Does anybody want to know more about transsexuality?
 

I've mentioned in passing that I have a sister who is a MTF (male to female) transsexual, which is to say that she was born physically male, but has undergone a variety of therapeutic and medical treatments to take on the female role and become physically female. She has the first phase of her SRS (sex reassignment surgery) tomorrow. I've observed and talked to her and helped her through her transition as best I could, and in the process I've done a huge amount of research into MTF sexuality. I know a bit about the FTM (female to male) type also, but have no personal experience with it. In addition to knowing my sister, I've met and talked to several of the transwomen (transsexual women, another term for a MTF) in her group, one of whom is a tenant of ours. My sister transitioned (changed her social sex) in her teens, and my friend is in the early stages of the process in her mid to late 30's.

Though I am not transgendered myself, I do have access to resources related to transsexuals, including my experience with my sister, my MTF friend, and my therapist, who is a specialist in the treatment of people with problems related to sexuality, including the transgendered. Most questions I can answer myself, the rest I can run by my sister or my friend or my therapist, or can easily find the answers through one of my research sources.

I have run this past my sister and my friend, and they both said it's fine to talk about them so long as I don't reveal too much personal information.

So, if you have questions or comments, please feel free to fire away. I've seen far too many ignorant comments and assumptions made about transsexuals, and would like to do my part to help clear things up and maybe do a little educating.

Honestly, I can't say that I do want to know. It's one of my own shortcomings that I'm very uncomfortable with homosexuality, transexuality and bisexuality. My opinion runs in the popular 'what you do behind closd doors is your own business' vein, but I don't want the graphic details, particularly.

The only part that confuses me on occasion is what the proper pronouns to use are, as this seems to be personal preference. I once knew a crossdresser who, while in drag, insisted that (and I quote) "I still have a pair of balls between my legs", although I don't know if that's really the same as a transexual. At what point does an individual change gender identities and is it a conscious decision? Further, how does one go about communicating such a transition?

This is gonna sound like a lame questions... but how does a person know they are biologically the wrong sex...

I was a total tomboy growing up.. .dolls didn't interest me, playing house didn't interest me, babies weren't cute... playing war and kamikaze bike riding down a hill were fun... boy stuff was just much more fun... When I was 9 I probably wanted to be a boy, but as an adult, I would only want to be female... so what clicks in their head that biology goofed and made them the wrong gender? Is this something that they knew from childhood? How's it different from a girl who's a tomboy or a boy who didn't like to get dirty and was a little prissy - just because it's part of their personality.

Actually, your original post told me the only pieces I haven't been sure about: terminology. I've never really know how to refer to transsexuals in a way that is appropriate and sensitive, but your post gave me all that. Thanks!

I think my main question would be similar to Maleficent's. Growing up I was never a big fan of prissy, girly things (I had Hot Wheels instead of Barbies) and as an adult I'm still kind of the same - I don't own a blow drier, can't be bothered with a lot of girly-type stuff, am allergic to ruffles, etc. But I've never wanted to be a boy, not for a minute. It seems there's enough flexibility within gender roles in our society that if you're willing to put up with a little disapproval, you can do what you want. Maybe it's because my parents didn't impose very rigid gender expectations on me, but I never felt I had to be male to do something (except penis-related activities of course). So I'm wondering, what could be so bad about one's sex that you'd be willing to go through all that to change it?

That about sums up my feeling on Mr.Happy, so I too only wonder what makes a man say 'off with the head!' so to speak. Its about as drastic a thing one could do to themselves and I'm not sure how someone decides its best discarded.

Crossdresser/Transvestite: To dress in the attire of the opposite gender for sexual arousal (usually). A sexual kink, so to speak.
Trangendered: One that feels they were born the wrong gender (or otherwise wishes to change gender).
Transexual: One that feels they were born the wrong gender (or otherwise wishes to change gender) AND is currently in the transition of correcting that. Where transition begins I guess could be simply at the point of initial consultation with psychological & medical professionals.

I think society has made it hard or less likely for females to feel such a thing. A simple example of "why" is how females can select a career of whatever they choose without ridicule eg. sales assitant in a menswear store, whereas if a males was a sales assistant in a womens store he would accused of being gay.
I only point that out because I think to all females asking "how do you know" - it's probably harder for you to imagine such a thing because you live in a world where you're (females) not shunned for (hardly) any expression of masculinity eg. you can take up kickboxing without being accused of being a lesbian & you won't become less attractive in the eyes of most males. A male that takes up ballet, wears a g-string, becomes a receptionist, etc. doesn't tend to receive the same neutral treatment.

I should get to the point and answer your question: imagine tomorrow you wake up and discover you now have the body of a muscular male. Would this make you desire to kiss a female & lose interest in men? Would it make you want to walk down the street in a pair of baggy jeans & hate the thought of wearing a dress? More importantly, would you close your eyes & think to yourself "I am a man"?
Females: everything you mentally desire/feel/know about yourself is what an MTF transexual would desire/feel/know about themself, except they're wrapped in the wrong shell.

*Note: any MTF may solely be interested in sex with females only. Sexual desire is just one element & does not determine sexual identity but whatever any particular transexual's sexuality may be, they would still be well aware of what their sexual identity is.

I took a Philosophy of Sex and Gender class a few semesters back and we spent a long time talking about Hermaphrodism (which I know isn't the right term anymore) and Transgendered/Transsexual issues. I was absloutely floored that the medical community has absloutely NO idea what to do if a baby is born hermaphrodidic- apparently they measure the penis/clitoris on the newborn baby, and if it's under a certian legnth they deem the baby a girl and do all necessairy surgery to make the baby a girl, and if it's over they do all they need to to make the baby a boy (including removing ovaries, uteruses, and vaginas if they're presenet in the baby). The medical community treats it as an "abomination" and in most cases will NOT be satisfied until the baby is a specific gender, with organs that match.

That said, this is about transexuals... I do know that it is polite to refer to people who are transsexual as the gender they feel they are, and not the gender of their bodies. Learning about these things was one of the greatest tools I picked up in college, because I feel like I got a HUGE understanding of a portion of the population that is generally considered taboo.

My only question is about money. Surgery, therapy, hormones, medication, all of this stuff costs a hell of a lot of money. How does one pay for that sort of stuff? Medical bills often put people in a lifetime of debt, can this type of surgery come under a health or insurance plan? Has your sister saved p her whole life for this, or am I exaggerating the cost?

I know this has nothing to do with the society's view and acceptance of various forms of sexuality, so if you'd rather not answer this then I understand.

Gilda, thank you for opening up this topic to discussion. Over the course of my college career I have taken several classes on human sexuality, including one on the history of sexuality in which we had to read Joanne Meyerowitz's book "How Sex Changed." In my women and sexuality class we read excerpts from the book and an article (the name of the author has slipped my mind, but it is referenced in a paper I wrote that I don't have access to at the moment) dealing with transsexual hate crimes.

Transsexuality is an issue many ignore, including others marginalized by their sexuality/gender (for instance, the GLBT community just came around to welcoming transsexual/transgendered folks under their umbrella in the late 90s). Hate crimes committed against transsexual/transgendered people are also largely ignored. I wrote an extensive paper on that topic for my women and sexuality class, focusing on the media coverage of the Mathew Shepard case versus a similar incident in Texas that happened to a transgendered teenager. In my paper I addressed the fact that the media tends to make transsexual/transgendered people into a circus sideshow versus trying to treat them like normal human beings. The example of Christine Jorgensen illustrates just how the media has done this--Christine's tabloid coverage is the first really clear example and there are many more that follow.

I've yet to meet a transsexual, and believe me, I desire the opportunity to humanize them versus thinking of them in some nebulous scholarly context. They seem to be the one thing really lacking in our GLBT community on campus, though I'm sure they are out there. I can only hope I'm a loud enough voice that they know they have an ally and friend in me.

Please tell Sissy that even though I am a stranger I am enormously proud of her for being true to herself despite the hardship of doing so. The same goes for you, Gilda. The both of you deserve much applause for having the spine and strength to be yourselves. I can only imagine the difficulty Sissy is facing in her change but I imagine it's worth it in the end. I wish her the best of luck with her surgery, and I'm glad that she has a sister like you to support her. I hope everything goes well for both of you.

Thank God for Harry Benjamin, eh?

Thank you for your questions. I appreciate your questions, and I'll get to them as soon as posssible. I just got back from the hospital. Grace managed to convince them to allow us to stay a little past normal visiting hours, and I'm really, really tired right now, so I'll get to your questions tomorrow.

onesnowyowl: Harry Benjamin is one of my heroes.

Gilda

I have been personally amazed at transgendered/transexual people. Because as a society we do treat them as outsiders (society as a whole). Both genders have the same feeling, now I am only speaking as a general whole of the people. I think the accptance of these people take a somewhat long time because we are somewhat baffled by why a person was born this way or why the would want to be another gender.

Though as I say this, I don't think it would bother me at all. I would just be curious to see what it is like.

There are something that cannot be explained that easily, so I guess thats why I don't really want to ask why. But for me my biggest question would be what is the impact on these persons life, before and after the change? Were they treated differently or was it all the same?

My question is...how do they relate to those who may not know that they are transgendered. If your sister (just as an example) goes out and finds a guy that she likes (I maybe wrongly assuming that she is attracted to males, I'm not sure) is it something to tell right away, or not? If she got involved with a man who doesn't know when would it be an appropriate time to tell him that she is a transsexual? I'm just not sure, and have always wondered about the ethics of that...

Thank you for your patience everyone, and for your help apolian. Sissy is in surgery right now, and I won't be seeing her for another six to eight hours minimum.

Because all of my experience is with MTF transsexuals, when I refer to a transsexual or TS, it should be understood that I'm referring solely to MTF transsexuals, and not FTM. Their issues are often similar, but separate.

That's a good point. Unfortunately, it isn't just an issue of what people do behind closed doors. Heterosexuals make an issue of their sexuality in small ways all the time. Just the act of holding hands or dancing in a public place with your SO is a way of advertising whether you are straight or gay. It also comes into play in hiring and promotion, in housing, in insurance, and in a thousand other small ways that people who are straight never think about.

It's the same with transsexuals. They have to deal with issues we don't. How much thought do you put into which bathroom to use when in a public place? Probably not much; I use the ladies room, just as I always have. Now put yourself into the head of a MTF who is out at the mall for the very first time dressed up as a women. This might be before she's even begun treatment, or it might be after she's been taking hormones a while. She might have her voice perfect, or might still be struggling with it. She's already scared half to death that she'll get read (identified as male) because of these factors, and if it's her first time in public, this is a more than reasonable concern; first timers very often are read. So, which bathroom should she use? The advice given MTF's is not to use public restrooms if it is at all possible to avoid them. If you can't, try to find a unisex or a family restroom, or a single occupant room. If not, you have a choice to make. Use the men's room, and you're advertising your anatomical sex and risking assault. Use the women's room, and you're risking getting arrested--transwomen have been arrested for using the women's room. Sissy, when she first started going to school as a girl, was offered the use of the staff restroom to help alleviate this problem, but preferred to take her chances in the girls' room to avoid advertising her status, and because there is a lot of socializing that goes on in a high school ladies room (I'm told this isn't necessarily true of the guys).

This is just one of a dozen little things most of us never think about that become problems for a transsexual that have nothing to do with what happens in the bedroom.

This is a good point. Your aquantence is a cross-dresser, a man who likes to occasionally dress in women's clothes. He obviously still thinks of himself as a man, and wants to be referred to as such. Many cross dressers like to go further and adopt a completely female persona when dressed, complete with a female name. The polite thing to do is address the person as they prefer to be addresed.

This is different from a transsexual, who thinks of herself as a female, regardless of how she's dressed, and for whom the proper pronouns are the feminine ones. As I mentioned in my OP, I have a friend who is in the early stage of transition, who only dresses in private (at home, when visiting my home, or in group therapy) and is still living as a man. I use exclusively female pronouns to describe her, because regardless of where she is in the process, she thinks of herself as a woman.

The general rule is to call a person what he/she wants to be called.

This is indeed one of the biggies. First of all, some clarification on the terminology might help.

Gender Identity refers to one's internal sense of being male or female. In the case of a transsexual, she already feels that she's female, despite having a male body. This sense is usually in place from early childhood, though some try to repress it due to discomfort with the conflict, societal pressure, pressure from family and friends, and so on.

Social Gender in this sense or Social Sex is how society sees us and reacts to us, ie, whether we're living as a male or female.

Sissy has been saying she was really a girl inside and acting like a girl since she was around three or four. She stopped doing it, as much as she could anyway, with our parents early on because she learned she'd get punished for doing this (mom would put soap in her mouth, dad would slap her), but with my sister and I she had the freedom to be who she was. My friend tells me she's always identified more with girls than with boys, but was forced into a male role by her parents and by a series of stepfathers who would beat her if she was too much of a sissy.

In both cases, and in most cases, a transexual's gender identity isn't something they have any control over; this isn't chosen. My friend has told me that she tried being a man, tried being macho, tried being a cross dresser, and tried just being an effeminate man, and nothing short of being a woman was enough. If it were a choice, she'd long ago have chosen to be male, to match the body she was born with.

There is some good evidence that gender identity is determined by a physical structure in the brain. In any case, gender identity, like sexual orientation, is not chosen.

Social gender, on the other hand, can be chosen. Sissy chose to live her life as a female, and she communicated this by telling everyone who would listen that she was supposed to be a girl until she found someone who was able to help her. In Sissy's case, it was literally a matter of life or death. She was in her early teens in a state of near-suicidal depression. Suicide is very common among untreated teen transsexuals, as it is among homosexual teens. My friend hasn't told anyone except her wife, my family, and the people treating her (therapist, electrologist, doctor). She suspects she'll lose her family when she tells them, and faces the prospect of losing her job when she's ready to transition at work. The coming out process is different for every person, but it's usually as simple (though not easy) as sitting down with someone who needs to know and telling them. In the case of transitioning at work, it's usually the direct supervisor or someone in personnel. Often, the transition is complete in one phase before another. Most often, an MTF will transition at home and stay in the male role at work, although on rare occasions, especially if she had children, the work transition will occur first. Some will try to go full immersion, and change cities and jobs post trasition, establishing a completely new identity post transition so that nobody in their lives knows.

