Baseball '07 - Page 4 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Kadath · 06-07-2007, 04:49 AM

How is that a legitimate link, kutulu?

kutulu · 06-07-2007, 08:03 AM

It was working yesterday if you copied and pasted it. It can be found here, third vid link down

Kadath · 06-07-2007, 09:26 AM

My bad. It's that MLB shitty shit shit player doesn't like my Firefox. I got it to work in IE. That is an amazing play.

QuasiMondo · 06-11-2007, 09:54 PM

Some will ask, "Is it too early for a Mets fan to panic?"

My answer: It's never too early for a Mets fan to panic.

Destrox · 06-12-2007, 03:09 AM

Heh, thats the life of an Indian as well.

Its a panic race all the way to the end.

Ilow · 06-12-2007, 04:51 AM

same as a red sox fan too. i guess we're in a fortunate position if you think about it, do you think that tampa bay, kansas city etc, ever panic?

QuasiMondo · 06-12-2007, 08:13 AM

I think Kansas City has abandoned all hope. Go Chiefs?

spongy · 06-17-2007, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

The Red Sox have 4 players on their active roster that developed in their farm system: Papelbon, Veritek, Pedoria, and Youkilis.

As a long time mariner's fan, i would like to point out that Varitek was NOT a Sox
farm hand, he was a Mariner that was traded for Heath Slocum (if memory serves), but he was definitely a Mariner. I still think the GM of the M's that year deserves a World Series ring.

kutulu · 06-17-2007, 11:57 PM

1150 ABs in the M's farm system doesn't make him a Mariner. And really, if we are going to send rings to stupid GM's that undervalue their players Joe Garagiola, Jr. is in front of the line for a 2004 Boston ring for his trade of Schilling for Fossum and Lyon.

dylanmarsh · 06-18-2007, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

1150 ABs in the M's farm system doesn't make him a Mariner. And really, if we are going to send rings to stupid GM's that undervalue their players Joe Garagiola, Jr. is in front of the line for a 2004 Boston ring for his trade of Schilling for Fossum and Lyon.

Schilling wanted out of Arizona and it was either let him play out the contract or cut your losses get what you can. People forget that RJ and Schill were constantly butting heads, trying to determine who was the alpha-dog of the clubhouse. Schilling opted out to further his legacy in Boston and succeeded. For all intents and purposes, the Dbacks were forced to deal with Boston because of Schilling, not Joe Jr.

Besides, at the time, the Sox gave up a ton of talent to get Schilling. Jorge de la Rosa is making strides to becoming what the Sox and Dbacks thought he'd be. Of course, he's in a Royals' uniform, now. And, I might add, he was a part of the Richie Sexson trade. The Sexson deal nearly killed the franchise; Joe Jr. can take that one on the chin.

spongy · 06-18-2007, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

1150 ABs in the M's farm system doesn't make him a Mariner. And really, if we are going to send rings to stupid GM's that undervalue their players Joe Garagiola, Jr. is in front of the line for a 2004 Boston ring for his trade of Schilling for Fossum and Lyon.

No, but 1150 ABs for the M's makes him a player the Sox traded for not developed, that was my point.

kutulu · 06-19-2007, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dylanmarsh

Schilling wanted out of Arizona and it was either let him play out the contract or cut your losses get what you can. People forget that RJ and Schill were constantly butting heads, trying to determine who was the alpha-dog of the clubhouse. Schilling opted out to further his legacy in Boston and succeeded. For all intents and purposes, the Dbacks were forced to deal with Boston because of Schilling, not Joe Jr.

Besides, at the time, the Sox gave up a ton of talent to get Schilling. Jorge de la Rosa is making strides to becoming what the Sox and Dbacks thought he'd be. Of course, he's in a Royals' uniform, now. And, I might add, he was a part of the Richie Sexson trade. The Sexson deal nearly killed the franchise; Joe Jr. can take that one on the chin.

Sorry but I totally disagree with that. The DBacks had all of the power in that situation and allowed themselves to get minimal value for one of the best starting pitchers available at the time. Boston bent over AZ on that trade and Joe Jr. thanked them for it. The talent they gave up was minimal as best. Quantity does not equal quality.

guy44 · 06-25-2007, 08:20 PM

Kadath, MLB's video player completely works in Firefox. I use it all the time.

That was a great play by Lyon. As a longtime Cubs fan, it was also great to hear Gracie with the call.

