TFP womens guide to....men
 

Ladies, it has become clear to me that there is a huge knowledge base sitting here waiting to help us poor men better serve you. My hope is, that you might give unto us.....the lowly dreamers of your splendor, such knowledge required to make you all happy.

Seriously....we need all the help we can get.


Please tell us what you truly desire in a man.

Tec, in my experience the best way to go about doing this is to ask the woman you seek to please specifically, seeing as all women are different. I'll give you an example: my lady loves the smell of cedar. I put cedar in my drawers so that my shirts and sweaters have a slight hint of cedar. I don't mind the smell myself, really, so it's mutually beneficial. It's nothing big, and I can guarantee that it's not something all women will appreciate.

Also it repels pests, I've come to find out.

Understood, but this isnt meant as a "Tec Needs Advice" thread.....its meant to be a library of the many tastes woman have, that all men might gain insight into the mystery we all deal with every day.

For starters... do you remember the "Porn for women" thread? The one that had a man cooking for no reason or otherwise helping out with things around the house? Fowers for no reason? The thread that most of the men scoffed at?

THOSE are the thigns that make most women go pitter-patter and make sure that the men doing them get laid much more often. :D

just so you realize every one of us will have a COMPLETELY different idea of what we want for this one tec....

ok, i'll bite -

He must be able to get up, bathe, dress appropriately, go to (and KEEP) a job, pay his bills on time, not be wallowing in debt, (some is fine, but a LOT is not). come home from work and after a reasonable "winding down" time - participate in whatever personal, family or social (within reason) activity is required with a minimum of fuss. He must be able to have at least a minimal grasp of why women think that a new vacuum cleaner (used DAILY) is (in our opinion) more important than spending the same amount of money for ball game tickets for that weekend. hmm.. Must be able to tolerate a house full of women having oh i don't know - a tupperware party or something once in a while if he expects to have his buddies around for the game on sunday. must NEVER use personal grooming implements on fishing line, wire, (finger nail clippers) or to turn screws "in a pinch" (tweezers, nail files) if he expects his beard/moustache trimmer not to be used for the pelvic region. mmm, If he doesn't want his shaving cream used for our legs etc, he can't bitch about us spending the money on the "girlie equivalent" Ah! He must not be a "shedder" ie: walk in the house, take off coat, drop, take a step, kick off shoe, take a step, kick off other shoe, take a step, toss keys on table, take a step, set briefcase/bag down, take a step - and so on. STOP AT THE DOOR. USE THE CLOSET. Must realize that unless they make enough for a housekeeper, they do NOT have one, and everyone there should do their part not to trash the house. BE OBSERVANT - if every time you "put X "there" your female MOVES IT, and it is always moved TO THE SAME PLACE - wake up and just put it there to begin with - your chosen place to put said item is unacceptable and we don't feel we should have to tell you where it belongs. we don't move your shit because we love you and want to pick up after you, we move it because where you put it ANNOYS US.
I'll stop here, because this is getting long, and its just the TIP of the iceberg. I have people that ask me ALL THE TIME why I am not in a relationship. I am not because I realize I am picky, and am sick of settling for less than what I want. It's easier to be alone than to train a man not to fuck up with me.

Reminds me of my 3 letter word qualifications...
He must have a J O B
He must have a C A R
He must not live with his M O M or D A D or in the basement of any other such relative
If he has a K I D he needs to pay his child support and not be a deadbeat

Most if what Midnight said goes for me too... hell hath no fury like that Pan discovered I am capable of when he used my good pair of tweezers to try to pull out a fuse in the car.

*grins* Methinks sage and I could give you a plenty long list all on our own here Tec.....

My biggest - be willing and attempt to communicate. Just as you cannot read our minds .. we cannot read yours. We don't know how our behavior may be making you feel or react, for better or worse. Be willing to call us out when we're not "making sense" so that it comes out on the table.

For me.. the "noticing" that shit is being moved is not really fair to the guy if there's not been an actual discussion as to WHY that particular location is annoying. If after the fact there is an agreement and you forget or feel lazy... just think twice before you commit yourself to something in the future if you don't like being nagged. I think we're born with that gene, to varying degrees.

Oh. And I like any guy who can give a quality foot massage has forever earned a place in my heart.

*Nods* Foot massage or a good back rub will make me purr too!

amonkie : no "discussion" is needed. one time of saying "dont put that there. it goes *place it belongs*" should be enough when the person leaving shit lying around is NOT the one that cleans the damned house

Gee, is that all??? A relationship is normally a matter of compromise, each side gives a little, but neither getting completely what they want, unfortunately thats reality. Unless one side is domineering and the other submissive, and both agree on those terms. It shouldn't be the womans answer to everything is correct, unless the guy is just some pussy, and caves on everything. Although that does happen.........

/me slowly backs the fuck out of this thread

I think the mention of communication is important. To expect a man to be "perfect" is setting yourself up for disappointment as much as it is to expect a woman to be "perfect." This is real life: we're not perfect.

If something bothers you, it doesn't help to either quietly stew over it or to be confrontational. Many things we do are habitual or related to our situation. A man who "sheds" when getting home may do so because he is completely exhausted and doesn't think it's a big deal. (My wife often "sheds" something fierce, and she has way more crap than I do.) Maybe he intends to do something with the stuff later, but gets even more exhausted as the day ends. I think this kind of thing is more habitual. Maybe this is how some of us act when we get home, and we don't realize how it affects our partners, especially if they don't say anything about it.

I think the best way to look at any of these items (and these seem to me an itemized list of "desirable traits and habits in our partners") is to realize that we are often overwhelmed with distractions. We must communicate how we feel about things, and what we expect of others...and why. If it makes sense, then you can certainly reach some compromises, and maybe even breakthrough solutions.

Do you want a life partner, or a caregiver? Is there no more on this list? (Besides the massages...)

It's rare when a comment on the internet gets a belly laugh out of me. Had you not used fuck, the comment would have gone unnoticed. The fuck really gave the comment some kick. Well met.

A point of clarification....
Is living in a basement apartment okay?

Actually further clarifications would be nice: McJob, K-car, and not affording gas for it because of child-support payments okay?