Since most MTFs transition later, in their 20's or 30's, after they have an established life and career, the transition occures with everyone in their job knowing that they're transsexual.

Does someone that has had the surgery change their sex on their birth certificate and drivers licenses and passports etc?

The majority, regardless of when they transition, report lifelong feelings stemming from early childhood of being the wrong physical sex. Most repress these feelings until they become overwhelming later in life, usually as an adult, or simply accept what others are telling them and that their internal feeling of being the wrong sex is wrong. This does not make it go away, though, resulting in most transsexuals transitioning as adults, often in their 20's=40's, often after having married and had children.

The difference between this and the tomboy or the little boy who is a sissy who likes to do girl things is the self-identity. As you say, when you were nine you may have wished you were a boy, but did you ever actually believe that you were a boy? That's the difference.

Gender identity is like sexual orientation in this way. It is related to, and highly correlated with, physical sex, but they are not the same thing. I'm a proud girly girl who absolutely loves wearing very feminine clothes and high heels and getting my hair and nails done and who hates getting dirty, with no interest in sports and so forth, but I'm also a lesbian. I'm also a nerd who loves science fiction and superhero comic books. Those things don't fit in with most people's image of a girly girl.

Likewise, we assume that if a peson is physically male, that person believes himself to be male. Gender identity dysphoria (the psychological term for transsexual) only occurs in 1 out of every 10,000 males and 1 out of every 30,000 females, so this is usually a safe assumption.

apolian gave the standard empathy story most transsexuals are taught to help others understand: Imagine you wake up tomorrow in the body of a man. You've covered with thick, course body hair, you have a penis and testicles, narrow hips, no breast development, a much larger, heavier skeleton and upper body musculature, a deeper voice. Your body is flooded with testosterone, resulting in your getting angry and aggressive more easily and more often. Would you simply accept the evidence of your body, or would you seek to correct the problem?

Some people say that would be fine, rather than subject myself to the problems caused by not fitting into the proper social gender dictated by my body, I'd accept my body as my true sex.

Here's another way of thinking about it. Some might say they don't have an internal sense of being male or female. My body is female so that's how I know I'm a woman; it has nothing to do with some separate internal gender identity. So I'd ask, How do your kidneys feel right now? How about your appendix? Is your spleen feeling good? How about your trachea? It's very likely you don't feel anything from any of those organs because when they are functioning properly you don't have feel them at all. This is how gender identity works for some. If it's healthy, ie, if it matches your anatomical sex, you don't notice it because it's healthy. But a gender identity that doesn't match, one that tells you you're female when your body is male, is like an inflamed appendix; it stands out, it feels uncomfortable, painful even, and can be deadly if it isn't fixed.

Most of the time the best way is as their desired sex. Sissy prefers to be called a girl (or woman), she, her. The use of MTF or transwoman should be reserved for when you need to distiguish between a transsexual woman and a natal (natural born) woman.

This does bring up an interesting point, though. Most transsexuals I know refer to themselves when first transitioning as girls regardless of age. And without exception they tend to call their female voice their "girl voice". I think it's because most of the time they never got to be a girl, so, linguisticallly anyway, they go through a period of being a girl before they become a woman.

It isn't so much a matter of your birth sex being bad so much as it's that your physical sex is wrong. What you're talking about is gender roles. While you were playing with your hot wheels and avoiding dolls and ruffles and such, did people believe you were a boy? In your post you make a point of saying you never wanted to be a boy, that despite engaging in activities that were non-typical of your sex, you still identified yourself as female, and likely everyone else did, too. Would you have corrected others who misidentified you as male? This is the difference. A MTF transsexual wants to be and be indentified as female because that's who they believe themselves to be.

There are men in our society who behave in effeminate ways (sissies), who dress in women's clothes (cross dressers), who have sex with other men (gays) or engage in a combination of these activities. But they are all men, and even those who are in an evironment where these things are accepted, they identify as men. Transsexuals don't.

Keep in mind also that it isn't just the social role, though that's a big part of it. One of the treatments is hormone therapy, and many transsexuals report that shortly after beginning hormone therapy, their bodies begin to feel right, or more like they're supposed to once they have the mix of estrogen and testosterone appropriate to their brain sex, even before any physical changes manifest themselves.

I have an online friend who is a MTF transsexual who has type 2 diabetes and cannot take estrogen, androgen blockrs or have any serious surgical procedures done as a result. She works in a stereotypically masculne job, and tends to wear clothing that, while female, is typically more androgynous than feminine. Yet she still identifies herself as female, and had her sex and name legally changed to reflect this. She would undergo the therapies I list if she could, but she can't. Her reaction to the situation isn't typical, though. A great many type 2 diabetics who cannot get hormones or surgery--and of the two, horomones are the more important for both--kill themselves. Being the wrong sex is that distressing.

You say in your post, "But I've never wanted to be a boy, not for a minute." Sissy felt exactly the same way growing up. My friend Jen feels exactly the same way.

I'm not sure if thats a good analogy, and I bring it up because there must be something fundamentally different in someone who is a transexual vrs someone who is not. In my case lets say I woke up a woman tomorrow, a not unpopular theme in bad tv/cinima, provided I had all the right body parts and my BRAIN was female as well then I think I would start to think/act female. The female hormones would take over my 'female' brain and I would 'be' female. Feelings I had as a male would be foreign to me, and I might remember what it was like to be male, I wouldn't BE male.

In someone who is a transexual, whatever part of the brain says 'male/female' must be switched, and my personal theory is that its the hormone sensitivity that does it. You might be making all the testosterone in the world but if your brain chemoreceptors are female, you will not have the male reaction to the hormone but the female one. Various degrees of this difference may explain homosexuality as well, though my guess is that for homosexuality it is a different set of receptors which are switched since the issue isn't identity. As much as we hate to admit it, sex is just chemical, and can go off and on like a light at times, I see no reason why sexual identity couldn't be something as basic.

First, not all transsexuals have genital surgery. Many find that, once they've been taking estrogen and androgen blockers for a couple of years and living as a woman for a year, and in some cases, having their testicles removed (orchiectomy or orchidectomy), the penis ceases to be percieved as a sexual organ for them. Indeed, this is actually a common occurance a few months after removal of the testicles.

And contrary to popular misconception, it's still possible for a MTF to get an erection and have intercourse even after she starts taking estrogen, androgen blockers, and even after orchiectomy.

The penis also retains it's sexual sensitivity for a great many MTF's so long as a minimal level of testosterone (which is also produced in the adrenal glands) is maintained and even in the absense of an erection can be used in intimate contact, much the way a woman's clit is.

That said, most MTF's do desire SRS. However, you seem to be operating under another misconception. The only piece of male anatomy that is discarded is the testicles. Everything else is restructured into female genitals. In the most commonly used procedure, a penile inversion vaginoplasty, the skin of the shaft is turned inside out and used as the lining of the neo-vagina, in Sissy's case with a graft from the scrotum, and the glans is reused as the new clitoris. Sometimes a graft from the colon is also used in the neo-vagina to provide lubrication and additional depth.

But that's not what you're really asking is it? What makes a man want to not have a penis? The answer is that a MTF isn't a man, she's a woman. I don't want to have a penis. Based on the responses to a thread from not too long ago, the vast majority of women don't. A MTF transsexual is a woman, and just like other women, wants to have a vagina rather than a penis.

The mistake is to think of it as a psychological problem. It isn't. It's a physical problem. The transsexual has malformed genitals, and the surgeon corrects this malformation.

I don't mean to be insensitive or intolerant, but I'd hardly call it a malformation. If I make the DECISION to change my gender that does not mean that my genitals are malformed. If I have a functioning penis with erections and semen and all of that, then it is not malfunctioning. It is a conscience decision that you are not happy how you are, but it does not inherently a malformation. It's the same for obese people: many people make the decision that they do not want to be obese and work to correct that. It does not mean they have bad metabolism or malfunctioning digestion.. it means they don't like how they are and want to change it.

I was Sissy's legal guardian from the time she was 15 to the time she turned 18, and listed her on my family plan insurance through work. Unfortunately, transsexual services are almost always excluded, either specifically, or in the case of my insurance, as "cosmetic procdures". So we, Grace and I, essentially paid cash for everything. Older MTF's can usually get doctor's visits and hormones paid for, but seldom surgery, and I've never heard of hair removal being covered.

The single biggest expense for most MTF transsexuals is one you didn't mention, and one most people don't think of, and that is hair removal. The male beard, once it begins growth, doesn't respond to hormone therapy. It must be removed permanently, either through electrolysis, laser, or a combination of the two. An older MTF typically needs some 200-300 hours of electrolysis to completely remove the beard, at a rate of some $60-$100 per hour. In some cases, it can take as much as 500 hours to completely finish.

Body hair does respond, and over a couple of years, male body hair will thin out. The younger the MTF when she starts, the more thinning she gets. Older MTF's still need some more removal, and if they respond well to the hormones, waxing and other typical methods of female hair removal will suffice, but most still need some kind of permanent romoval for chest, back, and arm hair.

Hair removal can eventually cost as much as $20,000-$30,000. Sissy fortunately started hormones early, and had late onset of puberty, so she essentially had female puberty in place of male. There was still some beard hair, but very little, and almost no body hair to remove.

Hormones vary in cost, but the most common regimens, estogen, androgen blockers, and sometimes progestins, can cost more than $100 a month initially, though that cost goes down after a couple of years, especially following orchiectomy or SRS. In additon doctors visits including bloodwork, done at 3-6 month intervals, cost a few hundred dollars a pop, though these are typically covered by insurance.

Therapy costs typically $100-$150 an hour, and must be done for a minimum of 12 sessions to get a hormone letter, then again for 8 sessions to get an SRS letter. Therapy may be covered by insurance if it covers mental health services.

SRS costs vary greatly, depending highly upon where it's done. The cheapest place, and the place where the most surgeries are performed, is Thailand, where the complete package costs around $7,000 currently. My friend Jen is planning to have hers there in a couple of years. If you get one of the better surgeons, the results can be quite good and are generally satisfactory. In the US, costs vary from a little over $15,000 to close to $25,000 for the first stage procedure, and another $3000-$3500 for the second stage if needed and/or desired. In Canada, the most prominent surgeons currently charge about $12,000, and in Europe it's a bit less than the US, though more expensive than Thailand.

Breast implants cost about the same as for a natal woman. Facial surgery is relatively new and is very expensive, costing as much as $30,000 for the chin, jaw, forehead, nose, and trachea, or less depending on which prodedures the patient gets. These are never covered by insurance.

Another one you missed is voice therapy, which costs typically $100-$150 per hour long session.

Overall costs can run from some $30,000-$70,000 dollars for full transition including SRS, in additon to which many risk the loss of their jobs and or careers.

Younger transsexuals will typically get by with hormones, acquired through unofficial channels such as overseas pharmacies that don't require a prescription. Those who transition in their teens almost universally seek SRS, and have to save for it, which is a big part of the reason why Thai surgeons are so popular. Drag clubs often feature MTF transsexuals who perform there because it's the only employment other than as a prostitute available to them that provides the income they need to live on and save for the surgery, and some end up as prostitutes because rejection by their families and not having any job skills or means of making a living leaves them with little choice in the matter.

Yep, it's really a tragedy that some people are so small minded that they would attack or even kill someone simply because they are transsexual. This is why you'll never see me posting pictures of Sissy anywhere on the internet, although she is quite pretty and completely feminine. There are transsexuals who put up vanity websites to show off, but I think that's a bit foolish on their part. All you have to do in a group of transsexuals is mention the name Brandon Teena or half a dozen others to spark a long, involved conversation. MTF transgendered persons have a murder rate about 119 murders per 100,000 annually, or about 3 times the rate of young black males. The killer is usually a straight male, often a current or former sexual partner. It happens often enough that there's even a legal defense for this, called trans-panic, in which it is claimed that panic resulting from a sudden revelation that a man's partner is transgender justifies homicide. It's disgusting.

Unfortunately, often the T in GLBT is sometimes just tacked on without having any regard for the rights and concerns of the transgendered. Many lesbians and feminists, particularly the man haters, resent and reject transsexual women for "trying to infiltrate thier sex" and reject the notion that they are women at all. The Women's International Music Festival for years actively screened out transwomen from attending, declaring that the festival was for "womyn born womyn" only, a backhanded way of saying transsexuals were not actually women.

Yep, I can't remember her name, but I know the case. She was a MTF teen who was in the initial stages of figuring out her identity, and had performed oral sex on a teen boy she had met at a party. When it was revealed that she was transgender, the boy and several of his friends choked and beat her to death, and claimed transpanic as their defense at trial.

To be fair, didn't Jorgensen actually seek out the publicity and make a living as a performer/poster girl? But yeah, the talk shows tend to sensationalize it, exposing the drag queens and drag club performers, giving people the idea that this is what a transgender person is, when really that's just a fringe group.

Maybe there aren't any on your campus. The incidence of transsexualism is quite small, about 1 in 10,000 male births, and 1 in 30,000 female births, so it's possible there are no transsexuals on your campus. It's also possible that they want to stay hidden, to simply be accepted as normal women and men. Sissy certainly wouldn't join a GLBT group, because that would mean revealing to the general populace at the university that she was transsexual, which is something most people have no need to know.

It would probably comfort her to know there were people like you involved, though.

Amen.

Their lives are never the same as before transition.

How different thier lives are, and how they are different depends greatly on the situation as it existed previous to the transition. For Sissy, she was living with my parents, who were trying to force her into being a boy, she was punished if she acted or dressed like a girl, she was antagonized at school where she wasn't accepted by just about anyone, and she in effect couldn't date. Nobody believed that she was a girl inside, that she wasn't just a gay boy.

