I think it's interesting how Ladder Theory discussions almost always become long and spirited. I think there's a kernel of truth in it, personally. I've been on both ends of its stick, as the "cuddle bitch" and the (perceived) bad boy who gets the girl. It's not scientific by any means, but it does tend to predict and explain behaviors of a certain segment of society. I think it's primarily driven by college-level experiences. The Theory is strongly rooted in late-night coffee shop philosophizing and post-clubbing hangovers.

Once you leave the college phase and get a job and enter Real Life, I don't think it applies as much. You keep hitting on girls at clubs and bars, though, and it will rear its ugly head.

In the end, it's written by someone who's grown cynical, perhaps even misogynistic, and that will color your views on many subjects.

This is the operative quotation in this discussion so far. When I was in college, I (and everyone else I knew both male and female) totally bought this. We bought it and played by the rules and complained or reveled in its self-fulfilling predictions. It's tempting and, in the fubar'd college dating scene, it makes an unfortunate amount of sense in both directions.

Then we grew up, and, for most of us, it just kind of went away. I wouldn't put too much stock in it.

Yes, and
yes. You fellas are right on the money here. (Bolding mine.)

Here here. *ItWasMe buys MM a drink.*

There is more than a kernel of truth to the theory. I have seen both women and men who played that game, moreso when I was younger. If anyone (men or women) think that most of the opposite sex is that way, maybe you are looking in the wrong places. I was never a player, and most of my female friends were not.

On a personal note, a policeman came to our high school and taught us how to not look like a potential victim. How to walk looking a block away instead of at the ground. To look people in the eye for "x" number of seconds when walking by. In college, because I was shy and quiet, but did not look the part, nice guys quickly gave up trying to talk to me. Bad boys don't give up so easily, and probably thought I was just playing "hard to get." Point is...to everyone who thinks all women play games... how soon would *you* have walked away and chalked her up to being a player/stuckup/etc?

well what i meant by my earlier post is that it's true if you can see through it's "radical honesty" approach, and downsize it's hyperbole to the men's primary factor being "attraction" and the women's being "financial security"


It's true, women don't want to waste their time with a man who cannot provide for them in a long term relationship.

Long term, think long term.

you can spend 5-10 years with a guy and if he's still a bum, he's still mooching. it doesn't matter how charming and funny he is, you'll have the instinctual want for a better "provider", one more efficient at the hunter/gatherer aspect of modern society.

This isn't a bad thing, it really isn't so just admit that it's true. Because if you settle for less, you're just a doormat.

No. There's a HUGE gray area between wanting to be with a guy who's not a bum, and wanting to be with a guy who has money and can therefore "provide for you." I can provide for myself, and have worked hard to get to the point where I am financially salient without any man being present in my life, thanks. Does that mean that I want to be married to a slacking-ass bum who settles for the lowest common denominator of jobs? No. Just as I would expect my husband to not want ME to be a bum, I equally would like for him to not be a bum. It goes both ways. Why the hell would I expect someone to "take care of me" just because I have a vagina, and he has a penis? Seriously.

It's not about hunting/gathering or which set of genitalia you possess... it's about being mature enough to take responsibility for your own life, financially, emotionally, and in every other way. That means BOTH partners (male, female, gay, straight, what have you) being financially stable and able to handle their own money matters. It means BOTH partners carry their own emotional weight and deal with their own shit without projecting it onto their partner, and being willing to seek out counseling when needed (on their own!). It means being responsible for yourself first, and for your partner next (regardless of gender), and for your children together.

you speak as if your opinion is fact. as evidenced by the differing opinions in this thread, you have your opinion, and I have mine. My experience is different than yours. thats all I have to say about that.

The funny thing is the sex ratio is still very close to 50-50. Its that way for a reason.

For all the intricacies and wierdness of sex and human relationships, there is in fact just about someone for everyone.

Maybe it requires a bit of lowered expectations, which is why I think a lot of the BS fades away as you get older, but sooner or later everyone can find a mate that 'matches' them.

Its not a ladder but it is a hierarchy. The exceptions help prove the rule how did she get HIM?!

I don't see how abaya's presenting her opinion as irrefutable fact. She's simply stating it, without reservation or apology.

Why should she state it any other way?

... because we got married? ... because we stopped chasing ass?

Dating seems to be a funny dick dance regardless of how old ya get.

By "grow up" I mean, "realized that the point of looking for a partner is not random tail but rather someone that you enjoy spending time with and compliments your lifestyle." You don't play games with your partner in life if you want a happy relationship, and the ladder theory is all about playing games to get ass.

[Rant]

You know when I read that site I immediately started to imagine the author as this bitter nerd (the not good kind) sitting on his ars living in Ma's basement, who probably copped shit at school from all the jocks.

