Baylor - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

The_Dude · 08-16-2003, 10:10 PM

so, what about baylor??

i think they need their asses thrown out of the big 12. not only do they suck at EVERYTHING, they are involved in shitloads of scandals.

one of the members of their b-ball team gets killed and another one is arrested for the crime.

Quote:

Former Baylor basketball coach Dave Bliss tried to cover up alleged NCAA violations by telling assistant coaches and players to lie and say a slain player had been dealing drugs to pay for school, secretly recorded audiotapes reveal.

they're in a very deep mess right now.

------------

they're just not a big 12 calibur team.

Football - they suck ASS. one league win in 45 games or what?

Basketball - a pathetic 5-11 in the league.

Baseball - The only bright spot for the school, but it's nothing amazing.

i havent heard baylor doing anything impessive in any other sports either. this is not just a bad season for baylor athletics, but it's been here for a long time.

Quote:

Baylor ranked last in Big 12 football attendance last year, second-to-last in basketball. And that's after basketball attendance doubled under Bliss.

The other 11 football schools in the Big 12 drew an average of 57,743 fans last season. Their stadiums were, on average, 90 percent full.

The Bears averaged 28,018 attendees, less than half the average of the other Big 12 schools, and that's with many home crowds boosted by large contingents of visiting fans. Baylor 's stadium, on average, was just 56 percent full.

anyway, enough ranting. your thoughts?

BigGov · 08-16-2003, 11:36 PM

Baylor out, Notre Dame in, hmm...That sounds like a good deal.

If only Notre Dame would go.

dtheriault · 08-17-2003, 06:10 AM

can you imagine how upset the parents are. you find out not only is your kid dead, but the coach knew that another kid had been threatening him and was hiding it to save his rep. AND... that same coach makes up a lie about your dead son being a drug dealer to further save his.....rep.

i hope he does some jail time. (the coach)

fearofmear · 08-17-2003, 07:35 AM

Every major conference needs a team like Baylor to beat up on. That is Baylor for the Big 12 or Vanderbilt for the SEC. Although I will agree, Baylor should go if the allegations are true.

Empty_One · 08-17-2003, 09:39 AM

I think someone needs to kick the living crap out of that coach. Then, arrest his lying, cheating ass.

RoadRage · 08-17-2003, 10:55 AM

Baylor should never have been in the Big XII in the first place. A big fuck you goes out to former Texas governor Ann Richards for arm-twisting Texas, Texas A&M, and Texas Tech into making the BIg XII take Baylor in as well.

Who should replace Baylor? The three best candidates are Arkansas, Texas Christian, and Colorado State.

TCU and Colorado State are non-BCS schools who would kill for the chance to jump up. Both are perennial contenders in their respective conferences in all sports and would have immediate rivalries in the Big XII.

Arkansas is in a BCS conference with whom they don't fit well geographically and whose alumni would love resuming old rivalries with the other Big XII South schools. Arkansas is closer to all other Big XII schools than it is to Knoxville, Athens, Gainesville, or Columbia.

For Arkansas to jump conferences, it would require some skilled negotiation with the SEC and probably require the entry of either Southern Mississippi or Louisville (the two leading contenders IMHO) into the SEC as well. To get Colorado State or TCU would simply require a written invitation.

CrazyIntent · 08-17-2003, 11:22 AM

Dave Bliss is true scum.

Splice · 08-17-2003, 11:57 AM

Cover ups came by bit him in the ass!

The_Dude · 08-17-2003, 12:36 PM

colorado state would be the best choice.

TCU is a private school and may end up just like baylor.

iowa is a good candidate since big 12 already has a member in iowa (the state).

LSU could also be considered.

but, it would take 9 votes to kick baylor out........which is pretty hard to get.

gov135 · 08-17-2003, 12:59 PM

Bliss is scum.

I'm not sure if he did anything criminal, however. He lied, misrepresented, used his authority poorly, etc. He should have paid more attention to the kid. But Dotson shot Dennehey, not Bliss. The Dennehey family probably hoped their son was in more competent hands than they came to find out. But these players are adults, coaches are not responsible for parenting their players, and Dotson is ultimately responsible for the tragedy, not Bliss.

BigGov · 08-17-2003, 02:06 PM

He could be charged with obstruction and such.

Little charges can add up quickly. It also helps that he'll never get a job from a respected university again.

RoadRage · 08-18-2003, 12:25 AM

Quote:

but, it would take 9 votes to kick baylor out........which is pretty hard to get.

Any more scandal comes out of Baylor, and 9 votes might not be too hard to get, especially considering that Baylor is the welfare-case of the Big XII. Baylor contributes little if any to the Big XII, but is always there when it comes time to divide up the TV and bowl money.

Oh yeah, North Texas probably needs to be on the consideration list. After all, everyone needs a whipping boy, and right now Baylor is the Big XII South's spank-monkey. The Mean Green at least cares enough to field a legitmate football team, quite unlike Baylor.

RoadRage · 08-19-2003, 05:18 PM

From ESPN's Andy Katz:

Quote:

Baylor's chances of putting a competitive team on the court for the coming season continue to diminish, as sophomore guard Kenny Taylor announced Tuesday that he would transfer to Texas. This news comes on the heels of Monday's transfer of leading scorer and Wooden All-American Lawrence Roberts to Mississippi State.

Taylor, a junior guard, decided on Texas on Tuesday even though he doesn't know if he can play next season. Taylor's situation is a bit more precarious than Roberts' or incoming freshman Tyrone Nelson, who left for Prairie View A&M, since Taylor is transferring to a team within the Big 12.

Taylor, who was third on the team in scoring with 11.8 points per game last season, would have to sit out one year and lose a season of eligibility under normal transfer rules within the conference. That would leave him with only one season of eligibility. Texas is waiting for a ruling from the Big 12 office to waive the one-year eligibility loss penalty. The Longhorns have a scholarship available for Taylor and will appeal on his behalf.

An NCAA spokesperson said Monday afternoon that the NCAA is waiting for Baylor's final report before ruling on the waiver, but that they want to act as quickly as possible. The spokesperson said the NCAA is aware of the sensitivity and immediacy needed in this case.

