Could Really Use Some Opinions Please....
 

Hey Everyone;

I have a strong suspicion that may wife may have been unfaithful. I'll lay out the situation and could really use some thoughts.

She went up to visit a long time, 30 year long girlfriend this past weekend, this same GF was down at our place with he husband two weeks ago. My wife and I got into a pretty good fight that weekend and it made things a bit awkward to say the least. That fight led us to the point of contemplating separation but cooler heads prevailed and a week later she said she didn't want to leave. that weekend they were here they drank a bunch of wine and got pretty looped.

So she decided to go visit this GF this past weekend. My suspicion is that there was a threesome had and I get that feeling due to;

-Saturday morning she shaved her private areas which had not been done in a while. I was home from the gym before she left and noticed she got dressed by putting her panties on with her housecoat still on, she did not get totally naked like she normally does. I get the feeling she was trying to conceal? Last night in bed I felt her and commented surprisingly that she had shaved, she replied yes so in case she wanted to jump my bones when she got home. She then offered up a quickie even though she was a complete wreck due to a hangover.

-I checked the bag she left with this morning and found she had taken some black lingerie bottoms, a thong and another type. She wore a black bra when she left. She had also packed a matching bra/thong. The black pair of lacy panties had very obviously been worn, there was a significant amount of female "juice" on the panties, she had obviously been pretty wet? Why would she pack so much "lingerie" for one night? If she wore a pair of panties up and another pair home, why and when did she wear these black ones?

-while she is normally very conservative sexually, she has a had threesomes twice in the past, once with me. Lately due to relationship trouble our sex life has been very routine and although she has never said anything I've noticed it. Her two threesomes were years apart and with a good friend of hers. she was drunk both times. Is it possible that she could go there with a life long friend?

I sent her a message this morning telling her I had a weird feeling and she of course has asked why and what she did to make me feel that way. I said just leave it it was just my head spinning from our recent issues.

Am I totally paranoid or do you think I'm on to something? how do I proceed from here? I cant confront her about going through her bag but I just knew something was not right and there are these panties heavily soiled.

Could this have been some planned thing?

WTF do I do with this? Given that we were so close to losing our relationship I dont know how to tread?

Thanks!

I don't think you're paranoid. Her behavior is definitely suspect, boss. Something slinky is afoot here.

It's been my experience that women don't shave their crotches and don thongs for movie night with the girls.

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Just to clarify, are you worried about the threesomes or just infidelity in general?

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The Borg-like masses of the TFP always stress the "communication" thing. It's a good idea.

You have legitimate concerns based on evidence here. You should tell her what you've told us.

Being the cynical bastard that I am, I would make sure I've fortified my position before I make any accusations.

I'm with Plan9. Something is definitely off color here.

She can quickly turn this argument around by stating something along the lines of "How dare you go through my things!?" so I'd have my base covered there, if possible.

Confront her.

Yep. Gotta concur. Confront her. You've got some damn solid circumstantial evidence, and a strong gut feeling, which has to count for something. There will be no resolution until you confront her, and you sure won't feel any better until you do.

I'm a sneaky bastard so my mind automatically goes for the path of least resistance. Confront her friend and husband instead. Tell them you heard about the good time they had when your wife was visiting and you were wondering they would mind if you came with next time. Gauge their response as they won't be expecting you to ask them about it, in a cheating situation they expect the husband to go to the wife about it, then the wife warns the other party to play it cool. In this case you have your bases covered as you can always feign ignorance and say you were talking about what a good time they had hanging out, watching movies, etc and that you'd love to join in on the good times too.

Worst case scenario they feel really awkward and lie, tip off your wife that you might suspect something and then either get a confession out of her or she continues lying, whereas you leave her cheating ass on the curb and feeling righteous doing so. Best case scenario you get them to slip up, confront your wife and rub her nose in the shit, leave her cheating ass on the curb and feel righteous doing so.

I like evilmatt.

Hell, that sounds like a Michael Douglas movie.

Of course, taking evilmatt's idea a step further, call the friend, tell them that your wife admitted the threesome, and tell them that you would love to invite them down to return the favour.

People who know there's a secret will group together to keep each others secrets. Once someone thinks the secret's out, they're relived to find that it's all over so they confess.

Failing that, also you can tell your wife that you've spoken to her friend who let it slip that she's had sex whilst up there, and you want to clear the air be her explaining exactly what she did in order to get through it.

If going for divorce, how much does the guy need to document this situation so as to prevent a (more) negative outcome?

If he just does the "let's talk, honey" thing and she decides to get all Legal Fu on him... he may have lost his first strike advantage.

Not a good idea, considering he doesn't actually know any sex took place. Could be a very quick way to make himself look like an ass.

Just hire a PI to get some pictures of the deed, that way when the divorce happens you'll have ammo to show she's the one screwing around on you. If the PI can't get any dirt, then it probably isn't happening so you won't have to worry about a divorce.

I don't think your evidence is quite as solid. If you didn’t know your wife had been in threesomes before, would it all seem as clear to you? Why couldn’t she have shaved because she felt like it? Is that really so hard to believe?

What about black lingerie means she's cheating? I wear black most days. Is she always in white lingerie and now suddenly it’s black? That would seem more of a weird thing I suppose.