And to him I say:

Grow up and stop blaming the world for all your problems. Sooooo you couldn't sleep with any of your female friends and got sick of being used as a cuddle bitch. Maybe you should have been honest with yourself and your friends and made your intentions clear from the outset instead of giving yourself blue balls because you were too much of pussy to ask them out.

Honestly, harden the fuck up and get over yourself. Acting like an whiny lil bitch because you can't get women to treat you same way mommy did isn't attractive and perhaps the reason you're having problems. Here's my advise, try not being a tool, it might just work.

If you're going to go after superficial gaols and have superficial values, then you should accept that that's the game you're playing and you can expect to be treated the same way in return.

Here's an idea, instead of dedicating all your time to dissecting basic social interactions in your bitter little cave of despair, why don't you use that time to actually try to get to know people, and women. Who knows, a bit of sun and vitiman D might just curb stinking fucking attitude.

Honestly, what a load of crap.

[/rant]

this thread is a joke.

Agreed :)

Oh, but you act like this is a surprise! I'm never serious.

{bitter babble}

To no one in particular and those whom it may concern... and to myself:

Oh, and LIFE is a fucking joke. What a sick little masked puppets we are and what a perverse little stage we dance on in our disgusting little show. SURE, the "nice guy" system of survival really works. Are "you" calling this silly little theory bullshit because it touched that broken shard of glass stuck in your heart known as "truth?" Can you count the failures of the "nice guy" system on your fingers? NO, there isn't enough time on the planet! Hell, "your" feelings have more shoe prints on them than your cock 'n balls by this point... and we lost count of those since "you" hit puberty, son.

In order to be successful in life we must market ourselves. Sell ourselves. "Six pack abs." Prepackaged goods. "Whiten your teeth." New car smell. "GET BIG & HARD 4 HER." New and improved. "Boob job." EXTREME FLAVOR.

You go through your whole life telling yourself that people just gotta be deeper than what we concoct with bullshit philosophies like these to simplify our interactions, but it turns out everybody else is trying to believe that too (while not practicing it) and such great social surface tension never breaks when "everybody" is holding it up unconsciously like the hydrophilic heads on the thin layer of phospholipids that hold together our very cells.

{/babble}

Nah, seriously... we are what we do.

I wasn't disagreeing with the ladder theory or your post.

I'm going to sound like an asshole, but I really don't give a fuck, I think most people are deluding themselves into feeling more refined or evolved as human beings just because they put themselves up on a pedestal above and beyond this theory as if it's beneath their way of living.

again, extract the message from the hyperbole and you stand with a plate full of truth that you don't want to eat. It would mean you've been wrong about your choice to champion the little causes of human interaction.

and like that witty little fucker above me just said, indirectly, if it wasn't true, luxury wouldn't be a commodity, beauty wouldn't be marketed. The fact that society is what it is, is because we exist in it. Seperate yourself from it all you want, it doesn't change a damned thing.

The thread is a joke because of all the rampant denial that people have over what are natural base instincts. I see a hot girl, then yes, holy crap, I'm going to notice, its my "cultured" self that takes hold and keeps me from falling over myself like and idiot and growing a fat boner over it.

Just like some girl might find out that her boyfriend is super wealthy, she might make sacrifices in the "looks" department for this. I've seen many girls settle for guys who seem beneath them in personality, intelligence, and so on.

and guess what? they aren't bad people at all, they aren't your "club scene" people that half the posters in this thread seem to want to rip apart for being the dregs of society, for making YOU, in all your difference, LOOK BAD! *gasp*

I'm NOT saying that that site is even remotely supposed to be taken in a literal manner. It's too "out there" for that. I AM saying that there is a BASIS OF REALITY for his observations, and his theory.

Totally.

Is funny. Especially since I'm on the outside looking in at the sad dog and pony show that is dictated by said rules.

:)

I'm going to assume the was vaguely directed at me Cromp,

Dude, I've had my feelings hurt and my heart crushed just as much as anyone else. But hey, some people can build a bridge a get over it.

Sorry man, I'm not going to take advise from someone who makes statements like:

Actually, bro... I wasn't talking about you at all. I was being vague because I meant it. That and myself. This is how I feel about myself at times. People listen to "you" statements more, though. And it sounds less like I'm an egocentric self-bashing prick.

...

HUMOR, HUMOR! I think the author of said bullcrap was trying to be funny and exaggerated with all get-out to help inject said funny.

Aaaaah sorry bro....... Hehehe we're nearing an election over here, I'm not in a funny mood after reading the paper.

To be honest my post was more for the sake of going on a humorous rant.

I don't disagree with Shauk. There are undeniable to trends in both sexes, and a lot of reactions and emotions we humans have are driven by straight biology. I'm not denying this at all.

