don't think the lakers are going to be contenders next year. i also don't think they are going to be able to sign Kobe. but, we'll see. it should definitely make for an interesting season.

07-14-2004, 04:48 PM	#7 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Shaq was great for a few years when Phil Jackson was here. Now he's on the decline. He has no work ethic. He has the most disruptive ego in the league. He trashed the Lakers organization while he failed to win a championship 2 years in a row. He reminds me of that Budweiser character 'Leon' __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

07-14-2004, 04:50 PM	#8 (permalink)
Kurant Junkie Location: Don't worry about it.	What about Kobes ego? It's not like his is simple and elegant.

07-14-2004, 07:44 PM	#9 (permalink)
Nimbletoe Junkie Location: Michigan	Eh, whats it matter? Pistons are just going to repeat __________________ Go Pistons!

07-14-2004, 08:37 PM	#10 (permalink)
SAM821 Surviving Hurricanes Location: Miami, Florida	I Will be the FIRST to say it. Miami WILL be in the Finals next year, I guarantee it.... so laugh all you want now, but with Shaq & Dwayne Wade, and Eddie Jones as the number three scorer, you can put any other two on the court, and this team should dominate... You heard it hear first!

07-14-2004, 08:45 PM	#11 (permalink)
Kurant Junkie Location: Don't worry about it.	Pistons still have to sign Rasheed, right? They won't win without him.

07-14-2004, 10:42 PM	#12 (permalink)
Mitzkrieg Insane	detroit did re-sign rasheed. lost mehmet okur though. dunno how much that will affect them. he's a pretty decent player to bring in off the bench for ben wallace. as for the lakers, i wouldn't count them out. even after detroit picked up rasheed last season, i don't think people were picking them to win a finals, especially against the lakers. being a laker fan myself, i'm unhappy with the way things went. i think both the management and shaq had their pride in the way and weren't mature enough to deal with it. i would've prefered shaq to stay, but the trade was good enough. taking shaq's ft% into consideration, along with the fact that most of his game is bullying his way to the basket and dunking isn't a huge loss to me. his numbers have declined the last couple seasons, and i know you have to take into consideration adding malone and payton detracts from things, but still, i won't miss the hack-a-shaq one bit. if he could've made 65% to 70% of his free throws, a lot of the games they lost turn into wins. i'll take odom, grant, and bulter. just putting each of them on the floor is more than 20% each in ft%. something the lakers have always had trouble with. also the fact that the lakers have been week at the forward position for the past bunch of seasons, picking up these guys improve that as well. eh, there's more i could say, but i've said enough already. i believe the lakers could possibly make it to the conference finals next season if kobe stays and rudy t. works some magic. Last edited by Mitzkrieg; 07-14-2004 at 10:54 PM..

07-14-2004, 11:04 PM	#13 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Kobe is the cancer of the team and perhaps the biggest reason the Lakers lost the championship (outside the fact that Detriot straight balled them). Kobe was trying WAY to hard to be the franchise and he was shooting the biggest garbage shots in such terrifying volume it's no wonder LA lost. Shaq should've gotten a touch everytime down. Basically what happened was Shaq would get 5-6 touches in about a 4-5 minute span, he'd drop about 8 points in that said window, but then for the next 5-8 minutes he wouldn't get one look. LA is not going to be a contender next year, I'll put the farm on that. Unless they make some more deals over the course of the off season, when at the same time teams like Sac, Dallas, Pheonix, Minnesota (please dump Kandi and Wally!) and Denver are making some big moves, LA is fucked. I predict LA maybe being a 5-6 spot at best in the West and taking a first round exit. You have 0 size, and to much has been or zero talent players to do anything. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

07-14-2004, 11:59 PM	#14 (permalink)
dtheriault Psycho Location: maybe utah	I'll miss him Here's a good article on the Shaq trade by Bill Simmons a former writer for Jimmy Kimmel and ESPN. Article My take: Shaq was great for LA- he was like all great LA players larger than life and cared about the community. Kobe is amazing, but is he any different then KG or Duncan or McGrady? put a decent 2 guard or small forward who can score at the end of a game like peja, corey maggette, or paul pierce with shaq and you've got a title contender. Put Kobe with a decent center llike ... oh wait there are no decent centers in the league except shaq and yao. you get the point. I think it's great for Shaq he'll get motivated and all and now the true laker fans like myself can maybe sneak iinto a game or two. I'll also enjoy seeing the lakers run and fastbreak again. I would be even happier if the glove left. It's funny. I started out the season excited about gary and bummed about Karl (still remember how he treated magic when we first found out he had aids), but by the end of the season I saw each of their true colors. __________________ "Remember, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen." -Homer Unless you are the freakin Highlander, what is the point in learning how to fight with a sword?

