I do believe that analog was attempting a joke. I snickered....:)

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's considered a sin. 10 years of Catholic schooling, and I remembered the quote and was able to find it thanks to google:

"Then Judah said to Onan, 'Unite with your brother's widow in fulfillment of your duty as brother-in-law, and thus preserve your broher's line.' Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother's widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. What he did greatly offended the lord." Genesis 38: 8-10

People back then thought of semen as a seed. To them, it was a very small baby waiting to be "planted" in the womb where it would grow. To waste the sperm was to kill a baby. Therefore, pulling out, as is the case in the quote, or masturbating would be considered a sin.

I so enjoy being an atheist that can quote scripture. :)

Many have tried to lay the preverbial 'guilt trip' on people for masturbating. You can accept the guilt or not, I personally never feet guilty.

I do recall the scriptural referenece that basically says, if you've thought about committing adultery, then you have done it and have sinned. When I was married, I did masturbate and think of other women, but not about actually having an affair. A fine line but still....I didnt consider it a sin, I didnt feel guilty, and I reject the whole guilt trip surounding this.

Well, when you scrape away all of the hoopla, that's what it's all about, isn't it? One big ol' guilt trip?

Ah, I find it makes even more sense to reject the whole *religion* surrounding this, but that's just where I'm at these days. ;)

Btw, all my words about this are reflections on what I believed (in the past) and was taught as an evangelical. In my present mode, I think all forms of healthy sexual expression are great... people should have sex, masturbate and enjoy it, they should not consider it a sin, and they should not feel guilty. So I am definitely not trying to induce guilt.

But I AM trying to understand how other Christians make these two behaviors (masturbation vs. imitation of Christ) work logically, within the confines of a faith that says the two are mutually exclusive. It boggles me... it always has.

"Imitate Christ." How do Christians strive to imitate Christ when masturbation clearly requires lustful thoughts and/or debauchery-filled images? Unless I am missing something about masturbation (or Christianity), which I am definitely open to talking about.

abaya, the biggest problem is that most people go to church and are bored for an hour, and whatever they're told is what they believe. Most never bother to read the bible or even think about any of it. And a lot of the ones that do take everything literally. I remember a religion teacher in high school who used to say, "the reason the dinosaurs went extinct is because they couldn't fit on the ark." What was funny was, if you told the priests half the crap he'd say, they'd shake their heads in amazement because they couldn't believe anyone would believe that.

Simple, I dont consider the images I conjure in my mind to be debaucherous in any way. Making Love to a woman is a beautiful & pleasurable experience, and isnt gross, nasty, debaucherous, sinful, lecherous, or distasteful in the least. To lust is a natural part of being human.

onan is not relevant
 

Spectre,

As was clarified previously, the passage about Onan is not about masturbation, but rather withdrawl before ejaculation to avoid providing an heir for a dead brother by impregnating his widow.

The idea that masturbation is morally equivalent to abortion is not found in scripture. Certainly its not the case for female masturbation.

For your consideration:

The original question has three parts.

1) If you are into your religion,
2) is it a sin
3) to masturbate?

The question does not specify which religion, so anyone may reasonably respond from any religious perspective. That the discussion seems to presume a christian framework of understanding is quite limiting, don't you agree? I would love to hear from others who hold different faiths.

The question asks about sin, so in order to answer, sin must somehow be defined. In some religions, the concept of sin may not exist, or sin may be understood in ways that are different from Christianity, Judaism or Islam. In a religion that does not recognize sin, masturbation cannot be a sin, yes?

The question asks about masturbation, but clearly from the diversity of opinion about what that means or what that must necessarily entail, even this part of the question must be clarified. Some people cannot imagine masturbation without fantasy involving another person, so for them, since lust is always involved, perhaps even by definition, masturbation is sinful by virtue of the lust. For those who can masturbate without such fantasy or lust, what then?