Baylor also expects to lose second-leading scorer John Lucas III, who is expected to visit Memphis, Georgia and Rutgers in the coming week. If Lucas III leaves, Baylor would be left with eight scholarship players, although more defections could occur.

Roberts told ESPN.com Monday night that he expects a number of players to leave.

"The seniors will probably stay but it's going to be tough,'' Roberts said. "It's going to be tough on them to make it through the season. I feel sorry for those seniors and anyone who does stay. It's going to be tough on them to make it through the first year.''

…

Incoming freshman Carl Marshall has not yet indicated that he would not come to Baylor. Baylor and the Big 12 are adamant that the Bears will field a team for the 2003-04 season. They are pursuing a new coach, with Sam Houston State's Bob Marlin, Samford's Jimmy Tillette and Indiana assistant John Treloar as some who have expressed interest in the job. The committee conducting the search was supposed to meet late Monday or early Tuesday.

What happens if Baylor fails to field a basketball team? Eight of the Big XII schools (5 in the South and 3 in the North) have Baylor at home, and if Baylor doesn't field a team then the revenue that would have been generated at that game won't be there. Eight is just one short of the three-quarters necessary to boot Baylor. If they vote on the ejection soon enough, they can withhold Baylor's share of the BCS money as well.

The_Dude · 08-19-2003, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RoadRage
From http://espn.go.com/ncb/columns/katz_andy/1598791.html]ESPN[/url]'s Andy Katz:

What happens if Baylor fails to field a basketball team? Eight of the Big XII schools (5 in the South and 3 in the North) have Baylor at home, and if Baylor doesn't field a team then the revenue that would have been generated at that game won't be there. Eight is just one short of the three-quarters necessary to boot Baylor. If they vote on the ejection soon enough, they can withhold Baylor's share of the BCS money as well.

i'm sure they can field a team. there are lots of would-be walkons avaliable if there aint enough members on the team.

hell, the coach could just go into a random class and pick 5 guys and offer them scholarships to play for the team.

but.........such a decision would also help get the 9 votes necessary to give 'em the boot.

dy156 · 08-22-2003, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Baylor should never have been in the Big XII in the first place. A big fuck you goes out to former Texas governor Ann Richards for arm-twisting Texas, Texas A&M, and Texas Tech into making the BIg XII take Baylor in as well

You do not know what you are talking about.

At the time, Baylor had higher attendance figures than any school in the southwest conference save UT and A&M. Baylor had a higher number of students than SMU, TCU, and Rice combined. Baylor's football coach at the time was extremely well respected, and is now the executive director of the College Football coaches association. If any individual had something to do with Baylor's inclusion into the big twelve, he certainly had more to do with it than either Ann Richards or Bob Bullock, then the Lt. Gov. of TX. The next to last year of the Southwest Conference's existence, Baylor shared the conference championship in football. From 1980-1994, when the decision was made, Baylor's record in football was 108-77-4. They won about 2/3rds of their games. The conference needed twelve teams for organizational reasons, and Baylor was a natural choice. Just because both the governor and lt. gov. of TX were from Baylor at the time, this rumor has persisted.

While we have problems in the two major sports, we have upgraded all of our facilities, and our other sports are extremely competitive. (baseball has consistently been in the top twenty and our track team competes for national championships -Anyone remember Michael Johnson?) TCU, North Texas, and all the other schools mentioned as replacements would likely face the same football setbacks as Baylor has seen, but would not have the resources to bounce back or compete in other areas.

As an alum, I am sick and tired of hearing everyone around the country bash Baylor. Yes, some extremely tragic things happened this summer, and it appears that our basketball program, headed by a formerly well regarded and successful coach at several other schools, was completely out of control. However, their actions should not reflect on the institution as a whole. Baylor has been forthcoming throughout the investigation, and did the honorable thing by requesting and obtaining a special NCAA exemption allowing its scholarship athletes to transfer without having to sit out a year. Yes, this is a dark hour for baylor, but we will be back. Following the death of Len Bias, Maryland's basketball program was in similar disarray, and they seem to have done okay recently. While our football team still has troubles ahead, the new coach has already made significant improvements, and the team should at least be competitive this year, despite almost no recruiting due to his late start.
Don't mess with a wounded Bear!

Okay, enough venting my frustration, but by the way, The_Dude, I recall watching Baylor beat UT 50-7 in Austin.

The_Dude · 08-22-2003, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dy156
Okay, enough venting my frustration, but by the way, The_Dude, I recall watching Baylor beat UT 50-7 in Austin.

how many decades ago was that?

and you cant live today on what the school did centuries ago.

i've actually visited baylor a couple of times and they do have great facilities, but not great teams that use them.

when was the last time that baylor had a game (any game) televised on national tv? (i'm talking about the networks).

a huge portion of revenues come from tv contracts and bowl games. when was the last time that baylor had a nationally televised game (network televised) or a bowl game?

dy156 · 08-25-2003, 06:33 AM

I don't know the last network televised game, but the last one I specifically remember was the game against Texas in '97, a close game in Waco, and we won.
Last Bowl game was in '94 or '95 I think. Yes, it was almost a decade ago, but I never said we were good at football now or in the last few years. My point was that Baylor has and will continue to contribute to the BigXII, and was surely deserving of its spot among the Big XII.

The_Dude · 08-25-2003, 07:27 AM

well, the big 12 was founded in 1994.

baylor's last bowl game? 1994 Alamo Washington State L 3-10

baylor's conference win history
1922 Southwest Conference Champions
1924 Southwest Conference Champions
1974 Southwest Conference Champions
1980 Southwest Conference Champions
1994 Southwest Conference Co-Champions

i dont think they've come remotely close to winning the big 12.

as for their big 12 contributions, cbs sportsline says

Quote:

The athletic program brings nothing to the table in terms of NCAA Tournament units. There is no bowl revenue from this so-called football school. Instead, it continues to gladly cash the annual $8 million check from the league while humiliating it with recent developments. Who knows how long this institutional welfare will last now that the walls have crumbled around this noble campus.