If Brad Pitt lived in his parent's basement, I doubt many ladies would be picky.

ah yes, the men chime in. Tec wanted answers, starts to get HONEST ones, and the men just have to show up and complain... and THIS is why men dont get the answers that tec asked for in the first place

I'm sorry, who's complaining? :orly:

I don't recall the men using too many all-caps words....

not you baraka.. no no of course not. (roflmao) this thread asked what women want. not what men think about what women want.

I'm still sticking with my initial post. It's just like dieting: some diets work well for some people and not for others. Why? We're all different, be it physically or emotionally. What one will want or need, another may hate. Some women don't even like an honest man! Your best bet is to do your due diligent investigations, find out what makes her happy and unhappy, and to allow the act of being yourself to fit that as well as you can. No tricks. No all applicable rules of thumb. Just Tecoyah being the best Tecoyah he can be. Or anyone being the best anyone he can be.

Yeah, you're right, Midnight. I simply thought your reaction was a bit much when Tec was asking about your "desire". *shrugs* Is there anything else you would add to what you said? What else is it you look for?

will: agreed
Baraka: yeah. i'd add that my post may seem like i have rigid rules. but it needs to be understood that when I am the only one working, and the one doing the cooking. cleaning, shopping, bill paying and so on, I am well within my rights to expect the behavior outlined above. (which was the situation at the time in question) I have NEVER after the initial 6 months, found myself still in a partnership. the result is movement from a partnership into a dictatorship, and rightfully so. I dont deny pussy as punishment as some women do when "things go awry" because I actually ENJOY sex. but I will make a mans life a living hell, on purpose. now, im sure you can see why i choose to be ALONE as opposed to going thru the trouble.

How about someone I dont have to support who is responsible.

So can money replace a man? If you were independently wealthy, would you be happy on your own? There's gotta be more to it.

On a more serious note...

I am currently in the best relationship I have ever been in. Why? Because we are both adults. We don't HAVE take care of one another, but rather we enjoy being able to. We appreciate each other, and our individual strenghts and weaknesses compliment each other well.

We both communicate, openly and honestly. we don't have to guess @ what each other is thinking, because we talk. I've never been as happy in a relationship as I am now.

how about someone that respects one man's right to ask for the opinion of women at large without men feeling the need to pipe up about what they find wrong with the logic of the women posting?

*glances at the Lady's Lounge*

With all due respect, Midnight, though Tec is one man, he was asking on the behalf of the rest of us.

And, like you, we demand satisfaction.



Note in the margin: I realize my post rate so far is unnecessarily high, so I will go to bed now.

well on that note, im done posting in the thread. so what little help i might have been will now be, (im sure to the relief of the masses) withdrawn. good luck to you all.

woah....ya'll know my first comment was an attempt to lighten the mood a little, right?

Basically if I understand what the ladies are saying its that they want us to be MEN not little boys.

Quite right, I apologize, he did ask for the ladies opinions. I'll just shut the fuck up now.

The thread's fair game. This is a discussion site. He could have easily asked a female mod to start it in the Ladies Lounge if his intent was to have only female replies. Trust me, tecoyah knows the system here.

Uber: that was a thread addition, ie: what i want; not telling the men not to - they want to know what we want. Tec's knowledge of the system was never in question.

Oddly I've found what women say they want in a man vrs what they really want in a man only mildly correlate.

I found that they key to womens happiness was changing the direction of the question.

The issue, I discovered was not trying to please the woman so much as convincing the woman you were worth pleasing. Now this sounds self serving and manipulative and perhaps it is, but its also what fits our nature. Even if you are snipped, she is tied, and on 4 forms of birth control, sex is still about reproduction. Its 100% chemical and its far older than our species. As such women want men who are strong, not necessarily physically, though it can help but mentally. Someone who can rise in status. A strong man doesn't grovel at a womans skirt so to speak. I figured this out in my late teens (after being rather unsuccessful in long term relationships) because despite being very attentive and everything you would think a woman would want in man, I was always sending signals that she could do better.

How does this translate into the real world? Its rather late and hard to explain in detail at this hour for me, but its basically letting her know that you are desirable and worthy of her doing things to make YOU happy. Instead of trying to impress her, give her chances to impress you.

Some men try to act like peacocks. They display and strut and attempt to woo the female with their actions, but we are not wired like peacocks. Peacock males do nothing for the female after sex, the female is stuck rearing the chicks all by herself. As such she picks the 'best male' and he shows off for her (and every other peahen out there, they are not monogamous). Acting like this is dooming you to failure, both short and long term.

As human child rearing is generally a two way en devour, you show your strength as a potential (and later as a) provider and protector. Its not something conscious for most women, but to deny its there is to deny who we are. If you do this then those moved glasses are a little less irritating, she can forgive you for not changing the toilet paper roll, and she won't be quite so upset if you don't make a big deal about the latest Hallmark Holiday.

Now a word of warning. I'm sure many have read this and interpreted it as me saying the key is to be a jerk. While apparently for some women that IS in fact something they seem to find attractive, thats not what I'm advocating. What I'm saying is show her that you are your own man, that you can do well without her if she decided to leave, that you don't NEED her even if you would prefer she is with you.

As for my qualifications in making these claims. Well evolutionary biology qualifications aside (and yes this is all found there) I've been married to the same woman for 10 years, and we have been together for 17, we were in a long distance relationship for a number of years without issue, we have two kids, most people would think we act more like newlyweds and I think we have the strongest marriage I know of.

Things that would make me happy with a man? I'll just give a list of things I am currently looking for in a man shall I?

I want someone that remembers stupid dates like my birthday, valentines , Christmas, Easter and our anniversary. Doesn't need to be a big deal just a cuddle, a kiss, a cheap bunch of flowers from the local shopping centre or even just hold me close and tell me he loves me.

Someone who when we go for a walk will hold my hand, or give me his coat if I'm cold.

I'm looking for someone who when I come home from a day at work and I am in tears will run me a hot bath and make me a cup of tea rather then asking me when dinner will be ready. Someone who'll laugh and tease me when I do something stupid like start crying over a book or sad movie or even if I'm just drunk and making up words.