07-15-2004, 06:22 AM	#15 (permalink)
Cross-Over Psycho	For those who think Shaq is on the decline, realize that with the addition of Karl and Gary, Kobe's numbers declined as well. Lets take a look: Kobe: In 02-03, he averaged 30 points, 6.9 rebounds, and 5.9 assists per game. He also averaged 2.21 steals per game. In 03-04, he averaged 24 points, 5.5 rebounds, and 5.1 assists. He also avearged 1.72 steals per game. Overall, this past season he averaged 6 less points, almost a rebound and a half less, and nearly an assist less per game than he did in 02-03. In addition, he shot a slightly lower percentage from the field and three point range. To his credit though, he turned the ball over less this past year. Shaq: 02-03: Averaged 27.5 points, 11.10 rebounds, 3.1 assists, and 2.37 blocks per game 03-04: Averaged 21.5 points, 11.50 rebounds, 2.9 assists, and 2.48 blocks per game. Just like Kobe, his scoring decreased by 6 points per game from the previous year. His assists per game barely decreased, and his blocks per game and field goal percentage (led the league) barely increased. His rebounds per game slightly increased. Ya Shaq is older and only played 67 games this year, but he did the same the previous two years as well. Kobe only played 65 this year. Numbers don't always tell the whole story, but I think they clearly indicate that both Kobe and Shaq were affected by the presence of two new additions to the team. The blanket statements of "Shaq on the decline" should at least be changed to "Shaq, like Kobe scored 6 less points per game this year". But that still leaves the need for an explanation on why Kobe didn't share the ball as much and rebounded with less.

07-15-2004, 08:16 AM	#16 (permalink)
Cowman Psycho	Bill Simmons still writes for ESPN, in fact I think he solely writes for ESPN now. __________________ You don't like my point of view..but im insane

07-15-2004, 01:59 PM	#17 (permalink)
balefire88 Tilted	Without Shaq, I think the Lakers are headed for a 6-7 seeding in the playoffs, (at best). Kobe remains the best 1-on-1 player in the league, but he only got to play 1-on-1 because you couldn't afford to double him and Shaq at the same time. However, in the Finals, Prince did a fine job on him, and the Pistons collapsed on every one of his drives. If you watched the games, you'd notice that every piston player had their eyes on kobe, and whenever he drove, they'd clog the lane to help defend on him, knowing that he would not pass the ball much. They rarely doubled Shaq, because there was no need to. He was not the dominant force he used to be, where he would drop 40 points on 1-on-1 coverage from any center. However, the rest of the team didn't shoot very well at all, so passing might not have helped a lot. Still, passing to the open man, which will atleast force a rotation by the defense, could have given Shaq better position under the basket as well as some mis-matches. The triangle was totally dropped in that series. The Glove has declined to a marginal player who can't even beat a healthy Fisher. He excercised his option to stay in LA because of the $5 million he's getting there, and won't get anywhere else. The Mailman has a lot of heart, and good baseketball sense, but he's old, he's hurting and he's not sure he's coming back, especially with Shaq gone. Shaq is also declining, but I feel that he will come back next year in the best shape of the past 2-3 years because he has something to prove now. He has to show that the Lakers made a mistake trading him. And in the East, he won't be subjected to the same punishment during the regular season that he would take in the West. Kobe is not MJ at his prime. Perhaps if we compare the MJ of 25, and the Kobe of 25, Kobe might have the better game overall, but what I feel everyone misses is that MJ could drive and dunk way better than Kobe seems capable off. Watch some past games of MJ, and you will see him dunking over Olajuwan (probably spelt wrong) multiple times in one game. MJ did this without any real big man to help draw away centers, and Kobe only seems to be able to dunk on break-aways. Next year will be the defining seasno for Kobe. He has had to live under high expectations, and we shall find out if he can actually carry a team without the 'most dominant' player in the league. The two times a year that LA plays Miami, it'll hurt as a Laker fan to be watching the spanking probably awaiting the Lakers.

07-15-2004, 02:56 PM	#18 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	I think the Lakers will be a decent team without Shaq, but I wouldn't be surprised if they fail to get a playoff spot. The Western Conference should be even deeper than usual next year, with teams like the Suns ready to get back into the playoffs again. Meanwhile the Heat should be very good and have smooth sailing in the East. Shaq instantly becomes the undisputed leader of the team, something he never really was on the Lakers. The Pistons still have to be considered the favorites, but I wouldn't put the Heat very far back.

07-15-2004, 03:58 PM	#19 (permalink)
sixate Registered User Location: Somewhere in Ohio	All I'll say is the Lakers will regret trading Shaq. Fuck Kobe! As much as I've always loved the Lakers, I just don't think I can support this team any more. Kobe is no MJ, and he never will be. He would never in a million years win 6 rings without the best/most dominant center in the NBA.

07-15-2004, 05:59 PM	#20 (permalink)
Cowman Psycho	How about Denver? The K-Mart deal was just finalized..between him, Anthony, and Camby you've gotta think they're going to be contenders next year. __________________ You don't like my point of view..but im insane

07-16-2004, 07:30 AM	#21 (permalink)
Sargeman Insane Location: Texas	I hate the Lakers with a passion but IMO Kobe was the biggest cancer on the team. Now that Shaq is gone maybe he can get back to playing some ball. I think many have made some good posts reflecting my feelings so the only thing I could really add is I can like Shaq again, even though he's playing for the Heat and not the Sixers or Mavs. __________________ ...because there are no facts, there is no truth, just data to be manipulated. I can get you any results you like, what's it worth to you.....