After she came to live with me, and she started living and going to school as a girl, which she did immediately, even before the hormones had any physical effect, she was enormously, amazingly a much happier person. She no longer harbored thoughts of suicide, she was able to be friends with the girls and more importantly be a girl in public, and she was able to be a girl at home. It improved her life immeasurably. This is true of most who transition in their teens; their lives are easier and better as girls than as boys, particularly as they tend to be identified by the outside world as gay boys prior to transition; it's easier to be a straight girl than a gay boy in our society.

Most transsexuals transition as adults (these are sometimes called secondary transsexuals). Life is usually more difficult for them as they transition, and though it becomes easier post transition than it was during, it's almost always more difficult than it was pre-transition. They risk losing friends, jobs, and family. Those who are married usually lose their wives and children. It's far more difficult for them to pass as and be accepted as female. Many end up living quiet, desperate, lonely lives, unable to find companionship or acceptance anywhere outside the transgender community. There are those who return to their previous male role because of not being able to get employment or find acceptance anywhere as a woman. Most, however, feel their lives are better, even though they are more difficult, even when they've lost family, wives and children, jobs and friends, because they are able to be who they are and were always supposed to be.

No obviously murder is not the answer, but what is the proper response to getting a bj and then finding out it was a man, transgender issues asside?

I think I'd be pretty pissed, and its rather foolish for anyone to attempt such deception.

This is one of the big ones, something that Grace and I have discussed with Sissy, she's discussed in group therapy and with her therapist.

First, for people who aren't intimate, such as casual friends and the like, they don't need to know. At her high school, the only people we told were her principal and counselor. Her teachers and friends, teammates on the academic decathlon and chess teams didn't need to know, as it had nothing to do with how they related to her. The fact that she used to be physically male and still had male genitals had no bearing on their relationship to her, and could only serve to interfere with it had they known, so she kept it quiet. Since she began college, she hasn't told anyone other than intimate partners because, once again, it's irrelevant to the relationship.

In a dating situation, it's different though, and there are really three disticnt groups and the ethics differ slightly for each. Those who cannot pass easily have the easiest time, as their partners almostly universally know when the relationship begins. Calpurnia Adams' boyfriend (Soldier's Girl) was first attracted to her in part because she was transsexual (he was later murdered because of this)>

With Sissy, as with any other pre-op transsexual (a transsexual who plans to have SRS, but has not yet had it) it was a bit trickier. She was passing easily and fully pretty much from day one. Nobody ever read her, even before the hormones took full effect, and after a couple of years, she was prettier than the majority of natal women. Hell, she's prettier than me. I'm not going to post pictures for the general public, but I have shown them to sweetpea, and I think she can confirmwhat I'm saying here.

Some people advocate that this be revealed on the first date. What we (Grace, Sissy, her therapist and I) decided was that on a first date was not necessary especially since Sissy went out with a lot of first dates that never resulted in a second, meaning that it would quickly become generally known in the community, and at her school, a situation that would not have been good. We were also in agreement that it must be discussed before she was intimate with a boy, for her protection and because it's something that the boy, now man, has the right to know. It also allowed us to do it in a setting that protected Sissy physically; she always told the boy on a double date with me and Grace, or later, when she was more confident, by herself in a public place. On one occasion the guy got very upset and threatened violence and she had to call to have Grace and me come pick her up. Most of the time, the guy just ended the relationship.

In addition we also agreed that it was important to tell those with whom she was going to be emotionally intimate. If she thought she might fall in love with a guy, or he with her, it was time to tell, even if this was before they were sexually intimate. With friends, it would be a matter of when she thought she could trust them with so intimate a secret.

Post-op MTF's who can pass have a difficult choice to make. Some go for full immersion, moving to a new city with a new identity, and never telling anyone, including sexual partners, even going so far as to invent a past history to match their new identity. I strongly disapprove of this, though I do understand it. I believe a sexual partner has the right to know a person's sexual past; it would be like me trying to deny that I'd had sex with men before I started dating women exclusively.

My friend Jen, once she transitions, doesn't plan to tell anyone other her family; it's none of their damn business.

To make it short, for those who live as openly transgender, it isn't necessary. For those who don't, and who can pass, like Sissy, it's a matter of deciding when the other person needs to know, and certainly it should always be discussed before one gets physically intimate.

Sissy is out of surgery and in recovery, so I'll have to go for a while. They're going to let me peek in on her in the recovery room, but I can't stay, so I'll probably be back in a bit to address the last question or two and respond to the others. Thanks for your interest, this has been a good way to distract me from being worried about her :).

Gilda

No, it's shoes darlink... ;)

You sound like the best sister in the world, Gilda, for all your support towards your sister, etc. :thumbsup:

So glad to hear everything went well... I'm finding you've already answered some of my questions, and so now I'm just taking in all of these new, very useful information :)

I just peeked in on Sissy. I'd like to say she looks fine, but she doesn't; she's all bandaged up and the parts I could see are swollen (she had a couple of facial procedures, a tracheal shave and eyebrow lift, done at the same time as her genital surgery to save money). She may wake up in half an hour or it may take two or more, and she has to stay in recovery until then.

I'm in her room now, waiting. Grace and her surgeon tell me everything went fine, better than fine actually, they went very well with no complications, and all the tissue was very healthy and they expect it to heal well in its new configuration. I won't be completely relieved until she wakes up, though.

Back to business to distract myself. Grace is watching some basketball game and doesn't want to be disturbed right now.

Yes, although legally changing sex isn't automatic with the surgery, isn't even required in fact, and can be done earlier. Sissy had her name and legal sex changed at the same time. It went like this. We got the court order awarding me custody on a certain date, and she moved in with me on that exact date. She went full time (began living as a female 24/7) the next day, and hasn't worn men's clothes or done anything as a male since. Three months later, when she had finished her initial therapy and been diagnosed with gender identity disorder by a psychologist, we filed papers with the state where we live, her state of birth, and the federal government to legally change her sex and name. Her birth certificate was reissued by the state with her sex listed as female and with her new name, and her sex and name were changed legally on all state records and with the social security administration. She's been legally a female with her new name for more than three years now. She's legally female everywhere but Texas, Kansas, and Florida, because those states don't recognize the legality of sex changes.

The name and legal sex change can been done separately, and neither are actually required. Many change their legal sex and name sometime after going full time but before their genital surgery. On rare occasions, they don't change their legal sex at all. My friend Jen, for example, doesn't plan to change her legal sex, because the state where we live is a defense of marriage state (the same reason I can't legally marry Grace). Changing her status legally to female would dissolve her marriage as the law stands now.

Interestingly, the fact that Texas doesn't recognize sex changes has caused many same sex couples to go there to get married. Because a MTF, even one who is post op and legally female to the federal government, is still legally male there, she can marry another woman, but cannot marry a man, ie, in Texas, for a transsexual, same sex marriage is legal, but a heterosexual marriage is not.

It's meant to promote an understanding of how a transsexual feels. The idea is to try to imagine how you would feel if your male brain and sexual identity were in a female body. It would likely feel out of place, uncomfortable, even as if your body were hostile.

This is correct, at least according to the best current research. The part of the brain that says male/female is the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BST), which in men has nearly twice as many neurons as in women. Male to female transsexuals have been shown to have a BSTc that is consistent with that of a normal female, regardless of orientation. In other words, regardless of orientation, men have physically male brains, women have physically female brains, and MTF transsexuals have female brains. Post birth hormone levels seem to have no effect on the BSTc.

Interesting theory, but I haven't seen any evidence that would support it.

The best evidence seems to indicate, though it hasn't been proven yet, that the cause is a faulty hormone wash at about the 12th week after conception. Males are supposed to get an androgen heavy wash that signals their brains to develop into a male pattern. If this does not happen, it stays in it's default (female) state, and the baby is born with a male body and female brain. Subsequent hormone levels seem to have no effect on physical brain development.

There was an interesting case supporting the thoery that gender identity is fixed in the brain at birth, and not derived from socialization or hormones post-natal or at puberty. A pair of male identical twins were born, and there was an accident during circumcision that resulted in one having most of his penis accidently amputated. A doctor promoting the theory that gender identity is entirely socialized advised the parents to raise the child as a girl. They listened, and the remains of the penis were removed, female genitals constructed, and the child was raised as a girl. The parents were advised to overdo it, to dress him and socialize him in very feminine ways to emphasize her new sex. The doctor was essentially using the children as an experiment in socialization, which I find absolutely vile.

In any case, David rejecting the attempted programming at every turn, hating dresses and dolls and wanting to be more like his brother. Even at puberty, when he was given female hormones, he consistently felt as if there were something wrong with him and tried to reject the female programming that his parents and Dr. Quack tried to force on him. When it was revealed to him what was going on, he immediately took on a male persona, but it was too late, and a couple of years later comitted suicide. Short of having ovaries and a uterus, he had a female body in terms of physical structure and blood chemistry, yet his male brain still told him this was all wrong.

There is one type of genetic anomaly similar to what you describe here, called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS). An XY child concieved with AIS lacks the ability to produce and enzyme which allows her cells to process androgens (male hormones). She gets the hormone washes at six weeks (which signals physical sexual development) and twelve weeks (which signals brain sexual development), but because her body cannot process androgens at all, it develops into it's default form, which is female--all mammals are by default female unless altered in the womb by androgens. She's born with what appears to be normal female genitals, identified and raised as a girl. It isn't until puberty when she fails to begin menstruation or goes in for her first gynocological exam that it is discovered that she has no uterus or ovaries, just undescended and undeveloped testicles. Her nascent testicles are removed and she's usually given female hormones to help her develop normally, because her body is unable to produce any female hormones naturally. She develops as a physically normal female, and there have been no known cases I've read of in which an AIS woman desired sex reassirnment to be male.

I think a MTF guest on Oprah a month or so ago summed up the "how do you know?" question when she asked Oprah:

"How would you feel if you had a penis?"

I think that question (vice versa for males) can put this into perspective.

Normal male genitals aren't a malformation if they're on a man. They are if they're on a woman.

Heh. The part I liked best was when she asked a MTF who identified as lesbian and didn't want to have sex with men why she needed a vagina, to which the woman replied by asking Oprah why she needed a vagina.

Sissy is out of recovery! She's awake, and she's passed whatever criteria they have for recovery and they're bringing her to the room! Grace was there by her bed whe she woke up. I'm probably done for the night, but if anyone else has questions, feel free to post them. I'm here in her room, so if anyone wants to ask her something, I'd be happy to relay the questions tomorrow and post the results.

Gilda

I'd heard of this case as well and it horrifed me as well.

Thanks for the info.

I have heard that the brain is actually formed differently than a males at birth. If a "female" is female genetalia-wise, but her brain is formed like a males, then "she" might actually have that urge to BECOME male. I don't have a source to back that up, but I remember hearing about it.

I, personally, have no questions about this thread. I have watched many Discovery Health programmes about MtF and FtM transsexuals. In fact, I remember watching one programme about two siblings, a girl and boy, who BOTH switched genders. :]

Edit: I have just one question, actually, specific to this case: How did your sister tell your parents? And were they supportive?

Wow...that was the exact plot of either CSI or Law and Order about a week ago :eek: Except then the twins killed the doctor.

I had two questions, when you get a moment. First of all, are MTF transgenders primarily attracted to men or women, or is there no 'common' orientation?

Second, if it is that 'easy' to legally change your gender, why are same-sex couples not utilizing that as a marriage loophole? I understand the theory behind wanting to be legally allowed to marry, but it seems like at least ONE or two couples would 'play the system' in this way.

*edit: Found a link to an article about the episode of Law and Order: SVU that I saw...turns out it was a rerun. Still a very thought provoking piece, though. http://www.intersexinitiative.org/news/000172.html *

i've been lurking this discussion...nothing really to add in terms of content at the moment, but i wanted to recognize gilda's effort in bringing a great discussion to this board... perhaps the one question/comment i would raise is one more about community and idenity. GBLT and it's later incarnations, GBLTQ, GBLTQA, GBLTQIQ, etc...all implcitly link trans idenity with queer idenity and community. to what extent do you think this is reality? are trans individuals really welcome in queer space? does this language help us be allies to each other, or does it collapse differences? just a few things that crossed my mind...

that, and you're being a fantastic sister. i've always thought that with a few good allies, nearly anything is possible. best wishes to sissy in her recovery. :)

No common orientation.

Thanks for all the information, Gilda. The brain differences are particularly good information for everybody to know. I'm glad Sissy is doing well and I wish her the best. She's so lucky to have a sister like you!

I can see how MTF would be a lot more challenging socially than FTM. It's not very fair how men are not given the same kind of flexibility that women are. I have never really been a perfect fit with the female gender role, but as someone who hasn't felt that sort of deep dissatisfaction with their actual sexual identity, I can probably never truly understand what it's like. I've known plenty of bisexual and gay people, cross-dressers and the like, but not any transgendered (as far as I know). I certainly think I'm an open-minded person when it comes to these sorts of issues.

Then again I wouldn't blink or look twice at a man dressed as a woman, a woman dressed as a man, a couple dressed as small children, a hermaphrodite dressed as a trapeze artist, or whatever. It must be the area where I live. :p

This has been very informative for me, I've learned a lot about a topic I knew absolutely nothing about and was pretty closed minded and even hostile to before hand. Now that I know more about this I am more open to it and understand it a lot better. I'm actually kind of embarrased about how I used to look at transsexuals.

With that said, I would still probably find it hard to be in a relationship with a girl if she had been male before... I don't know though, it would depend on the situation.

This is pretty close to what the current science seems to indicate. There are male brains and female brains, and MTFs have brains, specifically a BSTc (an area of the hypothalamus) that are like women's brains.