If he comes home from work and I have gone to the effort of doing something romantic the first thing out of his mouth shouldn't be "I hope you realise I'm not helping you clean up all these rose petals"

I want a man who values me as an equal, who realises that I am his partner in life. Someone who I can lean on and rely on, with who I don't have to be strong all the time.

For me those are the main things, ofcourse little things like remembering my favourite scent or that I prefer him with a beard / clean shaven etc always helps ;)

Women arn't a collective whole. Just because they are mysterious to some men does not mean they conspire to keep secrets. There's a stereotype here that men are simple and women are difficult, but that's ridiculous. Women, men, people are complicated. Asking for what women want and expecting a miraculous revelation of an answer, is just a ludicrous fantasy that really just belittles the individual woman and rapes her of her personal identity. You can find your idiots guide to women in Men's health, or Cosmo, or some other cheap magazine that appeals to everyone with this kind of dilemma, but that's all that it (and this) is, a pipe dream for desperate people. Treat a woman as a individual person just like yourself. Communicate and ask her what she wants, and decide if you are willing to give her that.
But maybe this thread was just about fun and entertainment... if it is we all kinda missed the point a while ago.

Heated threads man me a sad panda :sad:

Any how, for what it's worth, I can sort understand where Lady Sage and Midnight are coming from.

I currently wouldn't want to be in a relationship where I had to support my SO entirely. I want to be with someone who has a similar level of financial and emotional independence. So, I can understand where they're coming from.

Having said that though, you love who you love and I'm only ever too willing to compromise.

Hey, people want what they want. An honest question was asked, and the ladies are trying to give honest answers.

And I think Will has made an extremely good point which puts peoples answers in context.

Peace out :)

Quoted for truth

Perhaps my clarity in this thread is lacking, but the purpose is actually being met. It is important to understand that indeed, every single woman will have desires in a man quite unique and thats a good thing. If however, one were to take the "collective" theme so far a pattern becomes somewhat clear, and this is within about 12 hours. My hope here is the creation of a resourse for those terribly confused by the women they encounter, and a place to study the psycology in hopes of making a smoother passage. The benefits of such a library should be felt by both men and women as they form relationships.
There is of course an entertainment aspect to this, otherwise I doubt I would even have created the thread, but that does not mean we need disregard the Data while we smile and laugh. Gaining insight into the female mind is never a bad idea, My hope is this thread continues to allow us to do so....and give everyone a good chuckle in the process.

Unfortunately you completely miss my point. I was completely secure when I was single and I am secure now that I am married.

The point is that marriage is a 2 way street. I do not feel that my husband should have to support me- nor do I feel the need to support someone else.

WHY would I want to waste my time looking after someone who isnt self sufficient? If I wanted to do that, I would have adopted a puppy instead.

Note: If Pan were in a horrid accident tomorrow and I had to take care of him I would.

much to your dismay i'm sure, i'm back.

It might come to mind, at least for some of you, that I would be better off alone, and the MEN would certainly be better off - well I've been alone for a number of years now, and perfectly content. I don't argue with myself, I put things where they belong, and I don't argue with myself about finances, or anything else. whats my point?

I'd like for a man NOT to insist to me over and over that my current single situation is NOT what I want. Um, yes it is. At this point in time, I've become so completely disenchanted with the male sex and its behavorial variables that I'm by myself and fine that way. That doesn't mean to say that other people would be able to deal with that. But yeah - I STRONGLY desire men to quit f'ing telling me that I don't really want to be alone.

Some folks are called to the single life.

Sorry, Lady Sage, I wasn't completely missing it; I was simply speaking to the aspect of it that I wasn't clear on. But you have fixed that. Thank you.



And I'm inclined to agree with Ustwo for the most part, but I'm not completely certain. No women have commented on what he said.

I wish there was some way you could convince my sister-in-law that these are worthwhile benchmarks. All four husbands thus far would have not met most of those qualifications with the current one not meeting any. As it is, I believe she will be with this one for the long haul due to her feeling like divorcing a fourth time being another failure on her part.

And no offense to the OP, but I don't know that this thread will ever go in the direction you intended due to reasons already noted. However while it may never become a tool for a woman's guide to men, it is a good discussion.

This is what I want.

Don't we all?

I dunno... can I have fries with that?

(Attempt at making people chuckle)

/chuckles

Dang it! I was sincerely hoping that I could pick up some good tricks on bettering myself as a husband, but instead I spent 10 minutes perusing this thread and all I get to walk away with is "pick up after myself"..........

I just hope that everyone can see eye to eye after the dust settles.

It is a bit of a pisser ain't it...heh. Give it a month, it should get much better.

I know nobody is going to believe this... But seriously... I shampooed the living room carpet naked today instead of watching the late games.

My wife seems pleased. she likes the way the room smells freshly 'pooed.

Psycho dad- I hope she rewarded you by making the sheets dirty for doing that!

Since I am married, obviously am not actively looking for the following. BUT, if hubby and I split up in the future, this is what I would want for something more than a fling.

1. Physical attraction. Just doesn't work without it.
2. Similar life philosophies...in regards to religion, political leanings, etc. Opposites may attract, but I don't think they tend to make it for the long haul.
3. No one is perfect. He has to accept my faults, and I have to accept his.

That is all.

It has been mentioned that Tec knows why he began this thread here rather than in Ladies Lounge.

Tec, I want to know why you posted your topic here, rather than in "Living."
Are you asking what women want from a man, sexually? That question would be fitting to this particular forum. Or are you asking for something that goes beyond mattress dancing? Either way, there will be no one answer as you must know.

Am I incorrect in thinking that what you really want to know is "how did I get into bad graces, and how do I make amends?" I think I might have something to post, if I know what the real question is.

Cardinal sin of relationships: assuming that current behavior will change from dating into relationships, engagement, and marriage.

Example:

Man and woman are dating. She notices he doesn't pick up after himself. They fall in love and get married. Later, woman constantly harps on man for not picking up after himself. Who the hell did she marry? Did she marry a man who picked up after himself? No. She did not. She also did not marry a man who puts the toilet seat down or is willing to stop seeing his friends because she tells him he can't and has to stay in and help her knit boots for her cat. It's because they assume behavior patterns change once in a relationship. They don't. You bridge the gap between the two of you with compromise, not by changing who people are.

