If you are into your religion, is it a sin to masturbate?
 

I have asked myself that forever (well, since i know and practiced masturbation). Anyways, do you from your religious background or tendency (if any) feel like if your God is seeing you as a siner for masturbating, or is it normal == part of human pleasure or just a normal thing for us in this world? In conclusion, i am catholic and sometimes when i hear what the priest says about sins, i ask myself that every time :confused: . Let me know if i need to like just leave it as is and not feel guilty about masturbating when i don't have my g/f with me (meaning you know...). Thanks.

why do you care? from what i got from your post your already banging your girl friend. isn't sex before mariage a sin anyway? isn't 1 sin enough to dam you to hell so who cares if you do more?

i know nothing about religion expect what i hear and what i'v seen on tv. :D

If your religion says that it is wrong, and you disagree, then it's time to abandon that religion.

Otherwise, if you truly believe, then you should do your best to follow the teachings of your religion.

i'm catholic too, and yes, technically it is a sin...but that never stopped me. The reason its considered a sin is because you're doing the gift of sex without your partner. I have confessed it a few times (it was tough but the priest was impressed as not too many guys confess that to a priest). I've also had premarital sex with my fiancee (i'll confess that in a few years when it doesn't matter). If you're really serious about the sin thing, go confess it. If you're really REALLY serious about being catholic, be sorry for it, confess it, and try not to do it again. Or you could try taking the route i'm taking...do it now, confess it later when my wife can do it for me (cheap?...yes). I really wouldn't worry about it though, cause i garunfriggintee that the only man in history that never masturbated was Jesus.

It's considered a sin because usually guys can't get off without fantasizing about women other than their partner. Basically, if you're jacking off to porn, it's a sin. My advice is just to stick with your girlfriend, but encourage her to fool around a bit more often, if you're feeling the need to get off more often than you currently do with her.

I have yet to find a reference about masturbation being a sin in the bible.

Thanks for the replies guys. i really enjoy reading the advice i get from here. As for the catholic opinion, i know, i have tried and i went back to it, but i have never confessed it. I will do so this weekend. I hate to think of it this way. I have done some many things wrong in my life, that i don't even know if i would get accepted to heaven as Catholic religion says.

I wish i could write one of the stories i wrote here, and explain it a little better, but it would take too long to read for you guys. i really need advice with a particular problem.

Now, i have a question for you all: Do you ever experience that feeling that you get when you know a person is right for you? I mean, if you saw this one girl, and the second you saw her the first time, you felt to the ground (and it wasn't lust), but you felt like you needed to make a move but never did and now regret it, although you can't find a replacement for that person... that is my problem. There is not one single person who compares to that one. I pray to God that someday the future will bring a happy meeting and get it over with.

Thanks guys. I really think of this place as the one i can truly let my problems out and find a piece of light that i can use in my darkest days.

mirevolver there is a passage in the bible about it being a sin to spill your seed on the ground... maybe someone whose religious can find it for us...

anyways some of my friends justified it by saying "whats a wet dream? its god stroking me off... so if he does it to me i can do it to myself"

if your religion says it wrong then you should think long and hard about your religion.

"there is a passage in the bible"

its the story of onan...but the sin in question is backtalking God. And that's usually a Smite-Worthyâ„¢ offense.... If you really look at the bible verses in context, its clear that jerking off is kosher. Looking at porn, or visualizing women to do so might not be...and certainly premarital relations are verboten, though many Old Testement guys get away scot free with it.

"Who knows what really incurs the Lord's wrath anymore?"
-Dogma

My opinion is this
There's religion
and then there's faith

And your faith can be strong
while not following the literal traditions of your religion.

There are many different levels of spirituality,
and you know on the inside whether you are a good person.

Theoretically masturbation isn't wrong, but as it's been put the act of fantisizing about sleeping with another person is where it comes to place. But remember, God forgives all...

I was raised as a muslim and was taught (or read somewhere) that masturbation is ok, only if you were offered sex by someone other than your wife.
But other people have told me that when you get your jerk on..12 angels watch you or something to that affect, meaning its not ok.
Either way, I can't, I won't and I don't stop.

While there are at least two possible interpretations to this passage, more fundamentalist Christians (including the Catholic church), believe that this passage clearly states masturbation is a sin.

Now, as a former Roman Catholic, I do not believe it is a sin. It is a normal and natural thing to do.

In other words, it is what we choose to do with the action that makes it a sin or not.

The sin of Onan was that he wasted he seed by not procreating... The way I interpret this is that it was written at a time when the Hebrew's population was in decline. The story of Onan was created to encouge young men not to waste their seed but to go forth and multiply.

I just don't see how this applies in this day and age...

That passage is often misinterpreted. The way I see it is it is a sin if you penetrate and then ejaculate after pulling out. It becomes much clearer if you read the passage in its entirety.

Charlatan,

Actually, Onan's sin was worse than that. Since the ancient Hebrews only lived on through their *male* children, (they had no concept of heaven as we think it), Onan's sin was to condemn his dead brother to no "afterlife" or non-existance.

I dunno if any religion would approve of sex before marriage over masturbation.

I'm practice Taoism. Basic and simple. I know Lao-Tzu never mentioned masturbation in the Tao de Ching... so I don't think I'll go to hell for doing it.

I'm approaching seriousness about religon (episcopal) and definitely don't think it's a sin...it's all about interpretation, and you should really concern yourself with the larger matters first (i.e., establish healty faith in the big picture) before you worry about things like this...

(Most) religions teach that God is loving and caring. Would an almighty being condemn you to hell for eternity for masturbating? I doubt it.

You may want to weigh this against other posts as coming from someone who believes in God, but not Hell.

i had a really religious suitemate in college (southern baptist) and every morning, he would masturbate in the bathroom with a tub of vasoline. He didn't hide it, and was very religious. He just felt that it was the best way to relieve his "sexual demons" every morning before starting his day. I found it rather disturbing, but it worked for him. He said that this is preached over the alternative of having sex and raping women.

I am catholic, and never think twice about masturbation. It cures boredom, and relieves stress.

