Secret,

I just have to disagree with you. We're on a messageboard so we're limited in communication but please don't assume that I'm speaking on behalf of all women. Please don't assume that Midnight is speaking on behalf of all women, either.

I don't think you're getting that we're not playing the "us vs them" game, we're playing the "this is my world, here's what it's like" game.

While Sex and the City isn't for all women, it's geared TOWARDS women, it's about women and their issues. I was merely pointing out that our society crafts and promotes gender differences and it's pretty naive to act ignorant of this fact when you're talking about gender relations.

Men will never fully understand what it's like to be a woman (physically, socially, emotionally) and vice versa. That's why we have to talk.

And I really don't think the participants in this thread are taking notes for the almighty bible to understanding the sexes. We're just opening lines for communication and throwing out ideas.

Tec asked the question and women responded. And then a couple women agreed and a couple guys took offense. Tell me again about how we're all the same.

Men and women are biologically different. Men and women are socialized differently. Ergo, differences. That's all I can say, take it or leave it.

EDIT: I'm not trying to attack you - I suppose I'm defending my right to be a woman (and different from a man) in all its contexts. PS I also love Metric so props. One of the last cds I ever bought.
EDIT2: HA HA, I also really love PEACHES. Pff you guys.

I'm well aware of the fact that it's sad. I've dealt with it for awhile now. My feelings are getting better, it's helped that I have someone who I truly know loves me and thinks I'm the most beautiful person in the world. I don't understand why people are making comments about this. I'm not dumb. I am fully aware that I have a problem and that yes, it is rather sad.

And, any sexual experience is better with communication. I'm not speaking about pick up lines, I'm not talking about being suave, eloquent or wordy. I'm talking about being able to express what you feel and what you want to say.

I'm not being insulting when I say this because I'm participating in something I find pointless, but these types of threads are pointless.

They're pointless because there are certain types of people who will never ever ever be with other certain types of people. Women and men are all alike in that they're all predictable in that they all want someone to want them. Lists or books or websites or infomercials or anything else that tries to tell you how to get more women or men are scams and con jobs. The reality is that we cannot explain why we find certain people attractive while there are those to whom we would never give the time of day.

No amount of "Don't-piss-in-the-sink" lists will change that, regardless of how witty or wise we think them.

I've been attracted to such varieties of women that one would be hard pressed to find any commonality between them. What it comes down to is that we're all looking for some type of validity that we'd be accepted by those out of our leagues if only we had the magic passwords.

Face it, if you are constantly attracting the wrong type of person to the point where you need a list of what the other sex wants, then you need to figure out what is wrong with you, not the other sex.

Some people are getting something out of it, the OP for instance.

Anyway, if you find it to be a pointless thread, make like a droid they're not looking for and move along.

wouldn't that make me a stormtrooper? And aren't they always around where they're not wanted?

I said it was pointless, I didn't say it wasn't interesting.

And if he was gone tomorrow?
It shouldn't be 'help', it should be a result. Yes, people who love us make us feel valued(it's the nature of humans to desire being a part of something) , but ultimately, it is the value we place on ourselves that will matter and carry us through and ultimately, bring love into our lives. Sometimes we need someone to help us see this-but we should never only see ourselves through another's eyes.
"I am of value not because he says so, but because I am worthy of being valuable to others."
I hope you find that. Really.

I must take issue with your opinion here, only in that while it may indeed be pointless to you, it is not pointless to others. Personally, I do not find any study of human psycology pointless, and am particularly fascinated right now with the male/female disconnect. But this of course is my own opinion...the difference is that I state it as such, tends to make things less confrontational, and me seem somewhat less an asshole.

Stormtrooper: Let me see your identification.
Obi-Wan: [with a small wave of his hand] You don't need to see his identification.
Stormtrooper: We don't need to see his identification.
Obi-Wan: These aren't the droids you're looking for.
Stormtrooper: These aren't the droids we're looking for.
Obi-Wan: He can go about his business.
Stormtrooper: You can go about your business.
Obi-Wan: Move along.
Stormtrooper: Move along... move along.

Thanks IMDB.