Example 2:

Man and woman are dating. He notices she has lots of male friends. They fall in love and get married. Later, man starts getting pissed off that his wife has a lot of male friends. Who the hell did he marry? Did he marry a woman who had nothing but female friends? No. He did not. He also did not marry a woman who acted like his personal chef, chauffeur, maid, and prostitute, yet he will eventually wonder why she's not cooking, driving, cleaning, and putting out. It's because they assume behavior patterns change once in a relationship. They don't. You bridge the gap between the two of you with compromise, not by changing who people are.

They're stereotypes, yes, but they're extremely popular.

If you don't like a certain quality about someone now, assume they will be like that forever, and don't get with them permanently if you don't like it- or, see how attached they are to those behaviors. For the right person, people are generally willing to bend quite a bit to accommodate the others' wishes... but you can't wait until you're already in a committed relationship before springing those things on them.

$0.04

I put this in sexuality, because most relationships actually involve sex to one degree or another, and by placing it here a back and forth of male input is possible (clarification). And truth be told I really didnt make the thread for anything other than its stated purpose, as I am well aware what caused my relationship breakdown (for the most part), and have no desire to get it back. I had no alterior motive I am aware of, short of perhaps gaining more insight into women, which I never think of as a bad thing. As for the real question...Its in the OP, but a refresher might be helpful:


Ladies, what makes you happy in a relationship, what do you look for in a man?

What I love about my husband (among many other things) is his ability to engage with me intellectually and physically, coupled with his ability to function completely on his own. He is not an attention whore or insecure in any way that affects me. Emotional stability, sense of humor, willingness to wrestle with me on a weekend afternoon, a real commitment to equality in the relationship (we split all our chores down the middle... and YES, picking up after yourself like an adult is a *very* important skill for both genders to develop), and a lack of need to act macho, manly, muscly, arrogant, all-knowing, and/or the world's funniest/flirtiest/strongest man are essential to my respect for and interest in my husband.

Did I also mention that he has the most beautiful eyes in the world? :) And he never withholds physical affection. Ever. I always know that I am loved.

The reason this thread got out of control is that asking women what they want in men is not particulaly useful.

When I was in my 20s I'd see Cosmo articles or Oprah shows in which women complain about the men they've been dating and describe that kind of men they'd like to meet. These things were a temporary ego boost because I generally fit the description: I had a steady job, a car, I didn't live with my parents, I would call when I said I would, I did not abuse achohol or drugs.

But when attempting to date women on real life, I found out that these qualities didn't really matter. In fact, guys who fit the description of what women DON'T were more likely to get dates & girlfriends easily. One magazine article I saw expressed the dicotomy quite well: "No Woman Wants a Sleep-Around Guy." This makes as much sense as "no one buys best sellers." If no woman wants him, then how can be be a sleep-around guy?

I've noticed that this section doesn't have the endless "nice guy vs. jerks" discussions that fill up other relationship forums, I don't want to start one now. But I will say that that for both genders, what they think they want intellectually is not the same what actually triggers romantic/sexual interest.

I'm so jealous!! Dont you have an older unmarried sister abaya!! :confused: God you are just the most adorable woman........

Well, I dunno, I married the one that matched what I wanted intellectually and who also triggered me romantically/sexually. Isn't that what marriage is about? :orly:

Oh, and sorry Dave, I'm an only child. :)

/me's hopes are dashed, and contemplates suicide........until /me realizes that there are over 3 billion women on the planet, and maybe half are of the appropriate age, and of that perhaps half are actually intelligent & attractive, and of that maybe half are actually compatible. Damn that leaves 187,000,000 women??? :)

You're lucky. For me, attractive, sexy, intelligent, available, AND interested in me were mutually exclusive qualities.

Well, intelligent and attractive are two separate qualities. So the number of women of appropriate age who posess both them is less than half. Then subract those who are married or in relationships. And of those who are left who are not in relationships, subract those who are too emotioanlly messed up to be in relationships. And then cross off those who are into short guys if you are tall, or have some other requirement for men that you don't fit.

Still, after doing all that math, I figured there was still someone out there for me. I just hoped she didn't live in Madagascar.

One never knows. Incidentally, the love of my life (my husband) :D spent the first 22 years of his life in Lebanon... not exactly Madagascar, but still pretty damn far away from Seattle (my hometown). We met in grad school, when he moved to the US to do his Master's, and I came to the same school to do my PhD. Go figure, it was like we'd known each other our whole lives.

Remain open to all possibilities, and you never know what you'll end up with. :)

ok Im going to add my two cents here, for whatever its worth

What does Shannon want in a man?

I guess I am unlike some here…I really don’t care if my tweezers are used as tools….hell I use them that way myself hehehehe We seem to have shower handles that start to spin freely on themselves…Im the first one to grab my tweezers to pry off the cover to get to the screw to screw them back in (though I DO use a screwdriver for that…and I use the appropriate one for the screw type :p ) Dave is the first one to grab his beard trimmer when my pelvic area needs de fuzzing so I can shave and not go thru 3 razor blades doing it.

I could care less if he gets undressed in the living room, bedroom or basement…the clothes make their way to the laundry basket sometime within the next 24 hours (and he does it himself). I on the other hand am famous for getting undressed in the bathroom and leaving piles of thongs and socks for days in the bathroom floor before I remember to pick them up and carry them to the laundry basket.

What I care about are things like


Dave walks in from work after sitting in traffic for 45 minutes in August with no air conditioning….I follow him to the bedroom and lay on the bed while he changes into cooler clothes and don’t smother him as soon as he walks in the door..because I know the last thing I want when Im hot is somebody crawling all over me playing kissy face or trying to discuss who is going to cook dinner. He also knows I will have a glass chilling in the freezer for his crown and coke

I walk in from work and he knows I’ve had a hell of a day….I’ve either had a hectic day at work, something on TFP has pissed me off, something has gone wrong on one of my boards…he knows without me having to ask, to leave me alone and let me chill (and brings me a glass of iced tea)

He knows the days I just don’t feel like cooking dinner and does it without me saying a word.

We both understand and do not tolerate “calling in sick” when we are not. If we want a day off, we call our respective bosses and say…Im taking a vacation day today.