--
rich

I'd have to agree with Charlatan and chavos. When I read that passage and the surrounding verses, I don't see how anyone could twist it into meaning that it is forbidden.

However, nothing the Bible says applies to your case.

Catholicism bears Dogmatic Law. What the Church says goes, so if you are Catholic, what the Bible means to you or anyone outside of the leaders of the Church is pretty irrelevant.

here is the deal on that passage people, from deacon ganon (not!!) Back in the day of the old israelite nation, it was expected that the husband and wife would have a child to carry on the name and to give the inheritance to. When that did not happen, it lead to legal problems. The way that God decided to deal with it was to appoint a "kinsman redeemer". This would be the brother of the deceased husband, and if not the first brother, than the second brother, and so on. The reason God was displeased with this guy was because he defrauded the woman and did not fulfill his responsibility to God and his brother to be the kinsman redeemer. It had less to do with sex and more to do with fulfilling the law that allowed for the woman to own her dead husbands property. God has a special place in his heart for widows and orphans. As for masturbation, it is by grace we are saved, and not thru works, so that no man can boast. So you aren't going to hell for jerking off. Sin is sin, regardless of the variety of sin. We sin, we ask forgiveness. We try to repent and not sin again. If we fall, we ask forgiveness. You don't have to go to a priest to get forgiven by the way. The cool thing about christianity is that you get to talk directly to God. As for fornication, it isn't a good idea because the bible says that the sex act makes you one flesh. Not being married makes it easier to not be together anymore, so pretty soon you might get dumped or be dumped, and the person you are one flesh with is being torn away from you. There really is no such thing as casual sex, it always leaves its mark on you.

From what I remember growing up Catholic, it was almost implied by the priest and or your parents, that it was a sin against God. Of course, all males and a lot of females did it anyway. I've since switched to Lutheran, and I guess I'm not into it like I was before, but I don't think it's bad, and God (for what ever religion you are) will forgive your sins, since sins are a human trait.

Now if you go breaking a commandment, then that's a different story...

What bothers me about using the Bible as a book of rules is that a) interpretation varys widely and b) they were rules that were writting for various cultures (it has been told retold and edited over many, many generations and each time bent to meet the needs of the current generation) that pre-date our culture by millenia.


The rules just don't neccesarily apply.


(of course many of the big ones like many of the 10 commandments make perfect sense but have read of some of the rules the Bible puts forth... like keeping Kosher, etc are just a bit out of whack with the times)

There is no difference between "breaking a commandment" and any other sin. Masturbating could be considered breaking a commandment, because it says not to commit adultery, and Jesus said who ever looks at a woman lustfully has commited adultery with her in his heart. Paul the apostle wrote that whoever broke one of Gods laws was guilty of breaking all of them. Remember, the truth is not what the church teaches, it is what the bible teaches. Jesus himself said that he would send us the holy spirit, that would guide us into all truth. That means that your church can misspeak what is in the bible.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Genesis 38:8-10

Then Juda said to Onan, "Go in to your brother's wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her; raise up offspring for your brother." But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went to his brother's wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. What he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What has always bothered me (yes, I'm agnostic, lowercase a) about the Bible is that what does not have a direct conflict elsewhere in the Bible, is so open to interpretation as to be virtually useless. Case in point. The above quote sounds to me like a matter of coitus interuptus...not masterbation. Did Onan pull out prematurally, or jack off?

well reading it now i see the passage as him pulling out of her...

but back when my parents forced me to go to sunday school the teachers read that to us and said it was about it being a sin to masterbate....

I have always read this to mean coitus interuptus like Bill said, and the sin was that of direct disobedience and the family thing like Ganon said.

re: Adultry - I read a study once, which indicated that in the time period, women were more or less considered property. The sin of adultry was commited when using the property of another man, but in this study did not apply to "un-owned" women.

Here's a link to the page.

http://www.libchrist.com/bible/premaritalsex.html

maybe this is another thread altogether.

PS - I was also interested in, and did some of my own studying, and was unable to convince myself that oral sex is a sin. Some folks believe it is, and I wonder why ?

I think the prevailing idea on things like oral sex being a sin was taken by the way early church under the influence of the gnostics, who believed anything of the flesh was sin, and only the spiritual was of value. So again, oral sex does not lead to procreation, and was thus considered to be sin. But in the book of genesis God observed that adam was lonely and made him a companion, and I believe that sex and love in the marriage relationship is for companionship first, and procreation second. Paul wrote in one of his letters that in marriage, it was wrong for the husband or wife to withhold sex from their partner, because they belonged to each other, and if they didn't fulfill that need for each other, they could cause the mate to wander outside of the relationship and sin, or become bitter and sin.

It has always been my opinion that the intentions and thoughts behind an action matter more than the action itself. If God is all powerful than I would imagine he not only judges us on our actions, but also our mentality and spirituality.

The human body was designed to do certain things. Some people consider it a sin when we use our bodies in ways they were not designed for. I agree with what <b>ganon</b> said.

As a Hindu, as far as I know, and I know an average amount, we may masturbate as much as we want. But in the next life we come back as a sock.

This is exactly why I dont believe in religion - it's SILLY!

So would nocturnal emission during puberty be a sin?

I'm sure God will understand our needs to masturbate :D

im sure he doesn't like us to, because the only real reason he made sperm was to reproduce

Probably, depending on how religious you are.

some people just over-think things....

Depends on your faith 8).

In most Christian traditions, though, the prohibition on masturbation is based around a misreading of the story of Onan, where the specific sin of masturbating in order to avoid impregnating is dead brother's wife (as was the requirement of Jewish law at the time) has been generalised into a prohibition of all masturbation - quite a faulty conclusion.

Of course, as a Catholic, you're bound by the Church's dogma on the matter, so if you want to be an observant Catholic, you're going to have to stop bringing yourself to orgasm.

yyyyeah. I think someone came along to give the "upgrade" on the ol' Old Testament.

If God didn't intend for us to masturbate, he would've made our arms shorter.

