Could Really Use Some Opinions Please....
 

Hey Everyone;

I have a strong suspicion that may wife may have been unfaithful. I'll lay out the situation and could really use some thoughts.

She went up to visit a long time, 30 year long girlfriend this past weekend, this same GF was down at our place with he husband two weeks ago. My wife and I got into a pretty good fight that weekend and it made things a bit awkward to say the least. That fight led us to the point of contemplating separation but cooler heads prevailed and a week later she said she didn't want to leave. that weekend they were here they drank a bunch of wine and got pretty looped.

So she decided to go visit this GF this past weekend. My suspicion is that there was a threesome had and I get that feeling due to;

-Saturday morning she shaved her private areas which had not been done in a while. I was home from the gym before she left and noticed she got dressed by putting her panties on with her housecoat still on, she did not get totally naked like she normally does. I get the feeling she was trying to conceal? Last night in bed I felt her and commented surprisingly that she had shaved, she replied yes so in case she wanted to jump my bones when she got home. She then offered up a quickie even though she was a complete wreck due to a hangover.

-I checked the bag she left with this morning and found she had taken some black lingerie bottoms, a thong and another type. She wore a black bra when she left. She had also packed a matching bra/thong. The black pair of lacy panties had very obviously been worn, there was a significant amount of female "juice" on the panties, she had obviously been pretty wet? Why would she pack so much "lingerie" for one night? If she wore a pair of panties up and another pair home, why and when did she wear these black ones?

-while she is normally very conservative sexually, she has a had threesomes twice in the past, once with me. Lately due to relationship trouble our sex life has been very routine and although she has never said anything I've noticed it. Her two threesomes were years apart and with a good friend of hers. she was drunk both times. Is it possible that she could go there with a life long friend?

I sent her a message this morning telling her I had a weird feeling and she of course has asked why and what she did to make me feel that way. I said just leave it it was just my head spinning from our recent issues.

Am I totally paranoid or do you think I'm on to something? how do I proceed from here? I cant confront her about going through her bag but I just knew something was not right and there are these panties heavily soiled.

Could this have been some planned thing?

WTF do I do with this? Given that we were so close to losing our relationship I dont know how to tread?

Thanks!

I don't think you're paranoid. Her behavior is definitely suspect, boss. Something slinky is afoot here.

It's been my experience that women don't shave their crotches and don thongs for movie night with the girls.

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Just to clarify, are you worried about the threesomes or just infidelity in general?

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The Borg-like masses of the TFP always stress the "communication" thing. It's a good idea.

You have legitimate concerns based on evidence here. You should tell her what you've told us.

Being the cynical bastard that I am, I would make sure I've fortified my position before I make any accusations.

I'm with Plan9. Something is definitely off color here.

She can quickly turn this argument around by stating something along the lines of "How dare you go through my things!?" so I'd have my base covered there, if possible.

Confront her.

Yep. Gotta concur. Confront her. You've got some damn solid circumstantial evidence, and a strong gut feeling, which has to count for something. There will be no resolution until you confront her, and you sure won't feel any better until you do.

I'm a sneaky bastard so my mind automatically goes for the path of least resistance. Confront her friend and husband instead. Tell them you heard about the good time they had when your wife was visiting and you were wondering they would mind if you came with next time. Gauge their response as they won't be expecting you to ask them about it, in a cheating situation they expect the husband to go to the wife about it, then the wife warns the other party to play it cool. In this case you have your bases covered as you can always feign ignorance and say you were talking about what a good time they had hanging out, watching movies, etc and that you'd love to join in on the good times too.

Worst case scenario they feel really awkward and lie, tip off your wife that you might suspect something and then either get a confession out of her or she continues lying, whereas you leave her cheating ass on the curb and feeling righteous doing so. Best case scenario you get them to slip up, confront your wife and rub her nose in the shit, leave her cheating ass on the curb and feel righteous doing so.

I like evilmatt.

Hell, that sounds like a Michael Douglas movie.

Of course, taking evilmatt's idea a step further, call the friend, tell them that your wife admitted the threesome, and tell them that you would love to invite them down to return the favour.

People who know there's a secret will group together to keep each others secrets. Once someone thinks the secret's out, they're relived to find that it's all over so they confess.

Failing that, also you can tell your wife that you've spoken to her friend who let it slip that she's had sex whilst up there, and you want to clear the air be her explaining exactly what she did in order to get through it.