What good, then, is Baylor to the Big 12 right now? The athletic department is in shambles and seems to be out of control. Football doesn't deserve to be in a BCS conference. You've got to question Stanton's decision to pay Morriss $1 million per year when he has been a head coach all of two years, never winning more than seven games.

You could ask Stanton, except he resigned too along with Bliss. Not only does it look like there was rampant cheating in basketball, the events add credibility to the complaints of Dennehy's family. The basketball coaches, they said, didn't take seriously threats Dennehy had reported earlier.

as for their self imposed ban on post season play, i dont think anyone except baseball will be making post season.

RoadRage · 08-25-2003, 08:46 PM

The scandal deepens?

http://www.sportsline.com/collegebas.../story/6591324

Baylor University president's future debated amid scandal

Aug. 25, 2003: SportsLine.com wire reports __

WACO, Texas -- To some, Baylor University President Robert Sloan is exactly the right person to lead the world's largest Baptist university through its recent crisis: the slaying of a basketball player, revelations of NCAA violations, a tape-recorded cover-up plot by a former coach.

He is, they say, a rock of faith and integrity.

But others say Sloan must be held responsible for the image-tarnishing events -- even if he had no knowledge of wrongdoing before it occurred -- and needs to go.

For his part, Sloan said he relies on prayer, family and friends to cope.

"What I have found is that God's grace really is deeper than the deepest trouble you go through," the 54-year-old Baptist preacher said in an interview with The Associated Press.

Baylor opened its fall semester Monday still reeling from the June slaying of basketball player Patrick Dennehy and the ensuing disclosure of secretly paid players, doctored drug tests and the alleged plot by ex-coach Dave Bliss.

Sloan supporters make their case by pointing to his speediness at putting the basketball program on probation and accepting the resignations of Bliss and athletic director Tom Stanton.

"Although some people may be against him, he knows that the Lord is watching over what he's doing and that he's guided -- it's not like he's making a lot of these decisions on his own," said student body president Jeff Leach, 21, of Plano. "He's praying about them and he's trying to do the right thing."

Computer science professor Henry Walbesser, however, contends that Sloan's faith is mockery.

"He makes himself out to be a pious person with Christian values, but he doesn't practice it," Walbesser said. "He has done so much damage to this institution in the name of Christian faith."

The faculty senate might take up a no-confidence vote on Sloan when it meets Sept. 9, and at least one major newspaper, the Houston Chronicle, has called for his resignation, saying he "failed dramatically" in his duty to ensure that Baylor ran an upright program.

Sloan, who has headed 14,000-student Baylor for eight years, said he doesn't let such talk distract him.

"I honestly do not worry about those kinds of things because what I believe is this: You don't solve any problem by running away from it. I'm committed to Baylor University. It's what I'm doing as a calling," he said.

Even before the recent turmoil, Sloan faced harsh criticism from some faculty leaders over his 10-year reform plan that calls for moving Baylor into the top tier of American universities while strengthening its Christian mission.

Chuck Weaver, the faculty senate's immediate past chairman, said Sloan has threatened Baylor's academic reputation by stressing religious beliefs over qualifications when hiring new faculty members. The neuroscience professor refers to the process as a "religious litmus test."

Sloan said he seeks professors who will not only tolerate but actively support Baylor's religious mission. At the same time, he denied imposing any creeds or religious oaths on those hired. Less than half of Baylor's nearly 800 faculty members are Baptists.

Most importantly, he said, Baylor must strive to hire people of character and faithfulness and hold them accountable.

"It's important for people to have accountability groups and to meet with friends and others," Sloan said. "Because as individuals, if we get isolated, it's possible for any of us to make serious moral errors and mistakes."

The_Dude · 08-25-2003, 09:21 PM

i got some good news.

the player that transfered from baylor to texas will NOT have to sit out a season due to eligibility rules of the big 12.

dy156 · 08-26-2003, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Baylor has been forthcoming throughout the investigation, and did the honorable thing by requesting and obtaining a special NCAA exemption allowing its scholarship athletes to transfer without having to sit out a year.

I told you Baylor had asked for this from the NCAA awhile back, and I presume Baylor asked the same thing on the BigXII council.

As for my feelings about Pres. Sloan, they are mixed. The criticism for his ten year plan has been brewing for a couple of years among a few Baylor alumni and faculty. I have a problem with some of the goals and think others are only obtainable at too high a cost or are otherwise unseasonable. While I disagree with some of his agenda, I applaud him for his bold initiative and leadership. I think "always sharpening a good axe" is a better leadership and mangagement philosophy than "if it aint broke don't fix it." I also think that he has taken unfair criticism for his running of the University that all stems from a terrible decision made by a young man who allegedly shot his friend and roommate. I doubt that anyone at the Houston Chronicle or Dallas Morning News would care about "Vision 2012" or President Sloan had it not been for the tragedy of one students death. I doubt very much that either President Sloan or any member of the faculty Senate had even heard the names Carlton Dotson or Patrick Dennehey prior to Patrick's disappearance early this summer, and it is unfortunate that the media, searching for a news story, want to get involved in what was essentially a family squabble about some organizational goals set out for Baylor. It is equally unfortunate that some "family members", seeking any advantage are using this tragedy to further the squabbling.

Baylor makes an easy target because it is unabashedly Christian, and worse -Baptist, one coach was out of control, and it's football team sucks. None of that can take away from the fact that it is a place that delivers a fine education, has a proud history, and, mark my words, will soon be competitive again in football!

The_Dude · 08-26-2003, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dy156
None of that can take away from the fact that it is a place that delivers a fine education, has a proud history, and, mark my words, will soon be competitive again in football!

i agree with those words except for the last phrase.

but, big 12 is an athletic conference, not academic or historic.

dy156 · 08-26-2003, 11:30 AM

Just thought ya'll might like to see this, from an article on ESPN.com
"[new Baylor basketball coach Scott]Drew sees the numbers stacked against him, and asked Sloan why he granted the Baylor players a free pass to transfer. "He told me that if his son played on the team and went through all of this, then as a father, he would want his son to be able to play right away."