I've always taken it as by masturbation, you are wasting what could be life. And I have found that to be utter crap. If you don't masturbate(well ejaculate to avoid argument) and you're a guy, you'll eventually have a wet dream.... which counters the wasting of what could be life. Then there are women. First of, by masturbating, they are not wasting life what so ever, so basically it now sounds like women can masturbate as much as they want, and they'll never ever sin..... weird, what do you think? Oh and to add, that would also mean every month a woman would sin when she has her period... as its another wasted egg. Thus I find nothing wrong with masturbation, as I cannot fathom how one can call it wrong. If it is, then women should do it more, as they would never cast a single sin. (but even if it isn't, they still wouldn't.... hmmmm)

Oh I would like to note. Just because you have an issue with your religion does NOT mean abandon it. Just because one might have an issue in no means gives anyone a reason to say, "Well you just might wanna think about abandoning it" You may have been joking but this IS an advice forum. I don't know a single person who has some sort of issue that they feel out of place with with their religion... and this includes those that DO NOT believe in God...

Religion is simply a place to which one identifies with most. That way instead of having to state all of their views.. they can state the one they follow that resembles them the closest... Basically its one heck of a time saver. That and if it follows your beliefs closely, then going to that church, mass, teachings... etc, would be great, as they believe what you believe.

I mean, say you loved one of the presidence......................... BUT there was one thing that bugged you about it. Well are you gonna think about leaving the country? I mean here's a disagreement, and you live in the country that he looks over..... There's my example to all this.

Later,
----GakFace

The Old Testament is all about law. It's a guide to show us what we should and should not do.
The story of onan is about coitus interruptus, not masterbation.
The sin in masterbation comes from lusting after women you're not married to. If you could achieve orgasm by physical stimulation alone, without thinking about or looking at pictures of women, I don't think there would be a sin there.

Paul wrote in the new testament that we are free from the law, no longer measured according to that "yard stick" so to speak. But he also said that "all things are permissable, yet not all things are profitable for me, and I will be mastered by none of them" He understood that even though, thru grace, he was allowed to do what ever he wanted and still be a christian, it would not be good for him to do what ever he wanted, because these things could end up becoming life controlling issues for him, and for the people he was writing to, and that they would be surrendering the freedom gained for them by Jesus to simply fulfill their drives. The first time I had to be put in a mental hospital, one of the guys in the place had a obsessive compulsive disorder, and he couldn't quit jerking off. I'd say thats a problem. For all christians, catholic or otherwise, their first allegiance has to be to Jesus and the bible, not their church and it's man made rules. What the catholic church believes is dogma, or holy writ, is not neccessarily biblical, and therefore not as relevant as the bible.

ganon, if that much is true, beastiality is suddenly an acceptable practice? There are no mentions of it in the new testament. Yes yes, extreme example.
The problem was, and still is with the Catholic church, that your actions can make you more or less holy, which Paul believed to be utter bullshit.

In Genesis 38:8-10, the proper interpretation by some of the more heavily educated biblical man will tell you that he was withdrawing from her, and therefore disobeying God.

Some translations will read something like:

Then Judah said to Er's brother Onan, "You must marry Tamar, as our law requires of the brother of a man who has died. Her first son from you will be your brother's heir."
But Onan was not willing to have a child who would not be his own heir. So whenever he had intercourse with Tamar, he spilled the semen on the ground to keep her from having a baby who would belong to his brother. But the LORD considered it a wicked thing for Onan to deny a child to his dead brother. So the LORD took Onan's life, too.

This particular passage was taken from New Living Translation (NLT). No, this is not the particular version I normally take text from, but just an example. I'm interested in finding the second reference that the sole 'act' of masturbation is in fact a sin.

What Paul was trying to communicate was that keeping the law was worthless, and that the reason the law was given in the first place was to be the backdrop that revealed to us our sinfulness. He lays it all out in the book of Hebrews (he is purported to be the author, but no true authorship has been identified) He was addressing his letter to the jewish christians that were going back to the law for justification, in insisting that the new converts had to be circumsized. Paul pointed out that in making the converts subject to the law, they were in fact voiding the death and resurrection of Jesus, by saying that it was not enough to truly attone for the sins of man. In romans Paul said that we should not continue to sin that grace may increase, but that we should offer up ourselves as a "living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God" and that the only way we do this act of love for God is by submitting our flesh to his will and purposes. That having been said, yes, you could go nail a critter and still be forgiven, and by no means lose your salvation. It just is not a good idea to do it because it isn't good for you.

I dont belive masterbation is a sin. But it does/can create lust, which is a sin.

..

I read some where that the "sin" of hoping for a mate does not appear in the guide by St. Ignatius...smart Jesuits...!

A bit off topic but you are so awesome because your Avatar is of Alec N, the guy who played Paul Atreides in the Dune miniseries and its sequal miniseries.

Back on topic: Religion considers it a sin. Many things are sins. It is okay to sin, I'm pretty sure it is impossible to live without sinning. Isn't that why Jesus did his thing in the first place? He took the heat for what everyone else does.

Whatever your religion may say, I find that faith is something far to personal to be entirely dictated to you. So regardless of what exactly your religion may or may not say about masturbation, you should rationalize it yourself. It is something entirely natural, and as another said, you'd just have a nocturnal emmision anyway, so it defeats the 'wasting sperm' argument.
I'll also point you to www.jackinworld.com, which had a good essay about dealing with religion and masturbation. I suggest you take a look.

Basically in religion everything which gives you pleasure is a sin.. But to God this may be different, why would he give us a choice as to wether or not to please ourselves if he considered it a sin, why would he give us feelings?...

I'm sure a Jew will be along to give you clip around the ear for your presumption shortly...

On one level, I agree with you entirely, but one should bear in mind that in many faiths, it is not considered acceptable for lay members to make decisions on doctrine and dogma.

To Mel I would say this, that all pleasures are not sins, we are created to enjoy God and his gifts to us, and if it were true that all pleasures were sin, then he would not have blessed the marriage bed the way that he has.
To rodgerd I would say this, there are many different denominations in the protestant side of christianity, and a few variations on catholisism, but our relationship with God is completely unique and personal, and therefore our "doctrine and dogma" is ultimately our responsibility as individuals. When Jesus came and changed our entire world and ability to relate to God, he made it possible for God himself to dwell in us, thru the Holy Spirit. Therefore we no longer need a system of religion to get to God, we no longer have to rely on priests, pastors, and the books of prayers, we have an advocate with God directly thru Jesus, and there is no other mediator needed.