As for atheists, in the classic sense of the word, I enjoy discourse with them for I find they have reached their positions through principles and reason, and they challenge the faithful to examine their own assumptions and reasoning, something that is desperately needed these days. Certainly anyone may quote scripture, but my hope is they do it with flare :)

Peace,

Parable

I'd say that according to scripture, they have a free pass to masturbate as much as they'd like. :) Once again, as I understood it, the problem with masturbation (male or female) was not spilling of bodily fluids, nor the act itself: it is what goes on in the mind during the act. If one can discipline the mind to not think about having sex with other people (other than one's wife), then hey, that appears to be sanctioned within Christianity. I've just never known very many people (including myself) who could manage to accomplish that feat. It is, as I and DaveMatrix have agreed, altogether HUMAN to lust, and indeed, to masturbate (gasp!). But I have a feeling that the church (any mainstream one, at least) would not agree.

As I had it, being part of the body of Christ involves treating your body as you would treat his own; to not be simply human, but to strive to be holy and not of this world. It also involves seeing, thinking about, and treating other women/men as sisters/brothers "in Christ" (other than your wife/husband), and not encouraging impure thoughts about them. Disciplining the mind, once again, and not letting the body rule. Rather Cartesian, isn't it...

To avoid the things of this world, to try and be like Christ, sacrificing the indulgences of the body to the Cross and striving always to have control over the "natural," one might say "human" impulses. That is what I understood to be the Christian walk. Pornography seems to have no place in that worldview (not saying that masturbation cannot happen without pornography, but I think we'd all agree here that the two are OFTEN intertwined).

Parable: I was just discussing this with my husband, and commenting that I think serious Muslims (not fanatical ones) are most likely held to the same kind of accountability (via the Koran and other believers) as serious Christians are, by the Bible/New Testament. Many of them take their laws quite literally as well, and I respect them for that (and of course, there are just as many who couldn't care less, as with any religion unfortunately).

Now Buddhists, that's another discussion altogether. :)

is lust just cause for divorce?
 

Within the Christian context, the problem with legalism is well established, no one can actually live up to its requirements, and therefore no one is righteous. This is why Jesus did what he did, but that's another topic.

For example, if adultery is grounds for divorce, and lust in one's heart is morally equivalent to adultery, the lust is grounds for divorce. The point is not to divorce over lust, but instead to show how high God's standards are for righteousness, and hence convict us of our need for His, by Him imparting it to us somehow, and thereby eliminate the need for us to be experience GUILT, which has been mentioned several times by others. They are correct, living under guilt is no way to live.

This of course leads to the question you raised earlier, Abaya, about how Christians seem to lead hypocritical lives. Im sure many do. While I can only speak for myself, the point is that striving to live according to godly principles is not the means to our forgiveness or salvation, but instead the desire to do so is the fruit of the grace we have received, the gratitude we express when we try to be obedient to the law of love. Part of that law is to have compassion, forgiveness and acceptance regardless how well someone lives up to God's standards, including oneself. I note that one need not live an ascetic life, full of denial and suffering, in order to please God.

I suggest John Piper's book Desiring God: Meditations of a Christian Hedonist.

Parable

^I think I like this guy (Or girl).

Right there with ya. This is one of those situations where you say:
"So you think abortion is wrong? Masturbation is abortion. Go bomb your nuts."

Parable, I agree with what you say here, and most of the serious Christian friends I have do strive to live according to those principles. They are outstanding models of the faith and pillars of their church communities, and are some of the most compassionate people I know. They walk the walk, not just talk the talk, out of the gratitude that you express (the fruit of grace). Within that grace, they try very hard to avoid any kind of sexual immorality, whether they are single or married, and I know that for the most part, they succeed. Their self-discipline and surrender of their minds and bodies to Christ is truly beyond belief. They are not hypocrites, even if they are not perfect.