But if someone is going to actually expect me to take their sociological theory seriously, then it might help to not come across as whiny bitter turd.

emm, i actually think that (sadly) the author was pretty serious about it. Part of the reason that it cannot be taken seriously, however, apart from the rampant platitudes, is that the author's tone basically says "it is this way because I said so, and if you don't believe it, then you are proving my point" or more succinctly, "if you believe me then you think I'm right, and if you don't believe me then you prove I'm right." I am happy to say that i have had the pleasure of many great women throughout my life without having to resort to being a shallow douchebag.

Shauk made the best points here.

I've yet to see anyone reason why the ladder theory is totally wrong. "Because it is!" doesn't constitute a valid argument. Whether or not you want to admit it, the theory has quite a basing in truth and just about any non-gay guy knows this. You see, it has nothing to do with a woman being 'immature', but rather it has everything with her being a woman. I'm fairly sure I could go searching through the "Ladies Lounge" for posts which completely validate the ladder theory. What would you think of that? :)

IL: That would be like boxing with a bad guy made of Jell-O.

Pointless. And possibly fruit-flavored.

Allright. I'll bite. Why would it be pointless?

Remember the "enemy?"

Yes, that is why. ;)

*Doesn't get it*

I don't think anyone is saying that it's absolutely wrong. I think that the folks who don't care for it are saying that the people to which it applies are immature and/or shallow.

I know what they've said, and I'm saying that's a cop out.

Who knows, you may be right. Like I said, I think there's a kernel of truth in it. But I and most people I know encountered a much different scheme once we got into our mid-20s. You know what I think happened? We got more interesting. People stopped fucking around because they were no longer bored by the people around them. It no longer boiled down to "If you're hot and dangerous, I'll fuck your brains out and cuddle with the B-team." I think there are people who maintain that line of thinking. Because they don't get interesting.

I'm not trying to say in any way that you're uninteresting -- I have no idea. It's just a general philosophy with plenty of rule exceptions.

Why is it a cop out? Why isn't ladder theory a cop out?

some houses have basements. no matter how much furniture, wood, paint, electronics, art, and people you stuff in to it to make it different, they still have basements. They're dark and dirty and never what you see from the outside, or from a mere visit.

(speaking in tongues LALALALALA)

That theory works well when one speaks only of houses with basements, a group that is smaller in number than the group of all houses.

*not entirely sure what we're talking about here*

houses with basements, damnit.

What if you live in an apartment?

What about basement apartment?

Because, chances are that if you have multiple people formulating similiar answers in the absense without having spoken to each other, then you'd expect there to be some amount of truth in their conclusions. That's why :D

(Or are you gonna' say that any guy who agrees with the ladder theory is bitter/chasing an immature female?)

Though I'm cynical about the whole dating idea and I sometimes put more stock in the Ladder Theory than I should, I still prefer a relationship with someone I could see myself being friends with (or possibly someone I was already friends with), because in the end its about companionship, which oddly resembles the traits of a strong friendship.

I think I just use phrases like "friend zone" and "friend ladder" to disguise my disgust for my own lack of "game" (for lack of a better word).

-Will

That pretty much sums it up for me, good work Ustwo. From reading that site that's pretty much al the truth that was on there.

One thing I have noticed is that you're all looking at what the site says about women and how they view men. What about what it says about how men view women?

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/images/manrating.jpg

So for those of you who are taking what this guy says as fact I assume all you want in a partner is a hot girl that's going to put out? You only care a minuscule amount about whether she's smart, funny, religious, politicall active etc etc? Long as she's hot and easy you don't really care if she's a whole bag full of crazy?

Says alot about those of you who are treating this guys opinion as gospel

Obviously other people think this guy is bitter or this wouldn't be his response to it - 54% of the worlds population at last count was female. I'm amused this ONE guy thinks he's qualified to make that statement.

I almost posted instead of

"the women around here wont agree"

something more along the lines of

"the women and some others will be very bitchy about this and basically tell the OP to grow up"

Either way I was right.

Infinite_loser is right on who he thinks doesn't agree on this

1) woman
2) asshole dude who woman love, (but they should believe it b/c it says woman love assholes)



I've also found that (not directly pointing at anyone)

3) woman who men find.... umm less attractive? Do not agree and are actually the group I find that may be able to contradict the theory. Because they won't (without a stroke of luck) get a dude on the left ladder that is of optimal aethetics... so they tend to look for other qualities, such as, the ones listed that the majority of women don't really care about.

also as filtheron stated, the unattractive men also will not fall into the "more than friend ladder" for slightly different reasons than unattractive women.

Though, they will still believe in the ladder theory, not because of its accuracy, but because they need some sort of reasoning behind why women do not like them. Ladder theory gives quite a few of those reasons to them.

Erm... That's totally true. How else do you explain the fact that the hot, slutty crazy chicks never seem to have a problem finding a guy to hook up with? :D