Masturbation is sex with someone you love, so, it is not a sin. What is a sin is to make it an addiction. I´m a catholic too, and when i confessed the "sin", the priest laugh at me and told me it wasn´t a sin if you do it ocassionaly and it does not end up substituting a sexual partener.

You can make your own religion, my dear. One that considers masturbation as a temporary substitute for sex, while you grow up emotionally and mentally and find a partner. You don't harm anybody, you don't limit anybody freedom by masturbating so I can't see what others could complain of. The concept of sin was very likely introduced by somebody in order to have gullible people fell bad about doing something that was considered "illegal" or "evil" by somebody else. But as matter of fact, you don't harm anybody and you don't limit anybody freedom, so where's the whole sin problem ? Scratch it.

I did some research in a little book I have called The X-Rated Bible that lists all the sexual episodes in the old and new testament. It mentions Leviticus 22:4-7 and states:

Because Israel;s superstitious belief in both animism and blood pollution, it naturally followed that they viewed menstruation in a negative and unfavorable light. They also....viewed semen itself as being contaminating...it was bodily fluid that defiled everything it came in contact with it. In the case of semen the defilement lasted only one day.

It goes on to mention Leviticus 15:16-17 which gives instructions to clean garments that come in contact with semen, implication being nocturnal discharge or masturbation.

So, if the bible includes instructions on cleaning garments, I would guess that emissions by masturbation are acceptable and not forbidden.

Dood I bet Jesus beat his bishop. He was tempted.

Re: If you are into your religion, is it a sin to masturbate?
 

If you are Catholic, then yes, it is a sin to masterbate. It is also a sin to look at pornography of any sort. This is according to a book the Roman Catholic religion has on what is and what is not a sin. In a church education class I had through my church, they addressed issues such as pornography and masterbation. They pulled out this book that stated all of the sins, as the bible and the Pope has stated are sins (this book was HUGE!). Perhaps try asking your church if they have a book like it and seeing what it says. Also according to this book, using a condom is a sin as well. Pope John Paul II said that if if you are going to have sex, then you should face the consequenses, thus outlawing condoms and birth control in the Catholic "law book." It is believed that the word of the Pope is the word of God.

I am Catholic, but I do not believe in all of the things that the Church believes in. I do believe it a sin to look at pornography, and a sin to masterbate, both of which I'm guilty of, or I wouldn't be a TFP member. But I also believe that the seriousness of both of those sins together is less than that of premarital sex. I believe that although all sins are equal in the face of God, they may not be equal in the face of Jesus, Mary the virgin mother of God, or the other saints. I believe that the severity of the sins will affect the punishment (either in this life or in eternal life) for the sin. So I would much rather masterbate than perform premarital sex.

I also heard once that you should not pray to God for forgiveness, for God does not forgive. Rather, pray to Mother Mary, Jesus, and the other Saints; they do forgive. I also heard that you pray to the later and to God both, and that all forgive, which is what I believe.

look at it this way, if God or whoever created us with the urges, why shouldn't it be part of our lives. it does give both men and women pleasure. isn't that what God wants. for everyone to be happy. i bet those people causing all the trouble in the middle east didn't masturbate enough

well i have 2 statements, i think that God wouldnt mind masturbating because we keep reproducing sperm from when we hit puberty until we die, if he didnt approve of it, he would have changed the time that you would produce sperm

my other thing is that i think adultury is when a married man and a woman or a married man and a woman have sexual intercourse, i dont in anyway think that adultury could be linked to masturbation, but i dont read the bible after being taught to. i should though.

I think if your viewing porn on the internet and I guess from you being here yu are like the rest of us, masterbating is the least of your worries if your worried about God and sins. Do you really think any of us are going to hell( if there is such a place) for masterbating? I am no guru on religion but afaik Catholic is the only one that doesn't let priest get married and look what happened with that, do you think for one second that every priest and nun never self gratifies? Faith or no faith its human to have sex and masterbate no belief in the world can stop it and when its tried to be controlled as in the catholics look what the Preists turned too and you know what I am talking about. If it wasn't meant for us to enjoy it would feel so damn good no?

I haven't read every post here, so my apologies if any of this is repetitive:

1. A basic Christian tenet is that Jesus died for our sins, and that God is loving and forgiving. However the Catholic spin on this seems to be one of control through fear of an eternity in hell. These two ideas don't jive, as the Catholics would have you believe that God is vengeful (like in the Old Testament) and not forgiving (like in the New Testament).

2. Every religion (besides Mormonism, Scientology and a few others) is based on "rules" and viewpoints that are thousands of years old. I find it hard to reconcile this with my own life, as so much has changed over the years. Why hasn't God written any more chapters of the bible in the past 2000 years?

3. There are literally hundreds (if not thousands) of things that the bible considers sin. Most of these are laid out in the book of Leviticus (thus, Levitical Law). Christian Fundamentalists tend to pick out the convenient laws to forward their own agenda, while ignoring others. Abortion, masturbation, homosexuality.....what they concentrate on. They ignore the laws about keeping slaves, sacrificing animals, wearing garments of mixed cloth, etc.

..

I wouldn't be surprised if jesus masturbated.

Sure there are. http://www.ulc.org/
Religions on Premarital Sex

For my 2 cents, i believe the following...

1. God wants for us all to be happy, but don't interrupt anyone else's ability to be happy to do it (rape, murder, theft, etc.).

2. I have faith. I have a religion, yes, but more importantly I have faith. I know TONS of people who are *insert ANY religion* and have ZERO faith. What the fuck is the point of that? That's not religion, that's you going to a building and repeating words to the front, the floor, and the ceiling.

3. I don't have to attend church to talk to God, to apologize to God for anything, or do anything else- I can pray or sit and chat any time I want at any place I want- because he's always there.

That's about the best thing i've ever heard a person describe it as.