If going for divorce, how much does the guy need to document this situation so as to prevent a (more) negative outcome?

If he just does the "let's talk, honey" thing and she decides to get all Legal Fu on him... he may have lost his first strike advantage.

Not a good idea, considering he doesn't actually know any sex took place. Could be a very quick way to make himself look like an ass.

Just hire a PI to get some pictures of the deed, that way when the divorce happens you'll have ammo to show she's the one screwing around on you. If the PI can't get any dirt, then it probably isn't happening so you won't have to worry about a divorce.

I don't think your evidence is quite as solid. If you didn’t know your wife had been in threesomes before, would it all seem as clear to you? Why couldn’t she have shaved because she felt like it? Is that really so hard to believe?

What about black lingerie means she's cheating? I wear black most days. Is she always in white lingerie and now suddenly it’s black? That would seem more of a weird thing I suppose.

Soiled panties...err how weird would it be to know your partner had gone through your bag and drawn conclusions from your dirty undies? Yeah, I’d find more evidence first.
She offered you a quickie even though she was tired...well, tired doesn’t mean not horny. I suppose if it’s blatantly obvious that she is doing sexy things but it’s totally not directed at you, then maybe I’d wonder. But you still need to be sure before you confront her and end up making an ass of yourself, and ruining what you have salvaged of your relationship together.

I think you should try to have sex with her friend.

If you have the panties, you could always go CSI on them.

You could use a UV lamp and look for the characteristic fluorescence of semen. Given the right (relatively simple) reagents you could even test for semen. In fact, if you keep them before they're washed, you could spend a couple of hundred dollars and have a DNA test done on them to find out who donated the semen.

All of these are TECHNICALLY possible, but not necessarily sensible.

The best option is to talk to your wife and explain that you are tearing yourself apart with worry over all these pieces.

If she wants to fix things, she may explain, and if she wants to end it all, she'll tell you to go to hell and pack a bag (I expect).

Yeah, the reason I suggested the sneaky route that I did is because you don't want to tip your hand too much. Anyone can go all berzerker and start flinging accusations but in the event of cheating without evidence, you need to be much craftier. So intimate, insinuate. Covert, not overt , you know?

And no, do not go sleep with her friend. This isn't high school, if he did something like that his wife could nail his balls to a 2x4 in court when her friend testifies that she did in fact sleep with him while conveniently leaving out that she had also slept with the wife. Just play your cards close to your chest, get a confession out of the friend, husband or wife and move on with your life. I think it's goes without saying if you suspect your spouse is cheating on you, and I mean really cheating not just some emotional affair, they likely are. People are far more intuitive than they give themselves credit for.

I wouldn't contact her friends. It will get back to her and if you are wrong about your suspicions you'll end up with egg on your face and probably be headed for another fight.

Good luck on this whatever road you choose.

Little Tippler, what raises my doubts is she took a lot of lingerie type panties with her, as in a black thong, black lacy panties and then a colored set of matching bra/thong. For one night?

If she came home Sunday and wanted to get busy with me and had a shower and shaved it would make more sense to me.

Things just are not adding up.

---------- Post added at 04:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:50 PM ----------

I dont know what to do with this.

I think I speak face to face with her, I'm away fr a few days. When I get home I just ask her to be honest and tell me if there has been any infidelity. If she comes clean we deal with it. If she says no I guess I have no choice but to go with the flow for a while and see what comes?

I think that taking some time to calmly reflect on it all, and talk to her later may well be the best option.

You are telling me that you don't have this kit already?

InSite Semen Detection Kit ::: Is She Cheating?
TruTest infidelity kits and DNA semen testing catch cheating wife,husband,partner.

I guess you do have to make sure it isn't your sperm that it's detecting however.

The best approach, especially given you are having relationship issues, is to talk to her about it. Talk to her about your concerns. Confront her but don't be confrontational. Playing games by asking her friends or trying to entrap her is just childish and will exacerbate any trust issues you have with her buy giving her reasons to not trust you (i.e. escalation of the situation).

Speak to her.

Just curious, would you be OK with the threesome if it were a foursome? If the answer is yes, you might offer her that option. Just a thought.

That could also be a covert way of having her admit to the threesome if you went about it in the right way.