But the hypocrisy I am talking about is not the fact that Christians fail to attain perfection. That is a very clear human trait to me, and needs no further explanation. The kinds of Christians (Muslims, Buddhists, what have you) I respect are people who strive, with as many spiritual/mental/emotional resources as possible, to avoid temptation to whatever their religion says is "sin." And even if they fail, I can respect the fact that they are constantly trying to avoid ensnaring themselves, even if they are not living ascetic lives. I agree with you that denial and suffering are not necessary for pleasing God, and in fact he calls his people to rejoice, to celebrate life, to ENjoy as much as possible. But wouldn't you at least agree that some kind of steady discipline of the self/body/thoughts is necessary, for at least *trying* to grow closer to Christ; to not just follow laws, but to always strive to please God with heart, soul, body, mind? I would say this is one of the centerpieces of the Christian walk, once salvation has been accepted, wouldn't you?

What puzzles and frustrates me, however, is when Christians place themselves right in the middle of temptation to sin, not even *trying* (very hard) to avoid the things that would cause them and others to stumble. They are not fleeing from temptation; they are running headlong into it. I find this kind of behavior very difficult to understand. In my understanding, if one is going to profess to be a Christian and allow one's life to be transformed into that of a witness to Christ, there is just no room for this kind of total indulgence in worldly things. Struggling to overcome it, yes... that, at least, is a form of trying to get the devil behind thee. But to turn *towards* temptation, instead of away from it... now, logically (as a Christian), that just doesn't make sense to me.

For example, does Piper say it's alright to look at pornography? If so, now that would be an interesting read... I'll have to take a look.

The Jewish view isn't bad.

Although some sources take a more narrow view, the general view of halakhah is that any sexual act that does not involve sh'chatat zerah (destruction of seed, that is, ejaculation outside the vagina) is permissible. As one passage in the Talmud states, "a man may do whatever he pleases with his wife." (Nedarim 20b) In fact, there are passages in the Talmud that encourage foreplay to arouse the woman. (Nedarim 20a).

This means masturbation is fine, so long as it pleases your wife and you don't spill that seed by the time you've finished.

Abaya, you said

"But wouldn't you at least agree that some kind of steady discipline of the self/body/thoughts is necessary, for at least *trying* to grow closer to Christ..."

Perhaps the steady discipline is fellowship with other believers with whom you are accountable, so they may encourage and support you in your walk. Also, if you endeavor to serve the purposes that God has in mind for you, you realize that you need His help to do those things. So, its important not to hinder your relationship with God by indulging things that alienate you from Him. I am convinced that temptation can only be resisted if there is a more appealing choice to be embraced. Otherwise, its inevitable because no one can simply resist something forever, there must be a proactive choice to do something else. For me, preserving a clean conscience is fundamental to being open to the blessings that God has for me and for others through me, and that is what I try to remember when I struggle with temptation. I believe this is what scripture is talking about when it promises that with every temptation, there is always a way out, a choice for something else.

You said

"What puzzles and frustrates me, however, is when Christians place themselves right in the middle of temptation to sin, not even *trying* (very hard) to avoid the things that would cause them and others to stumble. They are not fleeing from temptation; they are running headlong into it. I find this kind of behavior very difficult to understand."

I believe it is understandable as a failure to have alternatives in mind that are more appealing. It takes an honest person to admit that temptation is all about selfishness. In my experience, the process of becoming more Chist-like is characterized by becoming less attached to selfishness, liberated from the constraints of having it be about me all the time.

You asked, "does Piper say it's alright to look at pornography?"

I don't think so. Piper's thesis is that our natural desires were placed within us to drive us to God, because they remain unfulfilled so long as we attempt to satisfy them with things other than God. As CS Lewis once said

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."

As for porn, here's my view:

See pornography.
See those who have been used to produce it.
See humiliation and degradation.
See in them the opportunity for compassion and love.

See pornography.
See those who profit from it.
See perversion and greed.
See in them the wicked desire to lead others into addiction.

See pornography.
See those who have been seduced by it.
See self-loathing, isolation and dispair.
See in them their secret shame.

See pornography.
See those who have lost a loved one to it.
See heartache.
See in them the pain of betrayal.

See pornography.
See those who help in recovery from it.
See dedication, training and experience.
See in them a promise of freedom.

See pornography.
See those who fight against it.
See courage to take a stand.
See in them a hope to overcome.

See pornography.
See the alternative.
Choose.