We both know that if someone asks us to do something on a work nite, it BETTER be a special thing for us to go out. In the same vain, we do not accept invitations to do things without discussing it with each other first.

If he wants to buy something and I say we don’t have the money right then, he is not trying to figure out how to rob Peter to pay Paul….we budget whatever it is in and get it when we can.

We both clearly know that if one asks if something is wrong…the other person is going to get an answer….and not some “no, Im fine” kind of thing. If we were mind readers we’d be rich and quitting our day jobs. The answer may be, yes something is wrong and it has nothing to do with you and I don’t want to talk about it right now (which is usually the case because in 4 years we have never had one fight or disagreement on anything, not even toilet seats or toothpaste tubes)

He knows I will kill him if he spends money on fresh flowers for me, I see it as a huge waste, he knows he’ll get smoochies galore if he brings me home beef jerky or a pack of reeses. I surprise him with things like meeting him at the airport when he’s come back from “wherever” or arranging to be home when he gets there if he has his car at the airport, and he knows clean sheets will be on the bed waiting to be dirtied.

We never leave the house in the morning for work with out a hug and a real kiss and “I love you, drive safe”

If one of us (and yes he does say it occasionally) says “im not in the mood” the other does not take it personally and is just as happy to snuggle

We do not embarrass each other in public

We do do not trash each others families

We both make our lunches together

If one of us is sick, the other does the best of their ability to take care of the them and their responsibilities. As much as I HATE taking out the garbage, when his neck is acting up I would never think to ask him to do it, or to complain about it.

He has no problem buying feminine hygiene products for me. He has no problem stopping by the store on the way home from work for something we may need…never complains about it.

I could keep going but you’d get bored so I wont. I guess I could have just said, “I expect my man to be as respectful to me and my emotions and my characteristics as I am to his” and that might have said it in a succinct way….but then I couldn’t have bragged that Dave is every single solitary thing I want in a man, and trust me I know…I lived for 16 years with a man that wasn’t.

Great post Shani. It sounds like you and Dave are very mindful and considerate of how to treat each other!

Oh, you can keep going. Dave is a a fantastic guy (which I knew already), and your writing shows your love for him beautifully.

You're so lucky.

I think all women want respect, and it is key to any relationship's success. If you respect your partner, communicating in a clear way is an easy process.

These topics get out of control because we generalize what a group wants and then the individuals who don't fit into that group begin to give their responses. If a woman started a similar thread and I replied with something like: "I don't want a woman who's ever worked at Outback Steakhouse" then a woman who has worked at Outback steakhouse will reply in a heated manner and someone else will respond to her in a heated manner stating that I was only talking about myself and not all men and then another woman would respond and so on and so on and so on...

What I find humorous is every time we have a thread like this we have to have the: "I/He/She don't/doesn't speak for all men/women/chickens" responses and talks. Oh, yeah, and the if-you-don't-like-what-you-see-use-the-back-button talk has to be reiterated as well.


This is true for everyone, I think. But does it get you a boyfriend or girlfriend? I can respect Gina Gershon all I want, but that alone won't make me her boyfriend.

Hey Shani, great post. :) I was just posting over in the other "relationship" thread and realized I was doing the same thing... talking about how ktspktsp and I respect each other. I don't know if that's what most women consciously want, but hey, both he and I live by it and wouldn't have married each other without it, so it's key for our happiness as a couple. It sets the tone for pretty much everything for us.

And does respect get you a girlfriend/boyfriend? Well, if it's the right kind of person to be with, yeah I think it does. If it's someone you just want to fuck and be done with shortly, well respect doesn't really factor in so much. But I think the people worth being with are the ones who care as much about respect as their prospective partners.

I, for one, found Midnight's post informative. I think part of the reason we date is to find out what we can and what we can't tolerate in people. I do think that her post is slightly over-reactive to a specific person / specific persons in her past, but we ALL do that. We all date someone who has quality X, and swear we never will again.

Men always say that women don't want the things they say they want. Generally, I think we do... there are just other things we want to that we either don't realise we want, or don't want to say we want. The other problem is that the people we are attracted to are not necessarily the people we are happy with long term. In other words, we want someone who can kiss and cuddle with, but we're attracted to the guy who is never available (men do the same by the way, they want an intelligent woman but are blinded by the fluffy girl with the fit body). Hopefully, we grasp some emotional maturity as we grow up and learn to be patient and observe people with some objectivity rather than being blinded by sheer emotion.

To answer Tec's question - I really desire a man who is thinking about me, and shows it in subtle ways like picking up on the fact that I hint that I might not like pickles, then at a later date reminding the server at a restaurant not to put pickles in my burger because I don't like them... or remembering that I like a certain band, and buying their new CD for me 5 months later when it gets released. Or noticing that I don't like dishes to be left unwashed overnight, and that I always like to leave the kitchen spotless... and making an effort not to make a mess if he goes in late at night to make some toast for himself. It IS the thought that counts, for me at least. If a man is showing the effort to at least try to be considerate and thoughtful, that goes a long way in my book.

They rarely do in this. When I first sort of 'figured it out' I mentioned this in a group of friends (back in college) and most of the girls said I was wrong. Then after one of them who told me how wrong I was came to me and told me how right I was but she didn't want to let the other guys there know its true.

To put it in a nutshell doing what a woman says she wants is a recipe for failure.

Sorry I cant agree with that....Im a woman who means what she says....failure only comes when the other person refuses to believe I meant whatever I said

Really.... What you wrote is essentially a twist of the "women don't like nice guys" discussion that goes on endlessley at other places where dating is discussed.

This was contraversial in the 80s/early 90s, but it seems to be pretty widely accepted now.

As I've said elsewhere, women and men are diverse enough almost any statemant that starts with "all women" or "all men" is incorrect. When someone writes that there is a big difference what many women say they want in men, and what they respond to romantically/sexually, that means that with some women, there is not a big difference.

Why would anyone WANT to be with someone who didn't mean what she/he said? I mean, talk about culling out the people you should be rejecting... that's not my idea of someone I'd like to marry (nor did I marry someone like that). :) I'd like to think that NO ONE should marry those people; their inconsistency is manipulative and annoying, and by marrying them, you are validating their behavior. :p

The first thing I want to say is that I find this thread hilarious for a few reasons, but I don't want to get into it now.