The best representation of the true rules I've seen yet- if you are Catholic, it's a sin, doesn't matter WHAT the bible says- the people here on earth NOW say it is, and so therefore it IS (according to Catholicism). I'm technically Catholic, but I do not agree with some portions of the church's laws because they go against what I believe are the true intentions of God- for everyone to be happy.

According to the bible, it isn't the act pf "masturbation" that is a sin. The whole "spilling his semen to the ground"-thing isn't what made a certain person mad. It was that he didn't impregnate his brothers wife. I haven't seen anything in the bible that says "Masturbation is evil, stay away from it".

Here's a list with that passage from a lot of different versions of the bible: http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/...nguage=english

Hmm.. I prollly shoulnd't even answer this one, sicne I don't belive in any god or satan. But I still feel that it's wrong for people to go around and feel that masturbation is wrong.

yes

Oh, this was interesting.. I was reading Leviticus and here's a funny thing:

They distinguish between an emission of semen alone (ie masturbation) and one with a woman.

Oh, and just a sidenote.. I cannot find anything in the bible about abortion. Help?

The only thing that sometimes pops into my head and makes me feel kinda weird is; some people I knew (family/relatives, older friends, etc...) are dead... so if they watching over us, what are they thinking while I'm whacking? Thing is, I don't really even know how my mind handles it when it comes into my head, I think I just ignore the thought and carry on, but that simmilar thought comes to me at other times too, "What would <INSERT NAME HERE> think if <HE/SHE> were watching me?", be it sleeping late instead of doing something important, getting outside instead of sitting in front of the computer, speeding in a car, thinking about the sister I don't have, or anything else... it's a tough one.

It is a sin for Catholics - if you looked at a woman with lust you already committed a sin in your heart - or something like that to some effect

See, God knows we're human, he knows we're going to do some things that aren't exactly good for us, but hopefully, after we make those decisions we learn from them. I don't see masturbation as a sin. If it is done too much it can be detrimental to your lifestyle. As Benjamin Franklin proved, it is completely impossible to be completely good 24/7/365. You can wank, just make sure it doesn't get out of control.

Weird how many people say "24/7/365" when technically that isn't really right... it would have to be "24/7/52", but I guess no one really cares... Just thought I'd pop in with my 2 cents...

See, Um I think people are missing something vital here. Unless you believe with all your heart that that there is only one true religion.... the it can't JUST apply to Catholics. And for it to apply to catholics from that standpoint, would then mean catholicism would be the one true faith, as otherwise, simply BEING Catholic would technically be a sin.

Do you see what I"m getting at? Stop saying its ok unless you're catholic, i'm sorry but that not acceptable, with any logic, you should be able to see that. Why would it be ok with one religion relating to God, but completley illegal with another who follows THE SAME GOD. Not possible, sorry, nope, no how.

As for that lust thing? All guys have a dirty mind, and do just about all women I know ;)... so we kinda have those sick thoughts whenever we someone attractive. There is a fine line about the Lust thing, that I belive many of us have mininterpreted.

I have a few things I would like to bring to this party. I was raised a Catholic in a small town, went to Catholic schools all my life. I no longer consider myself Catholic and sex and masturbation are two of the things that took me to this path.

The oft-quoted passage about Onan is relevant (why do you think it's called 'onanism'?) but a more appropriate passage is one of Jesus' parables. The one about the farmer who throws his seed and only the seed that falls on the fertile ground will grow. It was supposed to preach the message of spreading the word of God, and falling upon the ears of the willing. Reading this I realised there was a connection between the number of times we heard that parable in primary school and the lack of discussion about masturbation in the one hour (yes, one hour) of sex-education I had in my 12 years of Catholic education.

A lot of Catholic education is propoganda, I feel. This is not given as a fact but as experience. For the longest time, I felt the most overwhelming feeling of guilt about jacking off. The topic never came up in the schoolyard (I found out years later that it was somewhat common in most normal schools) and the bigget insult was to call someone a 'wanker'. Maybe I just gave away my location with that.

When Monty Python sang, 'every sperm is sacred', they were only half joking. Catholic dogma is indeed Catholic law and you would surely be able to find the writings of a long dead Bishop or Pope on the topic, condeming it. Even if there is nothing offical written, it's the most onspoken rule of Catholics.

Frank McCourt's Angela's Ashes sees the author recounting boyhood sermons in Ireland, home of the Catholic schoolboy, where the priest would stand at the pulpit and intone in his mightiest voice his condemnation of the boys who had drowned the week before as they had died with mortal sins on their souls... As would ALL OF YOU if you did not CONFESS AND LEAD A CLEAN LIFE! This had the same effect as the slightly more subtle approach of my childhood. What was the sin dirtying the hands of more teenage boys than any other? It wasn't likely to be pre-marital sex, that's for sure.

My friend Phet is a born again Pentecostal Christian. He once told me that in his church's eyes, any form of lust equalled adultary. Think about that. Fantasising about the cute girl in your biology class during a sleepy Tuesday afternoon lecture was a one-way ticket to hell for him. THis explains why he got rid of all his porn. Five boxes of CD-Rs, in the trash.

I kind of regret never asking him about jacking off. But only kinda.

a biblical perspective
 

To address this question from a biblical perspective, one must examine what the Bible teaches about sexual immorality. It is generally accepted that where the Bible gives specific instruction, we stand firm, and where the Bible is silent, we should live according to godly principles.

The Bible is clear, sexual immorality is prohibited by God. A survey of scripture reveals numerous instances in which sexually impure people are described. See Gen19:5, Gen19:30-38, Gen34:1-2, Gen35:22, Gen38:9, Gen38:14-18, Num25:6-14, Judg16:1, 1Sam2:22, 2Sam11:4, 2Sam13:14, 2Sam16:22, Hos1-2, John4, John8:1-11, Luke7:36-39, 1Cor5:1 and Rev2:20. The specific issues are homosexuality, incest, rape, adultery, refusal to father a child by the wife of a dead brother, fornication, sex in the tabernacle and in public, and leading others to sexual immorality. Lev18-20 prohibit incest, adultery, fornication, prostitution, homosexuality, bestiality and sexual relations during menstruation. In all these, sexual relations with a partner are involved.