2 points for an around the back insult! We find what we want to find in our communications with people. If we seek to be insulted, we'll be insulted. I can't control those reactions in others.

I can however, offer my opinion, which is what I'm doing. I can't promise that I'll shave my head and buy a tambourine. I apologize if you find my style confrontational. it's not my intent. You don't like my style of posting. That's fine.


*****EDIT***** Just so you all know, tecoyah and I are joking around here. Don't get alarmed. We can have fun here, you know.

damn.

Well, obviously I respect that you have that opinion, but my own life experiences with women have proved to me that, ultimately, women and men are equally complicated, equally difficult to understand, and require the exact same level of communication. Perhaps going into a relationship a man and woman may have different "worlds," but my point is that we choose whether or not to uphold that or break it down. When communication transcends male vs female, it leads to understanding and defining one another as people, and allows us to discover that we're really not as different as we tend to think.

Women are just as capable of being slobs, or liking sex, as men are. Throughout history, people have traditionally placed women on pedestals and highlighted differences. As insane as it sounds for us to hear him say it, when Mahmoud Ahmadinejad claims that women are highly respected in Iran, he actually believes this. Oppressive cultures that require women to cover themselves up often do so because of misguided views regarding the power, mystery, and purity of womanhood. Claiming that women are cleaner, more courteous, more sensitive, or any of those other things strikes me as a slightly less offensive, more Western version of these same types of attitudes. Women in the West, because of the "differences" that we are taught as truths, are often afraid to vocalize their sexual fantasies and desires to their partner, because even in the West, women are not supposed to be as kinky or as sexual as men are. Not long ago, the president of Harvard essentially claimed that women were less involved in math and sciences because they're simply not designed that way. Here, again, we have this attitude that men and women "think differently."

We create our own truths and our own realities. We choose the nature of our relationships. We can continue to base our communication on preconceived notions about how we're "different," or we can move beyond that and learn to respect one another as individuals who are all equally capable of being clean, messy, sexual, caring, indifferent, or any other quality.

Anyway, glad to know we have similar tastes in music ;)

Joking?....JOKING!


Of course you know....This means Wa.....Aw, shit...dropped my hat

Ya know, I really hate to do this, but....
I gotta toss in the age card. Sorry, dude.
We're not all that 'complicated'. We are, in many ways, different-masculine to feminine as Ono put it. F'rinstance...
Men will never EVER experience monthly cramps and hormonal fluctuations. They won't even get them if their transexual. Men have a higher concentration of testosterone than women-that's a fact. And testosterone helps the libido, or lack thereof. Hormones affect behavior. Physiologically, the female brain is different in size, weight and distribution of function than the male brain.
Your 'experience' is defined as, well...your experience, which is Ono, school, mom and friends. At the risk of sounding like the female version of a pig, I have had more than my fair share of lovers (hate that word, really) and most of my friends, including two of my very best friends, are male. One is a sports freak, not very wordy; the other is a hopeless romantic who couldn't tell a Pittsburgh Steeler from a NASCAR Chevy. But they are both very very male. My one female best bud is more female than I am in many ways(I don't have anything in common with the mall-hopping soccer-mom types, which she is not).
My point? We are very different in many ways, not just culturally based. There are commonalities, yes, but if everything was common, you'd be dating a guy. But you're not and you're not because of the differences between you and yours, despite what you have 'in common'(including answering similarly, which you did because of the attractions that got you where you are now, not because everyone is not different).
Communication is great and very important, but it's not the be-all, end-all. As I said before, 'acceptance' matters and that includes the possible acceptance that there will always be inherent differences that no amount of open dialogue is going to change. Sometimes, things just are nods to Shani

This can be taken to politics so easily and you know it.

And....

It's so refreshing to finally hear one of your kind admit defeat.

Thanks Ng - you really clarified the point I was trying to make.

Hon, that wasn't defeat, that was bragging!

Maybe Jesus inadverdently proved it.... :-P

Thanks for your concern.