People so frequently talk about ideal qualities, what they need, what they want, what they can do without, but in reality, most of it doesn't matter.

I used to think I would only want to be with someone who looked and acted certain ways, and that got me nowhere; as I grew up I realized that not only was that a superficial way of thinking, but that there were plenty of attractive people who didn't fit that mold. I moved on, but still thought that I could only be with someone who thought like me; that got me nowhere and I once again found myself attracted to people who didn't fit that mold and discarded it. I only recently managed to cast off the idea that I would have to be with someone who shared my philosophical and religious views, and not artificially restricting myself once again proved to be the way to go.

I still have one ideal, but it's just something I hope for rather than a criterion that must be met: if I end up settling down and getting married, I want to marry a woman who's smarter than me.
I guarantee it's the kind of guy who typically lives in his parents' basement that's the problem, not the actual location.

I'm really glad you're back.

I have an issue with this statement. I understand what you mean, but I think that the attitude that a lot of people have is warped; relationships shouldn't be a compromise or a competition. When not for reproduction, sex shouldn't be a reward, and withholding it shouldn't be a punishment. At the simplest level, it's the mutual fulfillment of a physical desire; in a relationship, it's not only that but a way to deepen the emotional bond by pleasing each other.

For shampooing the carpet instead of doing something fun, it seems more fitting to me if she had gone out of her way to cook his favorite meal, or treated him to something special.

I've said it before and I'll say it again now. The reason "nice guys" finish last is because that's all they have. If I tell a girl she should meet one of my friends and when she asks him why I said that he replies "I'm a nice guy," it means that it's hi sonly redeeming characteristic; he probably has a one-dimensional personality, is willing to be her doormat, will do anything for her, but won't do anything more. The way for relationships to work is for the partners to see each other as equals, not for one to put the other on a pedestal.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Sex is 100% biology. Its one of our most privative retained behaviors, logic plays very little to no role in it. Now perhaps I didn't state it correctly but if a man acts like most women SAY a man should act, most women will not be attracted to that man. Its not based on logic, its that primitive part of the female brain that says 'he is too willing to please, your children need to be stronger'. In the long run I think it makes most women happier to be with that kind of man, since that basic primitive need is satisfied. I think some men get so hung up on what women want, and what they can do to please women, that they forget that women should want them and please them as well, and in the end neither are happy.

Thats partly true, but I think it not quite accurate.

Its not that women don't like nice guys, as much as women like strong guys.

What women don't like are guys who are over attentive. Do everything they want and they will assume they can get someone better.

I'm not really going to disagree with you here. I've watched the shows on Discovery channel. :p

But do you suppose this is still true once a woman has passed child-bearing age? I tend to think not. Once the urge to reproduce has passed, we look more for the qualities that are not biologically motivated.

Which might explain why men tend to continue to be inclined toward the traits in women that indicate fertility even as they age. Being that they are capable of producing active sperm well past the age that most women remain fertile.

I'm not sure about that, but its possible. From an evolutionary stand point, once you are past child bearing age, what you do is irrelevant unless it impacts the lives of your existing offspring. What this means is that there isn't evolutionary pressure to evolve new behaviors past child bearing age. There are some very interesting evolutionary possibilities with this and our now increased life expectancy, but I think this goes a bit beyond the scope of what makes women happy, or what they want from men.

What I do think happens to women as they get older is as the hormones calm down it leaves more room for logic and wisdom to take over. Though that being said, I'm still not sure about it. Its quite possible that its a trait that remains, at least in some, even after its 'usefulness' in biologic terms is gone.

Ok, I finally made my list. We're all different, bla bla bla. If my "wish list" sounds like I am describing a family man, that is because I have been married for 12 years. Think of it as a list of things I have and appreciate, rather than a list of demands. If it sounds like I like being spoiled and pampered, I do. I adore it. But I also enjoy spoiling and pampering him, too.

Ok, in no particular order, what I want in a man:

I like romance. flowers, chocolate, opening doors, slow dancing, snuggling, backrubs, footrubs, putting his jacket over my shoulders if he thinks I am cold. All those things make my heart go pitter patter.

A man who knows that if I try to toss him onto the floor or the bed, I am supposed to win. I am pretty small, almost 5.2", and know full well that I am not much of a physical match for a 6-foot man. Besides, I am probably trying to jump his bones.

A man who knows more about cars than I do and can either fix them, or knows what to tell the mechanic. I am clueless.

Someone who likes kids (we have three) and is not afraid of changing a diaper, or feeding or bathing a small child.

Takes responsibility running the household with me, including doing chores, without acting like he is doing me a favor. I don't act like I am doing him a favor every time I go to work and pay some bills.

I enjoy someone who likes sitting on the porch, listening to the rain. Someone who enjoys watching sunsets, and laying on a blanket in the yard after dark, watching the stars.

I want someone who is fun, playful, kind, has a sense of humor, can make me laugh.

Someone who knows when to make me laugh, when to run me a bath, when to make me chicken soup, or just hold me. (and I know you don't learn this overnight)

Someone who is supporting, loving, does not withhold physical or verbal affection. I also want monogamy and fidelity. That is what works for me.

I would rather be loved and wanted, not needed. Don't get me wrong. It is nice to feel needed sometimes. But in general I would rather be "chosen" because he actually enjoys my company... instead of just, well, "there to do everything he can't do / doesn't feel like doing".

Be still my fluttering heart (and tummy) when a man can cook. Even better if he can also appreciate my cooking.

I prefer a man with some degree of confidence, but not too cocky and definitely not bossy. And someone who can communicate his needs/wants...and differentiate between his needs and his wants. The "needs" of your family should come before your "wants", just as your "needs" should come before your family's "wants." There has to be balance.

I appreciate a man who starts dinner when he gets home from work a couple of hours before I do.
I also appreciate a man who has a bubble bath ready for me in the winter, if he arrives home from work before I do.

A man who understands that I am a power tool junkie, and does not complain about it. And I will not complain if he does not know how to use them.