Soiled panties...err how weird would it be to know your partner had gone through your bag and drawn conclusions from your dirty undies? Yeah, I’d find more evidence first.
She offered you a quickie even though she was tired...well, tired doesn’t mean not horny. I suppose if it’s blatantly obvious that she is doing sexy things but it’s totally not directed at you, then maybe I’d wonder. But you still need to be sure before you confront her and end up making an ass of yourself, and ruining what you have salvaged of your relationship together.

I think you should try to have sex with her friend.

If you have the panties, you could always go CSI on them.

You could use a UV lamp and look for the characteristic fluorescence of semen. Given the right (relatively simple) reagents you could even test for semen. In fact, if you keep them before they're washed, you could spend a couple of hundred dollars and have a DNA test done on them to find out who donated the semen.

All of these are TECHNICALLY possible, but not necessarily sensible.

The best option is to talk to your wife and explain that you are tearing yourself apart with worry over all these pieces.

If she wants to fix things, she may explain, and if she wants to end it all, she'll tell you to go to hell and pack a bag (I expect).

Yeah, the reason I suggested the sneaky route that I did is because you don't want to tip your hand too much. Anyone can go all berzerker and start flinging accusations but in the event of cheating without evidence, you need to be much craftier. So intimate, insinuate. Covert, not overt , you know?

And no, do not go sleep with her friend. This isn't high school, if he did something like that his wife could nail his balls to a 2x4 in court when her friend testifies that she did in fact sleep with him while conveniently leaving out that she had also slept with the wife. Just play your cards close to your chest, get a confession out of the friend, husband or wife and move on with your life. I think it's goes without saying if you suspect your spouse is cheating on you, and I mean really cheating not just some emotional affair, they likely are. People are far more intuitive than they give themselves credit for.

I wouldn't contact her friends. It will get back to her and if you are wrong about your suspicions you'll end up with egg on your face and probably be headed for another fight.

Good luck on this whatever road you choose.

Little Tippler, what raises my doubts is she took a lot of lingerie type panties with her, as in a black thong, black lacy panties and then a colored set of matching bra/thong. For one night?

If she came home Sunday and wanted to get busy with me and had a shower and shaved it would make more sense to me.

Things just are not adding up.

---------- Post added at 04:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:50 PM ----------

I dont know what to do with this.

I think I speak face to face with her, I'm away fr a few days. When I get home I just ask her to be honest and tell me if there has been any infidelity. If she comes clean we deal with it. If she says no I guess I have no choice but to go with the flow for a while and see what comes?

I think that taking some time to calmly reflect on it all, and talk to her later may well be the best option.

You are telling me that you don't have this kit already?

InSite Semen Detection Kit ::: Is She Cheating?
TruTest infidelity kits and DNA semen testing catch cheating wife,husband,partner.

I guess you do have to make sure it isn't your sperm that it's detecting however.

The best approach, especially given you are having relationship issues, is to talk to her about it. Talk to her about your concerns. Confront her but don't be confrontational. Playing games by asking her friends or trying to entrap her is just childish and will exacerbate any trust issues you have with her buy giving her reasons to not trust you (i.e. escalation of the situation).

Speak to her.

Just curious, would you be OK with the threesome if it were a foursome? If the answer is yes, you might offer her that option. Just a thought.

That could also be a covert way of having her admit to the threesome if you went about it in the right way.

Not to state the obvious but the OP said he emailed her saying he was feeling off, the wife asked what she did that could possibly cause him to feel that way. If confronting her with no real evidence would work, it would've elicited some sort of response from her when he said what he did. Instead she's playing games and, as they say, game on. Talk to the friend and husband first, get them to slip up and then you confront her.

Game on will just lead to further confusion and hurt feelings.

Emailing her is being a pussy about it. He needs to sit her down and have a face-to-face conversation about the fact that he suspects her of cheating and the reasons he feels this way. When I say don't be confrontational, I mean don't be a dick about it. Be genuine. Tell her that you have these suspicions and are not happy about it. Get her to help you clear the issue or come clean about the affair. Regardless of the answer, if you still can't trust her nothing she says is going to fix this and you will need to consider moving on without her.

Be direct but don't be a dick.

I know everyone lies, but why not ask questions? That way he isn't accusing his wife of anything. She may feel horribly guilty about it and want to confess but is afraid of his reaction. His asking may break open the flood gates and they get to the root of whatever it is that is obviously brewing between them.

Perhaps I'm just naive...

Once he reveals his position, she can navigate around it if she so chooses. It is better to figure out how deep the crap goes before wading into it, dude.

For sure. But wouldn't asking questions be one way of doing that? Not the only way of course... but at least get her side of it?


Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending her. I personally believe that at the end of the day no one gives a toss about anyone but themselves. As such they will do whatever it takes to screw you over so they will come out on top.

Plan9 is right.

Also, and this is from personal experience, if she did in fact cheat on her husband with another couple then she very, VERY likely feels no remorse at present time. Maybe down the road but definitely not now. All she will do when confronted with a patchwork of half-evidence is get indignant, clam up and things will be way uglier as she'll throw out accusations like, "we're married, why would you ever think I was capable of such a horrible thing" and "oh how awful a person I must be in your eyes" and lord knows lots of other things meant to guilt-trip him into a false sense of mistaken circumstances. I mean really, how could he ever think she could cheat on him. How horrible a person he must be to think she's even capable of that!

Bullshit. If he plays it cool, does the smart thing and compiles a lot more proof that she's cheating then when he confronts her and she gets the aforementioned indignant, up-clammy and ugly he can say, "look, I know you did it. i have all the proof I need. now go away." She can't try and make him feel like shit for accusing her of something she now knows they both know about. Just can't happen. She can call him all the names in the world, none of which can stand up to the most important one in that situation: lecherous cheater.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree.