I know that the Big XII is an athletic conference, and not based on academics or history, but maybe those who are calling for Baylor's ouster from that conference would do well to look at the history of other teams in that conference. When Jimmy Johnson took over the Cowboys and they went 1-15, another coach said something about how there are no Kansas State games in the NFL. This was said because at the time, and for years and years before, Kansas State was a terrible football team, and would get pounded by Oklahoma and Nebraska in the Big8. The same could be said of Colorado. Both of these schools are now extremely competitive, and it took strong coaches to turn those programs around. Baylor now has new coaches for Basketball and football, and we will soon have a new athletic director. All calls for Baylor's ouster are premature, at best, and more likely short-sighted and wrong.

daryl10 · 08-28-2003, 07:45 PM

Well said Dy156, The_Dude is looking through some burnt orange glasses. Grant Teaff was a good coach and a good person for the game. Unfortunately Baylor has not found a replacement that could equal his successes. When the SWC had it's problems, the only two schools that were not on some sort of probation were Baylor and Rice. Perhaps the reason they did not win more during this time period because they were playing by the rules. UT had it's issues after Fred Akers was fired. As an U of H alumn that could not watch a game on TV due to NCAA punishment for buying players used cars (we could not afford new ones like SMU), Baylor and Rice were the real beacons of the conference though their records may not always reflect that.

I believe that Morris will turn things around. He would have taken Kentucky to a bowl game if not for probation that forced out previous staff. If Morris can win at Kentucky in the SEC, I think he has a shot at Baylor. It will take time.

RoadRage · 09-06-2003, 08:40 PM

North Texas 52, Baylor 14

Quoting myself from an earlier post in this thread:

Quote:

The Mean Green at least cares enough to field a legitmate football team, quite unlike Baylor.

A lot of Baylor's attendence increase is from visiting teams coming to Waco to watch the carnage. The Baylor-OU game last year was in Waco, but there was so much red in the stands that it was almost another home game for OU. Expect much orange when Texas and Oklahoma State visit this year.

The_Dude · 09-06-2003, 09:51 PM

you should've seen the spread for the game.

a big xii team as an underdog to a sunbelt (or whatever conf UNT is in) is truely sad. i think that even kansas could've beaten UNT.

Hrothgar · 09-07-2003, 01:29 PM

I respect the Baylor football program. The biggest joke in the Big 12 is not Baylor but the pussy "football" team at Kansas State. Kick them out of the conference for not having any balls will you?
K State must get hard ons beating up on Div. 2 opponents.
F.Y.I. Kansas State the BCS thinks your a pussy too.

dy156 · 09-08-2003, 07:39 AM

Baylor's performance was hard to stomach this weekend, especially since I work with a guy who used to be UNT's quarterback.

I might should not have gotten my hopes up just yet, considering the mess Kevin Steele left the program in. However, I like hopefully many others, will try to have patience with coach Morriss, considering the following perfomances of other highly respected football coaches:

Grant Teaff
1972 5-6
1973 2-9
1974 8-4 [Cotton Bowl]

Bill Snyder:
1989 1-10
1990 5-6
1991 7-4
1992 5-6
1993 9-2-1 [insight.com bowl]
(I know KState should be criticized for their schedule, but a program was still turned around, and they have won games against big opponents, too.)

Mack Brown at UNC:
1988 1-10
1989 1-10
1990 6-4-1
1991 7-4
1992 8-3 [Peach Bowl]

Dan McCarney
1995 3-8
1996 2-9
1997 1-10
1998 3-8
1999 4-7
2000 9-3 [Insight.com Bowl]

I bet the basketball coach will need some patience this year too.

tj2001cobra · 09-10-2003, 06:26 PM

Ugh.. The_Dude.. You are making me sick to my stomach! I am not sure why everyone in Austin has it out for Baylor. Actually, people in Austin (I am generalizing here) tend to be very narrow-minded when it comes to other teams. I live here so I have to live with it every day. I am not a UT fan, btw. It is funny. though, because I see UT fans being the biggest "fairweather" fans of any other place I have been to.

When UT is winning, this town goes crazy. When they aren't, UT gets very little support. Oh well. I am used to it. I have been here a while.

About Baylor: I lived in Waco for 18 years. I supported them because I lived there. I am not an alumni or huge Baylor fan, but they were fun to watch. The misconception is that they aren't good at anything. Baylor fans are constantly having to try to "prove" their worthiness. It tends to get old. Baylor has a great track team. They are good at golf and they are even good at baseball. They are competitive in EVERY single sport except for football and basketball. They were actually doing better in basketball, too, until all of this crap happened. For you to say that they are worthless is narrow-minded and short-sighted. The Cowboys have sucked for the last 7-8 years. Should we kick them out of the NFL? I think it is great how a school as small as Baylor can comete with UT and Nebraska in most sports. I will find a stat for you and post it up regarding their "worthiness" in big 12 sports. I am sure you will be shocked.

As for Bliss, it isn't Baylor's fault what he did. In fact, if dumbass Dotson wouldn't have killed someone, none of this would be happening right now. Bliss was a respected coach from SMU, who had a good basketball program. Don't blame Baylor for his mistakes.

Let me let you in on a little secret. UT is not God. They will choke, like they always do in football, this year. Mark my words on that.

tj2001cobra · 09-10-2003, 06:38 PM

Ok, here it is...

Link -- http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/...mpionships.pdf

Big 12 championships, 1996-2003 (Men and Women)

Baylor - 7
colorado - 14
Iowa State - 4
Kansas - 6
Kansas State - 3
Missouri - 1
Nebraska - 36
Oklahoma - 11
Oklahoma State - 12
Texas - 44
Texas A&M - 9
Texas Tech - 4

Who should we kick out?

Edit: Fixed link

The_Dude · 09-10-2003, 07:31 PM

yes, the "baylor should get out" attitude is widespread here.

http://www.dailytexanonline.com/news/461145.html

Quote:

It was reported the other day that three former chairmen of Baylor's Board of Regents suggested university president Robert Sloan should step down. In lieu of the Patrick Dennehy/Dave Bliss scandal, it was suggested that Sloan no longer has the credibility, nor the acceptance of the community, to represent the school in a positive manner.