Someone who calls when he say he will. Who shows up when he says he will. Who will call if he is running very late, so I don't worry about him.

A romantic or sexy text message from time to time melts my heart. But don't call every free minute you have to check up on me. It's too needy.

I prefer for someone to ask me before committing us to social plans.

Leave the damn phone out of the bedroom unless you are sleeping. I'm afraid this one is a must.

I want someone who is a bit exciting or interesting. Even though I admit that I am probably a little boring.

Someoene who is either friendly or at least respectful towards other people. I pay attention to how a man treats others. Because if he is a jerk to others, odds are that he will treat me that way eventually.

A nice smelling man can make me swoon. I love mens' colognes and aftershaves. Mmmm.

I love a fireplace, but I suck at building a fire. I can't stress enough how much I appreciate a man who can build one, and keep it going.

I love having someone who takes care of me when I am sick. and lets me take care of him when he is sick. I am not just talking about bringing the advil. When I was in a car accident this summer, I was stuck in bed, loopy on pain meds. My husband ran interference for me with the insurance companies and such. Considering he was overseas in a different time zone, that meant late night emails and phone calls for him (when he was able to use the phones), which cut into his sleep a bit. And I would have done the same for him.

Ok. The End.

Not this is what I wanted to see in here, very insightful for those of us with a penis. Pay attention to the input the wonderful women of TFP are giving you in here...you will at the very least, get laid more.

More importantly, you may make someone happy, and by extention yourself.

Well.. I think this goes for both sexes - ultimately, we just want to be with someone we respect. This can mean anything from financial independence to corporate power to a poetic soul, depending on what turns you on.

I respect a guy who respects me and doesn't ask me to change (compromise is ok) and understands what's important to me. I can't really give a laundry list of stuff (like proper gifts or sexual protocol) because all that is trivial and can be learned during the course of the relationship.

Anyway tec, you should be dating women that enrich your life - if you care about her and are not a complete dunce/bad listener/self-absorbed asshole, everything else will fall into place.

You know how the song goes... R-E-S-P-E-C-T, find out what it means to me.

Heh....Though I am certainly enjoying, and absorbing what you ladies are placing here for our education, somehow I dont think my own dating needs are all that relevant to the thread. I started this mainly as an archive of Data for us confused men to fall back on in times of distress, I myself have my hands far too full at this point to take dating very seriously...heh. You are however, absolutely correct in that we all should be basing relationships on enrichment of ourselves and our partner, In many ways I think the input of all the women in this thread points that out wonderfully.

tec, sorry to assume that your interest was for direct personal reasons.

Just wanted to add that I like it when my partner slaps my ass in public. Territorial PDA.
Call me an old-fashioned animal .
:thumbsup:

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhit.

Everybody knows chicks can't resist Van Halen.

No offense, but I can't think of many men who would want to be with someone with such stringent requirements of them. You have basically a long list of "don't do this," and "don't do that," and your expectations are WAY high of us. Sometimes I forget to put the toilet seat down. Sometimes I feel like crap and just want to put stuff down on the floor. And often if I'm told something only once, I'll forget it. And you know what, maybe I'm going out on a limb, but I doubt many women would be able to tolerate your requirements either. So don't be disenchanted with us, because nobody's perfect.

Amen. All her base are belong to me.

There's a definite difference for me when looking for a guy.

If I'm looking for a guy who I want to become serious with...

- I need someone who is on the same page of control issues as me. Well, I'm ultra jealous and if my guy can't handle it, the relationship will fall apart.

-I like a guy who is goal oriented and at least planning on being realistically successful.

- I want a guy who makes me feel good about myself because I have a terrible self esteem.

- I want a guy who likes the same music that I do

- I want a guy that isn't too heavy into partying

- Great communicator, thus great sex.

- A guy who wants to have a family in the future.

- A guy who is caring and can be my best friend

If I'm looking for a fling I tend to go for "bad boys." Guys who end up being total fucking assholes.

Overall though, a guy has to be tall and not skinny. I mean, I'm not saying that I like guys who are "fat," but my boyfriend is 6'5 and was a football player, he's not a little guy.

(Note: all "you's" are meant in the general sense, though I do make a few specific references to language used in this thread)

I have to say, I find all these lists to be rather tangential to the actual issue of relationships. As MSD said, "in reality, most of it doesn't matter."

It's really quite simple when it comes down to it. First, people need to stop propagating this attitude that women are somehow "mysterious" or "special" or any other ridiculous adjective that puts women on a pedestal. Women, like men, are human beings. All human beings are complex creatures with things they like, things they dislike, and inherent contradictions. So long as there exists this attitude that men need to put in extra work to "understand women" - that women are, somehow, more complex when compared to the brutish and simple man - progress will not be made, on the individual or cultural scale. Women are not any more special or mysterious than men, and men are not any more brutish or simple than women. Putting women, as a whole, on a pedestal while castigating oneself as a "poor man," "lowly dreamer," or servant is, at best, unproductive. In reality, I think it's just plain destructive behavior if the goal is an honest relationship of equals.

That goal is ultimately what a lot of these lists boil down to by the way, despite mostly focusing on symptoms rather than causes. The specifics really aren't important. No sane person in an otherwise healthy relationship is actually going to care whether the toilet seat is left up or down. Whether cleaning duties are shared is only a symptom of greater issues and, as such, the specific point is irrelevant to creating more durable relationships. The same goes for most everything else in here. What is relevant is that all parties respect and communicate honestly with one another, that they are both willing to learn and grow from one another, and that they are not concerned with "keeping score" in their relationship. Everything else is simply a symptom of whether or not these things are true.

If you want women to be mysterious, keep telling yourself that they are. If you want a productive relationship, on the other hand, it's helpful to replace this binary view of the mysterious woman and the poor, confused, lowly man with a more equal worldview that is fully respectful to both sexes.

(slams on the breaks, kicks you out of the car) "Baby, I was talking to my MOTHER... MOTHER... not some "sleazy hoe", as you so eloquently put it."

Jealously is such a kill-you-dead-twice personal self-esteem / self-worth issue and IMHO should never be put on someone else.

Which is why I said I need someone who will make me feel good about myself. And is exactly why I drive my boyfriend nuts sometimes.