Since you tossed it out there, I have to respond - Perhaps it is because of your age that you're more likely to defend the societal values you were raised with and are less willing to see things from another perspective. My parents and their generation, who are about the same age as you, are, generally speaking, more sexist than my generation. Yet my parents, and your generation, are less sexist than your parents generation. As we understand more about the world around us, thoughts and ideas change, there is a natural evolution in thought. Simply being older doesn't necessarily make you "more right."

I think you misunderstand my usage of those terms. I mean them as personality traits, not physiological facts such as male/female. A man can be very feminine and a woman can be very masculine.

Of course there are physiological differences between men and women, no one, myself included, is arguing that on a genetic level both sexes are 100% identical. And yes, Testosterone and hormones affect behavior, but both men and women have them to varying degrees. Also, using either as an excuse for bad behavior is just, well, an excuse.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm the only girlfriend that Secret has had, but, that's just not true. Also, you don't have to be someone's "lover" to make observations about their behavior.

Again, no one is claiming that men and women are identical. And sexual attraction is an entirely different discussion. I'm not sure how that's even relevant here.

Obviously in every relationship there are things about the other person that just "are" and you have to decide if you can accept them or not. But just assuming something is the way it is "because he's a guy" and letting it go isn't accepting that person at all. It's tolerating them at best.

I think the reason that so many women in this thread, and in general, are determined to hold to the thought that they are intrinsically different than men is because they like the feeling of superiority it gives them; they want to believe that just being a women somehow makes them more special. Society makes them believe they are above men and they don't want to let that go.

It's scientific fact that women have 20% of their brain dedicated to language along, where as men have significantly less.

NG is on the money, there are differences that really can not be ignored. But every person is also different. People, are different.

One of the things I love about women so much is every one I've come across is so damn unique :)

Doesn't make me more wrong either....
That's your opinion, but yours alone. I am superior only to those inferior to me :D I do not base that on gender. ( And my kids, raised to not be gender-biased, are, as young teens, very much so. This drag-racing, bike riding mom is trying to change that).
Actually, I was raised to toss a mean football, do autobody work and watch the KC Chiefs play. I cook a little, clean even less. Your assumptions are off the mark, again, based on your own observations in your world.
And, actually, sexuality/attraction is the basis of the thread-it's the understanding of our own innate and distinctive sexuality that's being discussed. Without sexuality, we'd be earthworms.
No one has excused any behavior based on anything. Again, your assumption is noted. Wrong, but noted.
I didn't say you were the only one anyone had, I said the 'experience' is limited-as, actually mine is because I don't plan on dying tomorrow, but the mileage on this engine is higher ;). Most of what you've stated is generationally-based assuming about how someone's been 'raised', when, in fact, you have no clue how anyone was, unless it's been discussed.
Again, you have to base your opinions on your experience. We all do. Some of us are just a tad more 'experienced'-not necessarily politically correct, to be sure, but experience forms opinions. The trick is to decipher which is worthwhile. If you can only think that an entire group is thinking a certain way because of their generation and not take into account their experiences, you only limit yourself.

I do see what your argument, but there are some things that men and women are just wired differently for, in general. That is not to say it isn't without exception, but surely the two genders needed to evolve different social behaviors to survive best. As much research has shown (according to my Communications class), women tend to internalize, while men externalize. And while, yes, generalizations are bad, some things just are different.

I do, however, agree that experiences play a very significant role.

If anything, this thread strengthens the fact that there is no "magic trick" to make you more appealing to the opposite sex in general. On the flip side, everyone wants such different things, the right person who wants everything you have to offer is out there. :thumbsup:

Wrong again - and lazy lazy LAZY assumption on your part!!!!

Third wave feminism is about celebrating differences between sex and gender and acknowledging that we are different but shouldn't be treated differently by institutions and society (jobs, pay scale, etc.). It's a TRAVESTY to pretend we aren't shaped by different experiences. At-work day-care was created initially to help WOMEN not EVERYONE.

I'm so tired of this sex-blind, colorblind PC shit. We have different biological functions. We are socialized differently. Even if we break traditional gender tropes, you, Ono, are a woman in contemporary society.

We're not carbon copies that only differ cuz one has a peen and one has a vag.