Mister Coaster · 06-29-2007, 08:55 PM

Angels v Baltimore... what a game... Sorry O's fans.

Kadath · 07-02-2007, 12:45 PM

Just wanted to mention that the Indians are making me happy right now. Won 4 in a row, 7-3 for their last 10. They have the third best record in baseball and the best home record of anyone. I'd still like them to have more solid pitching, but they're in great shape. If they can just keep it up...

Ilow · 07-02-2007, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadath

Just wanted to mention that the Indians are making me happy right now. Won 4 in a row, 7-3 for their last 10. They have the third best record in baseball and the best home record of anyone. I'd still like them to have more solid pitching, but they're in great shape. If they can just keep it up...

The Indians are a fun team and are playing well. They do have the misfortune of having the Twins (who always heat up in the second half) and Tigers, who are playing good ball and pitching well. AL Central is brutal this season.

The_Jazz · 07-03-2007, 05:11 AM

Hmm, Cubs have won 9/10 (10/11 actually) and are over .500. They're still 6 1/2 back of the Brewers, but they're playing Washington and Pittsburgh this week.

Hey, anyone want to watch me get my hopes up just to get kicked in the balls again?

At least I can feel good that the White Sox are about to start the fire sale.

bazkitcase5 · 07-03-2007, 10:07 AM

haha, yea, the cubs will find a way to lose to the people their supposed to beat this week (I like the cubs too unfortunately)

altho I must admit, the Lou tirade that led to suspensions seems to have worked after all

Mister Coaster · 07-10-2007, 07:58 AM

My boy Big Daddy Vladdy tearin' it up in the Home Run Derby. Way to hammer that rock. I know it's all meaningless, but it fun to watch guys crushin' em out. Especially Vlad's 503' smackaroo, woof.

goddfather40 · 07-10-2007, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

My boy Big Daddy Vladdy tearin' it up in the Home Run Derby. Way to hammer that rock. I know it's all meaningless, but it fun to watch guys crushin' em out. Especially Vlad's 503' smackaroo, woof.

Now Vladdy needs to carry some momentum and start a hot streak, he's been a little cold the last couple weeks.

Mister Coaster · 07-11-2007, 05:17 AM

^ Agreed. With "only" 14 homers at the break, I think the odds are he's really going to start hittin' em out. Kind of like Figgins' run after his dismal .111 start this year.

MontanaXVI · 07-19-2007, 01:32 AM

I'm not gone, just lurking and holding out hope that the hard luck A's can do something.

Mister Coaster · 07-20-2007, 05:00 PM

I have to admit, I'm not TOO surprised at The A's struggles. They had a brilliant pitching staff not long ago and traded them all away. Seattle, on the other hand, who lit a fire under their collective asses?

kutulu · 08-02-2007, 11:47 AM

Damn, this season has been such a roller coaster for me. The DBacks are finally back in first and they just called up Justin Upton. I'm excited but not expecting to stay in first place for a long time.

The team is so damn inconsistent. They have had at least 3 streaks of 7 wins but then they fall off a cliff for the next few.

Glory's Sun · 08-02-2007, 12:11 PM

Well the Trade Deadline was pretty disappointing and I'm shocked at some of the teams that didn't make a move.. especially Cleveland.

I'm not sure how I feel about the Gange trade just yet, I know it should help in the long run but I guess we'll have to see how he handles a big market.

I'm also hoping that the Bo'Sox don't get Jermaine Dye. I just don't see him fitting in with the club that well. Speculation has Santana coming over from the Twins possibly next year.. man that would be awesome.

I'm pretty surprised at the D-backs this season. I thought they would have gone and got a big big bat but with the mostly crap that was out there I can't really blame them.

kutulu · 08-02-2007, 02:53 PM

Yes, Boston is a larger stage than LA but LA is not small market by any means. The Red Sox are some lucky mfers to have Gagne as a setup guy. This effectively reduces a game against them to 7 innings. Definite favorites to win in all now (as if there was much doubt before).

As for position players, the DBacks are still committed to their young bats (although bringing up Upton rather than a AAA OF to fill in signals that they have had it with Carlos Quentin for the year). They recently fired the hitting coach and that prompted them to go 11-6 since the break. They needed starting pitching more than anything.

Overall, they have gotten by all year on luck and a great bullpen. Those guys are going to break down if the starters not named Webb and Davis continue to shit all over the place.

