If I was a chick, I wouldn't go somewhere for one night with three pairs of sexy undies and freshly shaved (out of routine) unless I was planning on showing someone.

The direct approach paid off, now it's all about getting to the rationale and making your decisions from there.

Dude, I'm so confused here. I need like... 7th grade reading level... I need flash cards with pictures. Maybe dinosaurs, too. Dinosaurs are gnarly.

This "by the time the need to invade the privacy of your partner arises, infidelity is very likely the least of issues" bit makes zero sense to me, Hoss. It's a reaction, not an action. Said reaction would not have occurred without the initial action by his wife. There is an activity trigger threshold. Consider it like the trigger pull on a pistol, with the pressure on the trigger being evidence and reasonableness as related to the likelihood of Something Wonky. See, you can touch the trigger without the gun going off (she's distant), you can even apply some pressure to the trigger, squeezing it a little, without the gun going off (we don't have sex much)... but the gun only discharges when you provide enough pressure on the trigger (she shaved her snatch'o'doodle and is being really secretive). In this case: I do not dig around in my partner's stuff without seeing that they're shaving the privates for the first time in months/years and notice they're being Really Friggin' Sneakret Squirrel (TM). Is it "wrong?" Yes. A sense of personal privacy is important (in some weird way I haven't quite figured out yet). Is it justified? Probably. If nothing comes of it? __awkward moment text__. But if you uncover something, you just dodged that bullet.

Let's say Guy A is completely clueless about any relationship issues until his wife starts doing stuff that a Law & Order camera man would do a four second "this is important" pause shot of... and then suddenly Guy A finds himself with That Wonky Feeling (TM). Something fishy is afoot and he chooses to investigate. What exactly are you trying to convey to me by suggesting that the instant he unzips a duffel bag that the relationship had issues before he decided that investigation was necessary? Is the big issue here that he didn't go, "Hey, toots... you bobbing on any other cock than mine? It's okay... you can tell me." I think the issue is all her. She wasn't happy with [whatever, lame excuse] and decided to go get a little sumfin'-sumfin'.

How can both sides of this relationship be the bad guy? One for cheating and one for not being suspicious enough early enough or... uh... huh?

I figure you're suggesting that he should have sat down with her and talked to her about his concerns like some kind of Dr. Phil special. It has been my experience that those activities either ruin a relationship where nothing is wrong ("You don't trust me!") or only allow the person who's doing-the-naughty to lie ("You don't trust me?"). I'm suggesting that shit doesn't go down like that in the real world. Real world relationship issues as described in this thread happen based on coincidences, accidents, Freudian slips and Columbo-like hunches. The girlfriend that discovers you're still fapping it to SuicideGirls.com based on your browser history, the husband that discovers his wife is still smoking Cowboy Killers by finding a cellophane in her jeans pocket while doing the laundry. Evidence-based. In this case it was sneaky behavior plus shaved cock-socket that lead to the panties with what was likely semen stains. Change the variables all you want, the axioms themselves never change.

...

Ugh, sorry... I realize how poorly written this stuff is... I hope it makes some sense.

I've got to agree with Plan9 on this one. Trying to talk it out might work but the other person isn't going to tell you unless they had already planned to come to you or the relationship is already past repair. To me its akin to a policeman searching your car when he has reasonable cause (or whatever that phrase is), eventually the evidence just begins piling up and you either ignore it or start looking around for some answers. I guess one could try asking but I would suspect 99 out of 100 times all you get is a fight or a breakup and the next time she/he does it she/he will just be more careful about it.

Why suddenly would a person who has been nothing but deceitful suddenly do a 180 and tell you everything you want to know because you sat down for a talk?

Blindly trusting somebody and just ignoring obvious signs of infidelity isn't exactly the best thing for a relationship either. I don't know there really isn't an easy answer in these cases...probably best left to the dynamics of the relationship then a solid rule I suppose.

I don't think Manic is saying that you need to go all doctor Phil and talk it out.

I took it to mean that if it ever comes a time in a relationship where you have this overwhelming need to snoop because you suspect something, the relationship is already done. No talking, no asking will help it. And that is because even if the significant other isn't cheating RIGHT NOW, the level of suspicion has gotten to the point where you'll always end up feeling like you are walking on egg shells, like the cheating is imminent if not present.

I don't know if that is what he meant, and I won't speak for him. But to me, I have never seen or heard of a relationship working out after it got to the point where one felt like snooping on the other. I've never heard about any relationship where one partner went "I really suspected infidelity, but dug around and found nothing, so now we're great again." When it gets to that point, the relationship is in all likelihood done. Snooping and finding out might get you closure, but not finding out will not be the end of it. It's not about the rightness or wrongness of snooping around, but about the utility of it.

The overwhelming need, however, is inspired by the right-here-right-now facts of the moment. It isn't something necessarily indicates a problem trend or past issues or whatever. It's more like "Dude! Wait, what's going on?" My issue must be that I don't see this as a violation of privacy or snooping or being paranoid... no, this is following up on facts and evidence. Heh... how obvious do the bloody footprints have to be for someone to follow them?

Now, if you put this issue on a long enough time line and the guy is really unsettled and paranoid? Yeah, the other issue comes into play.

I'm sure Manic will come back around with an opinion, but:
1) I don't recall anyone talking about bad guys
2) your point of view of seems to be rather narrow, as if every relationship that ends up in one partner cheating involves a good-hearted, attentive, loving person who has done everything they can to keep the relationship healthy, and an evil partner who doesn't give a shit. I doubt that is the case most of the time.