Not to state the obvious but the OP said he emailed her saying he was feeling off, the wife asked what she did that could possibly cause him to feel that way. If confronting her with no real evidence would work, it would've elicited some sort of response from her when he said what he did. Instead she's playing games and, as they say, game on. Talk to the friend and husband first, get them to slip up and then you confront her.

Game on will just lead to further confusion and hurt feelings.

Emailing her is being a pussy about it. He needs to sit her down and have a face-to-face conversation about the fact that he suspects her of cheating and the reasons he feels this way. When I say don't be confrontational, I mean don't be a dick about it. Be genuine. Tell her that you have these suspicions and are not happy about it. Get her to help you clear the issue or come clean about the affair. Regardless of the answer, if you still can't trust her nothing she says is going to fix this and you will need to consider moving on without her.

Be direct but don't be a dick.

I know everyone lies, but why not ask questions? That way he isn't accusing his wife of anything. She may feel horribly guilty about it and want to confess but is afraid of his reaction. His asking may break open the flood gates and they get to the root of whatever it is that is obviously brewing between them.

Perhaps I'm just naive...

Once he reveals his position, she can navigate around it if she so chooses. It is better to figure out how deep the crap goes before wading into it, dude.

For sure. But wouldn't asking questions be one way of doing that? Not the only way of course... but at least get her side of it?


Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending her. I personally believe that at the end of the day no one gives a toss about anyone but themselves. As such they will do whatever it takes to screw you over so they will come out on top.

Plan9 is right.

Also, and this is from personal experience, if she did in fact cheat on her husband with another couple then she very, VERY likely feels no remorse at present time. Maybe down the road but definitely not now. All she will do when confronted with a patchwork of half-evidence is get indignant, clam up and things will be way uglier as she'll throw out accusations like, "we're married, why would you ever think I was capable of such a horrible thing" and "oh how awful a person I must be in your eyes" and lord knows lots of other things meant to guilt-trip him into a false sense of mistaken circumstances. I mean really, how could he ever think she could cheat on him. How horrible a person he must be to think she's even capable of that!

Bullshit. If he plays it cool, does the smart thing and compiles a lot more proof that she's cheating then when he confronts her and she gets the aforementioned indignant, up-clammy and ugly he can say, "look, I know you did it. i have all the proof I need. now go away." She can't try and make him feel like shit for accusing her of something she now knows they both know about. Just can't happen. She can call him all the names in the world, none of which can stand up to the most important one in that situation: lecherous cheater.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree.

You are approaching this with the mind that she is guilty. I am not.

The issue isn't whether or not she cheated. The real issue is whether or not he can trust her at all. If he can't trust her, he needs to decide for himself if this is a relationship he wants to be in.

I just figure it's better to approach a dark room ready to defend yourself than just waltzing on in and getting clocked from behind. Infidelity is way likely.

I've been clocked from behind by a few partners. I've been clocked straight in the face. Neither feels good. So now I'm all about the Martin-Baker routine.

Utter bullhonky, dude. The issue here is totally about if she cheated or not. Trust is related to actions; it's not some amorphous concept off by itself. Trust is like a NASA o-ring testing log... they either get tested every day or you've missed one. If you missed one, it's a big deal. I don't get how you're separating the two. Please explain. I figure if she didn't cheat, he can trust her. If she did cheat, he can't trust her. This isn't Minority Report; we can't see the future. We have to go on what has been done and what has not been done. My next significant other might be a gigundo cheating 'ho-bag at heart, but I'll trust her 100% until she does something and I find out about it. That's the only way to get any sleep at night. I assume fidelity until proven otherwise but I have a "business continuity plan" in place for if/when said event occurs so I don't end up crippled by some surprise blow.

It seems all the focus is getting her to admit her betrayal or catch her in a lie but let's not forget that whether she's cheated or not, your relationship is still seriously fucked up. There's an obvious lack of trust, respect and a whole host of other things that'll need to be mended before you can consider what you two to have to be a relationship - let alone a marriage.

I can empathize with how you feel but I hope to hell you've given at least some thought to the impending shitstorm coming your way whether she confirms or denies your suspicions.

Oh, no doubt. But is there such a creature as "a slight degree of infidelity," Skafe? I'm curious. President Clinton Infidelity Light?

And based on the OP, I believe that his suspicions are incident-based... he doesn't yet strike me as a paranoid, controlling douchebag.