I asked Sissy the first part during the brief time she was awake earlier. Her answer: "I told them every damn time the subject ever came up in my entire life. You know that!" She told them for the first time when she was three, I think, when mom was trying to teach her how boys and girls are different, and once she understood the difference, she kept insisting that she was a girl, or should be a girl, or wanted to be a girl. The only concession she made growing up was to say that she was a boy, but wanted to be a girl (even though she believed, even in childhood, that she was a girl who somehow had the wrong parts). She was so feminine as a child that she left a residue of femininity behind when she left the room that people could sense for days afterwards. This upset my parents, so eventually they just stopped listening. The tried to force her to be a boy, but it never worked, and she "rebelled" by continuing to be feminine despite the army soldiers and race cars and rockets they gave her to play with; she was always more interested in playing dolls or tea party with Katie (my twin sister) and me than any typically boy activities. If you told her girls do X, but boys do Y, she wanted to do X; and my parents did plenty of instruction in how boys and girls are supposed to behave, with the result of teaching her how to act like a stereotypical female. It came to a head when she was 14 and started being strongly attracted to boys. She ran away to come to be with me, I sued for custody, a suit I would have lost, but I had to try anyway, and after a very brief and nasty court fight, during which I was given interim custody pending the outcome, they decided they didn't want her anymore. It was better to have no child than a "perverted freak", their way of describing Sissy and me for being gay. They still think of Sissy as a gay man and not a straight woman. We've essentially been disowned.

Let me put it this way. My father's brother is a covicted child molester who will serve the rest of his life in jail, and my father visits him in prison once a month, but hasn't talked to me or Sissy in four years.

Orientation is spread; some are attracted to females, some to males, and some to both.

There are some trends. MTFs who transition in their teens are far more likely to begin attracted to males and to be heterosexual (attracted to males) post transition than homosexual, though just as with natal females, there are those who are homosexual post transition. I've read that the proportion is the same as with natal females, or some 3-5% are homosexual post transition, but have seen no evidence to back up this claim. Those who transition later in life and who are initially attracted to males retain that orientation.

Those who are initially attracted to females and transition as adults are the hardest to pin down. Many have had several sexual relationships with women, and are often married with children. My friend Jen is married, but has no children. Her wife is staying with her through her transition. MTF's who are in a long term committed relationship with a woman usually stay oriented towards women, or may become bisexual. Jen was warned by her therapist that when the estrogen she was taking started interacting with her female brain, she might start finding herself being attracted to the fellas.

Those who aren't in a relationship with a woman may remain oreinted towards women, may change orientations and become attracted to men, or may find themselves bisexual. What little I've read seems to indicate that bisexual is the most common result, but again, there have been no formal studies that I know of, so this is just anecdote and guesswork.

The same thing sometimes happens with SRS; a MTF who has never been attracted to men may find herself wanting to have sex with straight men once she has the proper equipment to do so.

It isn't complicated, but you do have to prove that you intend to live the rest of your life as the target gender. In Sissy's case, we had the court order granting me custody, a letter from a psychologist diagnosing her as gender dysphoric, and an affadavit from her principal and counselor stating that she'd been been going to school full time as a girl, and even with all that, we had to wait until she'd been full time for six months.

I'm sure some have tried and failed, while others may have used this, but for the most part, people don't do it because it's dishonest and such dishonesty only makes things more difficult for everyone who wants equal rights for gays and the transgendered. In additon, changing your sex legally would mean notifying your employer of your new legal sex, which can cause all kinds of problems if you aren't actually living as that sex.

Actually, I'm very curious about how both a lesbian and transsexual came from the same family. My hair stylist and his twin sister are both gay and I'm sure there are other instances of families in which more than one sibling is non-hetero, for lack of a better term.
I'm sorry you don't have the unconditional love due you and your sister.

Unfortunately, the T part of GLBT seems to often be added as a matter of form, just because it's expected, but without any concern for the rights and needs of transsexuals. Last year, the HRC, an advocacy group for gay rights, gave in to pressure to leave transsexual rights out of their official lobbying position. Their rationale was that it would inhibit the chance of getting equal rights for gays, and when that goal is achived, they can move on to transsexuals and other targeted groups. The problem is that by removing the sections devoted to promoting equal rights for the transgendered, they ended up doing the opposition's work for them by pitting gays against the transgendered, when we should be working together. I want to be able to marry Grace legally, but not at the expense of my sister's basic human rights.

My freind Jen and her wife once went to a gay bar, assuming that this would be a place where Jen could go en femme and they'd be accepted, and were made to feel very unwelcome, because they were, in the eyes of many of the lesbians anyway, a straight couple. The gay guys, on the other hand, were much more welcoming.

We (gays and lesbians) do have in common with transsexuals that we don't fit into the traditional binary view of human sexuality. My experience has been that gay guys are much more accepting of transsexuals than lesbians, a significant minority of which are just as intolerant, or even more so, of the transgendered as the general populace, but then again my experience has been that the man-hating lesbians tend not to like anyone other than other man-haters, so this is actually fairly consistent.

I have found, and again, this is my personal experience and not based on research or anything like that, that transsexuals, when they need this type of emotional support, tend to find it primarily with other transsexuals, and what's more, they group themselves by sex, ie the MTFs associate with other MTfs and the FTM's with other FTM's. This makes sense, as the general issues they face are similar, but the specific ones are far different, and the two groups sometimes seem to make each other uncomfortable, for the obvious reasons.

She's doing well. She slept about 20 of the last 24 hours, and she's still swollen and has tubes stuck in her all over the place, but Grace and the nurses tell me she's doing fantastic, and I trust Grace in all things, so I just accept that she's doing well. When she's awake she's just radiating joy despite feeling sore everywhere from her naval to her knees.

A big part of it has to do with how easy it is to pass. Sissy is lucky in that she had a late onset of puberty and started hormone therapy early enough to greatly inhibit the development of masculine features. She's never had difficulty passing and never gets read.

A great many MTF's aren't as lucky. Most don't transition until adulthood, after masculine features have developed, and once this occurs, it's very difficult to mask them entirely. Hormones help, but don't affect beard growth, don't elminate body hair, have no effect on the voice, and cannot alter the skeleton.

For a FTM, it's much easier to pass. Male hormones make major changes to the female physiology, inducing beard growth, thickening body hair, thickening vocal cords and deepening the voice, and allowing for the development of much more muscle mass. It isn't unusual for FTMs to become body builders. The biggest hurdles for a FTM are height--they're about six inches shorter on average than the average man--and breast development, which requires binding or surgery to remove fatty tissue. But generally, FTM's are nearly impossible to distiquish from any other relatively short man, while MTF's tend to have many more tells. That, plus the fact that in our culture, a man in a dress is a joke, and a woman in jeans and a t-shirt is everyday casual wear.

To put it more simply, FTM's have it easier in every way except for genital surgery, which isn't to say it's easy; it's still extraordinarily difficult, but MTF's who want to pass have a much more difficult row to hoe.

You certainly sound like it, and I'm glad there are gradually becoming more and more people like you out there.

Actually, transgender is a catch all-phrase for anyone who actively adopts aspects of the opposite sex for whatever reason, and includes cross-dressers. Transsexual refers specifically to those whose gender identity is the opposite of their anatomical sex and who seek sex reassignment, with or without genital surgery, as a result, regardless of where they are in the transition process. My friend Jen is a transsexual, even though she currently is living as a man and does not intend to go full time for another year yet.

That's an interesting observation. It could be either genetic or environmental. The studies done on MTF transsexual brains seem to indicate a pre-natal environmental cause, a faulty hormone wash at about the 12th week after conception, and at least a couple of studies I've read theorize that hormones in the womb may have a profound impact on other aspects of human sexuality.

Or it could just be a coincidence. My twin was bisexual, I think, and my other siblings who are sexually mature seem to all be straight

Unfortunately, the world is filled with homophobes and religious bigots like my parents. Fortunately, there are also a great many people like my in-laws, who give Sissy and me the unconditional love our parents deny us.

Gilda... I've scanned looking for an answer to this question but didn't see one.

The question I have is more mechanical. Can a postop M to F transexual orgasm? If yes, how? If the answer is no, that seems like a siginificant sacrifice. I am not sure if could live in a life with no orgasm.

Does sex play into a MTF's choice at all? Or is it solely personal idendity?

What I mean is, does your sister hope to meet an average joe kinda guy and start a family with him as the happy home making figure? Or go out with someone who has walked a similar path?

Short answer: Sometimes. It depends greatly upon, in order of importance the technique used, the skill of the surgeon, and the age at which the surgery takes place.

That's not much help, I know, so on to the long answer.

Long answer:

When sexual reassignment surgery was first attempted in the 20's and 30's, the answer was without a doubt certainly not. The surgery at the time was very crude, consisted of a simple removal of the penis and testicles, leaving no sexual function whatsoever. What was left would have been essentially an empty area where most people have genitals.

When the first attempts were made to fashion female genitalia, there was a very high mortality rate due to infection and/or blood loss, and there was no sexual sensation from the genitals whatsoever. Yet people still wanted it.

I point this out to illustrate that transwomen, knowing this, would still seek SRS in higher numbers than there were avaialble surgeons--they were willing give up any sexual function whatsoever and to risk death to have a body that matched their internal gender, it was so important to their psychological well being.

Modern techniques are much, much safer and more advanced. There are two goals in SRS. The first is cosmetic; genitals that look natural. The second is function, both practical and sexual. In practical terms, being able to pee correctly is very important. But your question was about sexual funtionality, so let's get to that.

First, though lets take a brief look at how natal women get sexual pleasure, because we are talking about women here, not men, and women get sexual pleasure differently from men. Natal woman have many more erogenous areas than men, but let's narrow it down to six for this discussion. First, a woman's skin is more sensitive throughout her entire body. Second, women's nipples are sexually sensitive; indeed, some women can have an orgasm solely through nipple stimulation. Third, the clitoris, which is the woman's glans, and which develops from the same tissue as the glans in a man's penis. Fourth, the labia, which are formed from the same tissue that becomes a mans scrotum. Fifth, the interior of the vagina. Women have a g-spot, located inside the vagina roughly next to the interior of the body wall just behind the fat pad on a womans lower belly. Sixth, the anus, which is hit or miss, some liking it and others not, and which is essentially the same for both sexes, but with an important difference, which I'll get to in a minute.

Now let's look at these one by one. Hormones change the skin. Since skin is fully renewed periodically, over a period of years, the elevated estrogen levels and lowered testosterone levels soften and thin the skin, help develop a thin layer of fat, thin body hair, and some report, cause the skin to take on a bright, almost transluscent appearance. This is the only way in which the MTF will have function that is identical to a natal woman. She will have female skin.

Second, nipple sensation increases greatly with breast development, but as with everything else related to the breasts, it likely isn't the same as it would have been in a natal woman. This depends very highly upon when hormone treatment begins; those who begin in their teens, like Sissy, tend to get a much better response, both in terms of size and appearance, and in terms of sexual sensitivity and ability to produce milk than those who begin treatment much later, like my friend Jen, who began treatment in her mid thirties

I'm going to skip ahead to number six for a moment. This is the one area in which an MTF has an advantage over a natal woman. The transwoman still has her prostate gland, and it still responds to stimulation through anal sex.

Now on to number four. Let's stop for a moment, and look at how a woman gets pleasure from vaginal penetration. First, for many women, perhaps most, the sensation of being penetrated, all by itself, is pleasurable, even if it never leads to orgasm. On the physical side, vaginal sex by itself seldom leads to orgasm. Why? Mostly it's because, save for the g-spot, there is no sensation inside a woman's vagina. Sexual stimulation during vaginal sex occurs primarily as a result of friction on the labia minora during thrusting. There are positions that can simultaneously stimulate the clit, or possibly the g-spot, but for the most part, the sensation occurs at the surface. And keep in mind that much of the pleasure is psychological, a result of the penetration itself making the woman "feel like a woman".

Now let's take a moment and look at the neo-vagina of a MTF. Modern SRS surgery uses skin from the shaft of the penis, turned inside out, as the lining of the neo-vagina. As a general rule, the MTF will get about an inch less vaginal depth than the pre-op erect lenght of her penis. This has in the past been unsatisfactory, so most surgeons currently use a graft either from the scrotal tissue or, in some cases, the colon to give additonal depth.

First, and more importantly, this gives the MTF the ability to be penetrated like a woman. This psychological element is all by itself very important, as it, as with a natal woman, can make her "feel like a woman", and feeling female is the most important part of this for most. But here the MTF has a slight advantage over the natal woman. We have physical sensation only at the "top" or entrance to the vagina, while the MTF has physical sensation all along the interior wall of her vagina, "top to bottom" so to speak. She doesn't have a g-spot, so it may overall be a wash.

Last there is the clit. The first penile inversion surgeries merely used the skin from the shaft, including the glans, which tended to lose much of it's sensation and also tended to be hard to stimulate way down at the "bottom" of the vaginal canal. A cosmetic clit might be formed using a skin graft, but it was non-funtional.

The most modern technique, now almost univerally used, reuses the glans penis as the new glans clitoris. At first it was just severed then reattached in the appropriate place, which destroyed most of the sensation. Within the last ten years, however, a new technique was developed, called a pedicled sensate clitoris. Instead of just removing the skin from the shaft of the penis then severing it, most of the spongosa, or spongy erectile tissue, is scraped off, leaving some blood vessels and nerves still attached to the glans. This is the pedicle. The nerves and blood vessels are in effect folded up and the glans whittled down to the appropriate size and reattached in the appropriate place, blood vessels and nerves intact. This usually enables it to retain much, if not all, of it's sexual response, and can later be stimulated directly as with a natal woman's clitoris. It isn't nearly as sensitive as a natal woman's, but it can, if all goes well, be as sensitive as it was when it was still a part of the penis.

This does, however lead to some strange body sensations post op. The brain has a physical map of where the body parts are, and that doesn't change instantly; it takes some time to catch up. The shaft of the penis may be inside of the body and the glans on the exterior body wall, but for awhile anyway, the brain still thinks the glans is attached to the end of the shaft which is outside the body wall. After awhile the body does adjust to the new locations.

What this means is that sex for a transwoman post op is very, very similar to that for a natal woman, though not exactly the same. Some women are easily orgasmic, some orgasm with difficulty, some never at all. Transwomen on average find it more difficult than natal women, and universally more difficult than they did as males.

