So who uses a contraceptive sponge? Thoughts on the subject? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Terminal Frost · 03-18-2007, 04:45 PM

Ok, so I'm in a monogamous relationship with a girlfriend of one year. Both of us are STD-free. We lost our virginity to each other and have always used condoms every time we've had sex. I'm sure everyone has experienced just how difficult it can be sometimes in the heat of the moment to pause and put on that little piece of plastic. We've found some good condoms that we both really like, but it's still a hassle.

My girlfriend doesn't like the idea of hormonal birth control because of the way it affects one's body chemistry. I don't blame her at all and I am happy that she has such concern for her body. Neither of us wants children anytime soon, so relying on withdrawal or menstrual rhythm just wouldn't cut it. I felt like we were shit out of luck because the only other thing I could think of was a male pill but that has been "only a year away" since 1996.

Then it hit me like a ton of bricks: What about the sponge?! I had only heard about this on Seinfeld and in the episode the sponge was being discontinued. I had no idea that it was now available again and from what I have read about it it seems very promising. If used correctly every time it has a pretty high success rate.

Now I have two questions:

1) When they give the statistics about the sponge, do they figure that you are ejaculating inside the girl? I didn't see this specified anywhere, but it seems that if this is the case then it would even more effective if I just pulled out before I finished. Of course with a 91% success rate, it might just be worth it to finish off inside, if that is what they are counting on anyway.

2) If you have used the sponge, what are you experiences with it? It seems so great that you can put it in a few hours in advance so that when the mood finally strikes there is nothing to interrupt the moment. Is there any downside? Is it hard to put in or take out?

Thanks a lot!

politicophile · 03-18-2007, 06:00 PM

two characters

Terminal Frost · 03-18-2007, 06:36 PM

Thanks for your reply. Do you have any articles to back up your claim that the sponges are not as effective as pills and/or condoms? I don't mean to be a prick, but when considering something as important as birth control I prefer to have reliable sources.

According to http://www.youngwomenshealth.org/summarychart.html , which is a "collaboration between the Division of Adolescent & Young Adult Medicine and the Division of Gynecology at Children’s Hospital Boston," the sponge is just as effective as the male condom for typical usage. I am just trying to figure out if there is just a stigma against the sponge. It seems like such a good alternative, though I don't know anyone that has ever used one!

Cynthetiq · 03-18-2007, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terminal Frost

My girlfriend doesn't like the idea of hormonal birth control because of the way it affects one's body chemistry. I don't blame her at all and I am happy that she has such concern for her body. Neither of us wants children anytime soon, so relying on withdrawal or menstrual rhythm just wouldn't cut it. I felt like we were shit out of luck because the only other thing I could think of was a male pill but that has been "only a year away" since 1996.

My wife felt the same way about the hormonal issues.

Before we got married we agreed that we didn't want to have children. Since we did not do anything for any kind of birthcontrol for many years, I finally decided that the risk to our lifestyle was too great, I would get a vasectomy. I wanted to guarantee that one day our lifestyle wouldn't change.

She herself changed her mind for some reason when I explored vasectomy as a method of permanent birthcontrol.

She's now on a pill that has a 3 month cycle. She loves it. Recently she said,"Thank you for helping make this decision. It is much easier this way."

YMMV.

politicophile · 03-18-2007, 06:53 PM

two characters

Terminal Frost · 03-18-2007, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by politicophile

Wiki, my research friend, has some interesting things to say on this subject:

I appreciate the difficulty of having to take the time to put a condom on, but that is likely less time-consuming than wetting and inserting the sponge.

Thank you. Wikipedia states that the effectiveness of condoms under typical use ranges from 82% to 90%. Also, the main reason that I don't like condoms are not because they are difficult to put on (I've finally gotten past that) but because you have to put it on right before sex and neither of us are really crazy about the feeling of having rubber between us.