Parable

Parable, it seems that we are in agreement after all, except that you're just much more compassionate than I am towards hypocritical Christians. If I get you right, you think masturbation without lust is fine (if possible), but pornography is wrong... for Christians. I can jive with that. I just don't know how many people try *earnestly* to live by it.

To me, if you (general "you," not you specifically) are going to step up and call yourself a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, whatever... then you'd better mean it. Obey the rules, not because they're rules, but because you love the Being who made them, and because you believe they were made for your own well-being and that of others. Don't tempt yourself. Don't even go near the edge. Stay well away from it. Or am I missing something entirely about how Christians are supposed to act towards temptation?

Now, as for your comments about pornography. (Perhaps this is a threadjack, but I don't know.) I agree with them for the most part... a TON of porn is very bad stuff, and is humiliating/degrading/greedy/self-loathing etc. However, there is one porn producer I have seen whose work does not fit into any of the categories you mention. It's called Comstock Films, and their porn is basically the taping of real couples having sex, willfully, soberly, as realistic as it gets. There is no airbrushing, no scripting, no stupid music, no drug and alcohol use, no one in pain or humiliation, nothing secret or perverted. It's just plain old regular sex.

I don't know if that fits into your definition of "ethical pornography" (I am not sure if there is space for such a concept, as a Christian, for the reasons we went over earlier), but for a non-Christian such as myself who is very conscious of the abuses of the porn industry, I like this stuff. I see it as an alternative for me, though more in a secular humanist sense than a spiritual one. But that's just my perspective. :)

Thanks for the exchange, btw. Sometimes it's nice to have a discussion about religion and sexuality that isn't loaded down with annoying assumptions on both sides. Perhaps this fits more in "Philosophy" than "Sexuality" now, heh.

Catholics can beat off just as long as they give themselves the old blueballs? Yikes.

...

MacGyver is my god. He says its okay to punch the little Crompsin likes it owes me money, but suggests that I should do it with weird combinations of common household items and incorporate duct tape whenever possible.

Pornography's got all sorts of alternatives.
Today, I think that I might "choose" girl on girl.

the jewish view
 

Baraka_Guru,

You said "This means masturbation is fine, so long as it pleases your wife and you don't spill that seed by the time you've finished."

What if your wife has been surgically sterilized, so that conception is not possible? That is, at that point her vagina is simply a repository, functionally the same as the ground, is it not? Or, perhaps she has gone through menopause, is there a difference?

What is the logic here? Does oral sex qualify as not spilling the seed?

I'm not trying to be flippant, rather just seeing what the limits are.

Also, I rather like the quote you put as your signature:

"Humankind cannot bear much reality."—T. S. Eliot

Philip K. Dick said something similar...."Sometimes the appropriate response to reality is to go insane".

Parable

Lets see if I have all the rules down for Christianity, you can masturbate if you like, but you cant think lustful thoughts (quite the conundrum there). You can also beat off with your wife present, but you must cum in her vagina...or is that Judaism??? If you're unmarried I suppose you can spill your seed, but you must remain vigilant over your thoughts. Don't think about a penis or vagina whatever you do.... just think of little lambs frolicking in a meadow.

What one might consider a Christian life, others may consider an unwinnable attempt at perfection before God. All our righteousness is as filthy rags before the Lord, Isaiah. All of it.

I'm so glad that Grace is laid before us, and although you dont deserve it, you get it anyway.

Hey man, I'm the first to agree with you on that point, but that's why I walked away from the Christian life itself. I decided the filthy rags were pretty damn fun, and comfortable to boot. Which means I'm most likely destined for hell (unless one believes in eternal salvation... some doctrines do)... but whoops, I don't believe in hell. Why should I?

BTW, I also agree with you on this point... it IS a conundrum, and the one that has been driving my posts on this thread. I don't think the two are inseparable, but as Parable says, maybe for some people they are (they can masturbate without lust). Lucky them.

For the rest of Christians who cannot separate masturbation from lust, the answer seems clear. Masturbation is one way of inviting the devil into one's house and having a beer with him, is it not? It is not fleeing from temptation. If one believes in the devil, one ought to take him damn seriously, I'd think. Would any pastor disagree?