07-16-2004, 10:01 PM	#23 (permalink)
Lestat Psycho Location: Riverside, CA	Dr. Buss is no dummy. The Lakers may not be great this year (they will make the playoffs), they are better off trading Shaq to get younger and quicker. They will continue to improve. __________________ I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it. - Jack Handy

07-16-2004, 10:25 PM	#24 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Lakers will struggle to make the playoffs: 1-6 Minnesota, San Antonio, Sacramento, Dallas, Memphis, Denver... LA will be left to battle it out with Portland, Pheonix, and Utah. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

07-17-2004, 03:57 AM	#25 (permalink)
Nimbletoe Junkie Location: Michigan	Yeah, in terms of overall strength of teams, the west is going to be tougher this year for making the playoffs. It seems the only clueless teams at this point are Seattle and Golden State (WTF are they doing signing a 3rd point guard in fisher??) __________________ Go Pistons!

07-17-2004, 04:59 AM	#26 (permalink)
wjbertrand Crazy	The Lakers are pretty much done now. And it's great to see. They have no threat in the middle, no point guard and Kobe is their only real offense. And what happens if he gets sentenced in the rape trial. I don't think he will, rich athletes never do, but it's something to consider. __________________ Every government is run by liars, and nothing they say should be believed. I.F. Stone

07-17-2004, 10:34 AM	#27 (permalink)
goddfather40 Llama Location: Cali-for-nye-a	Alright, it's time for me to chime in. I am sad to see Shaq leave. But I think it was the right move. Dr. Buss and Kupchak knew all season that Shaq was going to be gone by end of the '04-'05 season at least. He rejected a three-year contract extension last summer that would have made him the highest paid player in the league. He WAS going to be a free agent next year and therefore he would have left the Lakers and the Lakers would have got nothing in return. NBA GM's no doubt knew this, and any leverage the Laker's had was evaporating week by week. Also, as a person who has watched almost every Laker game for the past 10 years and watched almost every game this year, I can tell you that Shaq's skills have diminished. Sure, he is still the most dominant player in the league but he was tired and immobile many times during the year. Inconsistency is going to be even more apparent next year. As for those people who feel Kobe has not proved himself in the league, I can tell that the Lakers would not have won the three titles in a row without Kobe (or without Shaq of course too). Even in 00', when Shaq had his most dominant year, they would not have won without Kobe. Would the Lakers have won Game 4 of the '00 Finals when Shaq fouled out and Kobe took over in OT, or even Game 1 against Phoenix in the western semi's that year? Kobe is perennial all-NBA on defense and overall. He is a great passer and the best one on one player in the league. Anyone who quotes the Lakers relatively dismal record when Shaq was injured is not telling the whole story. Those times they didn't have three players replacing Shaq, let alone a solid player like Odom. For what it's worth, I think the Lakers will go 49-33 next year. Kobe is the best competitor in the league and doesn't not accept losing very well. Kobe will benefit from not being bound by the triangle. With a couple more moves, hopefully the Lakers will contend for the title in 2 or 3 years. Lakers fans are split over the events of the past few weeks, but only time will tell whether the decisions made were good or bad for the team. Anyone who thinks they know what is going to happen is only guessing. __________________ My name is goddfather40 and I approved this message. I got ho's and I got bitches, In C++ I branch with switches -MC Plus+ Last edited by goddfather40; 07-17-2004 at 10:37 AM..

07-21-2004, 06:41 PM	#29 (permalink)
Hrothgar He's My Girl Location: The Champagne Douche	I think its great. I hated Shaq as a Laker but now that he's on another team I like him. The same people that thought the Lakers would sweep the Pistons are still clinging to some sense of superiority not taking into consideration that other teams in the west have gotten stronger. __________________ The fortunes of war favored Hrothgar.

07-23-2004, 09:51 PM	#30 (permalink)
braindamage351 Insane	Although I hate to say it, Shaq = automatic points. Too many good players will wreck a team. Just look at the NFL all-star game. All of the players are trying to show off, and they end up sucking.

08-05-2004, 10:08 PM	#31 (permalink)
satisfried Upright Location: Indianapolis	being from Indiana, i have mixed feelings on shaq. i think he's really only as good as his size, speed, and strength dictate. i loathed my team playing against him in Orlando, and in LA. i think he's mentally a big pushy rich kid. he's going to have his hands full in Miami trying to be the go to guy, even though they'll be a definite threat in the east. all that said, i was tired of the Lakers domination, and glad to see an eastern team (even though Detroit ruined our chance at the finals) win a title again. maybe there really was no way for the Lakers to move on with Shaq in the current situation? if that's the case, both teams are winners, getting rid of someone who won't keep the team playing as a TEAM was probably the best move they could make. i dunno. the nba is like a complex jigsaw puzzle filled with overpaid athletes, overblown egos, a few winners and lots of losers.