You are approaching this with the mind that she is guilty. I am not.

The issue isn't whether or not she cheated. The real issue is whether or not he can trust her at all. If he can't trust her, he needs to decide for himself if this is a relationship he wants to be in.

I just figure it's better to approach a dark room ready to defend yourself than just waltzing on in and getting clocked from behind. Infidelity is way likely.

I've been clocked from behind by a few partners. I've been clocked straight in the face. Neither feels good. So now I'm all about the Martin-Baker routine.

Utter bullhonky, dude. The issue here is totally about if she cheated or not. Trust is related to actions; it's not some amorphous concept off by itself. Trust is like a NASA o-ring testing log... they either get tested every day or you've missed one. If you missed one, it's a big deal. I don't get how you're separating the two. Please explain. I figure if she didn't cheat, he can trust her. If she did cheat, he can't trust her. This isn't Minority Report; we can't see the future. We have to go on what has been done and what has not been done. My next significant other might be a gigundo cheating 'ho-bag at heart, but I'll trust her 100% until she does something and I find out about it. That's the only way to get any sleep at night. I assume fidelity until proven otherwise but I have a "business continuity plan" in place for if/when said event occurs so I don't end up crippled by some surprise blow.

It seems all the focus is getting her to admit her betrayal or catch her in a lie but let's not forget that whether she's cheated or not, your relationship is still seriously fucked up. There's an obvious lack of trust, respect and a whole host of other things that'll need to be mended before you can consider what you two to have to be a relationship - let alone a marriage.

I can empathize with how you feel but I hope to hell you've given at least some thought to the impending shitstorm coming your way whether she confirms or denies your suspicions.

Oh, no doubt. But is there such a creature as "a slight degree of infidelity," Skafe? I'm curious. President Clinton Infidelity Light?

And based on the OP, I believe that his suspicions are incident-based... he doesn't yet strike me as a paranoid, controlling douchebag.

I am seeing like Skafe.

His relationship is already fucked up. Assume for the moment that she is innocent and he approaches with these accusations or worse, proceeds to poke around asking questions of her friends. Now he not only has to deal with the fact that his inner voice doesn't trust her but the fact that she now believes he doesn't trust her. He has effectively broken her trust.

If she is guilty, he needs to decide if he wants to continue the relationship.


From his opening post, he has already pretty much assumed she is guilty and he just wants to prove it. My ultimate answer is, Why bother? He doesn't trust her. She's guilty in his mind and he's just looking for proof. Why wait? The trust is already gone and he is just looking for something more substantial to throw in her face.

Make the decision now to move on, or... have a talk with her. Start from the idea that he doesn't trust her and see where it goes. There might be a way to salvage it from that starting point. But most of it is going to be on him rebuilding his trust of her.

Only if in the process of preparing for a surprise threesome she couldn't quite help herself after accidentally spilling cake batter on the busty co-worker she brought home for you. I'd be happy to forgive such a transgression so long as there's more than enough pie left for me.

I also believe the OP as it seems he has legitimate cause for concern. However, I'd like to think he's give at least some thought to what happens after he's cracked the case.

Also: Where the hell are all these surprise MFF threesomes and why I am usually alone on a Saturday night with a can of tuna and a West law textbook?

Lucky fuckers.

Big surprise, I agree with Charlatan. All of the 'well-laid plans' for 'finding her out' without actually confronting her sound a little too slick. I've been on the planet long enough to know that those sorts of plans usually end up in one place - backfire!

There is no substitute for meeting confrontation in a relationship head on. What if she did nothing and then sees that you took such a circuitous, sneaky route to finding out? There is more to betrayal, after all, than fucking around. Even if she did have sex, then the matter will resolve itself either way...without involving other people unnecessarily.

Keep it simple.

I think he needs to bother, so that he knows what the real problem is. Is the problem that he unrealistically doesn't trust her, or is the problem that he realistically doesn't trust her. Both are fixable, one way or another. If she's not cheating then he needs to work on his paranoia, otherwise he needs to decide if one of them needs to hit the road.

Confronting her is probably the only way he will figure this out. If he does it right and doesn't alienate her, ( if she's innocent ), then she can help him and they can still have a good relationship. Maybe even a stronger one.

I've mistrusted people in the past only to learn I was wrong. Once I figured out I was wrong, by asking or even snooping, then I was able to work towards a solution in the proper context.

I think the problem with just asking at this point might be that he kind of already has, so he might need to gather more "proof" to revisit the question. I wouldn't sit on it too long, however.

This shit is always confusing, no?

It is very confusing. I just don't know what to do. What bothers me the most is that if this did happen, she went prepared, it was planned. If it just happened from too much alcohol I could make better sense of it.

I did approach her by Blackberry yesterday morning as she had flipped me a message. She apologized that I feel the way I do and asked me what has caused it?

I'm beginning to think I should just leave well enough alone for now. She now knows that I have a strong hunch something happened. If she ever goes to visit that friend again, I will insist that I go along for the weekend with her.

She's never going to admit it if I try to discuss it. She wanted to keep this relationship and has otherwise been very affectionate and "normal". Maybe I'm best to just let it lay for now and work on building the relationship back up and kind of follow her lead?