I am seeing like Skafe.

His relationship is already fucked up. Assume for the moment that she is innocent and he approaches with these accusations or worse, proceeds to poke around asking questions of her friends. Now he not only has to deal with the fact that his inner voice doesn't trust her but the fact that she now believes he doesn't trust her. He has effectively broken her trust.

If she is guilty, he needs to decide if he wants to continue the relationship.


From his opening post, he has already pretty much assumed she is guilty and he just wants to prove it. My ultimate answer is, Why bother? He doesn't trust her. She's guilty in his mind and he's just looking for proof. Why wait? The trust is already gone and he is just looking for something more substantial to throw in her face.

Make the decision now to move on, or... have a talk with her. Start from the idea that he doesn't trust her and see where it goes. There might be a way to salvage it from that starting point. But most of it is going to be on him rebuilding his trust of her.

Only if in the process of preparing for a surprise threesome she couldn't quite help herself after accidentally spilling cake batter on the busty co-worker she brought home for you. I'd be happy to forgive such a transgression so long as there's more than enough pie left for me.

I also believe the OP as it seems he has legitimate cause for concern. However, I'd like to think he's give at least some thought to what happens after he's cracked the case.

Also: Where the hell are all these surprise MFF threesomes and why I am usually alone on a Saturday night with a can of tuna and a West law textbook?

Lucky fuckers.

Big surprise, I agree with Charlatan. All of the 'well-laid plans' for 'finding her out' without actually confronting her sound a little too slick. I've been on the planet long enough to know that those sorts of plans usually end up in one place - backfire!

There is no substitute for meeting confrontation in a relationship head on. What if she did nothing and then sees that you took such a circuitous, sneaky route to finding out? There is more to betrayal, after all, than fucking around. Even if she did have sex, then the matter will resolve itself either way...without involving other people unnecessarily.

Keep it simple.

I think he needs to bother, so that he knows what the real problem is. Is the problem that he unrealistically doesn't trust her, or is the problem that he realistically doesn't trust her. Both are fixable, one way or another. If she's not cheating then he needs to work on his paranoia, otherwise he needs to decide if one of them needs to hit the road.

Confronting her is probably the only way he will figure this out. If he does it right and doesn't alienate her, ( if she's innocent ), then she can help him and they can still have a good relationship. Maybe even a stronger one.

I've mistrusted people in the past only to learn I was wrong. Once I figured out I was wrong, by asking or even snooping, then I was able to work towards a solution in the proper context.

I think the problem with just asking at this point might be that he kind of already has, so he might need to gather more "proof" to revisit the question. I wouldn't sit on it too long, however.

This shit is always confusing, no?

It is very confusing. I just don't know what to do. What bothers me the most is that if this did happen, she went prepared, it was planned. If it just happened from too much alcohol I could make better sense of it.

I did approach her by Blackberry yesterday morning as she had flipped me a message. She apologized that I feel the way I do and asked me what has caused it?

I'm beginning to think I should just leave well enough alone for now. She now knows that I have a strong hunch something happened. If she ever goes to visit that friend again, I will insist that I go along for the weekend with her.

She's never going to admit it if I try to discuss it. She wanted to keep this relationship and has otherwise been very affectionate and "normal". Maybe I'm best to just let it lay for now and work on building the relationship back up and kind of follow her lead?

Other than the fact that they may have restraint enough not to throw each other down and get to business right in front of you, tagging along the next time won't really prove anything. Certainly not anything about this particular case in which you suspect that you trust may have been violated.

And just as I've written previously, the violation of your trust is only a part of the extent to which your relationship is fucked. You don't trust her and whether she knows it or not, she has every reason not to trust you.

You two shouldn't have to live like that.

You asked for opinions, so here you go: communication by text/email is NOT the same as face-to-face communication. You should not be discussing your feelings via these media--you should be talking about them in person. Email and text do not carry the same amount of information as face-to-face communication. Speaking about this in person is in your favor; you will gather more information from a conversation where you can watch her respond. Nonverbal cues are a huge part of interpersonal communication.

It sounds like you need a lot of work on the communication front in general. You should look for information on how to improve the communication climate in your relationship and how to effectively manage conflict. Based on what you've said, it sounds as if you have a negative communication climate in your relationship and use ineffective conflict management strategies.

Why? What is this... mutually-assured destruction logic?