You're NOT going to Hell, abaya! I dont know you personally, but from the posts of yours I've read, I can see you're a decent human being. Its Ok to have sex, its not dirty or filthy in any way, unless you make it so. Its alright to have some fun too, I do and it doesnt diminish whats deep in my heart. I try not to sweat the small shit, I do what I can.......you can too....


Ruth went to her mail box and
there was only one letter. but
She picked it up and looked at it before opening,
then she looked at the envelope again.
& nbsp; There was no stamp, no postmark, only her
name and address. She read the letter:
Dear Ruth:
I`m going to be in your neighborhood Saturday
afternoon and I'd like to stop by for a visit.
Love Always,
Jesus
Her hands were shaking as she placed the letter on
the table.
"Why would the Lord want to visit me?
I'm nobody special.
I don't have anything to offer."
With that thought, Ruth remembered her empty
kitchen c abinets.
"Oh my goodness, I really don't have anything to
offer. I'll have to run down to the store and buy
something for dinner."
She reached for her purse and counted out its
contents. Five dollars and forty cents.
Well, I can get some bread and cold cuts, at
least."
She threw on her coat and hurried out the door.
A loaf of French bread, a half-pound of sliced
turkey, and a carton of milk...leaving Ruth with
grand total twelve cents to last her until Monday.
Nonetheless, she felt good as she headed home, her
meager offerings tucked under her arm.

"Hey lady, can you help us,lady?"
Ruth had been so absorbed in her dinner plans,
she hadn't even noticed two figures huddled in the
alleyway.

A man and a woman, both of them dressed in
little more than rags.
"Look lady, I ain't got a job, ya know, and my wife
and I have been living out here on the street, and,
well, now it's getting cold and we're getting kinda
hungry and, well, if you could help us. Lady, we'd
really appreciate it."
Ruth looked at them both.
They were dirty, they smelled bad and frankly, she
was certain that they could get some kind of work
if they really wanted to
"Sir, I'd like to help you, but I'm a poor woman
myself. All I have is a few cold cuts and some bread,
and I'm having an important guest for dinner tonight and I
was planning on serving that to Him."
"Yeah, well, okay lady, I understand. Thanks anyway."
The man put his arm around the woman's shoulders,
turned and headed back into the alley.
As she watched them leave, Ruth felt a familiar
twinge in her heart.
"Sir, wait!"
The couple stopped and turned as she
ran down the alley after them.
"Look, why don't you take this food.
I'll figure out something else to serve my guest."
She handed the man her grocery bag.
"Thank you lady. Thank you very much!"
"Yes, thank you!" It was the man's wife, and Ruth
could see now that she was shivering.
"You know, I've got another coat at home.
Here, why don't you take this one."
Ruth unbuttoned her jacket and slipped it over the
woman's shoulders.
Then smiling, she turned and walked back to the
street...without her
coat and with nothing to serve
her guest.
"Thank you lady!
Thank you very much!"
Ruth was chilled by the time she reached her front
door, and worried too.
The Lord was coming to visit and she didn't
have any thing to offer Him.
She fumbled through her purse for the door key.
But as she did, she noticed another envelope in her
mailbox.
"That's odd. The mailman doesn't usually come
twice in one day."
Dear Ruth:
It was so good to see you again.
Thank you for the lovely meal.
And thank you, too, for the beautiful coat.
Love Always,
Jesus
The air was still cold, but even without her coat,
Ruth no longer noticed.

Looks like we posted at the same time, Dave. Thanks for the "decent human being" compliment... I do appreciate it, but last I checked, being a decent human being isn't the same as accepting Christ as my savior and asking forgiveness for my sins, and thus avoiding eternal separation from God (hell). Which is one reason I stopped believing in hell, heh.