Most transwomen, especially those of the more skilled surgeons like Sissy's, report sexual sensation and response. Many report the ability to orgasm--follow up studies by Sissy's surgeon seem to indicate a little more than half are able to orgasm and all have some sexual response. For psychological reasons, it's likely that sexual response is overreported.

But for some, perhaps more than half, orgasm is something that is sacrificed. Keep in mind, though, that these are women, not men, and for a great many women, sex need not lead to orgasm to be satisfying, both physically and psychologically. This may even been more prevalent among transwomen, for whom the ability to have any kind of sex in the female position is going to be psychologically confirming their identity as women.

Most transwomen who report the ability to orgasm find it easier pre-op than post op, but in both cases, report the gradual cessation of male orgasms which are gradually replaced by female orgasms. They also tend to report a dimished libido, and many report a diminished sexual response, though the degree varies greatly, and much of it is psychological in nature. The psychological component is that getting an erection frequently makes preop transwomen very uncomfortable, and this occasionally can occur even post orchiectomy, in the complete absense of testicles. This occurs pre-op.

While some have expressed doubts that the physical sensations are different for the male and female orgasms, I have no problem believing it. I know that my clitoral orgasms feel a lot different from my g-spot orgasms, and I've read of women who report a third kind from nipple stimulation. Post-op, the ability to orgasm tends to virtually disappear for awhile, but as the new genitals heal, they tend to gradually recover sensation. But almost all give something up pre-op to post op.

Well, it's been a few months and I have a few more questions.

First off, I feel like pointing out that I was cringing during the description of that surgery and I'm not a squeamish individual. Your sister is very brave.

Which leads to question 1; how is she doing? We're a month in after the surgery now.. I imagine recovery is a long and difficult process encouraging news would be good for me at the very least.

And aside from that, you mention male and female orgasms which sort of makes me wonder. I realize that the testicles are removed during surgery, making the individual infertile, but is it possible for a post-op transexual to ejaculate?

In any case, good luck and good health to both of you and all other parties involved.

It differs from person to person. There isn't any one profile or even, as Ray Blanchard and Michael Bailey like to claim, two. There's a large range of degrees of sexualization in the process.

First, let me dismiss with the ridiculous theories of Ray Blanchard and Michael Bailey. They are quacks who manipulate data to fit into a theory proposed first by Blanchard which has been dismissed by the mainstream gender therapeutic community and which stands up to neither common sense nor scientific scrutiny. The basic theory is that MTF's are actually men, either homosexuals who transition so they can have sex with men, or heterosexuals who transition as a result of a fetish with women's clothes and bodies. I could explain what's wrong with this in detail, but it's irrelevant. The key problem is that they classify all into two narrowly defined clasifications and deny the existense of a gender identity that exists separately from sex drive. It's been thoroughly debunked.

For the vast majority, the primary motivating factor is internal gender identity, and an overpowering desire to live in the social role of their internal gender.

I say vast majority, because there is a small number of MTF's who identify young as effeminate gay men and who transition not, they say, because of an internal gender identity, but because of a desire to be accepted socially in a role that allows them to have sex with men. This fits with Blanchard's theory, but only a small subset of younger transsexuals really fit this descritpion. In other words, for this subset, it's easier to be a straight woman than a gay man. They call themselves "homosexual transsexuals" a label invented by Blanchard.

I asked Sissy what she thought of the lable once. She said she's a girl who likes guys. That's heterosexual. My friend Jen likes girls; she's the homosexual transsexual, or, as she prefers to identify, the transsexual lesbian.

Good question. Sissy is into straight guys, and hopes to find a traditionally masculine man to marry and have a family with, though she has no intention to be a homemaker. She just finished her freshman year of college, and plans to either become a psychologist or a doctor.

Most younger transsexuals tend to be heterosexual, that is, attracted to men, and tend to develop relationships with straight men.

For older transsexuals, those who transition as adults, it's a lot less consistent. Most are attracted to women pre-transition, have had relationships with women, sometimes being married with children.

After transition, it's a crap shoot. Many, especially those who are in a long term relationship with a woman, retain their orientation towards women, which is to say they are homosexual. However, as the female hormones start interacting with their female brains, some who've never found men attractive start finding guys to be more sexually stimulating, and end up bisexual. Some even change orientation completely and find themselves attracted solely to guys. Some may have had repressed attraction to men in the first place that then surfaces as it becomes more acceptable in their minds to be attracted to men.

And some are asexual in terms of orientation both before and after transition.

The same effect tends to happen pre and post SRS. Some older transsexuals who begin oriented to women, and stay oriented to women after hormone treatments and a transition to a female social role find themselves suddently wanting to use their new vagina post op, if only to know what sex with a man as a woman is like. Some have the surgery and never engage in sex with man. My friend Jen, who began treatment about a year ago and is out at home but not at work, is still happily married to her wife, whom she married as a man, and still finds the idea of sex with a man repulsive. Despite this, she fully intends to have SRS when she's saved the money and complete her one year RLE.

Some have relationships with their wives/girlfriends, who tend to be otherwise straight, some with men. Some, particularly those who transition late and have difficulty passing, have difficulty finding a partner of either sex who will accept them. Some do end up with other transsexuals.

So it varies, with no one single pattern being evident, except with those who transition in their teens (which are a small minority). Most do intend to use their new vagina sexually, but that doesn' mean it's about sexual desire. For many it's about affirming their identity as women, and for some it's just about having a vagina, about feeling complete as a woman.

For the record, though, many keep their penis and testicles post transition, or sometimes just have the testicles removed. Some lose the desire to have SRS after their testicles are removed because they cease to view their penis as a sexual organ.

There is even a new procedure that has been developed for those who don't desire vaginal sex post op. Basically the labia and clitoris are formed, but no neo-vagina. It creates the appearance of female genitals with female urination, and a sensate clitoris, but no cavity, enabling the woman to have non-penetrative lesbian sex. It's safer, less time consuming, easier to care for (a vagina is a high-maintenance organ, whether natural or man-made) and costs about half as much. Referencing Jen again, she wants the whole thing. She told me once, that being penetrated doesn't have to involve a man, a statement that I am in complete agreement with.

To sum up: Sex usually plays some role in transitioning, and in the desire to have SRS, but the degree varies and is secondary to gender identity.

That she is, though it isn't the mechanics of the surgery, but the long, difficult recovery that is the scary part. She hated her penis, and always had, and it was good riddance when it came time for surgery.

She's doing wonderfully. I've posted bits and pieces in my journal, but she's up and mostly healed, and is now jogging around the exercise track and working out at the gym again. She still tires easily, though. When we went to Six Flags last week, she rode around in one of those scooters to avoid fatigue, and still got so worn out we had to leave early, which for use means after about 10 hours instead of at closing.

Some have the testicles removed earlier, which is called an orchiectomy. Sissy did, shortly after she turned 18 and could have it done legally. This is, by the way, a relatively minor procedure done outpatient with local anaesthesia. It is possible to ejaculate after orchiectomy, as most of the fluid produced in male ejaculation comes from the prostate gland and not the testicles, though the volume and viscosity tends to decreas over time. The same thing happens without removal. The combination of high dose estrogen and androgen blockers, which lower testosterone levels, tends to shut down testicle function over time. Even in the absense of surgery, the lack of testosterone and higher estrogen levels will gradually dissolve the testicles, although this takes some ten to twenty years, and most do have them removed before then, if only to reduce the chance of testicular cancer, which is greatly increased by estrogen therapy.

Post-op, no there's no way to ejaculate. Most transwomen cannot produce any kind of lubrication, though a small number do. The source of this lubrication is a mystery.

Thank you. I'll pass it on.

I've heard this term used for transexual and I haven't been able to figure out what the meaning of it. What's Pre-op and Post-op??

Growing up in a very liberal Christian household, I'd always been accepting of Gay and Lesbian people. But that upbringing also brought with it a slight feeling of constraint when it came to Transvestitites/Transgenders/Transsexual peoples, because I was raised with this belief that "God made us who we are." I wasn't against these people in any way, and I supported what they wanted to do with their bodies, I just felt a certain uneasiness in the matter.

This thread however, has given me some really useful, insightful information that has definitely helped me to come to a greater acceptance of the topic.

So, thanks a bunch, Gilda.

The terms refer to whether the transsexual has had sexual reassignement surgery (SRS). Pre-op, or pre-operative, refers to transwoman who still have male genitals. Some will have an orchiectomy, removing the testicles, for medical or aesthetic reasons before SRS, but they are still pre-op. Post-op, or post-operative, refers to those who have had SRS, and thus have genitals of their desired sex.

Though you didn't ask, I do refer to pre and post transition a lot, so I'll briefly explain that. Pre-transition refers to the time period during which the transsexual is living as their birth sex, and post-transition refers to the time period during which they are living as their desired sex. The transition time varies somewhat; some don't go full time (begin living as a woman 24/7) until a year or two after they begin treatment, some begin right away. For some, there's an identifiable coming out day, while for others they'll go full time in one place but not another.

Sissy was one who went full time very early on, and had one of those D-Days I referred to above. She came to live with me one day, went full time the next, and has never lived as a male since. Such a one-day transition is, I think, rare, but does occur. In some cases, it happens at the end of a year or two, or more, of treatment.

For older transsexuals, which is most of them, transsitioning gradually, coming out at home but not at work is a very common pattern. They'll start living their personal lives as a woman, but hold off on transitioning at work as they practice and get used to living in the social role elsewhere, and come out at work later on. This is where Jen is; she goes to work as a man, but comes home and chages into her female persona. Over the next year she plans to come out to her family and next year at her job.

Curiously, some transition at work first, especially those who have an understanding workplace. Melanie Daniels did it this way so as to make the transition easier on her children, changing on her way to work then on her way home again each night.

hmm.. I read most of this thread, but you know it’s long and started to skip over the latter parts. I’m going to use “she/her” in my post not to be disrespectful, but because the quotations represent a certain level all be it a low one of uncomfortably with the word that I can’t quite shake.

cliffs: u have twin sister and a younger brother. your younger brother turned out to be chick trapped in dude's body or something. u = gay and your parents disowned you both.

how about your other sister do you and your younger "sister" still speak w/ her and is she on good terms with your parents still?

A. SRS - my thoughts wow... what a world we live in where shit like that is possible probably some end of the world shit in the bible about this kind of man playing god stuff.

Why is it so cheap in Thailand? / is it more accepted there if they have trans-strippers? {i don't think trans-strippers would go over to well here}

Also when you say voice therapy.
Is there surgery to help that?
or is it just you have to learn to sound like a chick?
{does a noticeable dude’s voice slip out once in a while?}

B. $$$ - "she" ever consider not getting SRS because it would just cost to damn much?

What does “she” do to afford this?!?

P.S. didn’t San Francisco pass legislation requiring company medical insurance to pay for gender re-assignment surgery or something like that (might have been worth checking into)

C. Relationships - So "she's straight" that must suck as I can't imagine there are too many guys out there who would want to be intimate with a girl that used to be a guy.
What does “she” do?
Take it in the butt and give oral? {i can only assume she doesn't want to do dudes as she's getting her cock removed}
Has “she” ever found a straight guy down with this?
What about when the vagina is formed will “she” still tell men the truth before intimacy?
Does it get wet? If so HOW and more than likely I don’t want to know.

D. Congrats – it sounds to me like your “sister” caught a tough break in life and is making the best of it. That said it could’ve been a lot worse. It sounds to me like you caught it early as “she” was a CLEAR case which helped things a lot.

Good job big sis there is a very good chance you saved your little bro’s life possibly mortally, but in overall quality almost for sure. **Props from Luni**
However, do you think you would’ve ever been able to sympathize as much as you did if you yourself didn’t have some gender issues? {maybe, but did your twin sister?}

I kind of laughed when you said “she” was prettier than you, I’d love to see a picture of you and her together and see if I could pick out which one was which, but I understand your interest in privacy.

Well you said you’d answer trans questions I think I had a bunch, but I don’t know how well structured they were in there. If you do answer this post good luck lol :D

Gilda,

That was an awesome response and explanation, thanks a lot.

While I think the quotation marks are unnecessary, I appreciate your being courteous enough to at least use feminine pronouns when talking about my sister. That's more than many people who have the same discomfort do.

Not quite. My twin sister and I were the oldest of nine children. She died in a car accident 13 years ago. I have three younger sisters and four younger brothers. One of my sisters, Sissy, was born physically male with a female gender identity and has changed her physical sex and social role to match her true gender. She lives with me and has since I got her away from my parents in a custody fight three years ago, and my parents have disowned us. And yes, I am homosexual.

If you're referring to my twin, she died some time back. I have contact and am on good terms with one of my brothers, who just finished high school. The other five are all still school-aged and my parents won't me or Sissy any contact with them. My youngest sister just turned six and knows me and Sissy only through pictures of us that are years old, from before we "betrayed" the family.

Occupying cross-gender roles predates Christianity. There have been transsexuals in the social sense for thousands of years. The only difference now is that medical science has advance to the point that medical and surgical treatment have caught up with a problem that is thousands of years old.

I don't see it as playing God any more than any other surgery to correct a birth defect is.

Two reasons. It's much more commonly performed, and everything labor based is cheaper in Thailand by a large degree, including surgery.

Yes, transsexuality is much more accepted there, and there is a thriving sex trade built around it, both in terms of trassexual shows and prostitution.

Drag clubs can and do in fact do quite well in the US, and the performers are chiefly either drag queens (gay men) or pre-op transsexuals.

Yes, laser vocal cord ablasion. It's new and experimental, and produces inconsistent results at best, tending to produce squeaky unnatural sounding voices.

This is the primary method, learning to speak like a woman. It involves adjusting pitch, tonal quality, inflection, speaking speed, and even word choice.

Durng the initial learning phase, keeping a consistently feminine voice can be difficult. Sissy got it rather quickly, and hasn't spoken in a male voice in more than three years. She never went through a phase of switching, and it's entirely possible she may have lost access to her male voice. She doesn't slip, and never really has. Her female voice is what is natural for her; speaking with a male voice would take some effort, I think.