Glory's Sun · 08-02-2007, 04:44 PM

My concern with the Gagne trade is basically a health concern. He's done well this year staying healthy, but after seeing J.D. Drew do pretty much nothing all year, and the issues we've had with Coco Crisp and injuries.. the last thing I want as a fan is another overpayed DL player.

I was really surprised the Sox got rid of Gabbard, he was doing awesome. Now I know you have to give up something to get something and at least we didn't give up the phenom's (Clay Buchholz, Jacoby Ellsbury, and Justin Masterson) but I would have loved to see Gabbard stay in the mix even at Pawtucket in order for a 2008 rotation somewhere along the lines of Beckett, Matsusaka, Lester, Gabbard and Santana.. of course that means getting rid of Curt and Wakefield but they are getting old.. you can't rely on old arms but for so long.

Then the other issue is who in the world wants to buy Willy Mo?? Send him to the Red's? For what? There's nothing much there and the chi'sox aren't going to go one for one with Willy Mo and Dye.

There's so much more that could change this year even on waivers, so it's going to continue to be an interesting year.

kutulu · 08-03-2007, 08:37 AM

I wouldn't worry about his health. He's only a 2 month rental. Boston is on the hook for 2.1M of his performance bonuses (they were guaranteed as a condition of waiving the NTC) and about 2M in salary. Therefore, they will pay about $4M for 2 months. That is a lot, especially considering he'll get less than 30 innings but Boston can afford it.

Teams can pick up spare parts on waivers but they aren't going to get anyone that can make much of a difference.

djtestudo · 08-04-2007, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

I have to admit, I'm not TOO surprised at The A's struggles. They had a brilliant pitching staff not long ago and traded them all away. Seattle, on the other hand, who lit a fire under their collective asses?

You mean Barry Zito (ungodly contract, 5.12 ERA in National League in great pitcher's park), Mark Mulder (7.14 ERA before injury last year, and hasn't been seen since), and Tim Hudson (the only one even pitching well)?

Mister Coaster · 08-05-2007, 04:45 AM

Yeah them, a pitching staff isn't just about ERA. Its about too many things to list, and the A's had pitchers that did it, now they dont. Answer me this, is their pitching staff better now or was it better in 2006? Quote all the ERA stats you want, it's the W-L record that counts.

Edit: I meant the A's in 2006, not 2005.

kutulu · 08-06-2007, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

Quote all the ERA stats you want, it's the W-L record that counts.

Russ Ortiz would like a minute of your time. He led MLB with 164 wins from 1999 - 2004 and he had just barely better than a league average ERA.

The biggest fallacy in all of sports: the idea that it is the W-L record that should be celebrated over the ERA. The pitcher has control over 3 the three true outcomes (TTO): K's, BB, and HR. Everything else is left up to the defense. Sure, they can throw pitches that induce groundballs or weak popupts but they can only control so much of that.

Here is a nice article from Stark:

Quote:

How often have you heard this question asked this season:

What's wrong with Johan Santana?

Uh, how about nothing?

Yeah, his win-loss record is "only" 7-6. Yeah, that's exactly the same record as Miguel Batista. Yeah, that's as many wins as Adam Eaton. But what we have here, friends, is another classic case of how numbers deceive us.

Johan Santana has won two AL Cy Young Awards -- in 2004 and last season.
Well, some numbers.

But especially these numbers -- wins and losses.

Why are we still looking at wins and losses first when we talk about starting pitchers? Don't we live these days in a more enlightened age than that?

In a world that now allows us to evaluate pitchers with so much more revealing information, why are we still hung up on the same numbers that defined pitchers in 1912?

"It all comes down to 120 years of thinking of the pitcher as the guy who wins the game," says Baseball Prospectus' always-incisive Joe Sheehan. "With the advent of bullpens and the higher offensive levels, the fact is that pitchers are more reliant on their offense to score than they used to be. ... So a pitcher's wins just don't correlate as a reliable indicator of pitcher performance the way they used to 80 or 100 years ago."

We couldn't agree more. And we have lots of ideal test cases this year to prove our point, too. So let's take a look at five pitchers whose (W-L) numbers are deceiving:

Johan Santana
Yeah, Santana is really having a crummy year, all right. He's second in the league in strikeouts, third in strikeout ratio, fourth in ERA and fifth in opponent batting average and on-base percentage.