I've tried for 3 years and it's gotten a lot better. Luckily I found someone who can handle it.

how about you go back and read what I wrote? I didnt ask you to put up with what I "require" I stated, and quite clearly I thought, that I was alone and fine with that.

I'm just gonna take a stab at this - it sounds like the beef over Midnight's list directly relates to tec's original point. There are some things about women that baffle men (like our behavior around that time of month...) and it seems that women can be a lot more introspective than men (our habit of noting things you may do only to bring them up a month later). It HAPPENS even in the tightest of relationships. Hence the entire section of the bookstore devoted to relations between the sexes.

If the men out there can explain why Sex in the City is such a great show, please stand up (the answer is not "shoes").

Point being, there are some fundamental differences in how our brains are wired.

Midnight's list should be taken with a grain of salt. Anyone who takes it as a literal make-or-break set of rules must have missed the underlying point.

I assume what Midnight is saying (in order) is that it's very NICE when our mate ...

1.) Respects and takes care of himself (job/grooming/debt)

2.) Likes to spend time with us after work so we can enjoy each other's company (winding down)

3.) Is willing to work out a compromise if something is important to us (vacuum)

4.) Allows us to be ourselves as we allow him to be himself (tupperware/ball game)

5.) Respects our stuff (grooming implements)

6.) Is considerate of our shared space and also notices when we have thoughtfully made a special place for his shoes and coat so he can always find them and doesn't trip over stuff in the dark hallway.

I don't think that's too much to ask and the list works both ways. Do you want to date some woman who refuses to get a job/shower, won't spend time with you, doesn't respect your needs/interests/records/golf clubs/special snacky food/tv programs/weekly poker game/baseball card collection/desire to own a Wii, PS3 AND XBox 360 etc., and is a slob that always leaves a mess?????

Of course there are ups and downs and sometimes you want to slob about cuz you're tired after a long workday (sometimes we do too) - we respect that. Hell, I'll even respect your period of unemployment cuz I want you to find a job you enjoy ... but there are also shitteous moochy people (of both sexes) out there that never grasp the concept of partnership and cohabitation. Most of the guys on this board are nice and intelligent - if you occasionally practice the things on the list, you've got nothing to complain about.

If you don't... well, by all means keep bitching about unreasonable expectations! I wish more of the sucky guys I've dated were up front about their inability to handle a serious relationship!

Anyway, it sounds like the animosity stems from a communication problem (huh, how novel) - e.g. how Midnight phrased it - and not what's actually on the list...

...which I feel demonstrates the reason tec started this thread in the first place - to forge better communication between the sexes.

So don't hate, appreciate.

Thank you xxxafterglow. YOU get it. *hug*

Hey Secret,

Women and men are different. It's not that we're more "special" or "mysterious" but we DO think differently and have different needs. That's the point of this thread.

By the way, I flush my used tampons and wrap my pads so you don't have to see a bloody menstrual mess all over the bathroom or in the trash. I appreciate it when you put the seat down because I don't want to look at the urine-splashed rim as I'm about to take a seat. It's not some grand battle-of-the-sexes thing. It's courtesy, man!

If you want a productive (hetero) relationship, you learn what makes your partner tick - including the nuances of the female sex (err... like the fact that we sit to pee - do you like to sit on a urine-y toilet when you take a monster shit?).

Me want procreate. Me want woman who pretty.

What hard about that?

This is just sad.
While I wouldn't advocate finding someone to make you feel shitty, how you feel about yourself must come from within. It's something to be discovered and when done so, embraced.
We are born alone, we die alone. We are all we have beginning to end and the only person we HAVE to live with that whole time....is ourself.



Not really...that's why pick-up artists are called "pick-up artists". I know some who need to just STFU and do what they do best. I also know people I could talk to for hours but really doubt they'd be great in bed. Once or twice, that was proven the case.


Bottom line, guys: Respect and acceptance. Looks change, although initially, we all want the eyes to have a treat; but what is one woman's eye candy is another's nightmare.

Yes, they think differently, but it's not as huge of a difference as society likes to make out. Also, it's more of a gender issue (masculine vs. feminine) as opposed to a sex issue (male vs. female). And yes, it's important to learn "what makes your partner tick." I'd think not making blind assumptions based on their sex would be part of that. Not all men are inconsiderate slobs, and not all women are dainty and more "in tune," or introspective as you put it earlier. That's the main issue I take with this thread. There is no special skill required to communicate with women, you just communicate with them period.

Eh - sometimes you care enough about someone to deal with their jealousy issues... and most people in a healthy relationship eventually get over it, but ngdawg is right to point out that it's a personal journey.

Sorry onodrim, I've gotta play the biology card. Our bodies are different, our brains are different. I don't think anyone in this thread is promoting archaic gender tropes but I also think it's a disservice to ignore our differences and shunt us all under the "everybody communicate, everybody happy!" umbrella.

We live in a society that promotes gender differentiation, stereotypes, etc. Whether you like it or not, we are biologically and socially conditioned to be different. There isn't a special skill required to communicate - that's what we were trying to do here.

Which is exactly the point...none of these specific issues have any meaning whatsoever, and they distract from what's actually important. Communicate and be courteous and the rest tends to fall into place. My relationship with onodrim - going on 8 years - didn't get where it is by assuming men and women are fundamentally different.

I made a point to use language that was already in this thread. I didn't make up the idea of calling men lowly, confused, poor, or servants - these are all characterizations that existed in this thread before I responded. "Women and men are different" is only accurate insofar as people are different, which is again exactly the point I was making. You asked "If the men out there can explain why Sex in the City is such a great show, please stand up (the answer is not "shoes")." Thing is, I don't know many women who can answer that. In fact, most women I know significantly dislike the show. Generalizing between men and women creates an "us vs them" mentality that is not conducive to a healthy relationship or good communication. It creates a paradigm for relationships that there will always be conflict and always be misunderstanding. Throw out the men vs women mentality and then real communication can take place. Communication which isn't based on any assumptions regarding how one thinks or ought to think because of what genitalia they have.

EDIT: heh, see? Onodrim and I - female and male - think pretty much the same on this issue. I didn't even know she was responding :p