Plus, I have witnessed more than several conversations here at TFP where women were lambasted for snooping on their boyfriend's/husband's computers because they thought they were cheating. What were they told? You should talk to him - snooping is bad, that is his private property.
Either the climate has changed very drastically or there is a double standard.

1) Bad guy, as far as defined by this scenario, would be going to play poke-poke outside the relationship. Can't really debate that point a whole lot.

2) Yes. My view is pretty dang narrow because I'm trying to fit it into this one scenario somehow with only half the story... all while not being a cynical prick. No, I don't believe that there is always a "loving partner" and a "cheating evil-doer." I do, however, believe that someone has to be the "bad guy" first through action. That and it isn't really a crime to be an asshole... some assholes are even happily married. Based on my life experience, there is "the occupied and oblivious partner and the cheater" or the "aimless and mediocre partner and the cheater." I've been the dunce in both cases and I'll admit it. Can't blame the landmine if you step on it. I've learned a lot from it. Got outta those situations unscathed and with the benefit of perspective.

...

Climate is different today. Like David Bowie stuttered: ch-ch-changes! I'm not a genius, but I'll learn eventually.

Thank you Dip and MM. This:

and this:

are a large part of the point I've made.

Cromp, I think you're focusing far too much on my individual sentences and missing the larger point. Most of my contributions to this thread have been made while the answer as to whether or not she's been unfaithful was still up in the air.

While refusing to excuse his fucked up behavior and ignore the questionable and downright hypocritical position you operate from when you set out to investigate the possible violation of your trust via the violation of the trust given to you by another, I've never downplayed the OPs right to know if he's been cheated on. I've merely suggested we not pretend as if spontaneous infidelity is some naturally occurring phenomenon and that through this unfortunate revelation, the OP has discovered the source of everything wrong with his relationship.

His panty raiding paranoia isn't a reaction and serves as indicative of a much larger problem. All of the advice here that encourages it is as dumb as it is unhelpful.

The big issue is that their relationship is so astronomically fucked that it came to all of this and nothing - not even proof that she's the most notorious "cock bobbing" cheater changes any of that. Your apparent fixation upon finding her out says more about you than it does this discussion.

You're ridiculous.

that's what I'm trying to get at...being that we have very limited information to go on, framing this as a good guy, bad guy situation is not very constructive

Now, as for the wrongs that can be done in a relationship (and I'm not including obvious offenses such as abuse), cheating is just one of them and not even a particularly significant one. I know very few people whose marriages ended by cheating, but very, very many whose ended because they weren't getting what they needed in other ways from the relationship.

I agree that cheating is wrong and am not trying to say that people who cheat are 'less bad' than any others. Just that, like I said before, there are other ways of betraying a spouse that are just as 'wrong.' Without having a total picture to go by, it's hard to define what is going on in any given relationship.

MixedMedia,

Yeah, given the limited information... I'll just speculate. Conjecture and anecdotes. That's what TFP is largely for, right? Correct me...

Your last post would be a lot more fun if you had decided to include examples. Especially since I have it in my silly little head that fucking someone outside a relationship without permission is a little more than "significant" to most people. The activity is petty, but the related drama is not.

...

ManicSkafe,

I'm ridiculous. And tired of this conversation. It's like juggling wet poodles.

Sounds to me like you've never been in a long-term relationship.

I didn't mean to say that fucking around isn't significant, what I meant was that I've seen many more marriages end because of things like: being cold, emotionally unavailable, disinterest, lack of support, financially irresponsibility, addiction to drugs or alcohol. In fact, I'm sure I've read somewhere that money troubles and detachment are more likely to be fatal to a marriage than sexual infidelity. Momentary drama is far easier to get past than is years of unhappiness.

Long term being more than 2 years? No. I'm a relationship greenhorn, a serial monogamist. I've only done the move-in with a few girls, bought major appliances, I was married and have purchased a house. But no duration worth speaking of... my seemingly endless succession of one or two year long relationships all end due to distance issues or... infidelity. *rimshot* Are you "more qualified" to talk about relationships? Mmmm, I dunno.

Don't particularly think I need to be with someone for a decade to figure out that the aforementioned don't-dos are bad thing, though.

...

I figure these things you list... they aren't mutually exclusive. Sexual infidelity often results from dealing with an emotionally detached partner, etc.

Been wondering about Spiker. Hadn't updated in days...

Could be years. Good thing we're here to kick this dead horse into the next decade.

I don't think the opinions have changed because of the genders involved. There are the same extremes ranging from "they made me snoop\I'm a victim" to "talking solves everything, and people always tell the truth and know what they want", and the actual life answers in between.

Why do you think this is different?

This thread truly disturbs me. I was recently cheated on by someone I loved and it is ABSOLUTELY tearing me apart. Reading this thread is like watching a crime scene.. can't look away no matter how unsettling. I really don't understand how someone could do something like this to someone they supposedly love. I would like to hear what the "new" evidence was and what made her confess, etc. It's your life so obviously keep it private if you wish although you've already shared this much, but in any case I wish you good luck in the future.

Hey, what have we got until SwingGirl/WarMoney report on their quest??? :D

Well, I can start doing anon posts of some of my paper journal entries from 1997...

The answer probably isn't the same for every situation. But the question is whether the infidelity is a symptom of another problem, or the problem itself. Without knowing the answer to that it's hard to figure out what's really going on.

I tend to think of it as a symptom.

Gee, I wonder which of you guys has been cheated on in the past.

Just an observation. Other than that, I see I have missed this thread completely. I do hope the OP works everything out though, that is a tough situation.

*rimshot*

you're onto something. maybe make up an excuse of why you were in her bag? or say a little birdy told me