His ERA (2.91) is a run lower than Jeremy Bonderman's (7-0, 3.92). And Santana beats Josh Beckett (10-1) in ERA, strikeout ratio, WHIP and opponent average. So how come The Great Johan is "only" 7-6? Well, the Twins have scored two runs or fewer while he was in the game eight times already. And that has translated to six quality starts that didn't add any "W's" to his record.

So this guy is having a "down" year only if you compare him to himself, not the rest of the pitching species. And we're not even sure if it's safe to say that. His ERA and strikeout rate are almost identical to where they were a year ago after 15 starts. And his opponent average after 15 starts (.218) is the lowest of his career at this stage.

"His velocity is down a little," says one scout. "He used to pitch at 93-94. Now he's more like 90-91. And he has had some trouble keeping his changeup down, which is why he's given up more home runs (14 already). But he's still the best pitcher in the league."

Matt Cain
Here's the question we should be asking about Matt Cain: Is he the best 2-7 pitcher in history? Hey, he just might be, as a matter of fact.

We couldn't find a single pitcher in the expansion era who had an ERA as good as Cain's (3.15), or a hits-per-nine-IP rate as good as Cain's (7.02 per nine IP) who wound up a season with a winning percentage as lousy as his is now (.222). But even 2-7 doesn't do justice to how crummy the Giants have played behind him. Their record when he starts is an incomprehensible 2-12.

So how do we explain this? Just about every way possible. He has lost two 1-0 games and a 2-0 game. The bullpen has blown three saves for him. And the offense has scored two runs or fewer in nine of his starts. It's been so ugly that he has allowed three hits or fewer five times -- and won one of them.

"To me, he's a lot like Justin Verlander," says one scout. "It's easy to think he could throw multiple no-hitters. That's how good his stuff is. And he's 2-7. Now that doesn't make a whole lot of sense."

Gil Meche
There are probably people out there looking at Gil Meche's 4-6 record in Kansas City and saying, "I told you so." But if those are the only numbers you're perusing, you're hereby assigned to go back and reread the first 11 paragraphs of this column.

Meche has had the third-worst run support in the American League. But let's break down that support (or lack thereof) another way. You've heard of quality starts, right? (That's the stat that measures how many times a pitcher gives his team a chance to win a game.) We're inventing a new stat -- the CUS (Criminally Unsupported Start) -- which measures games in which an offense gives its pitcher no chance to win.

Our definition of a CUS is a game in which a pitcher goes at least six innings, but his offense scores no more than one run while he's in the game. Believe it or not, it's happened to Meche eight times already. Only one other pitcher in baseball (Jon Garland, with six) has more than five CUS.

"That [record] describes what people thought Meche was going to be," says one scout. "But that's not what he's been. I didn't think he had it in him to be a No. 3 [starter], let alone a No. 1. But he's pitched like a No. 1."

Andy Pettitte
It ought to be impossible to be a Yankee with a sub-3.00 ERA (2.93) and just a 4-4 record. But that's exactly what Andy Pettitte was before he was forced by the schedule gods to pitch in Coors Field on Wednesday (where he gave up six runs in 6 2/3 innings in a 6-1 loss).

Pettitte has had three saves blown behind him. And he's had just enough shaky defense and up-and-down run support that Baseball Prospectus ranks him as the sixth-unluckiest pitcher in the American League (just ahead of Meche). The result is that Pettitte still hasn't won a game in which he has allowed more than one run. Hard to believe.

"He was one of their few bright spots during that bad period," says one scout. "He hasn't gotten enough credit for that."

Erik Bedard
Erik Bedard's breakout year has been lost amid the rubble of the Orioles' other issues. But this guy ought to be way better than a 4-4 pitcher.

He leads the major leagues in strikeouts (112 in 94 IP). And the even better news is that he's working on a streak of nine straight starts in which he has allowed three runs or fewer. The bad news is, he has won exactly one of those nine starts -- thanks to three blown saves and no more than four runs to work with in any of those games.

"He came up as a thrower, but he's morphed into a guy who can pitch," says one scout. "He's got well-above-average stuff every time I see him. And now he's getting ahead of the hitters, which gives him a chance to pitch. He keeps them in every game. They just keep finding ways not to win."