I am also in total agreement with you about sex, but that is not me speaking as a Christian. I had awesome sex long before I got married, and it was not dirty or filthy in any way (unless I wanted it to be) ;) ... but it just didn't make any sense with who I was professing to be as a Christian. I was not seeking the Lord with all my heart, mind, body and soul, nor did I want to continue trying... because none of it made sense anymore. I was no longer human. My love for God led to obedience of his rules, but it also led to a bloody boring and stifled life where I felt utterly disconnected from 95% of humanity. I know it's not supposed to be that way, but that's how it turned out for me. So I walked away.

And I continue to enjoy all forms of sex and masturbation on a regular basis. ;)

Btw... I know you won't agree with me on this point, but when I was a Christian, I was convinced that the devil was in the details. Literally. The whole "slippery slope" idea... once you surrender just a little bit to temptation, it makes it easier, and easier, and easier.

Hence my present position! Of going to hell (the one I don't believe in), or at least deeply offending God, according to people who are praying for me now. :) Oh, I could do with a little more temptation at the moment, actually. ;)

Just let me be clear on this, you were raised as a fundamentalist Christian??? Or was this a Catholic up bringing??? One of the 2 probably, Because the conflict and guilt in you seems apparent....at least to me.

Both faiths are great at laying down the rules, and the guilt, if you cant seem to follow them all. Which I never have understood, because I was quite sure I read the New Testament and was able to gleen a primitive understanding, even with my feeble mind.

God Loves you abaya, and I'm quite fond of you. So there!! :)

You can be as "decent" as you want. That doesn't mean you're not going to hell :D

Heh, none of the above. I was baptized in the Lutheran church as an infant (by my Thai Buddhist mother), raised as an agnostic/Buddhist (very loosely), confirmed as a Lutheran (age 14, encouraged by my Buddhist mother to go along with my Icelandic father's tradition), became a Christian (also age 14, on my own), attended Baptist church throughout high school (on my own), enrolled in a Free Methodist-affiliated (evangelical) university for my undergrad (totally on my own), converted both my parents to evangelical Christianity (stepdad was a lapsed Catholic, mom a fervent Buddhist)... and then went out into the wide world, and lived. :)

That's exactly what I said a few posts back. Now, this man knows his doctrine. See, DaveMatrix? I AM going to hell. :) Come along for the ride, my fellow TFP'ers! :thumbsup: I

You're not going to hell. Hell is a life full of hate, greed, lies, and oppression, and then you die and cant do a damn thing about it.

Oh... I thought Hell was a place of eternal suffering for those who deny God's truth. My mistake...

:(

Another literal interpretation of scripture.....they just keep comin...

You should be eternally grateful (HAH!) that I didn't use such phrases as "Lake of fire" and "Gnashing of teeth" :D.

I bet you're alot of fun at a party. :)

Yup :suave:

hell
 

The best explanation of hell I have ever read may be found in Dr. Gregory Boyd's book "God at War" (or is it "Satan and the Problem of Evil, I can't remember which)

My second favorite is found in CS Lewis's book "The Great Divorce".

My third favorite is Dante's 7th level (I think) where you are completely frozen, not burning.

Boyd essentially explains how hell can be a place of eternal torment yet also utter annihilation at the same time, as indicated by scripture. (paradoxical if you think about it) He is absolutely brilliant, definitely worth reading.

In all three authors, though, hell is a place you choose for yourself.

As Lewis said, the gates of hell are locked from within.

Parable

You know what, Dave? You're alright. :) This was actually the exact same "interpretation" of hell that I came up with, after all my years believing in the traditional sulphurous hot lakes (Iceland?), gnashing-of-teeth (I do that at night), eternal separation from God definition of hell. (That's the one I stopped believing in.)