Jen switches back and forth, male at work and female everywhere else, and can do so with the ease of flipping a light switch. She did have a point early on when she'd slip on rare occasion going both ways. She tells about how one weekend after months of hard work, trying slight variations, it just clicked, and she had access to a female voice that was convincing and effortless to maintain. Upon going back to work the next week, she found she couldn't access her male voice. It was gone, and she began to panic; she wasn't ready to come out at work. After working on it in the car on the way, some ten to fifteen minutes later, she found her male voice again. Since that time, she's been able to use either one at will.

Nope. It was going to happen eventually, depending upon how long it took her to save the money.

She's a full-time college student. My wife and I paid for it.

As I understand it, it was only city employees who were covered by the legislatiion, not anyone, though my memory of that is a bit shaky.

Transsexual surgery is generally excluded as elective cosmetic surgery. None of the major insurance corporations are willing to cover it, and I personally think their reasoning is at best specious.

There are indeed many for whom this is a deal breaker, but there are a surprising number who just don't care.

Transsexual lesbians have a much more difficult time, as lesbians are a much smaller portion of the population than straight men, and tend to be, in my experience, very unaccepting of MTF transsexuals. Feminist activists tend to be the same way. The most commonly stated reasons are that MTF's are men who are trying to "infiltrate their sex" and not really women.

First, she's post-op by a couple of months now.

I don't know the details of her intimate sex life, as she doesn't share that with me, and I wouldn't repeat that here if she did. That's a matter for her and the young gentleman, or her and her therapist.

However, crudely though you may have put it, your assumptions regarding how a pre-op transsexual has sex are probably fairly accurate. Most, if not all, young transsexuals do tend to be bottoms in their relationships with men. Many find discomfort at getting erections, and take medication to reduce or eliminate them.

Yes. During the school year, the weekend when she doesn't have a date is quite rare. She tells the boys when they reach a level of emotional intimacy where that is warranted, and always does so either in a public place or most often with me and Grace present for her protection.

Enough young transsexuals have been raped or murdered upon the discovery or revelation of their birth sex that there is now even a legal defense to this specific motive fore assault/murder, called trans panic. It's been successful at least twice. On average, one transgender woman a month is murdered, a small number on it's face, but a huge proportion. Transsexual women have the highest murder rate of any demographic, three times that of young black males.

That's up to her.

Personally I think the same standards should apply as to a natal woman. Under what circumstances should a woman reveal to her partner the intimate details of her past, especially those that are emotionally sensitive? That's the standard I think should apply.

I think she should before forming an emotionally intimate commitment to a man, as I think being honest about your sexual history is important to forming a strong relationship.

Again, I'm not going into Sissy specifically, but I can answer in general terms.

I assume you're asking about lubrication. The answer is that the glands that produce lubrication in a natal female, chiefly the Skene's glands (also responsible for female ejaculation) are absent in transwomen. The tissue that forms these glands in women becomes the prostate gland in men. Also, the interior of the vagina in a transwoman is bare skin instead of a mucous membrane. So no, in the vast majority, no natural lubrication occurs. Some small number do report some, but it isn't clear where this comes from.

If the lining of the neo-vagina is formed from a section of colon, then there is some natural lubrication as a result, as the colon is itself a mucuous membrane. This procedure is rare, however, with the penile inversion being much more common.

Immediately post op, the neo-vagina does tend to excrete fluids and bits of tissue as extraneous tissues and fluids involved in the healing process are eliminated, but after the neo-vagina is fully dilated and healed, this stops, and typically no further secretions or excretions will occur.

Yes, it was "caught early", at about the age of four. The fortunate thing is that we were able to begin medical treatment when she was 16, and in medical terms the earlier you begin, the better the physical results.

It was a team effort, and Sissy did the most difficult part by far. But I agree, being able to transition did very likely save her life, and without a doubt made her a happier, more well adjusted person.

Maybe it helped me to sympathize, maybe not. Many lesbians have as much, if not more difficulty accepting transsexuals as women for reasons stated above.

Grace has never had any problem with Sissy's condition, and she's never had any gender or orientation issues.

Katie was bisexual as a teen. Growing up, the two of us were both delighted to let Sissy do girl stuff with us, so I have no doubt that she would have been neither surprised nore would she have objected to Sissy's being transsexual.

No pictures of Sissy for reasons of privacy and personal protection, but there are two of me in my profile. But I can say that you wouldn't read her if you saw her on the street--nobody ever has--or for that matter in any other context. Intimate partners wouldn't be able to tell unless she told them. Short of a chromosome test or gynocological exam, she is indistiquishable from any other teenage girl. Except that she's smarter, prettier, and nicer than most. And I'm not saying that just because I'm a biased big sister.

Thanks. I think I understood all of your questions well enough. If there's anything I misinterpreted feel free to clarify.

Gilda

Most people do; it's a natural reaction if you're not a member of the community. Hell, I'm still a little uneasy when I go into a gay bar myself, as I'm not really a part of the scene.

You're welcome. Thanks for the kind comment.

Gilda

I have found this to be very informative, and enlightening, and I appreciate the baring of several souls, most of which aren't here to defend or define themselves, as the case may be.

I have only one question. I work in healthcare and we had a MTF transgendered individual who was listed on her chart as a female. My only issue with this is that there are a few diseases, i.e. hemophilia, color blindness, that are gender specific. Also, diagnostic workups are often gender specific. Am I wrong to say that this patient should have been registered by their birth sex, in accordance with the diseases that they are most likely to present with? I realize that the best way to deal with it is to have a transgendered catagory, but here in the armpit of the south, I'm afraid the definition of liberal thought is to not make fun of your buddy if he opts for a Bud Light instead of the full flavor version.
Just a thought, and I'm curious how communities with larger transgendered populations deal with this.
Thanks Gilda!
And love to the girls.(all of them:))

Wow… unusually high amount of sexual “disorders” in your family? Where your parents involved in drugs in anyway that may have changed balances during pregnancy?

My point
If “she” were to not tell somebody first, and have sex with them.
“She’s” now at a much higher risk for that stuff you talk about, if he finds out afterwards!
I could see somebody having a trans-panic. Not that I think they should kill “her”, but i would say they would likely feel deceived and might lose their cool.

Or just as bad

That guy might fall in love and want to enter a serious relationship.
Now “she” would be conflicted because “she” probably likes the guy, but doesn’t want to jeopardize the relationship.
What if he asked her to Marry her?
“She” can’t have biological children or anything like that. He would figure it out sooner or later.

I think she should alwasy tell.

I sypathize, because people that are intrested in that are probobally intrested in it as a sextual thing and not really looking for a relationship.

Tough call best of luck. If I ask you out tell me!

All I’m saying is that I as a previously not sketched out
(didn’t really know there where “girls” out there of college age and especially not ones that are supposed to be hot!)
Currently way sketched out dude. I would like to know!

P.S. If “she” goes to either WSU or UI please send me a watch out PM :D {lot of people like that around here anyway we got a drag show and stuff... sketchy i've never been, but i just assumed i'd be able to tell....}

That said it’s a tough situation and I sympathize. I wish you “her” and your “wife” the best, and thank you for taking enough effort to decipher my post!

I only hope I'm doing a good job being an advocate for them. I ran your other questions by my wife, Grace, who is a nurse/paramedic.

Good point.

You're right that medically, an identification of transsexual would be the best pragmatic choice. I also agree that the person's status as a transsexual should be revealed to medical personnel treating the person because it makes proper treatment and diagnosis more efficient.

Add to this that during the time when the MTF is on a feminizing dosage of estrogen, progesterone, and androgen blockers, there are a bunch of risks associated with these medical treatments. High dose estrogen raises the risk of pulmonary thrombosis (blood clots), testicular cancer, and breast cancer, and can cause fatigue, migranes, and weight gain, thickening of the cornea, and half a dozen others. Androgen blockers hold the potential to cause a whole raft of side effects. Progesterones sometimes cause greatly increased prolactin levels, sometimes to toxic levels.

A primary care physician should know their patient's medical history, and the fact that one is transsexual should be revealed as part of the medical history, as it can have a big impact on treatment. Indeed, finding a primary care physician who knows how to treat transsexuals is an important part of the transition process, unless the MTF is self-medicating.

Emergency personnel should be notified so they'll be able to adjust treatment accordingly.

So as a medical issue, I agree that MTF transsexual is the best designation.

However, there are only two boxes on records forms, M and F. For someone who is legally female, like Sissy, there are good legal and privacy reasons to want her medical reconds to list her as female, and for insurance purposes, she has to be listed as female. She has insurance for the regular stuff, but it doesn't cover transsexual services.

Medically, Sissy's only remaining male concern is her prostate; all of her other male equipment is gone, or more accurately, repositioned. Her blood chemistry and endocrine system are about the same as a post-hysterectomy female, and medically that's who she most closely resembles. She has more female specific medical concerns, specifically side effects of HRT and breast cancer, than male.

The best solution, and the one she uses, is to list her legal sex, female, and give the details in her list of medications and medical history to those who need to know.

So though I understand and sympathize your concern, I think the best solution is to list one's legal sex, and give details in the medical history and medications being taken. Grace says any emergent care worker (paramedic or doctor) who knows what they're doing would recognize the combination of medications Sissy is taking as indiciative of her being transsexual.

The key here, I think is the medical history. If that is done adequately, and the patient is honest, an M or F on the records should make little difference.

Thank you. It is appreciated.

Gilda

Homosexuality and bisexuality are not disorders, they are normal varaints of human sexuality. Given that Katie and I were intentical twins, it should come as no surprise that we'd share some aspects of sexual identity, in this case a sexual attraction to women.

You're probably correct. This is why I said in my initial response to this question that I recommend to her that she tell the boy involved before the relationship reaches the point of either emotional or physical intimacy.

Telling at first, would, I think, be both unnecessary and a mistake.

A common reaction, true, and a good practical reason to tell a partner before the relationship reaches the point of physical intimacy.

This point, the point at which the couple has reached the brink of emotional intimacy, where moving forward from casual to serious is imminent is, I think, the best point at which to make the revelation. Again, I agree that details of one's personal history should be discussed before becoming emotionally intimate.

The question really is at what point in the relationship should she tell? The first time she talks with a man? When he asks her out? On the first date?

When Sissy thinks a guy might be the kind of guy she'd be interested in, she has a method of feeling him out in regards to his attitudes towards GBLT people. If he makes it clear, as I think you certainly would, during this feeling out process that he's disapproves of people like us, she doesn't continue the relationship. It saves both her and the guy a lot of problems down the road.

Some of them are, no doubt, but that's true of any number of factors. Some guys have a fetish for Asians, or large breasts, or big behinds, and really I don't see anything wrong with that. It doesn't necessarily mean that that attraction is the only factor in the relationship.

For others, it simply isn't an issue. To lump everyone together is, I think, a mistake.

I understand that you're looking at this from the point of view of how you would react to finding out a girl you were asking out or dating was transsexual. It would make you feel, as you say, "sketched out". This is precisely the reason why Sissy doesn't tell every guy she knows and every guy who hits on her, and instead discretely feels a guy out about regarding his attitudes towards GLBT people. She doesn't want to create that reaction in anyone. It makes her feel . . . small, less than a person, as if the fact that she's kind, thoughtful, considerate, hard-working and very smart matter less than her sexual organs, as if who she is matters less than what she used to be.

Believe me, she doesn't want to be dating a guy who feels the way you do any more than you want to be dating her.

She doesn't. Rest assured, though, that it's very unlikely that you'd end up on a date with her if she were. You seriously don't strike me as being her type.

Gilda, thanks for your input. I can see this issue with a lot more clarity now. So, if that was your point then you have been carrying it out with alacrity.

And you know, this little TFP'er is quite proud of you for the fact that everything that you and your family has been through, that you are not just suffering from one successive nervous breakdown after another. I think that shows an incredible inner strength, one that I would loathe to have generate.

Prayers,
mr sticky

I would just like to recognize all the hard and dilligent work Gilda has put into this thread!

Sweetpea

http://www.bmezine.com/news/shapeshift-all.html

A series of articles by someone going through the process of learning about their sexual identity.

Just for the record, Min, the woman, Cora, who wrote those shapeshift articles, has decided to terminate her transition, and is now once again a male named James.

It's always the business of your sexual partner. That's the only thing that makes me uncomfortable about people who are transsexual/transgendered. I understand that they feel that something is wrong with them and that they need to fix that, but that doesn't change that there are some ways in which that's not who they are and never can be.

I admire their courage to take such drastic steps to feel comfortable with themselves, but there's something about it that fundamentally doesn't make sense to me and it's not something that I think I'd be comfortable with for purposes of a sexually intimate relationship. It might be my loss to eleminate the chance to be with a potentially wonderful and attractive transwoman. By the same token, I miss out on wonderful and attractive gay men.

Everyone has the right to know with whom they're having sex and it feels like a very base deception to engage in that kind of activity with someone who is completely unaware of the situation. Your sister and others like her might consider themselves female and act female and be female in all ways except that they weren't born female and, for better or worse, that does make a difference to people. I think people have the right to make that choice when it comes to deciding if they want to be sexually and emotionally intimate with someone.

That being said, it seems like you and your sister know that and understand it. I wish her the best with her recovery and "new" life.

Let me first point out, in case it wasn't clear, that Jen is happily married and has no intention of keeping anything from sexual partners, as her only future sexual partner will likely be her wife. My comment about it being nobody's business applies to people who aren't family, such as casual aquaintences.

Sissy's casual friends and the other members of her clubs at school don't know and there's no need for them to. Nor do I think just any guy who hits on her or even every date. It isn't until the point of intimacy that I think she should tell, but that's entirely for her protection. It's also for her protection that I think she should withhold this information until she reaches the point in a relationship where there is potential for it to become intimate.

Ultimately, it's her judgement to make.

Also, I agree that intimate partners should be notified of one's sexual history, if only to avoid becoming another Gwen Araujo. The men who murdered her are currently in their second trial, offering up the same defense of trans panic that resulted in a hung jury the first time through.

Gilda

Oh, ok, yeah, then we're all on the same page.

