Sho Nuff

I’m not sure I understand the concept of a transgender male. I understand it to be a person born genetically male but identifies him/her self as being female.

The transgendered males that I have met or observed generally accentuate the most stereotypical images and mannerisms of female identity. Many females that I know vehemently oppose classifying the habits and characteristics they exhibit as an expression of female identity. Perhaps this is because Ive only met or observed a small segment of transgendered males.

In addition, I know a few lesbians that become highly upset if you consider their mannerisms to be masculine and accuse you of having a patriarchal viewpoint of masculinity and femininity.

If that is true, then what does it mean to identify with a gender? What separates a transgendered male from a gay male other than choosing to adopt stereotypes that society is progressing toward defining as outdated? Is there a more subtle association with gender that Im missing?

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torn lace

I'm a peer educator through the LGBT (lesbian/gay/bisexual/transgender) center at my college, and have received extensive training on these issues, so i'll try to field your questions to the best of my ability.

An important quote:
"I can't say who I am unless you agree I'm real." - Imamu Amiri Baraka

First i'd like to clear up some terms. Currently within the trans-community, a transgender man is a trans-individual who was assigned female at birth and lives as a man. A transgendered woman is a trans-individual who was assigned male at birth and lives as a woman. The reason behind this is that trans-men and trans-women consider themselves to be men and women, and they are not solely defined by their birth or assigned sex, though that is part of what makes up their gender.

So from now on i'll be using these terms. From reading your post, i'm guessing you are referring to a trans-woman, not a trans-man, but i'll answer inclusively, speaking of the trans-community in general.

In order to get a better understanding of what gender is, i'll explain its three components:

1. Sex. Sex is the biological/anatomic or organic sexual markers that are only assigned meaning in a social context. There is a large overlap between female and male, and they may change over time.

2. Gender Role. Gender roles are the social and perceived expectations of gendered acts or expressions. Examples include the stereotypes that boys play with guns and wear pants while girls play with dolls and wear skirts. These vary within cultures and are temporal.

3. Gender Identity. Gender Identity is the SELF conception of one's gender, and it may or may not have an organic component. Each person's gender identity is unique, and is often complimented by social perceptions, ie, someone confirming or disconfirming how you choose to identify.

Putting these three together truly makes up a person's Gender. Gender has often been thought as being binary, and synonymous with 'sex'. But it's important to consider gender as a spectrum or infinite series, that is individually defined for each person, ie, "there are six billion genders, one for each living person."

Transgender encompasses many communities. Transgender can be defined as "people who transcend typical gender paradigms", "an umbrella term used to group the many gender different communities", and as a "core identity", like race/religion/class/abilities etc.

It is important to recognize that transgender identity is seperate from sexual orientation. Trans-women attracted to women may identify as lesbian, trans-men attracted to men may identify as gay. Trans-women attracted to men and trans-men attracted to women may identify as straight. Trans-people may also identify as bisexual, pansexual, omnisexual, asexual, or celibate.

I hope this answered your questions. If I wasn't clear or if you want me to get more specific on questions you have, feel free to ask! I got all of this information from a training i received from Carrie Davis, MSW, who is the coordinator of Center CARE's Group Services and Gender Identity Project (GIP), through the NYC LGBT community center, (http://www.gaycenter.org)

-Justine

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Sho Nuff

For the sake of this discussion Im working from a few key definitions:

Sex - purely biological definition of the distinction between being born genetically and anatomically male or female. I realize this is not always either/ or but for the majority of cases this applies.

Gender - the behavioral, cultural or psychological traits typically associated with ones sex.

Working from those definitions a trans-female is an individual born genetically and anatomically male but identifies with the gender traits of female and is female in her view of self. That being the case she socializes herself as a female within society. When a person is socialized in our society, generally gender roles are assigned based on the dominant stereotypes of our culture. In "politically correct" circles however, there is a movement among women to reject these stereotypes and the gender roles associated with them. In order for there to be a spectrum there must be juxtaposed concepts. This implies the need to embrace gender roles and stereotypes. In the absence of gender roles and stereotypes, how does one classify gender identity?

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I know Nietzsche doesnt rhyme with peachy, but you sound like a pretentious prick when you correct me.

raeanna74

I have been wondering this for a long time with regards to person's born in a form that is not distinctly Male or Female. The reason I ask is I have a friend who's niece who was born with exterior male parts but when examined internally had predominantly female parts. It was possible that her male parts could function in part but would not be fertile only the female parts would be fertile. In this case they did "reconstructive" surgery to assign her a female profile.