Nowhere does the Bible expressly discuss solitary sexual activity, i.e. masturbation. While in some cases a failure to prohibit may imply tolerance or even permission, such reasoning can lead to serious error. Yet, in light of the Bible’s apparent silence on this topic, what conclusions may be drawn?

The most obvious place to start is Jesus’ teachings about the content of our hearts. In the gospels, he taught that murder begins as anger, stealing begins as greed and adultery begins as lust. Hence, the life we give to our thoughts is morally equivalent to the sinful acts they inspire. However, most Bible scholars agree that the terms "anger", "greed" and "lust", as understood in biblical cultures and times, are not the kinds of passing thoughts all of us have at one time or another. Rather they are obsessive patterns of thinking that are indulged without regard to consequences and reduce others (or their possessions) to objects for base gratification of some fleshly desire, e.g. revenge, coveting or sex.

In lust, sexual desire is indulged until it becomes grotesque and compelling, leading to sexual acts that are clearly immoral. If masturbation involves this kind of thinking, it is sinful and a perversion of God's intent for our sexuality. Hence, masturbation can cause us to fall short of God's standards and bring upon ourselves the natural consequences of disregarding His wisdom.

For example, because sexual climax involves the release of very powerful chemicals in the brain, it is possible to become addicted to these chemicals. The dynamics of such addiction are the same as other forms of addiction, i.e. escalation in dependence, leading to increasing demands for more intense experiences, which can lead to the use of pornography and even promiscuity, both of which are clearly sinful. Furthermore, because addiction soon becomes the most important thing in life, it may be considered a form of idolatry, another sin.

Another example is that for some people masturbation can carry with it profound shame or guilt. While shame or guilt can serve to correct error, excessive shame or guilt can prevent us from accepting God’s love, mercy and grace, hindering our relationship with him.

While the Bible does not expressly address masturbation, it honors sexual purity and speaks to the content of our hearts and the life we give to our thoughts. Accordingly, masturbation should not be dismissed as trivial or irrelevant, but rather understood as a powerful experience that each person must consider in light of scripture, prayer, counsel and conscience.

True story.

I was around 14 or 15. My brother was 13 or 14. I had discovered the joys of masturbation. My brother believed it to be a sin.
Not surprisingly, we got into an argument about it on a friday night at home. Dad and Mom had guests over playing Bridge. I told Dad the gist of the argument...
He said "ya could have picked a better time for this argument. No, it is NOT a sin. Now simmer down you two."

Dad was a Deacon in the Episcopal Church, and studied history and theology.

I'm not religious in the least, but I am a person of faith. Its not a sin to masturbate, period. Please dont quote the old testament, because the new testament gives us a new covenant, one thats written in the heart. My heart tells me its not a sin.

At times, I 'don't sin' on a daily basis. :)

If you will note, I qualified my post with the phrase "biblical perspective". Anyone is free to consider the question from any other perspective they wish. My post is valid only in the context I prescribed.

The whole point with my post was to say that the Bible does not expressly addresss masturbation. Some argue that masturbation is a sin based on certain statements by Paul in Romans, for example. As I recall, and I haven't checked this, the OT concern about spilling one's seed on the ground is about pulling out before ejaculation to avoid conception when its your duty to produce an heir for your brother by impregnating his widow. Clearly, some of the customs from those days no longer apply. As for the new covenant, I'm all for grace and mercy rather than the law and justice. Only God knows for sure if what someone does is a sin, but we can get an idea by how what we do affects our relationship with Him. If what we do hinders our holding Him first and foremost in our lives, then guess what? Whatever it is that is more important than God has become an idol, and that's the problem.

I thought my post was clear enough that each person must come to terms with masturbation for themselves, and the principles I noted can serve as reasonable guides to those who actually care.

Parable

p.s. my dad was an ordained Episcopal priest with a masters in divinity and doctorate in ministry :)

While the post that revived this 4 year old thread was very well written and had some interesting information, to me it seems a little on the verge of prosthelytizing. For someone with the screen-name "Parable", who just joined and with only one post to a forum like TFP and in Sexuality, I can only think "troll". I'm just sayin'.

However, it was a great thread I didn't read in the past, please carry-on.

As a former catholic my only imput is I don't subscribe to any religion and therefore if you want to rub one out, be you female or male, again carry-on.

Ali

Well, Thats great, I'm sure you have been brought up in the finest traditions of the church and I do respect that. On the other hand, I have read the bible cover to cover, twice, so I do have a fundamental understanding of this Book. From my feeble perpspective, I've constructed a rough picture of laws and rituals, which never sustained the people, until their hearts were opened to a new understanding, where the individual has been set free, to do the right thing and sin no more, because thats what his or her heart told them to do, not because of a set of laws or precepts, but because thats the right thing to do. Sorry for the lack of definable sentences, or syntax errors, I just roll with it..........:)

I can tell you, I am in no way under the influence of "god". So my religion would not say that it is a sin to masturbate. Masturbating is a normal thing to do. Everyone does it even if they won't admit it. SO don't worry about it and get your rocks off guilt free lol

the deeper issue
 

My user name is Parable because I like the idea of a parable, i.e. as a story that relates a truth more profound than the story per se suggest superficially. I view my own life as such a story.

As for any agenda I may have, on a forum such as this it is to speak the truth in love with gentleness and respect. I am Christian, but my purpose here is not to convert anyone to anything. That is between each person and their creator. My hope is that people will know me by how my actions match my words.

If I may, I'd like to respond to a statement by alicat. I'm not attempting to prosethelytize, just articulate my understanding of theology.

The truth of the good news is simple, as alicat said "hearts were opened to a new understanding", where people have been "set free" to "sin no more". But, its not because that's what their hearts told them to do, or that the law told them, but rather because they were given the righteousness of Christ when they accepted what He did on their behalf, in full completion of the law's requirements. He did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it and more. By this I mean, while the greatest commandments were "to love God" and "to love others as yourself", Jesus went one further when He issued the New Commandment, "to love each other as I have loved you".

How does this relate to masturbation? Its kinda hard to fantasize about someone if you are loving them as God does. So, if masturbation does not involve lust for another person, the bible says nothing about solitary sex. That is, there is nothing inherently sinful about inducing yourself to orgasm so long as you're not USING another person in a selfish way in your mind or heart when you do it.