The Gwen Araujo story is what I read that first got me thinking about this whole issue in the first place. I won't lie and say I don't understand being mad about the deception, but I really hope "trans-panic" doesn't end up being a legit excuse for killing or violence. I think someone has every right to feel upset and deceived and perhaps violated, but that's a miserably bad justification for being allowed to get away with murder. If your wife tells you she's cheating on you, you'd probably feel the same way, but you'd get convicted of murder 2 every time for killing her. This shouldn't be any different.

My ex (bio-female) is a trannie.

Hi.

Reading this thread has come to make me ponder about my misconceptions about transexuals. I was very interested by it and it triggered many positive thoughts on my side.

I have always considered transexuality as a disorder, and I still do. It is in fact a disorder since there is a difference between the physical body of a person and the representation this person has of him/herself. But why would one ever want to go against nature and undertake such an tremendous operation to make very profound changes in one's own body? I was sometimes feeling very ill at ease during your descriptions, even feeling that continuing reading would become unbearable, just so you understand how uncomfortable I am with this topic. I was thinking "What freak could ever want to do this?" I can understand ssomeone wanting to change sex on a social level, a man wanting to appear like a woman in front of society, and being recognized as such, but why would they want to completely reconstruct their genital parts like that, for what is a very traumatic operation for the body? And all that for what? To be able to have sex? To feel a penis in one's own vagina?

That made me want to think what was behind such a need. And I came to compare my situation with that of your sister, Sissy.

I have had eye cancer at a very small age, and that resulted in deep scars on my face, and my right eye to be taken out. I was picked on as a kid (not that badly), but I have always wanted to be accepted, to be normal. That was my definition of happiness. And what is being happy, if not that? The feeling of oneself being in one's own place, according to the image that you have of yourself. For many people, it might be to raise a famiy, and feeling in one's own place among them. For me, it was to be accepted by my peers. For your sister, it was to be a woman, and be complete as a woman, as a woman who is fully sexually active. And that means having sex, as a woman. At that very moment, the feeling of being in one's own place, in the universe, the feeling of being in harmony with the universe because we are at our own place, because we feel that we are the way we feel we should be, and we are that way, brings true happiness.

And the pursuit of such hapiness cannot be denied to anyone. It is fundamentally human. That is why I cannot judge people who pursue it, and among those people, transexuals.

Having come to this thought, I was wondering what I would do If I ever had to face such a situation. What if the person I love was a transexual who had undergone surgical operation? Even though, one hour ago, the very idea of having sex with a person who had undergone this operation disgusted me to the point of making me want to throw up, I am feeling that now, I would do it without hesitation for the person I love, because I would want to make her happy.

Thinking about this made me consider your sister's possible lovelife. Who could accept to have sex with her, in our society?

1) people attracted to transsexuals
2) someone who would truly love her

I don't think that the people in 1) are the kind of people who your sister wants to be with. That is why I think that she should try to find someone who would truly love her. But true love takes time, a very long time. That is why I was wondering if it was the best solution to tell about her transexuality in such an early state of the relationship (you talked about 2nd date)? Telling it too soon can really have profound effetcs on many people, even if that person could ultimately become deeply in love with your sister. I also think that she would need to find someone who is comfortable enough with his own sexuality, to be able to love her without any complex. This question would be very problematic for a virgin for example.

Maybe I am going too far. I don't think this is my problem at all, but reading your post led me to develop a certain sympathy for you and your sister.

Your posts also made me wonder what the origins of transexuality could be. My opinion is that they are mainly social. Comparing with my case, it was being rejected that made me want to become normal so much, becoming almost an obsession. I beleive that such a mechanism, applied to the very sensitive issue of sexuality, and to the very influenceable mind of a small child, can lead to such very powerful effects on the human psyche, to the point of modifying one's own sexual perception. Maybe there were also events, apart from the rejection of your parents that triggered it? What is your opinion on this?

I'm happy to hear that.

Agreed. Sissy thinks of it as a physical birth defect, like having a cleft pallet. Andrea James compares it to a child who has a port wine stain--a red birthmark covering a large portion of the face. It doesn't inhibit one's physical function, but it can have a profound effect on one's ability to participate fully in society.

If the gender identity is at odds with the body, who's to say that the body's gender is the correct one, the natural one. Anyone who knew Sissy growing up could see that feminine was her natural state. Changing her body to match her mind was going with what was natural for her.

Mark 9:47: And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mark 947 is the name of the autobiography of Calpernia Addams, a transsexual woman. I've always found Mark 9:43-9:47, which advocates the disposal of bodily parts that one finds offensive as a means of salvation for one's soul to be particularly relevant to transsexuals, who seek to alter their bodies to match what they feel to be their true selves.

For my sister also, and for most transsexuals.

That's part of it, certainly, but it's a lot more about feeling complete as a person. Sissy is in her fifth year living as a female, and she and we have thought of her as a girl from the moment she adopted the social role.

I wish there were more with your attitude. You give me hope, thank you for this.

This made me smile. Thank you.

Or someone for whom it didn't matter one way or the other.

You're right there, but for a different reason than you'd think. A lot of men who seek out and date transsexual women, particularly pre-ops--a significant portion of them--are gay men who don't want to admit to themselves that they are gay and use transwomen as a stepping stone to accepting what they'd been repressing, then move on to dating men. This actually happened to Sissy just before her final surgery.

Others are just gay men attracted to either transsexuals or very effeminate boys, and because they are men, the MTF's are accepting of this, so long as they get to be the girl in the relationship.

As with all of us.

Did I? I think I've said that I suggest waiting until she's at the point where physical intimacy is imminent or they are emotionally intimate. I'd agree that a 2nd date is too soon, and I'm pretty sure that she's never told that early. In addition, we're trying to set her up to go full immersion, which means that protecting information regarding her past is very important.

On the contrary, your post seems quite insightful, and I'm glad you posted. It's given my spirits a lift in a time when I've been in desperate need of it.

Sissy knew she was supposed to be a girl from the time she understood the difference between girls and boys. She was rejected by my parents because she was effeminate and refused their masculine programming. There were traumatic events in her childhood, but they occurred as a result of her being transsexual, and were not the cause of it.

The current prevailing theory is that something goes wrong in the hormone wash that occurs in the 12-13th week of gestation, which triggers the development of sex specific structures in the brain, in the case of a MTF, leading to the development of female structures in the brain. Boy body, girl brain. A friend of mine puts it this way: "She knew from the time she was a young child that she was a girl. She didn't know how this was possible or even that it was possible, but she nevertheless knew it to be true."

I'd like to emphasize that, for most, to quote CSI: "It's not about sex, it's about soul." From the episode Ch-ch-changes. If you ignore the main storyline, there's a lot of good stuff in that episode. The conversation between Grissom and the transwoman in the bar is really good.

Gilda

Not that it's relevant, but there's also a neat cameo by Calpernia Addams (a prominent transsexual actress) and Marci Bowers (a transwoman and prominent SRS surgeon). As Grissom and the doctor are walking through a clinic, there's a shot of a group of transsexuals at a presentation. There are two close up shots of an attractive, pale, dark haired young woman. That's Calpernia Addams. The woman giving the presentation is Marci Bowers.

I happy that I could make you smile. You have put so much effort in this thread that I felt it was my duty to read it thoroughly and give my very honest opinion on this. My reaction is only due to your efforts.

Gilda,
After reading your posts about your struggles in the hospital after your accident, I went searching for other of your posts. I have found your writings very well written, full of thought, understanding for other opinions, and love for your sister and everyone else as well. I just wanted to thank you for the education you have provided to myself and everyone else who cared enough to read through the whole post, as I just did. I now have a much more information on something I seriously had no clue on. I had never really given this much thought. Being informed is so much better than being ignorant, and forming opinions from that ignorance. Thank You!

"I understand that you're looking at this from the point of view of how you would react to finding out a girl you were asking out or dating was transsexual. It would make you feel, as you say, "sketched out". This is precisely the reason why Sissy doesn't tell every guy she knows and every guy who hits on her, and instead discretely feels a guy out about regarding his attitudes towards GLBT people. She doesn't want to create that reaction in anyone. It makes her feel . . . small, less than a person, as if the fact that she's kind, thoughtful, considerate, hard-working and very smart matter less than her sexual organs, as if who she is matters less than what she used to be."

That's a great sentiment, that sexual organs don't matter. Why then go to the trouble of getting them chopped off?

"Believe me, she doesn't want to be dating a guy who feels the way you do any more than you want to be dating her."

Since "she" isn't really a she isn't "she" lying to men, and everyone else? Why is that acceptable?

Oh well done! Textbook example of a straw man.

Go back and read what I actually wrote, and you'll see that it's quite a bit different from your distortion of it, but I think you already know that.

You'll also see that you're just factually wrong. SRS isn't chopping the organs off, it's rearranging the tissues.

Ah, now you're begging the question.

No, she isn't lying.

It benefits her, and doesn't harm anyone else.

Why does it bother you?

Gilda

Gilda,

:: DISCLAIMER :: These questions are not directed towards anyone you know specifically, and I will assume your answers are general answers based on your research rather than any personal experience.

Okay, so here goes....There are a lot of different (visual?) components to the female vagina. It seems like it would be very difficult to use male components and replicate female components accurately. You've got the outer labia, inner labia, clitoral hood, and all the other fun little bits. Disregarding feel, touch, functionality: On a scale of 1 (very little) to 10 (perfect match), how close does a neo-vagina look to a natural vagina? Obviously, the skill of the doctor is a factor, so let's just assume it is the best one that can possibly be constructed. I don't think you answered this before. If you did, I apologize.

Question #2 (in 27 parts :)):......Um, how "deep" is a neo-vagina? I would assume that it is somewhat proportional to the length of the inverted erect penis from whence it came. Granted, the doctors had scrotum skin to work with, but I think you mentioned that things start to shrink from the hormones. Doesn't that reduce the amount of material from which they can work? ...consequently reducing the available maximum depth? Is this even a consideration? If a MTF chooses to have vaginal sex, does look/depth become an issue in terms of

a) choosing a (big) partner
b) potentially having to tell a partner
c) serving as a "tell" to an unknowing partner.

This is, undoubtedly, the most fascinating thread I have ever read on TFP. While I was never uncomfortable with the transsexual lifestyle or process, there were many aspects about which I had never really thought. I thank you for exposing us all to the challenges that MTF transssexuals face.

--Cim

P.S. My best friend is going to be very disappointed to learn he needs to save up $30K to get rid of his Sasquatch-esque body hair! I would have never guessed hair removal was the most expensive part.

The links below are so NSFW that it defies description:

Check here. More post-op neo-vaginas than you can shake a stick at.

Also here for pictuers of some truly excellent aesthetic results.

Assuming that its the best possible result in terms of appearance, 10. A well-constructed neo-vagina is visually, and to a partnere, functionally indistiguishable from a natural one. Keep in mind that natural vaginas can vary greatly in appearance from one another, and with a little bit of hair growth, most of the differences tend to be somewhat masked anyway. An MTF always has some pubic hair growth to cover the incision scars.

It depends greatly upon the skill of the surgeon and the technique used. A general rule of thumb for a straight penile inversion would be vaginal depth roughly equivilent to the length of the penis measured along the underside from the base to the heat while erect. A graft from the scrotum can increase depth, as can use of a colon segment graft, or use of a colon segment in place of the penile inversion itself.

One Thai surgeon, Dr. Suporn, has developed a new technique that is very popular. He uses a skin graft from the lower belly, buttocks, or thigh as the vaginal lining. The skin from the shaft of the penis is split into two segments and used to form the labia minora, which results in much greater sexual sensation especially when directly stimulating the mons, as with a vibrator, and what has been reported as excellent sensation when having vaginal sex, because the tissues that get the most stimulation, those at the entrance, are from the far more sexually senstive penile skin rather than the less sensitive scrotal.

It can vary from as little as 2-3 inches if the penis is initially small and/or the surgeon doesn't do a good job, to as much as 6-7 inches. With a small penis, most surgeons will use a graft from the scrotum or a colon segment to increase depth, but the colon segment does add to the cost.

You're taking a chance with some of the less prominent Thai surgeons, but you're pretty safe with any big name American surgeon or the main Thai guys.

If there has been an orchiectomy, the scrotum will shrink. Shrinkage of the penis may occcur if the penis remains in a flaccid state all the time, as it does with many, perhaps most, but keep in mind that penile skin is desgined to shrink and expand. Once it's used as the lining of the vagina, it can be stretched back out to full size again.

The main issue with scrotal shrinkage is having enough tissue available for formation of the labia. This isn't an issue with Dr. Suporn's technique, or any technique involving a colon segment.

There are four general issues: depth, sensation, appearance, and urination, and all are important.

Depth is important for the obvious reason, that of being able to fully accommodate a partner. Sensation matters for the obvious reason. Appearance does come into play with a partner, but it's as much about feeling complete. A woman wants to feel pretty for herself, and having an attractive looking vagina is part of this for some MTF's.

A partner who is too large can be accommoded by using alternate positions, but obviously the girl wants to be able to handle her partner in any position.

For stealth purposes, both appearance and depth make a difference, but, just as with anything else, people will tend to believe what they want to believe. If a man sees something as being a little bit off, but has no reason to suspect otherwise, he's very unlikely to attribute it to anything but normal variance in female genetalia. And as I said earlier, most surgeons do produce an aesthetically acceptable result.

I personally don't think stealth with a sexual partner is a good idea, especailly with a long term partner, mostly for the protection of the girl involved. I do, however, understand why some transwomen choose not to reveal their past to casual sexual partners.

You're welcome, and thank you. Keep in mind that for a great many transsexuals, especially those who pass easily, their lifestyle is the same as any other woman's. It's just the path they took to womanhood that was different.

Did I say it was 30k for hair removal? That would be the extreme upper limit, and very rare if anyone does actually spend that much. Hormones help a lot on the body hair. Half that, however, isn't unusual.

Gilda

Trust me, he would use every penny of that $30K, sometimes I wonder if he is actually human. Fortunately for him, he is quite comfortable with his carpet....err.....hair. I heard a rumor that laser hair removal is ineffective on people with naturally red hair. I have no way to confirm this, but perhaps your research could (in)validate this rumor?