Another child born of this atypical and contemptible situation is the question of whether or not Baylor is fit for big time college athletics and inclusion in the Big 12 Conference.

The answer should have been given without the scandal serving as a shameful catalyst. There are too many other pressing issues in the community to be concerned with before addressing the issue of conference membership. But now, with a potential shakeup looming in the highest office on campus, it seems only fitting that Baylor's role in university competition be reviewed, if not overhauled.

This is far from the first time that the issue of conference withdrawal has been raised in Waco, nor will it be the last. Three university presidents are already on record saying that they will not pursue such procedures, effectively removing the possibility of forced withdrawal from the table. In the Big 12, a "supermajority" of nine universities is needed to evict any school. If it is going to happen, it has to emanate from the athletic director's office - in Waco.

Some will argue, and it's a hard message to silence, that Baylor would be crazy to leave the recognition and stature of the Big 12, let alone the lucrative financial package that accompanies membership in such a conference.

But sooner or later, the school has to decide if the money is worth the embarrassment and negative attention of another seven- or eight-loss conference campaign. There is already enough negative attention to last a lifetime.

If this were something unexpected - if Baylor were supposed to be competitive - there would undoubtedly be less fuss to remove the program from the conference. But the numbers are too staggering to ignore. Since the dawn of the Big 12 in 1996, Baylor is 4-54 in conference play. Last season's 35-32 win against Kansas was the only win in four years.

Why not fret over Kansas and their inability to compete with the rest of the region?

Simple. There are two major "revenue" sports in the college game: football and basketball. Kansas, if you've been paying attention, has a pretty decent hoops team. Baylor has rendered theirs useless.

If the school does the right thing and pulls out so that the other universities - all of which are massive state schools that are better equipped to participate in a super-conference - don't have to resort to the unenviable position of asking one of their peers to step aside, then the Big 12 will have to decide on a feasible replacement.

If it wants to take the best team from its prospective pool of candidates, it should take Colorado State. Currently on par with two-time defending Big 12 North champion Colorado, the Rams already are superior to Kansas and Iowa State, could certainly hang with Nebraska and give Kansas State a heap of trouble.

The move may not be popular to those who look at the annual Baylor game as an automatic win and tuneup heading into bowl season. But Baylor belongs in a conference where it has a purpose beyond baseball and tennis, where they are very good. What the school needs now is seclusion. In the glare of the Big 12 spotlight, they will find none.

as the article mentions, the big $$ revenues come from basketball and football, both of at which baylor sucks. (and it's not like they were good).

baylor contributes almost nothing to the earn revenue for the conference in these sports, but mooch off the rest of the teams.

baylor is a small private school of < 15k. i just dont see how they can hang on par with a school like UT with an attendance of 50k+.

tj2001cobra · 09-11-2003, 05:25 AM

Like I said before, typical of Austin. Kind of comical, though. I dont think I am going to take any article in the Daily Texan too seriously. Talk about liberal press.

RoadRage · 09-11-2003, 09:57 AM

I don't remember anyone from the University of Kansas or the University of Missouri or even the Dallas Cowboys murdering a fellow player and then the coach advocating a cover-up.

The three presidents against Baylor's expulsion may change their minds after the joke Baylor will have to put on the court in the upcoming basketball season.

And the hits just keep on coming …

Quote:

WACO, Texas -- The Baylor faculty senate passed a "no confidence" motion Tuesday for embattled President Robert Sloan.

A group billing itself as "Friends of Baylor" countered the senate's action - academia's severest form of criticism -- by announcing it has raised $300,000 for a public relations campaign to defend Sloan and the scandal-ridden university.

The opposing messages came amid mounting pressure from some circles for Sloan, who has headed the world's largest Baptist university for eight years, to step down.

The 26-6 vote of no confidence came after the faculty senate met for more than three hours.

Joe Cox, the faculty senate chairman, said the motion cites the "deeply polarized and relationally paralyzed Baylor community" under Sloan's presidency.

The senate, which has no actual authority over Sloan's employment, will forward its recommendation for his ouster to Baylor's 36-member board of regents, which opens a two-day meeting Thursday.

In recent days, five of Baylor's 36 regents and three former regent chairmen have called for Sloan's resignation.

Baylor is reeling from the fatal shooting of basketball player Patrick Dennehy, the arrest of former player Carlton Dotson on a murder charge, and revelations of serious NCAA rules violations in the basketball program.

Last month, Sloan accepted the resignations of coach Dave Bliss and athletic director Tom Stanton and put the program on voluntary probation.

Friends of Baylor, founded less than two weeks ago, issued a statement saying it has "recruited a heavy hitting committee of Baylor alumni and supporters from across Texas" to support its campaign.

U.S. Rep. Max Sandlin, D-Texas, a Friends of Baylor steering committee member, said the group "is not just a pep squad -- we are a group of highly active, highly motivated Baylor alumni and students who are committed to supporting Baylor and its current leadership."

A few hundred yards from the building where the faculty senate met, about 200 students gathered at a special prayer service, asking for peace of mind and strength for Sloan. In a grassy area outside the student union, supporters surrounded Sloan, placed their hands on his shoulders and prayed.

Student senate president Jeff Leach said Sloan maintains support from most of Baylor's 14,000 students.

"No one's perfect, but President Sloan has done some amazing and historic things here," the junior said Tuesday.

Even before the basketball scandal, Sloan faced harsh criticism from some faculty leaders and regents over "Baylor 2012," his 10-year plan to make the school a top-tier research university while strengthening its Christian mission.

Sloan said Monday he remains committed to Baylor.

"You don't deal with problems by running away from them," he said.

AP NEWS
The Associated Press News Service

Copyright 2003, The Associated Press, All Rights Reserved

The_Dude · 09-11-2003, 12:21 PM

and........baylor has been ranked as one of the worst campus's by sports illustrated.

just to note, UT was 3rd best

tj2001cobra · 09-12-2003, 07:06 AM

Do remember the cocaine, the guys fucking under-aged girls, the prostitues, the other drugs, the car wrecks, and everything else about the Cowboys?