I'm really confused because it appears that condoms have roughly the same effectiveness rating of the sponge. In my personal situation the pill is out. Not only because of side-effects in the short-term (you can always just try a different brand), but because of the risks of long-term damage. I know there isn't much evidence to support this theory, but neither of us are interested in taking the risk.

Also, I still can't find any website that states whether or not test are conducted for effectiveness ratings with the man ejaculating inside of the woman (with condoms, sponges, or any other product). Am I completely off the mark, or does it not make sense that you would drastically increase your chances of not having a kid if you pull out no matter what birth control you are using?

As far as side by side comparisons of different contraceptives I would rely on my source I posted earlier rather than two seperate Wikipedia articles. It seems to me that people don't like the sponge and that a lot of people have never tried it. I thought I was going to find some answers here right away (I was stunned this hand't be covered before) so I guess I'll just go ahead and try it myself. I'll be sure to report back with my findings for you all

cadre · 03-18-2007, 07:49 PM

If she doesn't want hormones there is the IUD. You can get it hormone free. It's an implant, and she may have some issues finding a doctor that will do it but it's more than 99% effective. She should look it up and see if it's something she could handle.

eileenbunny · 03-19-2007, 08:45 PM

I've used sponges with success, but they are a bit of a pain. Leaving it in after sex for several hours is necessary and that means that your girl could have to go to work/school/wherever still wearing the thing and have the need to take it out at some point away from home. That really sucks. Also, you can't use it while your girlfriend is on her period.

I suggest a product like Conceptrol or VCF (vaginal spermicides). I've been using Conceptrol with my husband for the past 8 years and we have not had any pregnancy scares. The only problem with the stuff is that it can be messy, but hey, sex is messy anyway right? Vaginal spermicides are more effective than they used to be, so perhaps you should look in to it.

Terminal Frost · 03-19-2007, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eileenbunny

I've used sponges with success, but they are a bit of a pain. Leaving it in after sex for several hours is necessary and that means that your girl could have to go to work/school/wherever still wearing the thing and have the need to take it out at some point away from home. That really sucks. Also, you can't use it while your girlfriend is on her period.

I suggest a product like Conceptrol or VCF (vaginal spermicides). I've been using Conceptrol with my husband for the past 8 years and we have not had any pregnancy scares. The only problem with the stuff is that it can be messy, but hey, sex is messy anyway right? Vaginal spermicides are more effective than they used to be, so perhaps you should look in to it.

Thank you for the first hand account! I'm thinking that using the sponges would be more of a weekend thing than an every day thing - kind of like an extra little treat to go with a better bottle of wine. It does seem like a bit more of a production to use it, so I guess we'll just see if the benefits outweigh the troubles.

snowy · 03-19-2007, 10:15 PM

I am here because of a sponge failure.

That is enough said in my opinion.

analog · 03-20-2007, 04:27 AM

Sponges are the stupidest things in the world to use as "birth control". I'm surprised they report up to 91% success.

It's got holes in it! It's completely porous!

In my opinion, you're asking to get knocked up if you use a sponge. They're so not safe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by politicophile

A 91% success rate sounds good until you realize that means the sponge fails one time out of every nine.

This is a common, incorrect way to interpret success rate- otherwise, it would mean you get pregnant every 9 times you have sex. That is not what it means. It means that EVERY time you have sex, you have a 91% success rate. It's the same with condoms- 99% does not mean you'll risk a kid every 100th time you have sex, it means EVERY time you have sex, you have a 99% success rate.

mixedmedia · 03-20-2007, 04:54 AM

I used the Today sponge intermittently for several years and never had a problem with it. It is very easy and convenient to use. But it is true that it is not as reliable as prescription birth control.

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-20-2007, 10:34 AM

My eldest probably came around a sponge. Which is to say, if she came through it, there might be liability issues. Collection might be a problem, except that I did. Sincerely, my fellow human beings.

eileenbunny · 03-20-2007, 03:58 PM

Really if you are going to use any of these less reliable forms of birth control like the sponge, diaphragm, or vaginal spermicide you need to accept the fact that you are taking a risk. None of them are 100%, in fact the only form of birth control I know of that is 100% is abstinance. I guess you just have to weigh the risks and choose for yourself. My husband and I know that it wouldn't be the end of the world if I got pregnant, we just aren't actively trying for it. At least the OP is thinking about it before acting.