Ah, but they're not the only ones. Which means those five pitchers aren't the only pitchers in this mess. So we'd hate to overlook this list:

Other pitchers who could sue for nonsupport

Jeremy Guthrie, Orioles; Mark Buehrle, Javier Vazquez and Jon Garland, White Sox; Joe Kennedy, A's; Carlos Silva, Twins; Ted Lilly and Rich Hill, Cubs; Ian Snell and Tom Gorzelanny, Pirates; Chris Young, Padres; Jeff Francis, Rockies; Doug Davis and Livan Hernandez, Diamondbacks; Derek Lowe, Dodgers; and the perennial captain of this team, Roy Oswalt, Astros.

Mister Coaster · 08-06-2007, 11:42 AM

OK, so there are pitchers with good ERA's and poor W-L records. So what? I think that proves my point better than anything. Thanks for that. I'm sure there is an article out there somewhere that points to pitchers with high ERA's and good W-L records. All this shows me is that the only stat worth any salt is the run support behind them.

Bottom line is, it was supposed to be a tight race in the AL West between the A's and Angels, it's not. The A's are currently 12 games back, and in no shape to make a playoff run. They won the AL West last season... with pitchers that they traded away. Ummmm... yeah....

kutulu · 08-06-2007, 01:48 PM

First of all, the A's didn't trade any pitching away last season. They lost Zito to free agency and that was NOT a loss. Despite losing Harden, they have one of the best pitching staffs in MLB.

In case you are unaware, it takes more than pitching to win games. The A's suck because they can't score runs. Period. It has absolutely nothing to do with the pitching staff and to say that their pitching staff isn't as good as it was the year before shows that you don't understand the game that well.

Mister Coaster · 08-06-2007, 07:17 PM

Reading back in this topic, its obvious "you know more" about baseball than any other TFP'er... so I'll let it go. Good luck to your D'backs.

Kadath · 08-07-2007, 04:45 AM

The American League Central is playing like trash right now. The Tigers are 2-8 in their last ten and the Indians have only been able to achieve a half game lead. Depressing!

kutulu · 08-07-2007, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

Reading back in this topic, its obvious "you know more" about baseball than any other TFP'er... so I'll let it go. Good luck to your D'backs.

I'm sorry I came off like that, I definitely don't want to come across as someone who thinks he knows everything because I totally don't. I get very passionate when I see people talking about W-L records and drawing conclusions about actual pitching performances.

djtestudo · 08-08-2007, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

Yeah them, a pitching staff isn't just about ERA. Its about too many things to list, and the A's had pitchers that did it, now they dont. Answer me this, is their pitching staff better now or was it better in 2006? Quote all the ERA stats you want, it's the W-L record that counts.

Bill James and Rob Neyer would like a word with you out in the parking lot

Oakland has the third-best ERA in all of baseball this season (3.86), including the best starters' ERA (3.77). Their top three starter the last three years look like this:

2005:
Barry Zito (3.86), Joe Blanton (3.53), Dan Haren (3.73).

2006:
Barry Zito (3.83), Joe Blanton (4.84), Dan Haren (4.12).

2007:
Joe Blanton (3.71), Dan Haren (2.46), Chris Gaudin (4.18).

It seems to me that this season is the best of the three.

However, they are only on-pace to score 700 runs, which is 71 less then last season, 72 behind 2005, and 93 behind the pace of 2004, when they had the Big Three.

So, do you REALLY think they just don't have "it"?

Mister Coaster · 08-08-2007, 07:36 PM

Numbers, numbers, numbers! OK, how about this... As a fan of an AL West team, I was surprised to see the moves made by the A's on their pitching staff. Apparently these moves were made in a effort to improve it in one way or another. It would appear to a casual onlooker that these moves did not work, as the A's are now below .500 and doing their best to stay out of the AL West basement. However, if they were only looking to improve their top 3 pitcher's ERA's, and looking for quality starts, then they succeeded on that and have been failed by their offence.

Fair statements?

djtestudo · 08-08-2007, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

Numbers, numbers, numbers! OK, how about this... As a fan of an AL West team, I was surprised to see the moves made by the A's on their pitching staff. Apparently these moves were made in a effort to improve it in one way or another. It would appear to a casual onlooker that these moves did not work, as the A's are now below .500 and doing their best to stay out of the AL West basement. However, if they were only looking to improve their top 3 pitcher's ERA's, and looking for quality starts, then they succeeded on that and have been failed by their offence.

Fair statements?

No, because it completely ignores the offensive numbers I posted. When your pitching is better and your offense is worse then another season, and you are losing more games then another season, which do you think has more of an effect?