Just to show you how ignorant I was to the details of this process: until you brought up urination in building of the neo-vagina, I had completely forgot about that function! Sheesh, we do need to do that as well, don't we?!?

I will definitely try those links when I get home. I look forward to seeing the results that can be achieved.

Nope, it's not a rumor. A laser is nearly useless on red hair or on dark skin. The reason is that the laser uses high intensity light energy to kill the follicle. Light is absorbed more readily by things that are dark than by things that are light. The ideal combination is pale skin with black or dark brown hair. Sissy was fortunate in that she had exactly that combination. As the skin gets darker, it absorbs more of the energy, leaving less impacting the follicle, and as hair gets lighter, it absorbs less of the energy. Blonds and red-heads are out of luck when it comes to laser.

Yep. Urinating in a steady stream is a big milestone during recovery, and usually takes weeks before it occurs. The new girl has to learn how to use all her new girl parts, just like the rest of us do growing up.

Gilda

Lampajoo,

While I was a tad offended by your implied judgements, I offer you another point of view.

Over my life, I have begun to realize that our body is nothing more than the car our mind drives around. We have it repaired when it is broken; we wash it; we put fuel in it; and we modify it with piercings, haircuts, shaving, clothes, etc.

The difference between the car that our body drives and the "car" that our mind drives is that we don't really get to pick the model our mind drives. In Sissy's case, she drove away in a model "M" when she should have and wanted to drive away in an model "F". So, she took her car to the shop and had her car modified to suit her mind - nothing more, nothing less. It's really no different than painting your "real" car a different color, jacking it up, cutting out a sunroof, etc. In a feeble attempt to be pop-topical: She pimped her ride!

In conclusion, if the people riding in Sissy's new car like the way it looks, feels, and performs - then the people that matter are satisfied.

That is something that I wonder about from time to time. The Scene. So often one hears it called that and I have to wonder how accurate the portrayal of the scene is in movies and other media. We seem to see everything from “The Blue Oyster Bar” part of Police Academy to the bar scenes in Queer as Folk.

I just about have to suspect that clubs like that exist, or are at least embellished in movies and on TV, but I can’t imagine any of the gay people I know being a part of any of that. The gay people I know just seem like people who enjoy pretty much the same things I do except their sexual preferences. I live in an area where the nearest gay bar if there is one is an hour drive. I really have no way to see for myself.

And then there are the images that the media seems to show from gay rights protests and parades. Are these images and the scenes from TV and film a fair portrayal or senseless stereotypes? I imagine more the latter than the former but I honestly don’t know.

BTW, this thread is amazing. I’ve read where you have posted before about Sissy and assumed that she was your lesbian sister. I had no idea that she was a transsexual. More importantly I (and I imagine many others) knew very little of the information you have shared here. Not only are you obviously important to your sister and Grace, but you are an asset to the TFP. :thumbsup:

There are extremes like the leather bar you see in Police Academy, and there are more casual atmospheres that are basically just a regular bar or disco that happens to be frequented by chiefly gays. I think the extreme versions are likely more common at gay bars than at regular ones, but there is a good variance. One of the misconceptions about gay bars is that everyone in one is going to be gay, and that if a straight person goes into one, he/she'll be hit on all night long and there'll be a lot of hostility towards this straight person on "our turf". Not true. I suspect straight men would tend to be uncomfortable in a place aimed at gay guys, but you're going to find a good number of straight women who just happen to hang out with gay guys. Lesbian bars tend to be a bit more . . . subdued, casual, and most of the women wouldn't mind if a straight girl were to come in. Straight guys would be taking a bit more of a risk.

A drag club, like the ones we liked to go to occasionally back in California, has a good mix of people, gay and straight alike, and attracts a lot of straight guys. A lot of straight guys.

So yeah, the stuff you see there exists, and is more common in gay bars than straight bars, but it's far from the only thing you'll see. There's a big range.

Here's how it works, for the most part. It's like a comic book convention or the St. Patrick's day parade in Chicago. You might have 10,000 people acting like reasonable people and 20 people who fit the extreme stereotype, and those 20 will get all the coverage.

Sure, there wouldn't be those people to cover if they weren't there, and there are going to be events that are more extreme than others, and some are going to be populated by a large number of extremists, who are more likely to be attracted to such events.

It's a big variation from the mundane to the extreme, but for the most part, onlyt the extreme gets coverage.

When I think of the homosexual lifestyle, I get the image of a college professor and a nurse living quietly in an upscale condo, but, hey, that's just me.

Thank you. I'm glad it's been helpful.

Gilda

I have another question that I found myself wondering about today... What becomes of generally male or female health problems later in life? Things such as prostate problems or osteoporosis. Do these types of diseases or problems still occur and how is the treatment different if they do?

An MTF, particularly after the age of 40, faces two big potential problems, and you've identified one of them, osteoperosis. The other is breast cancer. Prostate cancer is also a risk, but not to the same degree.

Osteoperosis becomes a risk a lot earlier, particularly for those who transition young, like Sissy. The high dose cross-sex hormone treatment can lead to loss of bone density as early as the 20's, but becomes a bigger risk after the age of 40. Treatment is generally the same as for a post-hysterectomy or post-menopause woman, depending upon age.

MTF's have a greater incidence of breast cancer and benign cysts in the the breasts, and it's just as important for them to do regular breast exams and get mamograms once a year after the age of 40 as with biological women. Treatment is generally the same as with a biological woman.

The prostate gland is the only primary male sexual organ an MTF retains post-op. It shrinks in response to anti-androgens and estrogen, and the incidence of infections and cancer are a lot lower, and some of the medications used for their anti-androgenic properties are also used to treat the prostate. but a regular exam, especially after the age of 40, is still required.

Pre-ops have a greatly increased incidence of testicular cancer so long as they retain their testicles, and regular exams are necessary. Treatment for cancer is removal of the testicles, and if it's spread, treatment is as with anyone else. MTF's who don't have their testicles removed lose them anyway, as they stop producing the testosterone that helps maintain them, and the estrogen acts as an antagonist, eventually dissolving them over a period of 10-20 years. During the first few years, it's necessary to check regularly, though.

MTF's also tend to have some of the same gynecological problems as natal women, namely urinary tract infections, intravaginal infections, and cancer of the tissues or the neo-vagina.

The new gyno I just found for me and Sissy jokingly referred to having more than one patient getting a yearly M,P & P--mammogram, pelvic, and prostate exam.

One that you missed was loss of upper body muscular strength. MTF's lose so much upper body muscle mass that they become much, much weaker than they were as a male, in many cases debilitatingly weak even in comparison to a natal woman of the same height and weight. Sissy is only slightly taller than I am (she had her growth stunted in late puberty by the administration of anti-androgens, the poor thing :)) and weights some 10-15 pounds more, so she's roughly comperable in size, but she's already lost so much muscle in the upper body that I'm stronger up top than she is, and you can see from my picture that I'm not exactly the most muscular person. This loss of strength plateaus, but it does leave a lot of older MTF's very fragile in terms of ability to perform normal every day lifting tasks, especially when combined with loss of bone density.

In general the MTF has most of the same medical concerns as a post-hysterectomy natal woman, with a slightly greater chance of breast problems, and has a slight chance of prostate problems. The problems are treated for the most part as with anyone who has that same problem.

Diabetes is one of the more troublesome things that can happen to a transwoman, as type 2 diabetes has cross-sex hormones counter-indicated as a treatment, and prevents most surgical treatments. I have a friend in this situation; she can't take hormones or androgen blockers, and can't have any of the common surgeries. It's a real shame, because there's a significant positive correlation between type 2 diabetes and transsexualism in physical males--a physical male with type 2 diabetes is about 10 times as likely to be transsexual as a physical male without it (say a 1/1000 chance instead of a 1/10,000 chance).

Not that you asked, but there also seems to be a positive correlation between IQ and transsexualism in physical males; males with genius IQ's have a much higher incidence of transsexualism than those with normal IQ's by about a factor of 10. You'll also find that financial and professional success is positively correlated to transsexualism in males--there are a lot more engineers, doctors, lawyers, psychologists, and college professors out there who are MTF than construction workers or plumbers.

Sissy, by the way, has an IQ of a little over 170, or so it was when she was tested at about the age of 10. Nobody was surprised at this.

Gilda

Gilda,
I meant to thank you for the reply to this post when you made it the other day. The effort that you put into this is really amazing.

And it is interesting that you mentioned the relationship of IQs. While I've certainly not done any research I have always seemed to feel that those who were... I don't know... in touch with their sexuality seem to be intelligent and artistic.

Cimarron29414: I showed Sissy this, and she was absolutely delighted with it as a metaphor for being transsexual, and shared it with some friends at an MTF board where she's a member, and it's been well received there.

I've mentioned my friend Jen, a middle-aged MTF in mid-transition, and the last time I exchanged e-mails with her I paraphrased your car metaphor for her. She's having a really, really rough time right now and you managed to make her day with this. She e-mailed this back, trying to help me understand what she was feeling (I have permission to pass this along):

"Imagine that you not only feel uncomfortable in your body, but you hate it, to the point that you actively avoid mirrors and getting an inadvertant glance of yourself in the reflection of a store window is enough to make you cringe. Imagine looking at your clothes every morning and feeling sick at having to put them on, or flinching internally every time someone calls you "Sir". Imagine hating your body so much that it seems wrong and evil, and wanting to punish it by cutting or burning it to get back at it for causing you such emotional pain that the physical pain is a relief. Imagine hating your body so much that you regularly consider mutilating yourself to remove the most offensive parts, or commit suicide to remove them all.

That's what it feels like, for many, to be transsexual."

Gilda

Hey, I hate to bump this thread and my apologies for doing so (I was unable to send you a PM due to insufficient posts). Anyway, although for a majority of my life I've felt as a female presence and had experienced some degree of mental hallucination (not physically) in which my mind would tell me that my body was female, I've also felt somewhat masculine and androgenic. Other times however, I've felt extremely depressed about having a male body and have desperately wished for it to change by any means, and have contemplated suicide myriad times ergo to this.

I could correlate the depression of it to implicit peer pressure, in that -- it'd be inconsistent with a norm, and albeit if I did transition, I'd feel envy for those who attain the aesthetics, even in specifics (e.g. having a smaller nose) -- but this pressure also integrates the lack of a female reproductive system, and although I could adopt a child and settle for a neo vagina, I feel implicitly pressured to pass on the next generation through child birth. As a result, the pressure for wanting a female reproductive system has made me feel like I'd settle to be any species that's female. Depression pertaining to the desire to be female also relates to the lack of a female childhood and social experiences -- I felt that by transitioning, it'd introduce a major social conflict, even if gone stealth (e.g. social chit-chat relating to female childhood experiences would probably provoke discomfort). When taking hormones however, or if attaching some kind of feminine quality, I felt great and the negatives kinda suppress until I think a little deep about it -- the thoughts can also intervene if I feel that I can't identify as a female.

Conversely however, I've also felt slightly comfortable as a male, albeit this was seldom, coupled with what felt as male mentality. Most often however, if feeling male, I'd feel hopeless about life - I'd often anticipate the future as a void, attracting limited positive experience. Sexually, I feel that I would engage in experience with a female if provided the opportunity, but would prefer to take the role as a female. I've also taken that role a few times, and although most often attracted to female sexuality with little control over urge, I've never felt fully attracted to a male.

A few friends whom I've spoke to about a transition believe that the reason for this is due to the lack of experience with females - the most I've done is kissing, and that was once and I haven't had many social encounters with females (I've yet to find a legitimate relationship with a female -- I've had one which ended when she met me). The encounters that had transpired, and most which where with the intention of dating, where negative. In some state of mind, I also feel very pessimistic about females (which isn't entirely stemmed from attempts to date a female), with no hope in achieving reproduction and wish to rid my attraction to them. With each attempt to date and proceeding rejection, I experience a lot of depression with suicidal thoughts for months, which in turn reduces my ability to do the things I enjoy or wish to accomplish -- I feel very doubtful about living as a male (I'm 19). One also suggests that I increase my masculinity, but I fear that this would fail in attracting a female and would destroy any chance in an opportunity for a transition.

Despite a correlation between the lack of experience with females, I've also felt the desire to be female before I hit puberty but had also felt attracted to females at around the age of 3.

Apologies for this babble, but I'm wondering if this is truly transgender-ism, and whether it'd be advised to transition (I feel very tempted to do so but one other block that's somewhat impeding is aging (granted that this is inevitable, but I fear that at some point, even if I did find an appearance that adhered to my female self, that it'd die over time), but I also feel that I might be happy if identified as female). Here's a link to my original thread for further info: tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-sexuality/147477-achieving-prostate-orgasm-how-do-i-do.html

Any help is greatly appreciated! :) Also Gilda, you're a wonderful person and deserve all the respect in the world for the support you provided your sister!

I have a question. With a MTF what do they do with the removed penis?

I hate to be the bringdown here, but Gilda hasn't been active in this community for several years now. You're not likely to get answers from her here, unfortunately.

I believe they invert it and it becomes the inside of the new vagina. Not sure, though.

Read the thread - the explanation is in it already. :)

How do you think that "finding out" will happen?

Well - if you mean a post-op mtf, then I presume (excluding study of a ratio of finger length, which I believe is a relatively robust way if identifying "gestational gender") only a close examination of the genitals or an admission of the situation are the ways someone will "find out". In that case, if someone has already given you the blowjob, it would be churlish to be cross at their revalation - the worst you should do is thank them and not go on another date.

Personally, I take the approach that if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

I'm sad that Gilda isn't around anymore! I just saw this thread today when it was bumped and i fell in love with it. I wish she were still around!

^^ Me too Salem, I was back-reading before I realized it's age, now I am wondering how Gilda and Sissy are doing. I hope they are well.

Me to! I hope all is well with them both. I checked her profile and there doesnt seem to be any way to contact them, so i guess i'll just send some good energy their way.