But, consulting with many other Christians and reading up quite a bit, my interpretation of hell (same as yours) wasn't terribly doctrinal. I still "believe" in that one (hell for the living, as a result of all the hurt we cause ourselves and each other), but instead call it "karma" because that simply makes more sense. Buddhism is good for those kinds of concepts. :)

So, Infinite Loser, how about the question that started this thread (in the subject)? I'm interested if you agree with all my pontificating about it thus far, from a Christian perspective (which is not my own).

yet another take on the after life
 

Surprise You're Dead, by Faith No More

"Surprise! youre dead!
Ha ha! open your eyes
See the world as it used to be when you used to be in it
When you were alive and when you were in love
And when I took it from you!
Its not over yet
You dont remember?
I wont let you forget
The hatred I bestowed
Upon your neck with a fatal blow
From my teeth and my tongue
Ive drank and swallowed, but its just begun
Now you are mine
Ill keep killing you until the end of time
Surprise! youre dead!
Guess what?
It never ends...
The pain, the torment and torture, profanity
Nausea, suffering, perversion, calamity
You cant get away"

3 guesses as to who is singing to the damned....

Its all in the interpretation, just as Parable said earlier, some scripture may be taken literally, others seen as a mythical or allegorical, and so on. I dont follow a fundamentalist approach, and I have beliefs that follow other faiths, which I mentioned in the 'We are God' thread. They're definitely not doctrinal, but I consider that a good thing. Fundamentalist would almost certainly consider me a blasphemer or hypocritical, but thats cool with me, judge not...and all that. :)

Its either Mephastophales, Keith Richards, or GW Bush. Has to be one of em... :)

I've always liked this song.

Queen - The Prophets Song

Oh Oh people on the earth
Listen to the warning
The seer he said
Beware the storm that gathers here
Listen to the wise man.

I dreamed I saw on a moonlit stair
Spreading his hands on the multitude there
A man who cried for a love gone stale
And ice cold hearts of charity bare.
I watch as fear took the old men's gaze
Hopes of the young in troubled graves
I see no day, I heard him say
So grey is the face of every mortal.

Oh Oh people on the earth
Listen to the warning
The prophet he said
For soon the cold of night will fall
Summoned by your own hand.

Oh Oh children of the land
Quicken to the new life
Take my hand
Fly and find the new green bough
Return like a white dove.

He told of death as a bone white haze
Taking the lost and the unloved babe
Late too late all the wretches run
These kings of beasts now counting their days.
From mother's love is the son estranged
Married his own his precious gain
The earth will shake in two will break
And death all around will be your dow'ry


Oh Oh people of the earth
Listen to the warning the seer he said
For those who hear and mark my words
Listen to the good plan.

Oh Oh - and two by two my human zoo

They'll be
runnung for to come
running for to come
out of the rain

Flee for your life
Who heed me not, let all your treasure make you
Fear for your life
Deceive you not the fires of hell will take you
Should death await you.

God give you grace to purge this place
And peace all around may be your fortune.

Oh Oh children of the land
Love is still the answer, take my hand
The vision fades, a voice I hear

re: debauchery-filled images...

I find this concept filled with irony. I read somewhere the following, although it may be loosely quoted;

"Common church doctrine seems to teach, sex is a dirty, disgusting, (debaucherous) thing, and should be saved for someone you love"

I know that not all churches literally teach sex to be dirty and debaucherous, but many seem to leave that impression. I found the quote to be rooted in truth in my experience.

Im with DaveMatrix....."Making Love to a woman is a beautiful & pleasurable experience, and isnt gross, nasty, debaucherous, sinful, lecherous, or distasteful in the least."

I don't think anyone's against the idea... at least I hope not. The fact, though, is that based on the Bible, thinking about making love to a woman other than one's wife is a sin, and that's where the lust comes in and the devil gets a foothold and all that crap. That's what I have a problem with... that the church teaches that everyone must lock down their minds completely and refuse to be human. I know that some people succeed at doing so, and take on some kind of mystical personality as a result of all their "discipline." But it creeps me out, personally, to repress so much of what is natural. Once again, another reason I'm no longer part of the church.

I think there is a major difference between, a married man lusting after a woman he's actually met and then masturbating or contemplating adultery, and a guy who just masturbates thinking of a woman. The former has intent, he is sexually attracted to her and wants to have sex outside his marriege. The later has no intent, IMO....

i agree DaveMatrix if i found out my boyfriend was masturbating over pictures/ videos of people he knew or had spoke to even, then i would be really upset but porn is fine by me, its natural for men to look but if the connection between him the person hes looking at is more personal then it would hurt