Other than the fact that they may have restraint enough not to throw each other down and get to business right in front of you, tagging along the next time won't really prove anything. Certainly not anything about this particular case in which you suspect that you trust may have been violated.

And just as I've written previously, the violation of your trust is only a part of the extent to which your relationship is fucked. You don't trust her and whether she knows it or not, she has every reason not to trust you.

You two shouldn't have to live like that.

You asked for opinions, so here you go: communication by text/email is NOT the same as face-to-face communication. You should not be discussing your feelings via these media--you should be talking about them in person. Email and text do not carry the same amount of information as face-to-face communication. Speaking about this in person is in your favor; you will gather more information from a conversation where you can watch her respond. Nonverbal cues are a huge part of interpersonal communication.

It sounds like you need a lot of work on the communication front in general. You should look for information on how to improve the communication climate in your relationship and how to effectively manage conflict. Based on what you've said, it sounds as if you have a negative communication climate in your relationship and use ineffective conflict management strategies.

Why? What is this... mutually-assured destruction logic?

Um, perhaps he's referring to the bit where he searched her luggage and examined her panties.

You very well may support the manner in which the OP has behaved in attempting to crack the case so long as his actions were motivated much more so by some warped sense of self-interest (nobody threatens my cans of tuna/boxes of cheerios/ "Spartan Lifestyle") than plainly being vindictive but I disagree. The ends very well may justify the means but a relationship founded on mutual trust and respect wouldn't have allowed for all of this.

Simply put, he's violated her trust as well.

Aaah, the old circular argument:

A: Something Is Weird - He Doesn't Look
- wouldn't find anything
- somehow "trust" would still be there

B: Something Is Weird - He Looks
- discovers tangible weird things
- "trust" is gone fo-eva

So where is the win? Gently interrogating his partner and hoping for truth?

Don't be naive, dude. I'm sure you've told plenty of lies in your time, too.

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My point: If he isn't comfortable enough with his wife to talk to her face-to-face, doubt moved in a long time ago.

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Also: Somebody show me the "trust vs. doubt" continuum. Enlighten me.

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Spartan? Hah... hardly. I prefer two-ply.

"Spartan" was a reference to our Lord Rollins.

Firstly, we're talking about dealing with women here - there is no winning.

Secondly, I've already said in this thread that I can empathize with the OP and can even imagine myself snooping exactly as he did. However, regardless of whether his suspicions are confirmed or not, two wrongs don't make a right. Pedantic or not, it's still true.

Where has it been argued that a good and healthy relationship is entirely devoid of doubt? I've lied and have been lied to in my dealings with the fairer sex and if there's anything it's taught me. it's that relationships are far too dynamic and complex to be nailed down by concepts as inaccurate and inflexible as trust and doubt.

To be clear, I have no real problem with the fact that he's snooped and I even disagree with those that believe their relationship to be so far-gone that whether or not she's cheated is irrelevant since it'd only be another nail in the coffin. The truth of the matter counts and he has every right to know whether or not he's been betrayed.

However, none of that excuses his own wrongdoings.

I didn't think to offer it up before, but I think it's relevant enough to cast a little mercy the way of the wife.

When I travel, I always pack my best underwear and often I pack matching underwear. Doesn't mean someone is going to see it. It means I feel that I am away from my regular world and want to feel a little more 'put together' than I am normally. It's a girly thing, but there it is.

As for the trust issue, yes, by the time you've gone through the luggage and checked out the crotch of the panties, something is already wrong - regardless of what she did or did not do. The only real evidence to go on in this situation is the fact that she had threesomes in the past and told him about it. Now it has become a pendulum hanging over her head. If she is innocent, then that kind of sucks.

But back to the point of the conversation, the best way to get to the bottom of this is to sit down and talk about it. Maybe that's not possible given the already volatile circumstances, but snooping around is not a constructive or viable alternative, in my opinion. It's Jerry Springer show behavior - the very model of relationship disaster scenarios.

I was mulling this scenario over in the shower earlier, and several things that occurred to me: 1) yes, I shave for special occasions, regardless of whether those occasions involve my SO or not, 2) said shaving often results in juicier panties as there is less hair to catch said juices, regardless of whether or not I'm hot and bothered, 3) certain vaginal conditions can also result in juicier panties than usual, such as yeast infections. Additionally, wearing sexy panties is something women do when they want to feel special--it doesn't necessarily mean a woman is looking to get some.

As for the past threesome thing, using it in this conflict is really nothing more than a kind of ambush, as mm suggested.

Really good points mixedmedia and snowy, I still cant get my head around the fact that she left in one pair of underwear as I watched her get dressed, came home in a different pair and some where in between she wore these black lacy ones? She'd already showered etc before she left our place. Cant get my head around it.

You need to just ask her. :)
I don't want to come off as unnecessarily harsh on you. My reactions have been directed more at the pile-on that seemed to happen at the beginning of this conversation.
There are other possible explanations for the things you've observed, it's important to remain open to them, I think. It's a particularly difficult situation because of your recent argument and you probably feel a little like you're walking on eggshells. But it's important to air your suspicions and get past it, otherwise they will persist in haunting you every time you 'notice something' about your wife, know what I mean?

I would just like to say that I am in complete agreement with Skafe, Snowy and Mixedmedia on this. I would also like to emphasize that I don't want to suggest the relationship is over. It might be but it's impossible to say with the limited information we have here.

The key is to communicate clearly and openly with her how you are feeling. If you can't get over your feelings of mistrust, you will have to make some decisions.