The deeper issue is dehumanization of others. This is unhealthy because those who would use others for selfish reasons must distinguish themselves from the rest of humanity in order to justify taking advantage of them. That is, if you're a guy and you fantasize about a woman, your sort of ignore the fact she is someone's daughter, sister, mother or wife. And if you would not wish for your sister, daughter, mother or wife to be used like this by someone else, then perhaps that should inform your own conduct.

Huh.....Hello.....Fantasizing while masturbating always involves lust for another person....at least that's been my personal experience while masturbating....its not like I think about God and masturbate. I think about a beautiful, hot, sexy woman, with her legs spread wide open, and my tongue delving oh so deep between those hot moist lips, till I find that button of love to tease and please till she just cant take it anymore..........:eek:

I believe the most prevalent historical figure that condemned self-indulgence, at least in my experience, was St. Thomas Aquinas (13th Century). To paraphrase a quote taught by Aquinas, he stated that 'masturbation is even a more heinous sin than consumation with one's own mother, for at least the spilling of the seed will result in a spawn from such a reprehensible act'.

from Masturbation Throughout History:
Though it is not only Judaism, Muslim, or Christian teachings that seek to condemn the behavior.

In response to DaveMatrix's comment that fantasizing about another person always lust....

1. If the person you are fantasizing about is your spouse, and what you are thinking of is something they would condone, but for some reason you can't be with them, it is debatable if this is lust.

2. Phone sex with you spouse, similar to above.

3. If one considers eating and drinking, eating is not gluttony and having a glass of wine is not drunkenness. That is, a legitimate use is not cancelled by an abuse. It may follow that masturbation is not necessarily sinful, e.g. if lust is not present, or if one imagines having loving sexual relations with one’s spouse.

4. In light of those possibilities, without condoning nor condemning masturbation, Dr. Doug Weiss, in his book “Sex, Men and God: A Godly Man’s Roadmap to Sexual Success”, describes two mental postures possible in masturbation. In the first mental posture, others are objectified and used for base gratification. This is clearly sinful and leads to unhealthy patterns of behavior. So much of our culture emphasizes this posture that it is hard for us to imagine any other. Indeed, some suggest it is not possible to avoid inappropriate thoughts, implying masturbation cannot be without sin.

In contrast to this, in the second mental posture suggested by Dr. Weiss, improper thoughts involving others are not entertained, and the experience, while sensual, is truly solitary. Dr. Weiss suggests that masturbation from this second posture does not carry the problems inherent in the first. That is, in itself, the sexual pleasure associated with self-stimulation is not necessarily sinful, so long as inappropriate thoughts are not indulged.

As the Y, its my favorite restaurant :)

So all you guys just hold it in & cum in your sleep.

Who's truth, yours, the Catholic church?

"The truth of the good news is simple, as alicat said "hearts were opened to a new understanding", where people have been "set free" to "sin no more"."

I'm sure that is a mistake, I said no such thing.


Ali

What is truth? My apologies.
 

The truth as I understand it, that's all. I merely mean to say that my hope is to be honest and call it like I see it, yet remain respectful of other people and what they believe. Indeed, I wish some in my church would do this, as I am often misunderstood. I can understand this, for I have had to reconcile my life as a research scientist with my faith; not something a lot of people can relate to I guess.

And I see now that in my rush to get to work, I attributed to you what I should have attributed to DaveMatrix. Sorry about that. Forgive me?

Parable

Parable, please don't apologize for stating your opinion. You are allowed to voice an opinion, without worry of an overwhelming reprisal. If I have offended you in some way, I apologize. We are adults here and involved in sometimes heated debates, but I never meant to be offensive, just straightforward.

I should have read it clearer.
:thumbsup: for your dad.

Parable, to be honest and call it like you see it, while still being respectful of the other members is exactly what the TFP is about. It was a completely honest mistake that you miss-attributed a quote.

I offer my apologies for jumping to conclusions and assuming you were trolling, I would also like to welcome you to a truly awesome and rather unique place that exists on the internet.

I am now very curious how a religious research scientist manage's the conflict of science/faith and creationism/evolution. Care to divulge? Again, welcome.

Ali

faith/science, creation/evolution, evil
 

DaveMatrix, I was apologizing for misquoting Alicat when I should have cited you as the source for the rather good summary of what the gospel means. And no, you have not offended me at all.

Alicat, I accept your apology about trolling, and am happy to show you wrong about me in that respect. As for the so called conflict between science and faith, or evolution and creation, I have reconciled those by recognizing there is no conflict.

The conflict between science and faith is not a conflict between science per se and faith per se but rather between a mystical worldview and a philosophy that has been derived from the constraint of science known as methodological naturalism. That is, the rule of science is that it cannot go outside itself for its justification or to explain its observations. However, properly understood, that methodology applies only to scientific inquiry. To adopt it as one's worldview is as much a statement of faith as adopting the biblical worldview or any other. The conflict is between a worldview that insists there can be nothing more than can be reasonably infered from inductive or deductive rationality and a worldview that is open to things larger than what can be proven by logic, reason or experiment. This does not make the latter irrational, but rather it includes our ways of understanding things other than just the intellect. Intuition, insight, imagination, consciousness, faith.

As for creation/evolution, there is no conflict here either. If you subscribe to the biblical view, and you read it carefully, it clearly states that creation was over before the fall from the garden of eden, the fall which included the curse of this world being such a difficult place. Since that time, nothing new has been created, in the biblical sense. Rather, and I take this idea from Dr. Ken Milller's book, Finding Darwin's God, what we see happening is change in what was created. There is no denying that evolution is the foundation of modern biology, just as relativity and quantum mechanics are the foundations of physics and atomic theory is the foundation of chemistry and number theory the foundation of math. It is incorrect to say that evolution has created anything, for creation was over a long time ago. If the world looks old, or if life appears to change over time, that has no relevance to how the world was created or what the world was like before the fall. Miller says, what better way to curse the world than to make it a fight for survival every day, having to constantly adapt and struggle. Miller suggests evolution is just the operational principle of the curse.