Terminal Frost · 03-20-2007, 06:25 PM

Thanks again for the responses thus far... but I still have one HUGE question that no one has addressed.

Do these companies and organizations that report failure rates count on you ejaculating inside of the woman??!! Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like it they are, then you can drastically increase your chances of using any kind of birth control AND pulling out. I've never read directions for a condom or a sponge that said "Pull out before you ejaculate!" I mean think about it, the difference in the amount of sperm in pre-ejaculate that will leak out during intercourse and the amount of sperm contained in the ejaculation must be astronomical! I find it weird that no corporate or organizational website would touch on this subject - at least not one that I have been to. So am I missing something? Do I not understand how sperm works? I'm feeling more and more confused.

Cynthetiq · 03-20-2007, 06:42 PM

It takes 1 little sperm. that's it. that's all it takes, so it doesn't matter what the percentages are, if you are having sex it is greater than zero.

All this increasing the percentages is nothing more than you not wanting to worry about if she's pregnant or not. So no matter how you slice and dice it, what you are looking for isn't anything more than peace of mind. But it really doesn't matter, you either are ready or not ready for the consequences of having sex i.e. having a baby.

Terminal Frost · 03-20-2007, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

It takes 1 little sperm. that's it. that's all it takes, so it doesn't matter what the percentages are, if you are having sex it is greater than zero.

All this increasing the percentages is nothing more than you not wanting to worry about if she's pregnant or not. So no matter how you slice and dice it, what you are looking for isn't anything more than peace of mind. But it really doesn't matter, you either are ready or not ready for the consequences of having sex i.e. having a baby.

I'm sorry but I think statistics play a vital role in the decision making process. I understand what you're saying but I think you are also dismissing my question. There is sense in thinking about things like this statistically. I know it takes one little sperm, what I am not away of is how these contraceptive companies come up with their test results. I guess this is something eles that no one has thought about before. I suppose I'd be better off e-mailing the people that do these studies.

freeload · 03-27-2007, 05:42 AM

I might be completely off, but when reading birth control statistics I believe they refer to the percentage of women not pregnant during a whole year. So 91% means 9 out of 100 women wil get pregnant during a year, not each time they have sex.

Cynthetiq · 03-27-2007, 05:49 AM

No, I'm not dismissing your question. It is just impossible to know what the statistics really mean, what variables where considered, what variables not considered, what variables showed up and unaccounted for?

So you find out what the answer is, it still doesn't change the fact that you have sex, your partner can get pregnant, and you want to have sex with the least amount of probability of pregnancy. But no matter what statistic you believe, it may not even apply to you, meaning if it is 91% (whatever that means) you still could easily be the 9%. In fact, I'd go as far to say, you have a 50% chance of being in the 91% or the 9%.

Quote:

Conceptual overview
In applying statistics to a scientific, industrial, or societal problem, one begins with a process or population to be studied. This might be a population of people in a country, of crystal grains in a rock, or of goods manufactured by a particular factory during a given period. It may instead be a process observed at various times; data collected about this kind of "population" constitute what is called a time series.

For practical reasons, rather than compiling data about an entire population, one usually instead studies a chosen subset of the population, called a sample. Data are collected about the sample in an observational or experimental setting. The data are then subjected to statistical analysis, which serves two related purposes: description and inference.