I wish I had some sage advice to offer, but in this situation, it's slim. As a guy who had his life ripped apart by a cheater, it's never easy to look at a situation objectively when you're in the thick of it.



You could, however, take the Sit Com route...

Wait for a night when she comes home after you from work. Work yourself into a hysterical fit, at least the male equivalent of it. When she comes in, try to act like nothing is wrong. Sniffle a bit. Cry silently. When she persists, give her a mild verbal lash-out. "I know what you did!" "I can't believe you'd do something like that after all this time!" "I know I haven't been perfect, but this?!" Etc...

Be vague on purpose. Be angry enough to act like you've been cuckolded and found out, but be sad enough to really seem hurt to the core. More hurt than angry. Women are emotional beings. If she picks up on your general tone, your vague words might just twinge her guilt button. If she has a heart, this is where she will apologize profusely, begin crying, and swear to be faithful from here on out.

At that point you sniffle a few times, stop crying, and say "What?" She repeats herself. You say, "You cheated on me?! I was just angry you left the milk out again!"

You're innocent of suspicion of her, she admits guilt, and you end up the on the moral high-ground.

Ba-dump-bump.

If she questions you later on why the milk caused such melodrama, just say, "It involves tobasco, a milk cow named Beatrice, and a rodeo clown ...but I can say no more! The pain after all these years! Still so fresh... *sob*"

Nothing like the passive aggressive approach to make a tough situation better.

(that was sarcasm by the way)

Spiker, man , get out now, no not the marriage. Man some of these people are just twisting you up to spin so they can live vicariously through your experience. You know what to do. I've been so angry at my husband, then we made up and I got super drunk and did the whole weed wacker thing too, that was still for him. just because her panties were wet, doesn't mean shit, she could have been thinking about you.

The real question is if YOU want to make it work or not. If you do want to make it work then get involved with her again, to the point where you are the one she wants to have sex with. At this point the only thing you'll prove with confrontation, is either you don't trust her, or your looking for a way out.

Yarp! :) That's why it's the "Sit Com" approach. As in, "this shit only works on television!" haha

I liked that method. I'll have to remember it (though hopefully will never have to use it).

I'm not trying to live vicariously through Spiker, I'm trying to prevent another trusting husband getting his heart ripped out of his chest and stomped on by a woman who thinks she has a right to do it because of some misguided and righteous indignation. My strategy of approaching the friend and husband has all tracks covered if his wife isn't cheating on him. Even if they go to his wife and tell her they think he suspects something it's all good in the hood, he just wanted to ask them if he could swing with next time she was heading up to their place because he likes spending time with friends.

If there's no trust in the relationship no amount of lying is going to change that, she's going to lie about her infidelity for certain. No one confesses that shit until everything is over. Best he knows what time it is instead of waiting and hoping his wife has some brilliant flash of conscience that's never coming.

I think it is very interesting how this thread reveals the character of some people. I'd like to know more. Good stuff.

Well, my suspicions were right, just a different scenario. She was not a her GF's, she met a married co-worker at a hotel and had a affair. She confessed this morning after I uncovered more evidence.

So tonight we sit down, she doesn't really know what she wants. I can get passed the infidelity with time to salvage our relationship and family. I'm crushed, but I still do love the woman.

So, what was her reason for the infidelity?

I'm really sorry to hear that. Similiiar thing happened to me. After some ineffective counseling and some snooping I confirmed what I suspected. Even after the pain and betrayal I was willing to take her back. Luckily I did not as I am a better person for it and was acting out of fear and trying to cling to past.
For me a drunken one night stand is much easier to accept than a planned event. Feel free to PM me if you wish. You're about to start a long road, but if you make some good and thoughtful decisions it can be less bumpy.

Yes, very sorry to hear your suspicions were correct. Having been through that I know firsthand how awful it feels. Just remember you're fine, you'll continue to be fine and everything will be alright.

Funny though, if you had gone the route I suggested her friend and husband would have no idea what you were talking about and that would've been very interesting indeed.

Keep your chin up, remember once a cheater, always a cheater. Don't get suckered into being a sucker. :)

wow, I'm really sorry, but I'm glad that you approached her and got the truth.
being that she took such little care to cover it up...perhaps, as they say, she wanted to get caught.
move carefully from here on out.

Oh, I see how it is. Now that the crime is uncovered... the evidence is good.

well, her telling him is pretty convincing evidence
are you under the impression that everything is always as it seems to you?

Spiker:

I really sorry to hear that. As a very similar thing happened to my best friend, I have seen it's impact. It's really tough to get over the breach of trust.

How long have you been married?
Do you have any children together?

P.S. Feel free to go tell the wife of the co-worker. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

Good luck Spiker, I hope for you and your family everything works out and you can both find happiness, preferably together. No marriage is perfect.

Yeah I know, right? Not much changed about the evidence that caused his initial suspicions so it looks like those of us that called a spade a spade were right after all. Intuition is so very powerful, people should trust it and not assume people are innocent before being proven guilty if they suspect they're guilty from the get-go. It might not fly on a jury but when it comes to those close to you lying and deceiving you, your intuition is the best armor for your heart.

All I did was offer alternatives. With an emphasis on talking about it rather than playing detective with her friends. It was just as likely that other scenarios would have been true.

I'm remembering this conversation the next time one of those 'I think my boyfriend is cheating so I snooped on his computer' discussions happen.