How common is this and are some transgendered individuals born this way and that is why they choose a different gender role?

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bermuDa

raeanna: i think some trans-gender individuals are born in that way and according to them later on, their doctors (or parents) chose the wrong gender... for the most part I think trans-gender folks fit the "woman trapped in a man's body" description or vice-versa. I met Dana Rivers in my senior year of high school, she had come to my school to give a speech about her experience as a trans-gender woman. Really interesting stuff, I'm glad I attended.

torn lace: it's nice to have the insights of someone with training answering such questions, i'd just like to append one thing onto your description of gender. I see gender as male and female (with noted physical exceptions born with malformed sex organs), maybe it's just the way i was taught as a child. Gender Identity, however, is how I percieve the different ways people identify themselves, not only as a "man" or "woman" or variations on those, but also sexual orientation (gay man or lesbian trans-gender woman, etc), so I'd prefer to say "there are six billion gender identities, one for each living person." rather than just "gender"

that's just how i see it, anyways.

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torn lace

hey Sho Nuff i'm working on a response for you don't think i've forgotten.

raeanna -
I really can't give you a complete answer because I don't know your friend's niece's case, but what probably occurred was that her clitoris was larger than "normal", and they performed a clitorodectomy, the whole or partial removal of her clitoris, which was deemed 'abnormal'. Unfortunately the decision to have reconstructive surgery directly after birth is very controversial. This is because the surgery is performed on genitals that will function normally and only 'look' unusual. Most commonly people who have experienced this wish that their parents had not chosen the surgery because often they are left traumatized and without sensation. Their enlarged clitorises would function as clitorises, not as penises because internally they have female sex organs.

I did a little reseach, and apparently 1 in every 2,000 people is born intersexed or has reproductive organs which make their gender indeterminate. (source: http://scarleteen.com)

These statistics are from the Intersexed Society of America(http://www.isna.org/frequency.html

Not XX and not XY - one in 1,666 births

Klinefelter (XXY) - one in 1,000 births

Androgen insensitivity syndrome - one in 13,000 births

Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome - one in 130,000 births

Classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia - one in 13,000 births

Late onset adrenal hyperplasia - one in 66 individuals

Vaginal agenesis (i.e. no or incomplete vagina) - one in 6,000 births

Ovotestes - one in 83,000 births

Idiopathic (no discernable medical cause) - one in 110,000 births

Hypospadias (urethral opening in perineum or along penile shaft) - one in 2,000 births

Hypospadias (urethral opening between corona and tip of glans penis) - one in 770 births

Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female - one in 100 births

Total number of people receiving surgery to "normalize" genital appearance - one or two in 1,000 births

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Giltwist

Intersexed I understand, that's physical. But I am not getting this transgender thing so what if you are a "man trapped in a woman's body"? Why do you need special status? My gf was taking a psychology class this semester and during hte course wrote a paper on gender role. According to the Bem Sexual Inventory Test (do I have that right?) I am more feminine than my gf is and my masculinity is way low. Does that make me a "woman trapped in a man's body"? I certainly don't see myself that way. On the other hand, I don't exactly consider myself a "guy," but that is a whole different session on the couch

Peace be with you,
G

bermuDa

if you were a woman trapped in a man's body, you'd be defining yourself in reference to gender roles or stereotypes. You might be feminine, but do you feel like a woman trapped in a man's body?

it's all about how you feel.

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Sho Nuff

If you wouldnt mind sharing Id like to know what you mean by that. It might shed an interesting light on this discussion.

If one identifies predominantly with feminine characterisitcs and still identifies himself as male then what does it really mean to be male or female outside of genetics and anatomy?

__________________
I know Nietzsche doesnt rhyme with peachy, but you sound like a pretentious prick when you correct me.

Giltwist

No, but to the outside obvserver, what difference does that make? How will a transgendered individual be treated any differently than myself, unless they purposefully make it obvious by doing exactly what you said, following sterotypes?

It's really hard for me to quantify. If you spent some time around me, I think it would become apparant just how differnet I am from the rest of humanity, especially the men.

The.Lunatic

uhhh burl, whats this about one in onethousand don't have a normally fomed vagaina and shit...

I'm gonna look up these terms when i get home. So sketch. wtf is par\nsextual?

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The.Lunatic

uhhh burl, whats this about one in onethousand don't have a normally fomed vagaina and shit...

I'm gonna look up these terms when i get home. So sketch. wtf is pansextual?

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torn lace

no not sketch.

pansexuality is attraction to people regardless of gender identity or expression. people who label themselves pansexual are attracted to men, women, trans-men, and trans-women, etc.


-justine

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