Here are the top starters for this season and last season on offense:

2007

Code:

Pos Player              Ag   G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  BB  SO   BA    OBP   SLG  SB  CS  GDP HBP  SH  SF IBB  OPS+
---+-------------------+--+----+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+----+-----+-----+-----+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+----+
C   Jason Kendall       33   80  292   24   66  10  0   2   22  12   27  .226  .261  .281   3   1   7   3   2   3   0   46
1B *Dan Johnson         27   83  291   36   68  17  1  11   41  52   50  .234  .350  .412   0   0   9   2   0   4   4  104
2B  Mark Ellis          30  105  401   51  106  20  1  15   52  30   65  .264  .327  .431   7   2   7   9   2   3   0  102
3B *Eric Chavez         29   90  341   43   82  21  2  15   46  34   76  .240  .306  .446   4   2   9   0   0   4   2   99
SS  Bobby Crosby        27   93  349   40   79  16  0   8   31  23   62  .226  .278  .341  10   2  11   2   0   0   1   66
LF  Shannon Stewart     33  101  392   54  117  13  0   9   35  35   43  .298  .360  .401  10   1  12   3   1   0   0  105
CF *Mark Kotsay         31   51  190   19   43  14  0   1   20  18   17  .226  .292  .316   1   1   4   0   0   1   2   64
RF *Travis Buck         23   75  257   36   71  18  4   7   31  36   64  .276  .367  .459   3   1   9   3   2   4   2  121
DH *Jack Cust           28   77  238   36   62  11  0  17   51  55   98  .261  .397  .521   0   2   4   1   0   3   0  145

2006

Code:

Pos Player              Ag   G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  BB  SO   BA    OBP   SLG  SB  CS  GDP HBP  SH  SF IBB  OPS+
---+-------------------+--+----+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+----+-----+-----+-----+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+----+
C   Jason Kendall       32  143  552   76  163  23  0   1   50  53   54  .295  .367  .342  11   5  19  12   4   5   2   89
1B *Dan Johnson         26   91  286   30   67  13  1   9   37  40   45  .234  .323  .381   0   0   6   0   0   5   2   85
2B  Mark Ellis          29  124  441   64  110  25  1  11   52  40   76  .249  .319  .385   4   0  13   8   4   7   1   85
3B *Eric Chavez         28  137  485   74  117  24  2  22   72  84  100  .241  .351  .435   3   0  19   1   0   6   6  106
SS  Bobby Crosby        26   96  358   42   82  12  0   9   40  36   76  .229  .298  .338   8   1  11   0   2   2   1   68
LF #Nick Swisher        25  157  556  106  141  24  2  35   95  97  152  .254  .372  .493   1   2  13  11   2   6   7  126
CF *Mark Kotsay         30  129  502   57  138  29  3   7   59  44   55  .275  .332  .386   6   3  18   2   4   6   1   89
RF #Milton Bradley      28   96  351   53   97  14  2  14   52  51   65  .276  .370  .447  10   2  13   2   0   1   1  115
DH  Frank Thomas        38  137  466   77  126  11  0  39  114  81   81  .270  .381  .545   0   0  13   6   0   6   3  141

So, there has been a drop-off at catcher, third base, shortstop, all three outfield spots, and DH. Plus, Nick Swisher went from 35 home runs and a .865 OPS to on-pace for 21 home runs and an .823 OPS.

Like I said, better pitching vs. worse offense. Which is more at fault?

Mister Coaster · 08-08-2007, 08:11 PM

Did I or did I not say that they were failed by their offence? Yes I did. Did you bother to read my whole post?

06-07-2007, 04:49 AM	#121 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	How is that a legitimate link, kutulu? __________________ it's quiet in here

06-07-2007, 09:26 AM	#123 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	My bad. It's that MLB shitty shit shit player doesn't like my Firefox. I got it to work in IE. That is an amazing play. __________________ it's quiet in here

06-11-2007, 09:54 PM	#124 (permalink)
QuasiMondo Wise-ass Latino Location: Pretoria (Tshwane), RSA	Some will ask, "Is it too early for a Mets fan to panic?" My answer: It's never too early for a Mets fan to panic. __________________ Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer. -From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

06-12-2007, 03:09 AM	#125 (permalink)
Destrox Metal and Rock 4 Life Location: Phoenix	Heh, thats the life of an Indian as well. Its a panic race all the way to the end. __________________ You bore me.... next.