Of course, calling the friend would have elicited some truth, as the story of "I went to see X" wouldn't tally with "she wasn't here" - given enough discussion this breaks down.

As it happens, this was exactly how I found about my ex wife's infidelity - she "visited a friend" while I looked after our toddler and built bookcases, but when I asked her what she'd done for two days she cracked totally and her story evaporated.

Within 6 hours of her coming home she'd spilled the beans and our marriage was over.

What's that even supposed to mean and why does it read as judgmental and prickish - both of which are unlike you.

The evidence was never in question but rather the morality of the methods employed in finding it. If you find it so hard to agree with the obviously reasonable notion that one should respect their partner's privacy so as to not rummage through their things and turn a microscope to their underwear then you really should just agree to disagree.

The fact that she was actually carrying on an affair is no more a validation of his actions than her cheating is anything more than one of the many issues from which this relationship is suffering.

What's your point?

---------- Post added at 09:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 PM ----------

And it's not like your assertion is only based on one half of a fraction of a story told via an internet forum. Brilliant.

Well seeing as we're on an Internet forum and can only post responses based on our opinions regarding the story being told, I think I am perfectly in line. If no one is supposed to make assertions "based on one half of a fraction of a story" then it would be a really boring Internet. Instead we get to glean what few fact we can from what someone is willing to tell us and go with it.

And in this case I was totally right. Tragic, but right.

How were you totally right? You suggested he make a call to her friends that would have only made things worse.

Spiker, I got 2 words for you.


STD TEST


Just cover your bases man...

Recovering trust in one another will be difficult. She owned up to her affair, but how much evidence was required before the breaking point? Some thoughts to consider.

1. How will the affair affect your wife at work? If she interacts regularly with this fellow, she may need to quit or be reassigned elsewhere, and if her boss discovers what happened, her employment could be terminated.
2. Should the wife of the other man be informed? They may have children together, and calling her up could result in a broken home. For all you know, she could also be cheating on him.
3. Will you forgive her and attempt to mend the damage? Being caught with the knowledge that you no longer trust her could drive your wife even further away, causing her to simply be more discreet in her future affairs.

Totally right in that she was being unfaithful. The call to her friend and husband would have confirmed his fears as well, as they would have no idea what he was talking about with regards to her being at their place. If she's such an upstanding person as to lie to her husband and cheat on him, well maybe losing a friend or two out of the deal isn't the worst thing.

Everything I had to say in this thread has already been said, with the exception of the following.

Prefaced by the fact that I am neither a doctor nor expert on female reproductive systems, I am the owner of a vagina. According to one "Dr. Oz", amongst others, the va-jay-jay is a self cleansing organ (NO douching!).

It's the one hole men don't have and, yes, the moisture ends up somewhere. It ends up in our underwear unless a pad is involved (for most of us that's when Aunt Flo is around). My point is that, even though I think the wife in this situation is/was suspect, visible anything on BLACK panties is NO evidence that some other guy has been there. Then again, I don't know because I haven't been in that situation in 21 yrs.:oogle:

Totally right in having confirmed the popular assessment of your advice as the least useful offered. And now you're patting yourself on the back because you've wagered properly when the odds were one out of two. Aren't we lucky to have a soothsayer such as yourself 'round these parts.

Get real.

evilmatt,

The only difference between you and those who are arguing with you are that they recommended a different method of flushing out the truth. I believe most of us were as suspicious as the OP that something just wasn't right about this out of town trip.

Perhaps because you read it wrong. I do have an off switch for my sarcasm, bro. I find the content of this thread very interesting because I've experienced similar situations in my life and I wonder if others have as well and how they dealt with them. The philosophy involved is intriguing. How do I justify my complacency? How do I justify my "morality" despite being stonewalled by a partner? So... Frankie Says Relax, Skafe.

And hey, I can be just as judgmental and prickish as any other forum post champ in here. Are you pissed because you have competition or something?

:D

Well-well, I shall agree to disagree then. We see this situation differently. In legal terms, you seem to see it as "fruit of the poisonous tree," whereas I see it as "plain sight" and "inevitable discovery." My point is not that he shouldn't have searched, but that when he did search (and I recognize it was "wrong") based on That Wonky Feelin', he uncovered something that added to those wonky facts. It went from reasonable suspicion to probable cause. Sure, she confessed, but even before that there was a little more than "one out of two" chance that she was cheating, dude.

I can't believe I'm going to say it but: People cheat all the time. Why think your relationship is any different? Because you "know" your partner? Hah! Hell, I've been cheated on twice. Sadly, I wouldn't know anything about partner privacy. I've never had any, myself. My last few partners fixed me of that little hurdle. They used to dig and dig in "my stuff" and yet they were the ones that decided to bounce on another crotch. Oh, the irony.

As is with all things in life, there is a difference between the mission statement hanging on the wall and the reality of the job.

Relationships are no different.

Well we all have our talents - don't cramp my style.

I don't think anyone has argued the point you're attempting to counter. Some suggested offering her the benefit of the doubt which is more than reasonable enough but, yeah - what's wrong is still wrong regardless of what's at stake.

Contrary to what you've suggested, I've written everything I've posted in this thread not only with an understanding that in The Real World people cheat but also with the belief that by the time the need to invade the privacy of your partner arises, infidelity is very likely the least of issues from which your relationship suffers.

...

I was just thinking, you know he searched the bag and it produced evidence. The question I have, Striker, is what motivated you to search the bag? Was it simply that she shaved that had you check it when she came back? I suppose all of this is rather unimportant at this point - you've got bigger fish to fry. Hope you find peace, man.