As for planetary geology, another good book is the Genesis Question, by Dr. Hugh Ross, who has been able to reconcile the order of creation as recorded in genesis and what scientists believe about planetary formation. The key is to adopt the proper initial conditions and reference point for the narrator of Genesis. Rather than assume the narrator is speaking from before time and from a cosmic perspective, Ross argues the order of events can be understood differently by having the narrator on earth some time after the planet was formed. You'll have to read it for yourself because I can't do justice to his excellent treatment.

Finally, and perhaps this is the most important question, how do we solve the problem of evil? I refer you to Dr. Gregory Boyd's book "Satan and the problem of evil". He has resolved the problem of evil to my satisfaction. Here's the gist of his argument:

Evil is a necessary possibility in a world in which the following realities make love possible:

1. Love entails freedom. Freedom to choose otherwise is what gives meaning to choosing love.

2. Freedom entails risk. The risk is that someone may actually choose not to love.

3. Risk entails moral responsibility. People are responsible for their choices because of the consequences they bring. Choices other than love often lead to evil.

4. Moral responsibility is proportionate to the power to influence others. If you are powerful, you have more responsibility than someone who is inconsequential. In Christian theology, Satan was the most powerful agent, so he carries the most responsibility for rebelling against God.

5. The power to influence is irrevocable. God's gifts are genuine, not taken back if abused.

6. The power to influence is finite. God has established boundaries within which we operate, so the consequences of our poor decisions are not infinitely bad for everyone everywhere.

Thus, if you experience evil, it is because someone, including possibly yourself, chose to follow something other than God, and that choice was close enough to you that the consequences were within your sphere of influence.

The bottom line for me is, I have reached a place where the questions you mentioned are no longer important. Instead, I am now free to focus on what's important in life and faith, not these petty divisive distractions.

I don't mean to dismiss them as unimportant, for I struggled with them for years. However, I recognize something larger in science, that it is a means to understand creation and thereby gain insight into the mind of the Creator.

Parable, I agree with you about the fact that masturbation is, indeed, a sin... if you really are adhering to Christian dogma, it is hard to avoid this fact. If one is thinking lustful thoughts about someone other than one's own wife/husband, then one is indeed sinning. There are no two ways around that.

I started a thread about this in TFP a while back, asking Christians how they managed to make it "okay" to look at porn and lust freely about other women/men while still calling themselves observant Christians. The answers weren't terribly convincing, but it's interesting how people compartmentalize the issue. In other words, the answer went, "Okay, I'm not a perfect Christian, but God loves me anyway." So if Christ died for my sins, and I have accepted Christ as my savior, then I can sin (and some people do try to avoid it, but often give in) with the knowledge that I'm still going to heaven. That's how it works in their minds, I suppose.

For me, however, the realization that there were no two ways around this fact was one of the reasons that caused me to walk away from the church, and possibly the faith itself. It made no sense to me, on a variety of different levels, but mostly as a human being. First I stopped believing in hell, then heaven, then sin itself. Or rather, to me, "sin" became that which we do to hurt each other and ourselves. But to me, there are no eternal consequences for those injuries; only in our present lives, which is punishment enough. Karma, you might say.

Lusting occasionally after someone other than one's parter, however, has never occurred to me as being anything other than normal... and that is one of the many reasons I cannot continue calling myself any kind of Christian. It would give a very bad name to those who try *very* hard to avoid lustful thoughts and remain pure in heart, and who do truly avoid all kinds of sexual debauchery. I actually know people like that. They would, in fact, avoid this place like the plague.

Gibran rocks!
 

Abaya,

Not much time now (before heading to church, actually, then to the lab to pull a sample), but I just wanted to thank you for sharing your thoughts. I hope to respond in more detail to some of the things you said, because I can relate. Your experience is shared by many.

Funny how a topic like masturbation brings out so many things to think about. Its the same in science, topics that fall between those compartments you mentioned seem to test us in ways that the little boxes don't. They're so comfortable because we think we've determined them fully and no longer have to question what to do with them. The ones that fall between the cracks challenge our basic ideas the most. Like viruses, for example. They're not living organisms, yet they have very complex life-like structures and can co-opt living cells to reproduce. And it is a virus, HIV, that is killing us like never before because it has somehow become able to co-opt the very mechanisms we need to fight viral infection. Some ideas are like that, as well as some provisions of the tax code!

Parable

"I found the secret of the sea in meditation upon the dew drop." - Gibran

p.s. Gibran is one of my favorite poets.

Well, most Christian-based religions say that 'yes,' it is a sin. Besides that, if you are a believer, then you would be conscious of the "fact" (a "fact," if you believe in it), that those up in heaven can see everything you do. So, there's also the embarassment factor...:suave:

This is the steepest and most slippery slope I have ever seen. And idolatry can lead to replacing God with a false idol... oh. my. GOD... I'm going to start worshiping sperm?!

This is just one example, but for a person who proudly proclaims that he named himself after the ideal of "a story that relates a truth more profound than the story per se suggest superficially" you do A LOT of looking at bible verse and interpreting it literally.

That's a pretty glaring contradiction.

$0.02... Masturbation is not a sin, and won't lead you to being a prostitute or the antichrist.

Who said it would lead to becoming a prostitute or the antichrist? :confused:

some clarifications
 

Analog,

You said "...idolatry can lead to replacing God with a false idol..."

Idolatry IS the replacing of God with a false idol, and an idol is anything you worship, and worship can mean many things, but in its most basic meaning, its where you put your time, energy and devotion. Addictions qualify.

You said that I "proudly" proclaim my username; sorry if I came across that way to you. Text is inherently limited in conveying the state of one's heart, so I ask the favor of giving me the benefit of the doubt.

As for how I interpret scripture being a "glaring contradiction", none of the verses I cited were parables so that particular hermaneutic approach is not really fitting for these verses. Some scripture is best understood literally, some poetically, some allegorically, etc. However, if you have another way to understand any of the verses I cited, other than the "literal" reading, please feel free to share your insights.

As for your conclusion that masturbation is not a sin, I don't necessarily disagree with you, which I thought was pretty clear from my original post. Where did I lose you?