I could care less about Baylor as a school. I didn't go there and I dont have any loyalty to them. I am just sick of people slamming them all of the time. They are a good school and are getting the raw end of the deal because of something that 2 people did.

Why are people not more pissed at the source, Dotson? No one seems to care that he killed someone. All everyone is worried about is Dave Bliss and Robert Sloan. The media fucks everything up.

Quote:

Originally posted by RoadRage
I don't remember anyone from the University of Kansas or the University of Missouri or even the Dallas Cowboys murdering a fellow player and then the coach advocating a cover-up.

The three presidents against Baylor's expulsion may change their minds after the joke Baylor will have to put on the court in the upcoming basketball season.

And the hits just keep on coming …

tj2001cobra · 09-12-2003, 07:09 AM

How in the hell did UT get rated a good campus? It is in the middle of downtown, there is nowhere to park. There are homeless people and freaks living all over it. It is cram-packed, there is no room anywhere. There is something built on every square inch of land available. I went to school there. So I am allowed to have an opinion.

What was the criteria? concrete per sq/inch?

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
and........baylor has been ranked as one of the worst campus's by sports illustrated.

just to note, UT was 3rd best

The_Dude · 09-12-2003, 10:51 AM

Ok, here is what they said

Quote:

3. Austin, Texas
UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS
If the university was located in, say, Abilene or Galveston, the city could still survive on pure originality and its status as the state capital. But Austin and UT go hand in hand. The vibe given off by students meshes with the liberal attitudes of many residents. A popular bumper sticker implores keep austin weird. DEAN'S LIST: Football is a religion in the state of Texas, but the university is good at everything, as befits a school that Sports Illustrated last year ranked as having the country's best Division I athletic program. THE SPOT: Sixth Street, one of the most famous streets in the world and home to more bars than one could physically get through in any given night. REQUIRED COURSE: The South by Southwest Music and Media Conference, which takes over the city each March, is the showcase for up-and-coming bands. Established acts also polish their chops at the festival. EXTRA CREDIT: Though known for its incredible live-music scene, Austin -- which has more movie screens per capita than any city in the U.S. and nearly 80 production companies -- is a Hollywood incubator too. Actors Matthew McConaughey, Renee Zellweger and Owen Wilson are UT grads, as are directors Joel Coen and Robert Rodriguez. Actress Sandra Bullock and writer-director Mike Judge live nearby. Richard Linklater's seminal Slacker and Judge's cult favorite Office Space were shot in town. IF AUSTIN WERE A CELEBRITY IT WOULD BE...Chris Rock -- a little loud, a little outrageous and popular with every clique.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...916/index.html

they listed the worst towns under a header and baylor was one of them.
as for baylor,

Quote:

Waco, Texas (Baylor University), is wacko

This part only appears in the paper edition.

RoadRage · 09-13-2003, 12:26 AM

Dotson will be executed for his part unless he plea-bargains to life without parole. After all, it is TEXAS. Any DA that lets him plea-bargain to less than that needs to be lynched.

dy156 · 08-30-2004, 05:43 AM

Just an update:
Since this thread was being hotly debated, Baylor athletics has had quite a bit of success. Nationally ranked baseball team, women's basketball team that was robbed by a mysterious clock that kept going in the late rounds of the NCAA tournament, a national championship in Tennis, and great success in track and field, including several national championships and, of course, three Olympic gold medals.

And Dotson is in a jail cell in the McLennan County Jail awaiting trial.

08-16-2003, 11:36 PM	#2 (permalink)
BigGov WoW or Class... Location: UWW	Baylor out, Notre Dame in, hmm...That sounds like a good deal. If only Notre Dame would go. __________________ One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

08-17-2003, 06:10 AM	#3 (permalink)
dtheriault Psycho Location: maybe utah	can you imagine how upset the parents are. you find out not only is your kid dead, but the coach knew that another kid had been threatening him and was hiding it to save his rep. AND... that same coach makes up a lie about your dead son being a drug dealer to further save his.....rep. i hope he does some jail time. (the coach) __________________ "Remember, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen." -Homer Unless you are the freakin Highlander, what is the point in learning how to fight with a sword?

08-17-2003, 10:55 AM	#6 (permalink)
RoadRage Stay off the sidewalk! Location: Oklahoma City, OK	Baylor should never have been in the Big XII in the first place. A big fuck you goes out to former Texas governor Ann Richards for arm-twisting Texas, Texas A&M, and Texas Tech into making the BIg XII take Baylor in as well. Who should replace Baylor? The three best candidates are Arkansas, Texas Christian, and Colorado State. TCU and Colorado State are non-BCS schools who would kill for the chance to jump up. Both are perennial contenders in their respective conferences in all sports and would have immediate rivalries in the Big XII. Arkansas is in a BCS conference with whom they don't fit well geographically and whose alumni would love resuming old rivalries with the other Big XII South schools. Arkansas is closer to all other Big XII schools than it is to Knoxville, Athens, Gainesville, or Columbia. For Arkansas to jump conferences, it would require some skilled negotiation with the SEC and probably require the entry of either Southern Mississippi or Louisville (the two leading contenders IMHO) into the SEC as well. To get Colorado State or TCU would simply require a written invitation. __________________ Join TFP Team SETI 43K workunits complete, 34 members, more of each needed.

08-17-2003, 12:36 PM	#9 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	colorado state would be the best choice. TCU is a private school and may end up just like baylor. iowa is a good candidate since big 12 already has a member in iowa (the state). LSU could also be considered. but, it would take 9 votes to kick baylor out........which is pretty hard to get. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

08-17-2003, 02:06 PM	#11 (permalink)
BigGov WoW or Class... Location: UWW	He could be charged with obstruction and such. Little charges can add up quickly. It also helps that he'll never get a job from a respected university again. __________________ One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

08-17-2003, 07:35 AM	#4 (permalink)
fearofmear Insane Location: Florida	Every major conference needs a team like Baylor to beat up on. That is Baylor for the Big 12 or Vanderbilt for the SEC. Although I will agree, Baylor should go if the allegations are true.