If I was a chick, I wouldn't go somewhere for one night with three pairs of sexy undies and freshly shaved (out of routine) unless I was planning on showing someone.

The direct approach paid off, now it's all about getting to the rationale and making your decisions from there.

Dude, I'm so confused here. I need like... 7th grade reading level... I need flash cards with pictures. Maybe dinosaurs, too. Dinosaurs are gnarly.

This "by the time the need to invade the privacy of your partner arises, infidelity is very likely the least of issues" bit makes zero sense to me, Hoss. It's a reaction, not an action. Said reaction would not have occurred without the initial action by his wife. There is an activity trigger threshold. Consider it like the trigger pull on a pistol, with the pressure on the trigger being evidence and reasonableness as related to the likelihood of Something Wonky. See, you can touch the trigger without the gun going off (she's distant), you can even apply some pressure to the trigger, squeezing it a little, without the gun going off (we don't have sex much)... but the gun only discharges when you provide enough pressure on the trigger (she shaved her snatch'o'doodle and is being really secretive). In this case: I do not dig around in my partner's stuff without seeing that they're shaving the privates for the first time in months/years and notice they're being Really Friggin' Sneakret Squirrel (TM). Is it "wrong?" Yes. A sense of personal privacy is important (in some weird way I haven't quite figured out yet). Is it justified? Probably. If nothing comes of it? __awkward moment text__. But if you uncover something, you just dodged that bullet.

Let's say Guy A is completely clueless about any relationship issues until his wife starts doing stuff that a Law & Order camera man would do a four second "this is important" pause shot of... and then suddenly Guy A finds himself with That Wonky Feeling (TM). Something fishy is afoot and he chooses to investigate. What exactly are you trying to convey to me by suggesting that the instant he unzips a duffel bag that the relationship had issues before he decided that investigation was necessary? Is the big issue here that he didn't go, "Hey, toots... you bobbing on any other cock than mine? It's okay... you can tell me." I think the issue is all her. She wasn't happy with [whatever, lame excuse] and decided to go get a little sumfin'-sumfin'.

How can both sides of this relationship be the bad guy? One for cheating and one for not being suspicious enough early enough or... uh... huh?

I figure you're suggesting that he should have sat down with her and talked to her about his concerns like some kind of Dr. Phil special. It has been my experience that those activities either ruin a relationship where nothing is wrong ("You don't trust me!") or only allow the person who's doing-the-naughty to lie ("You don't trust me?"). I'm suggesting that shit doesn't go down like that in the real world. Real world relationship issues as described in this thread happen based on coincidences, accidents, Freudian slips and Columbo-like hunches. The girlfriend that discovers you're still fapping it to SuicideGirls.com based on your browser history, the husband that discovers his wife is still smoking Cowboy Killers by finding a cellophane in her jeans pocket while doing the laundry. Evidence-based. In this case it was sneaky behavior plus shaved cock-socket that lead to the panties with what was likely semen stains. Change the variables all you want, the axioms themselves never change.

...

Ugh, sorry... I realize how poorly written this stuff is... I hope it makes some sense.

I've got to agree with Plan9 on this one. Trying to talk it out might work but the other person isn't going to tell you unless they had already planned to come to you or the relationship is already past repair. To me its akin to a policeman searching your car when he has reasonable cause (or whatever that phrase is), eventually the evidence just begins piling up and you either ignore it or start looking around for some answers. I guess one could try asking but I would suspect 99 out of 100 times all you get is a fight or a breakup and the next time she/he does it she/he will just be more careful about it.

Why suddenly would a person who has been nothing but deceitful suddenly do a 180 and tell you everything you want to know because you sat down for a talk?

Blindly trusting somebody and just ignoring obvious signs of infidelity isn't exactly the best thing for a relationship either. I don't know there really isn't an easy answer in these cases...probably best left to the dynamics of the relationship then a solid rule I suppose.

I don't think Manic is saying that you need to go all doctor Phil and talk it out.

I took it to mean that if it ever comes a time in a relationship where you have this overwhelming need to snoop because you suspect something, the relationship is already done. No talking, no asking will help it. And that is because even if the significant other isn't cheating RIGHT NOW, the level of suspicion has gotten to the point where you'll always end up feeling like you are walking on egg shells, like the cheating is imminent if not present.

I don't know if that is what he meant, and I won't speak for him. But to me, I have never seen or heard of a relationship working out after it got to the point where one felt like snooping on the other. I've never heard about any relationship where one partner went "I really suspected infidelity, but dug around and found nothing, so now we're great again." When it gets to that point, the relationship is in all likelihood done. Snooping and finding out might get you closure, but not finding out will not be the end of it. It's not about the rightness or wrongness of snooping around, but about the utility of it.

The overwhelming need, however, is inspired by the right-here-right-now facts of the moment. It isn't something necessarily indicates a problem trend or past issues or whatever. It's more like "Dude! Wait, what's going on?" My issue must be that I don't see this as a violation of privacy or snooping or being paranoid... no, this is following up on facts and evidence. Heh... how obvious do the bloody footprints have to be for someone to follow them?

Now, if you put this issue on a long enough time line and the guy is really unsettled and paranoid? Yeah, the other issue comes into play.