06-12-2007, 04:51 AM	#126 (permalink)
Ilow Junkie Location: Pats country	same as a red sox fan too. i guess we're in a fortunate position if you think about it, do you think that tampa bay, kansas city etc, ever panic? __________________ "Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about" --Sam Harris

06-07-2007, 08:03 AM	#122 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	It was working yesterday if you copied and pasted it. It can be found here, third vid link down

06-12-2007, 08:13 AM	#127 (permalink)
QuasiMondo Wise-ass Latino Location: Pretoria (Tshwane), RSA	I think Kansas City has abandoned all hope. Go Chiefs? __________________ Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer. -From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

06-17-2007, 11:57 PM	#129 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	1150 ABs in the M's farm system doesn't make him a Mariner. And really, if we are going to send rings to stupid GM's that undervalue their players Joe Garagiola, Jr. is in front of the line for a 2004 Boston ring for his trade of Schilling for Fossum and Lyon.

06-25-2007, 08:20 PM	#133 (permalink)
guy44 Somnabulist Location: corner of No and Where	Kadath, MLB's video player completely works in Firefox. I use it all the time. That was a great play by Lyon. As a longtime Cubs fan, it was also great to hear Gracie with the call. __________________ "You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

06-29-2007, 08:55 PM	#134 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	Angels v Baltimore... what a game... Sorry O's fans. __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

07-02-2007, 12:45 PM	#135 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	Just wanted to mention that the Indians are making me happy right now. Won 4 in a row, 7-3 for their last 10. They have the third best record in baseball and the best home record of anyone. I'd still like them to have more solid pitching, but they're in great shape. If they can just keep it up... __________________ it's quiet in here

07-03-2007, 05:11 AM	#137 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Hmm, Cubs have won 9/10 (10/11 actually) and are over .500. They're still 6 1/2 back of the Brewers, but they're playing Washington and Pittsburgh this week. Hey, anyone want to watch me get my hopes up just to get kicked in the balls again? At least I can feel good that the White Sox are about to start the fire sale. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

07-03-2007, 10:07 AM	#138 (permalink)
bazkitcase5 Crazy Location: Tupelo, MS	haha, yea, the cubs will find a way to lose to the people their supposed to beat this week (I like the cubs too unfortunately) altho I must admit, the Lou tirade that led to suspensions seems to have worked after all

07-10-2007, 07:58 AM	#139 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	My boy Big Daddy Vladdy tearin' it up in the Home Run Derby. Way to hammer that rock. I know it's all meaningless, but it fun to watch guys crushin' em out. Especially Vlad's 503' smackaroo, woof. __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

07-11-2007, 05:17 AM	#141 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	^ Agreed. With "only" 14 homers at the break, I think the odds are he's really going to start hittin' em out. Kind of like Figgins' run after his dismal .111 start this year. __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

07-19-2007, 01:32 AM	#142 (permalink)
MontanaXVI Junkie Location: Go A's!!!!	I'm not gone, just lurking and holding out hope that the hard luck A's can do something. __________________ Spank you very much

07-20-2007, 05:00 PM	#143 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	I have to admit, I'm not TOO surprised at The A's struggles. They had a brilliant pitching staff not long ago and traded them all away. Seattle, on the other hand, who lit a fire under their collective asses? __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

08-02-2007, 11:47 AM	#144 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Damn, this season has been such a roller coaster for me. The DBacks are finally back in first and they just called up Justin Upton. I'm excited but not expecting to stay in first place for a long time. The team is so damn inconsistent. They have had at least 3 streaks of 7 wins but then they fall off a cliff for the next few.

08-02-2007, 12:11 PM	#145 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	Well the Trade Deadline was pretty disappointing and I'm shocked at some of the teams that didn't make a move.. especially Cleveland. I'm not sure how I feel about the Gange trade just yet, I know it should help in the long run but I guess we'll have to see how he handles a big market. I'm also hoping that the Bo'Sox don't get Jermaine Dye. I just don't see him fitting in with the club that well. Speculation has Santana coming over from the Twins possibly next year.. man that would be awesome. I'm pretty surprised at the D-backs this season. I thought they would have gone and got a big big bat but with the mostly crap that was out there I can't really blame them.

08-02-2007, 02:53 PM	#146 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Yes, Boston is a larger stage than LA but LA is not small market by any means. The Red Sox are some lucky mfers to have Gagne as a setup guy. This effectively reduces a game against them to 7 innings. Definite favorites to win in all now (as if there was much doubt before). As for position players, the DBacks are still committed to their young bats (although bringing up Upton rather than a AAA OF to fill in signals that they have had it with Carlos Quentin for the year). They recently fired the hitting coach and that prompted them to go 11-6 since the break. They needed starting pitching more than anything. Overall, they have gotten by all year on luck and a great bullpen. Those guys are going to break down if the starters not named Webb and Davis continue to shit all over the place.