08-17-2003, 09:39 AM	#5 (permalink)
Empty_One Addict Location: Milwaukee, WI	I think someone needs to kick the living crap out of that coach. Then, arrest his lying, cheating ass.

08-17-2003, 11:22 AM	#7 (permalink)
CrazyIntent Tilted	Dave Bliss is true scum.

08-17-2003, 11:57 AM	#8 (permalink)
Splice Crazy	Cover ups came by bit him in the ass!

08-17-2003, 12:59 PM	#10 (permalink)
gov135 Junkie Location: Midwest	Bliss is scum. I'm not sure if he did anything criminal, however. He lied, misrepresented, used his authority poorly, etc. He should have paid more attention to the kid. But Dotson shot Dennehey, not Bliss. The Dennehey family probably hoped their son was in more competent hands than they came to find out. But these players are adults, coaches are not responsible for parenting their players, and Dotson is ultimately responsible for the tragedy, not Bliss.

08-25-2003, 06:33 AM	#17 (permalink)
dy156 cookie Location: in the backwoods	I don't know the last network televised game, but the last one I specifically remember was the game against Texas in '97, a close game in Waco, and we won. Last Bowl game was in '94 or '95 I think. Yes, it was almost a decade ago, but I never said we were good at football now or in the last few years. My point was that Baylor has and will continue to contribute to the BigXII, and was surely deserving of its spot among the Big XII.

08-25-2003, 08:46 PM	#19 (permalink)
RoadRage Stay off the sidewalk! Location: Oklahoma City, OK	The scandal deepens? http://www.sportsline.com/collegebas.../story/6591324 Baylor University president's future debated amid scandal Aug. 25, 2003: SportsLine.com wire reports __ WACO, Texas -- To some, Baylor University President Robert Sloan is exactly the right person to lead the world's largest Baptist university through its recent crisis: the slaying of a basketball player, revelations of NCAA violations, a tape-recorded cover-up plot by a former coach. He is, they say, a rock of faith and integrity. But others say Sloan must be held responsible for the image-tarnishing events -- even if he had no knowledge of wrongdoing before it occurred -- and needs to go. For his part, Sloan said he relies on prayer, family and friends to cope. "What I have found is that God's grace really is deeper than the deepest trouble you go through," the 54-year-old Baptist preacher said in an interview with The Associated Press. Baylor opened its fall semester Monday still reeling from the June slaying of basketball player Patrick Dennehy and the ensuing disclosure of secretly paid players, doctored drug tests and the alleged plot by ex-coach Dave Bliss. Sloan supporters make their case by pointing to his speediness at putting the basketball program on probation and accepting the resignations of Bliss and athletic director Tom Stanton. "Although some people may be against him, he knows that the Lord is watching over what he's doing and that he's guided -- it's not like he's making a lot of these decisions on his own," said student body president Jeff Leach, 21, of Plano. "He's praying about them and he's trying to do the right thing." Computer science professor Henry Walbesser, however, contends that Sloan's faith is mockery. "He makes himself out to be a pious person with Christian values, but he doesn't practice it," Walbesser said. "He has done so much damage to this institution in the name of Christian faith." The faculty senate might take up a no-confidence vote on Sloan when it meets Sept. 9, and at least one major newspaper, the Houston Chronicle, has called for his resignation, saying he "failed dramatically" in his duty to ensure that Baylor ran an upright program. Sloan, who has headed 14,000-student Baylor for eight years, said he doesn't let such talk distract him. "I honestly do not worry about those kinds of things because what I believe is this: You don't solve any problem by running away from it. I'm committed to Baylor University. It's what I'm doing as a calling," he said. Even before the recent turmoil, Sloan faced harsh criticism from some faculty leaders over his 10-year reform plan that calls for moving Baylor into the top tier of American universities while strengthening its Christian mission. Chuck Weaver, the faculty senate's immediate past chairman, said Sloan has threatened Baylor's academic reputation by stressing religious beliefs over qualifications when hiring new faculty members. The neuroscience professor refers to the process as a "religious litmus test." Sloan said he seeks professors who will not only tolerate but actively support Baylor's religious mission. At the same time, he denied imposing any creeds or religious oaths on those hired. Less than half of Baylor's nearly 800 faculty members are Baptists. Most importantly, he said, Baylor must strive to hire people of character and faithfulness and hold them accountable. "It's important for people to have accountability groups and to meet with friends and others," Sloan said. "Because as individuals, if we get isolated, it's possible for any of us to make serious moral errors and mistakes." __________________ Join TFP Team SETI 43K workunits complete, 34 members, more of each needed.

08-25-2003, 09:21 PM	#20 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	i got some good news. the player that transfered from baylor to texas will NOT have to sit out a season due to eligibility rules of the big 12. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

08-26-2003, 11:30 AM	#23 (permalink)
dy156 cookie Location: in the backwoods	Just thought ya'll might like to see this, from an article on ESPN.com "[new Baylor basketball coach Scott]Drew sees the numbers stacked against him, and asked Sloan why he granted the Baylor players a free pass to transfer. "He told me that if his son played on the team and went through all of this, then as a father, he would want his son to be able to play right away." I know that the Big XII is an athletic conference, and not based on academics or history, but maybe those who are calling for Baylor's ouster from that conference would do well to look at the history of other teams in that conference. When Jimmy Johnson took over the Cowboys and they went 1-15, another coach said something about how there are no Kansas State games in the NFL. This was said because at the time, and for years and years before, Kansas State was a terrible football team, and would get pounded by Oklahoma and Nebraska in the Big8. The same could be said of Colorado. Both of these schools are now extremely competitive, and it took strong coaches to turn those programs around. Baylor now has new coaches for Basketball and football, and we will soon have a new athletic director. All calls for Baylor's ouster are premature, at best, and more likely short-sighted and wrong.