I'm sure Manic will come back around with an opinion, but:
1) I don't recall anyone talking about bad guys
2) your point of view of seems to be rather narrow, as if every relationship that ends up in one partner cheating involves a good-hearted, attentive, loving person who has done everything they can to keep the relationship healthy, and an evil partner who doesn't give a shit. I doubt that is the case most of the time.

Plus, I have witnessed more than several conversations here at TFP where women were lambasted for snooping on their boyfriend's/husband's computers because they thought they were cheating. What were they told? You should talk to him - snooping is bad, that is his private property.
Either the climate has changed very drastically or there is a double standard.

1) Bad guy, as far as defined by this scenario, would be going to play poke-poke outside the relationship. Can't really debate that point a whole lot.

2) Yes. My view is pretty dang narrow because I'm trying to fit it into this one scenario somehow with only half the story... all while not being a cynical prick. No, I don't believe that there is always a "loving partner" and a "cheating evil-doer." I do, however, believe that someone has to be the "bad guy" first through action. That and it isn't really a crime to be an asshole... some assholes are even happily married. Based on my life experience, there is "the occupied and oblivious partner and the cheater" or the "aimless and mediocre partner and the cheater." I've been the dunce in both cases and I'll admit it. Can't blame the landmine if you step on it. I've learned a lot from it. Got outta those situations unscathed and with the benefit of perspective.

...

Climate is different today. Like David Bowie stuttered: ch-ch-changes! I'm not a genius, but I'll learn eventually.

Thank you Dip and MM. This:

and this:

are a large part of the point I've made.

Cromp, I think you're focusing far too much on my individual sentences and missing the larger point. Most of my contributions to this thread have been made while the answer as to whether or not she's been unfaithful was still up in the air.

While refusing to excuse his fucked up behavior and ignore the questionable and downright hypocritical position you operate from when you set out to investigate the possible violation of your trust via the violation of the trust given to you by another, I've never downplayed the OPs right to know if he's been cheated on. I've merely suggested we not pretend as if spontaneous infidelity is some naturally occurring phenomenon and that through this unfortunate revelation, the OP has discovered the source of everything wrong with his relationship.

His panty raiding paranoia isn't a reaction and serves as indicative of a much larger problem. All of the advice here that encourages it is as dumb as it is unhelpful.

The big issue is that their relationship is so astronomically fucked that it came to all of this and nothing - not even proof that she's the most notorious "cock bobbing" cheater changes any of that. Your apparent fixation upon finding her out says more about you than it does this discussion.

You're ridiculous.

that's what I'm trying to get at...being that we have very limited information to go on, framing this as a good guy, bad guy situation is not very constructive

Now, as for the wrongs that can be done in a relationship (and I'm not including obvious offenses such as abuse), cheating is just one of them and not even a particularly significant one. I know very few people whose marriages ended by cheating, but very, very many whose ended because they weren't getting what they needed in other ways from the relationship.

I agree that cheating is wrong and am not trying to say that people who cheat are 'less bad' than any others. Just that, like I said before, there are other ways of betraying a spouse that are just as 'wrong.' Without having a total picture to go by, it's hard to define what is going on in any given relationship.

MixedMedia,

Yeah, given the limited information... I'll just speculate. Conjecture and anecdotes. That's what TFP is largely for, right? Correct me...

Your last post would be a lot more fun if you had decided to include examples. Especially since I have it in my silly little head that fucking someone outside a relationship without permission is a little more than "significant" to most people. The activity is petty, but the related drama is not.

...

ManicSkafe,

I'm ridiculous. And tired of this conversation. It's like juggling wet poodles.

Sounds to me like you've never been in a long-term relationship.

I didn't mean to say that fucking around isn't significant, what I meant was that I've seen many more marriages end because of things like: being cold, emotionally unavailable, disinterest, lack of support, financially irresponsibility, addiction to drugs or alcohol. In fact, I'm sure I've read somewhere that money troubles and detachment are more likely to be fatal to a marriage than sexual infidelity. Momentary drama is far easier to get past than is years of unhappiness.

Long term being more than 2 years? No. I'm a relationship greenhorn, a serial monogamist. I've only done the move-in with a few girls, bought major appliances, I was married and have purchased a house. But no duration worth speaking of... my seemingly endless succession of one or two year long relationships all end due to distance issues or... infidelity. *rimshot* Are you "more qualified" to talk about relationships? Mmmm, I dunno.

Don't particularly think I need to be with someone for a decade to figure out that the aforementioned don't-dos are bad thing, though.

...

I figure these things you list... they aren't mutually exclusive. Sexual infidelity often results from dealing with an emotionally detached partner, etc.

Been wondering about Spiker. Hadn't updated in days...

Could be years. Good thing we're here to kick this dead horse into the next decade.

I don't think the opinions have changed because of the genders involved. There are the same extremes ranging from "they made me snoop\I'm a victim" to "talking solves everything, and people always tell the truth and know what they want", and the actual life answers in between.

Why do you think this is different?

This thread truly disturbs me. I was recently cheated on by someone I loved and it is ABSOLUTELY tearing me apart. Reading this thread is like watching a crime scene.. can't look away no matter how unsettling. I really don't understand how someone could do something like this to someone they supposedly love. I would like to hear what the "new" evidence was and what made her confess, etc. It's your life so obviously keep it private if you wish although you've already shared this much, but in any case I wish you good luck in the future.

Hey, what have we got until SwingGirl/WarMoney report on their quest??? :D

Well, I can start doing anon posts of some of my paper journal entries from 1997...