08-02-2007, 04:44 PM	#147 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	My concern with the Gagne trade is basically a health concern. He's done well this year staying healthy, but after seeing J.D. Drew do pretty much nothing all year, and the issues we've had with Coco Crisp and injuries.. the last thing I want as a fan is another overpayed DL player. I was really surprised the Sox got rid of Gabbard, he was doing awesome. Now I know you have to give up something to get something and at least we didn't give up the phenom's (Clay Buchholz, Jacoby Ellsbury, and Justin Masterson) but I would have loved to see Gabbard stay in the mix even at Pawtucket in order for a 2008 rotation somewhere along the lines of Beckett, Matsusaka, Lester, Gabbard and Santana.. of course that means getting rid of Curt and Wakefield but they are getting old.. you can't rely on old arms but for so long. Then the other issue is who in the world wants to buy Willy Mo?? Send him to the Red's? For what? There's nothing much there and the chi'sox aren't going to go one for one with Willy Mo and Dye. There's so much more that could change this year even on waivers, so it's going to continue to be an interesting year.

08-03-2007, 08:37 AM	#148 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	I wouldn't worry about his health. He's only a 2 month rental. Boston is on the hook for 2.1M of his performance bonuses (they were guaranteed as a condition of waiving the NTC) and about 2M in salary. Therefore, they will pay about $4M for 2 months. That is a lot, especially considering he'll get less than 30 innings but Boston can afford it. Teams can pick up spare parts on waivers but they aren't going to get anyone that can make much of a difference.

08-05-2007, 04:45 AM	#150 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	Yeah them, a pitching staff isn't just about ERA. Its about too many things to list, and the A's had pitchers that did it, now they dont. Answer me this, is their pitching staff better now or was it better in 2006? Quote all the ERA stats you want, it's the W-L record that counts. Edit: I meant the A's in 2006, not 2005. __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW! Last edited by Mister Coaster; 08-06-2007 at 11:36 AM..

08-06-2007, 11:42 AM	#152 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	OK, so there are pitchers with good ERA's and poor W-L records. So what? I think that proves my point better than anything. Thanks for that. I'm sure there is an article out there somewhere that points to pitchers with high ERA's and good W-L records. All this shows me is that the only stat worth any salt is the run support behind them. Bottom line is, it was supposed to be a tight race in the AL West between the A's and Angels, it's not. The A's are currently 12 games back, and in no shape to make a playoff run. They won the AL West last season... with pitchers that they traded away. Ummmm... yeah.... __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

08-06-2007, 01:48 PM	#153 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	First of all, the A's didn't trade any pitching away last season. They lost Zito to free agency and that was NOT a loss. Despite losing Harden, they have one of the best pitching staffs in MLB. In case you are unaware, it takes more than pitching to win games. The A's suck because they can't score runs. Period. It has absolutely nothing to do with the pitching staff and to say that their pitching staff isn't as good as it was the year before shows that you don't understand the game that well.

08-06-2007, 07:17 PM	#154 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	Reading back in this topic, its obvious "you know more" about baseball than any other TFP'er... so I'll let it go. Good luck to your D'backs. __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

08-07-2007, 04:45 AM	#155 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	The American League Central is playing like trash right now. The Tigers are 2-8 in their last ten and the Indians have only been able to achieve a half game lead. Depressing! __________________ it's quiet in here

08-08-2007, 07:36 PM	#158 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	Numbers, numbers, numbers! OK, how about this... As a fan of an AL West team, I was surprised to see the moves made by the A's on their pitching staff. Apparently these moves were made in a effort to improve it in one way or another. It would appear to a casual onlooker that these moves did not work, as the A's are now below .500 and doing their best to stay out of the AL West basement. However, if they were only looking to improve their top 3 pitcher's ERA's, and looking for quality starts, then they succeeded on that and have been failed by their offence. Fair statements? __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

08-08-2007, 08:11 PM	#160 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	Did I or did I not say that they were failed by their offence? Yes I did. Did you bother to read my whole post? __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW! Last edited by Mister Coaster; 08-08-2007 at 08:15 PM..