08-28-2003, 07:45 PM	#24 (permalink)
daryl10 Upright	Well said Dy156, The_Dude is looking through some burnt orange glasses. Grant Teaff was a good coach and a good person for the game. Unfortunately Baylor has not found a replacement that could equal his successes. When the SWC had it's problems, the only two schools that were not on some sort of probation were Baylor and Rice. Perhaps the reason they did not win more during this time period because they were playing by the rules. UT had it's issues after Fred Akers was fired. As an U of H alumn that could not watch a game on TV due to NCAA punishment for buying players used cars (we could not afford new ones like SMU), Baylor and Rice were the real beacons of the conference though their records may not always reflect that. I believe that Morris will turn things around. He would have taken Kentucky to a bowl game if not for probation that forced out previous staff. If Morris can win at Kentucky in the SEC, I think he has a shot at Baylor. It will take time.

09-06-2003, 09:51 PM	#26 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	you should've seen the spread for the game. a big xii team as an underdog to a sunbelt (or whatever conf UNT is in) is truely sad. i think that even kansas could've beaten UNT. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

09-07-2003, 01:29 PM	#27 (permalink)
Hrothgar He's My Girl Location: The Champagne Douche	I respect the Baylor football program. The biggest joke in the Big 12 is not Baylor but the pussy "football" team at Kansas State. Kick them out of the conference for not having any balls will you? K State must get hard ons beating up on Div. 2 opponents. F.Y.I. Kansas State the BCS thinks your a pussy too. __________________ The fortunes of war favored Hrothgar.

09-08-2003, 07:39 AM	#28 (permalink)
dy156 cookie Location: in the backwoods	Baylor's performance was hard to stomach this weekend, especially since I work with a guy who used to be UNT's quarterback. I might should not have gotten my hopes up just yet, considering the mess Kevin Steele left the program in. However, I like hopefully many others, will try to have patience with coach Morriss, considering the following perfomances of other highly respected football coaches: Grant Teaff 1972 5-6 1973 2-9 1974 8-4 [Cotton Bowl] Bill Snyder: 1989 1-10 1990 5-6 1991 7-4 1992 5-6 1993 9-2-1 [insight.com bowl] (I know KState should be criticized for their schedule, but a program was still turned around, and they have won games against big opponents, too.) Mack Brown at UNC: 1988 1-10 1989 1-10 1990 6-4-1 1991 7-4 1992 8-3 [Peach Bowl] Dan McCarney 1995 3-8 1996 2-9 1997 1-10 1998 3-8 1999 4-7 2000 9-3 [Insight.com Bowl] I bet the basketball coach will need some patience this year too.

09-10-2003, 06:26 PM	#29 (permalink)
tj2001cobra Insane Location: Austin, Texas .. Y'all	Ugh.. The_Dude.. You are making me sick to my stomach! I am not sure why everyone in Austin has it out for Baylor. Actually, people in Austin (I am generalizing here) tend to be very narrow-minded when it comes to other teams. I live here so I have to live with it every day. I am not a UT fan, btw. It is funny. though, because I see UT fans being the biggest "fairweather" fans of any other place I have been to. When UT is winning, this town goes crazy. When they aren't, UT gets very little support. Oh well. I am used to it. I have been here a while. About Baylor: I lived in Waco for 18 years. I supported them because I lived there. I am not an alumni or huge Baylor fan, but they were fun to watch. The misconception is that they aren't good at anything. Baylor fans are constantly having to try to "prove" their worthiness. It tends to get old. Baylor has a great track team. They are good at golf and they are even good at baseball. They are competitive in EVERY single sport except for football and basketball. They were actually doing better in basketball, too, until all of this crap happened. For you to say that they are worthless is narrow-minded and short-sighted. The Cowboys have sucked for the last 7-8 years. Should we kick them out of the NFL? I think it is great how a school as small as Baylor can comete with UT and Nebraska in most sports. I will find a stat for you and post it up regarding their "worthiness" in big 12 sports. I am sure you will be shocked. As for Bliss, it isn't Baylor's fault what he did. In fact, if dumbass Dotson wouldn't have killed someone, none of this would be happening right now. Bliss was a respected coach from SMU, who had a good basketball program. Don't blame Baylor for his mistakes. Let me let you in on a little secret. UT is not God. They will choke, like they always do in football, this year. Mark my words on that.

09-10-2003, 06:38 PM	#30 (permalink)
tj2001cobra Insane Location: Austin, Texas .. Y'all	Ok, here it is... Link -- http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/...mpionships.pdf Big 12 championships, 1996-2003 (Men and Women) Baylor - 7 colorado - 14 Iowa State - 4 Kansas - 6 Kansas State - 3 Missouri - 1 Nebraska - 36 Oklahoma - 11 Oklahoma State - 12 Texas - 44 Texas A&M - 9 Texas Tech - 4 Who should we kick out? Edit: Fixed link Last edited by tj2001cobra; 09-10-2003 at 06:42 PM..

09-11-2003, 05:25 AM	#32 (permalink)
tj2001cobra Insane Location: Austin, Texas .. Y'all	Like I said before, typical of Austin. Kind of comical, though. I dont think I am going to take any article in the Daily Texan too seriously. Talk about liberal press.

09-11-2003, 12:21 PM	#34 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	and........baylor has been ranked as one of the worst campus's by sports illustrated. just to note, UT was 3rd best __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

09-13-2003, 12:26 AM	#38 (permalink)
RoadRage Stay off the sidewalk! Location: Oklahoma City, OK	Dotson will be executed for his part unless he plea-bargains to life without parole. After all, it is TEXAS. Any DA that lets him plea-bargain to less than that needs to be lynched. __________________ Join TFP Team SETI 43K workunits complete, 34 members, more of each needed.

08-30-2004, 05:43 AM	#39 (permalink)
dy156 cookie Location: in the backwoods	Just an update: Since this thread was being hotly debated, Baylor athletics has had quite a bit of success. Nationally ranked baseball team, women's basketball team that was robbed by a mysterious clock that kept going in the late rounds of the NCAA tournament, a national championship in Tennis, and great success in track and field, including several national championships and, of course, three Olympic gold medals. And Dotson is in a jail cell in the McLennan County Jail awaiting trial.