Descriptive statistics can be used to summarize the data, either numerically or graphically, to describe the sample. Basic examples of numerical descriptors include the mean and standard deviation. Graphical summarizations include various kinds of charts and graphs.
Inferential statistics is used to model patterns in the data, accounting for randomness and drawing inferences about the larger population. These inferences may take the form of answers to yes/no questions (hypothesis testing), estimates of numerical characteristics (estimation), forecasting of future observations, descriptions of association (correlation), or modeling of relationships (regression). Other modeling techniques include ANOVA, time series, and data mining.
The concept of correlation is particularly noteworthy. Statistical analysis of a data set may reveal that two variables (that is, two properties of the population under consideration) tend to vary together, as if they are connected. For example, a study of annual income and age of death among people might find that poor people tend to have shorter lives than affluent people. The two variables are said to be correlated. However, one cannot immediately infer the existence of a causal relationship between the two variables; see correlation does not imply causation. The correlated phenomena could be caused by a third, previously unconsidered phenomenon, called a lurking variable.

If the sample is representative of the population, then inferences and conclusions made from the sample can be extended to the population as a whole. A major problem lies in determining the extent to which the chosen sample is representative. Statistics offers methods to estimate and correct for randomness in the sample and in the data collection procedure, as well as methods for designing robust experiments in the first place; see experimental design.

The fundamental mathematical concept employed in understanding such randomness is probability. Mathematical statistics (also called statistical theory) is the branch of applied mathematics that uses probability theory and analysis to examine the theoretical basis of statistics.

The use of any statistical method is valid only when the system or population under consideration satisfies the basic mathematical assumptions of the method. Misuse of statistics can produce subtle but serious errors in description and interpretation — subtle in that even experienced professionals sometimes make such errors, and serious in that they may affect social policy, medical practice and the reliability of structures such as bridges and nuclear power plants.

Even when statistics is correctly applied, the results can be difficult to interpret for a non-expert. For example, the statistical significance of a trend in the data — which measures the extent to which the trend could be caused by random variation in the sample — may not agree with one's intuitive sense of its significance. The set of basic statistical skills (and skepticism) needed by people to deal with information in their everyday lives is referred to as statistical literacy.

cadre · 03-27-2007, 09:17 AM

To answer your question, I highly doubt that those statistics take into account pulling out. I've never heard of a study that did unless that was the main interest.

Can you explain why you think the sponge is so great? I think the reason you don't hear about it much is because it isn't nearly as effective as other options so not many people use it. This should be a big indicator for you that it is a bad idea. There are other options out there that are better, I think you need to do some more research.

Has your girlfriend ever been on hormones? They don't effect everyone negatively, and if she's never tried it she could be missing out on a good option for birth control.

Hektore · 03-27-2007, 11:06 AM

I am so going to find the study I read over last semster during reproductive bio. It made the claim that with very reliable menstrual cycles, a good knowledge of when ovulation is going to occur and the will to abstain during inappropriate times of the month (particularly the 5 days before and after ovulation) that "withdrawal" could have up to a 90% effectivness in preventing pregnancy. The reality of getting someone pregnant is that there are times when she just can't get pregnant even if you ejaculate inside of her. I'm not saying use it, more of a "standard" to compare other contraceptives against. I think the real lesson here is education, this is too risky a thing to guess with, read, talk to your docter, her doctor and her OB/GYN.

ItWasMe · 04-21-2007, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terminal Frost

So who uses a contraceptive sponge? Thoughts on the subject?

I think they're great,

that is, if you're trying to get pregnant. Used them 9 months before I had my first daughter.

They are very porous, and the only thing 'keeping the bugs out' is the spermicide in them. You have to add water to it (a little) to 'activate' it. Back then, anyway. Of coarse, if you add too much water, you rinse out too much. Maybe that's what we did.

ktspktsp · 04-21-2007, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freeload

I might be completely off, but when reading birth control statistics I believe they refer to the percentage of women not pregnant during a whole year. So 91% means 9 out of 100 women wil get pregnant during a year, not each time they have sex.

I think that's what it means too. For every 100 women that use it regularly as a method of birth control, 9 end up getting pregnant within a year.

cadre · 04-24-2007, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktspktsp

I think that's what it means too. For every 100 women that use it regularly as a method of birth control, 9 end up getting pregnant within a year.