I'm not advocating that women be placed on a pedestal. That's your own prejudice right there (incidentally, why do you hate on women who feel they are special?). We're talking about the subtle differences in needs (physiological and social). I sit on a toilet. I like to pee with the seat down. I expect paid pregnancy leave. I'm gonna wear a dress when I get married.

Dunno how to make it any clearer but quit stomping on my right to acknowledge that I'm a woman who menstruates monthly, will carry a child, takes it in the pussy, has fantastic breasts and gets discriminated in the workplace!!!! That's the reality!!!!

EDIT: Society makes us think we're above men???? You're JOKING right? No female president (yet)... most CEOs are male... men still make more money in many cases for the same job.... The only way to move forward is to acknowledge that these differences exist and to do something about it. Don't deny me the fact that my experiences (and subsequently, my needs and wants) are shaped heavily by my sex.

And, many times, there are multiple "right persons". ;)
What was appealing 10 years ago to someone might be a total turn-off now and vice versa. Yes, due to experiences playing a significant role.
I think, as much as we want "different things", we all want respect and to be loved for who we are, shortcomings and all.
And there are always going to be exceptions to what you learn in class-very important to remember. I, for one, do not internalize and have the trail of dropped jaws, destroyed businesses and former friends to prove it. ;) On the other hand, both my spouse and one of my good male friends never speak their minds until they blow a gasket. In fact, I only know of one guy in my life that speaks his mind-there's also been research that suggests that men that internalize suffer heart attacks and strokes more often than women and that women's health, in general, is better because we don't internalize. (Gee, even learning things in class can be biased based on who's teaching it, maybe.)

A little "wear the world like a loose cloak" anyone? ;)

A BRIEF GUIDE TO UNDERSTANDING THE MALE ANIMAL


Maybe it is that easy.

....Ahhhh...to be 18 again....heh

Or 42. Thanks to little blue pills... the body can keep up with the mind for decades.

Trust me...way way past 42, that little pill ain't usually necessary:thumbsup:


Ah, to be able to wear a short dress again....really short...

Yes, you know you're getting old when you look at clothes you really like and say to yourself, 'I would look ridiculous in this.'

It depends on how long you've been with your partner.

I'd guess this links in with the 'how much sex after 10 years' thread but after 17 years, my wife can still get me up giving the right 'look'.

It does link, but it's more than that. Just seeing your long-term partner naked isn't enough to get you hard. She needs to give you the "look" be into it or whatever. New partners need little more than to be there for a guy to respond.

Somebody forgot to tell my husband that. LOL. 12 years and counting.

What's length of time together have to do with getting it up?
Either Jr. can or can't. If seeing your 'long term partner' nekkid isn't doing it for you, it's not because you need a little blue pill....it's probably because you've lost the desire for that longterm partner.

How long have you need with your partner?

Imagine that you and you partner have checked into a hotel and now you're in the room changing for before meeting some friends for dinner. I'm guessing that seeing her naked while she's changing her bra does not produce the same reaction as it did the first time you ever saw her take her bra off.

Jr, can, but with a long term partner, it is more likely to happen in a sexual context than a non-sexual context.

Life happens... sometimes it happens to put a damper on your sex life (in any relationship). Depends on the couple, but I think you can accomplish anything you set your mind to. Ergo, if your sex life ain't jumpin' 30 years in, do something about it (if you are so inclined).

True but in all fairness the first time she took it off with me was for sex, not going out to dinner.

I've grown up a bit now and tbh ANY female just changing to go out to dinner wouldn't do it for me, and despite the length of time I still stare at the wife.

I am not a lesbian, so my friend taking her bra off wouldn't have any affect on me. :D

I have to agree with Ustwo(mercy!)-the reason for staring at the wife shouldn't matter. If seeing her naked getting ready to go out doesn't do it for you, the flame's probably been snuffed.

While this is true for the most part....not having the "same" reaction does not mean a lesser reaction. Personally I find myself endlessly fascinated and excited regardless of the timeframe. It may be a different part of my hormonal brain that deals with it, but its still damn nice.

I suppose I should feel pity that you do not feel it.....so sorry.

Me too (well not your wife, but mine). And I can't see that changing even after 23 years.