Everything I've ever been told about those statistics indicates that this is not true. In fact the idea is that every time you have sex you have a 9 percent chance of getting pregnant. Think about it, do you have nine babies for every hundred times you've had sex?

03-18-2007, 04:45 PM	#1 (permalink)
Terminal Frost Tilted Location: Manhattan Island	So who uses a contraceptive sponge? Thoughts on the subject? Ok, so I'm in a monogamous relationship with a girlfriend of one year. Both of us are STD-free. We lost our virginity to each other and have always used condoms every time we've had sex. I'm sure everyone has experienced just how difficult it can be sometimes in the heat of the moment to pause and put on that little piece of plastic. We've found some good condoms that we both really like, but it's still a hassle. My girlfriend doesn't like the idea of hormonal birth control because of the way it affects one's body chemistry. I don't blame her at all and I am happy that she has such concern for her body. Neither of us wants children anytime soon, so relying on withdrawal or menstrual rhythm just wouldn't cut it. I felt like we were shit out of luck because the only other thing I could think of was a male pill but that has been "only a year away" since 1996. Then it hit me like a ton of bricks: What about the sponge?! I had only heard about this on Seinfeld and in the episode the sponge was being discontinued. I had no idea that it was now available again and from what I have read about it it seems very promising. If used correctly every time it has a pretty high success rate. Now I have two questions: 1) When they give the statistics about the sponge, do they figure that you are ejaculating inside the girl? I didn't see this specified anywhere, but it seems that if this is the case then it would even more effective if I just pulled out before I finished. Of course with a 91% success rate, it might just be worth it to finish off inside, if that is what they are counting on anyway. 2) If you have used the sponge, what are you experiences with it? It seems so great that you can put it in a few hours in advance so that when the mood finally strikes there is nothing to interrupt the moment. Is there any downside? Is it hard to put in or take out? Thanks a lot!

03-18-2007, 06:00 PM	#2 (permalink)
politicophile Addict	two characters __________________ The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty Last edited by politicophile; 02-08-2008 at 09:42 PM..

03-18-2007, 06:53 PM	#5 (permalink)
politicophile Addict	two characters __________________ The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty Last edited by politicophile; 02-08-2008 at 09:41 PM..

03-18-2007, 07:49 PM	#7 (permalink)
cadre The Worst Influence Location: Arizona	If she doesn't want hormones there is the IUD. You can get it hormone free. It's an implant, and she may have some issues finding a doctor that will do it but it's more than 99% effective. She should look it up and see if it's something she could handle. __________________ My life is one of those 'you had to be there' jokes.

03-19-2007, 10:15 PM	#10 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	I am here because of a sponge failure. That is enough said in my opinion. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

03-18-2007, 06:36 PM	#3 (permalink)
Terminal Frost Tilted Location: Manhattan Island	Thanks for your reply. Do you have any articles to back up your claim that the sponges are not as effective as pills and/or condoms? I don't mean to be a prick, but when considering something as important as birth control I prefer to have reliable sources. According to http://www.youngwomenshealth.org/summarychart.html , which is a "collaboration between the Division of Adolescent & Young Adult Medicine and the Division of Gynecology at Children’s Hospital Boston," the sponge is just as effective as the male condom for typical usage. I am just trying to figure out if there is just a stigma against the sponge. It seems like such a good alternative, though I don't know anyone that has ever used one!

03-19-2007, 08:45 PM	#8 (permalink)
eileenbunny Upright Location: Columbia, MD	I've used sponges with success, but they are a bit of a pain. Leaving it in after sex for several hours is necessary and that means that your girl could have to go to work/school/wherever still wearing the thing and have the need to take it out at some point away from home. That really sucks. Also, you can't use it while your girlfriend is on her period. I suggest a product like Conceptrol or VCF (vaginal spermicides). I've been using Conceptrol with my husband for the past 8 years and we have not had any pregnancy scares. The only problem with the stuff is that it can be messy, but hey, sex is messy anyway right? Vaginal spermicides are more effective than they used to be, so perhaps you should look in to it.

03-20-2007, 04:54 AM	#12 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	I used the Today sponge intermittently for several years and never had a problem with it. It is very easy and convenient to use. But it is true that it is not as reliable as prescription birth control. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

03-20-2007, 10:34 AM	#13 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	My eldest probably came around a sponge. Which is to say, if she came through it, there might be liability issues. Collection might be a problem, except that I did. Sincerely, my fellow human beings. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-20-2007, 03:58 PM	#14 (permalink)
eileenbunny Upright Location: Columbia, MD	Really if you are going to use any of these less reliable forms of birth control like the sponge, diaphragm, or vaginal spermicide you need to accept the fact that you are taking a risk. None of them are 100%, in fact the only form of birth control I know of that is 100% is abstinance. I guess you just have to weigh the risks and choose for yourself. My husband and I know that it wouldn't be the end of the world if I got pregnant, we just aren't actively trying for it. At least the OP is thinking about it before acting.

03-20-2007, 06:25 PM	#15 (permalink)
Terminal Frost Tilted Location: Manhattan Island	Thanks again for the responses thus far... but I still have one HUGE question that no one has addressed. Do these companies and organizations that report failure rates count on you ejaculating inside of the woman??!! Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like it they are, then you can drastically increase your chances of using any kind of birth control AND pulling out. I've never read directions for a condom or a sponge that said "Pull out before you ejaculate!" I mean think about it, the difference in the amount of sperm in pre-ejaculate that will leak out during intercourse and the amount of sperm contained in the ejaculation must be astronomical! I find it weird that no corporate or organizational website would touch on this subject - at least not one that I have been to. So am I missing something? Do I not understand how sperm works? I'm feeling more and more confused.

03-20-2007, 06:42 PM	#16 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	It takes 1 little sperm. that's it. that's all it takes, so it doesn't matter what the percentages are, if you are having sex it is greater than zero. All this increasing the percentages is nothing more than you not wanting to worry about if she's pregnant or not. So no matter how you slice and dice it, what you are looking for isn't anything more than peace of mind. But it really doesn't matter, you either are ready or not ready for the consequences of having sex i.e. having a baby. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

03-27-2007, 05:42 AM	#18 (permalink)
freeload Done freeloading here Location: on my ass :) - Norway	I might be completely off, but when reading birth control statistics I believe they refer to the percentage of women not pregnant during a whole year. So 91% means 9 out of 100 women wil get pregnant during a year, not each time they have sex. __________________ The future ain't what it used to be.

03-27-2007, 09:17 AM	#20 (permalink)
cadre The Worst Influence Location: Arizona	To answer your question, I highly doubt that those statistics take into account pulling out. I've never heard of a study that did unless that was the main interest. Can you explain why you think the sponge is so great? I think the reason you don't hear about it much is because it isn't nearly as effective as other options so not many people use it. This should be a big indicator for you that it is a bad idea. There are other options out there that are better, I think you need to do some more research. Has your girlfriend ever been on hormones? They don't effect everyone negatively, and if she's never tried it she could be missing out on a good option for birth control. __________________ My life is one of those 'you had to be there' jokes.

03-27-2007, 11:06 AM	#21 (permalink)
Hektore Junkie Location: Greater Harrisburg Area	I am so going to find the study I read over last semster during reproductive bio. It made the claim that with very reliable menstrual cycles, a good knowledge of when ovulation is going to occur and the will to abstain during inappropriate times of the month (particularly the 5 days before and after ovulation) that "withdrawal" could have up to a 90% effectivness in preventing pregnancy. The reality of getting someone pregnant is that there are times when she just can't get pregnant even if you ejaculate inside of her. I'm not saying use it, more of a "standard" to compare other contraceptives against. I think the real lesson here is education, this is too risky a thing to guess with, read, talk to your docter, her doctor and her OB/GYN. __________________ The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.