choice OR no choice
 

I am a lesbian, and have been one since I was 14 years old. But only recently have I been able to accept it. I spent 10 years (I am now 24) trying to pretend that I liked men, that I was attracted to them, that I wanted to be married to one. I have spent 5 years in church, praying for my feelings to change, go away, anything. 10 years is a long time to pretend you are something that you are not. And nothing changed. I still like women in every way I am supposed to like men.

Now I heard all types of things from all types of people. One of the being that people have a choice and can wake up and say "You know what? I am not going to be gay today."

After 10 years, I can't say that I believe that. I have many gay/bi/les friends, 80% of them have spent more than 4 years trying to change themselves in vain. We have all come to agree with one statement: You can choose who you have sex with, but you don't get to pick the people you fall in love with.

With that said I would like to know what you think. I don't care if you are GLBT or not. Share your thoughts.

Do you think people are born gay/bi/les or that they make that choice later in life?

Without soild and conclusive facts to prove that being gay/bi/les is a biological trait, I'm going to have to say that at some point in their lives a person chooses to be gay/bi/les.

I definitely think it is not a choice. What is at the root of it is a bit more debatable, but I think in most cases it is due to biology. Undoubtedly, there are cases in which it is due to psychology, but that doesn't make it any more of a "choice." The fact so many people do begin to realize they are homosexual at such a young age as 14 doesn't really make sense within the argument that it's a "choice." Teenagers generally like to "fit in." Considering how difficult it has been for many people who realize they're homosexual, especially if they came out in their teen years, I really find it hard to believe they "chose" to make their lives so hard at that time.

Homosexuality isn't a choice... I doubt many people would make the choice to do or to be something that causes them such inner turmoil and could potentially damage existing relationships that they do have.

With bisexuality, i think in some cases it is a choice, I read an article recently that described some college age females as being GUGs (Gay until Graduation) that they've gone the bisexual route to be "alternative" and it was a choice for them... I think that's true in some cases...

Well, as I'm sure others will point out, sexuality is more like a spectrum as opposed to hard-line categories such as "homosexual," "bisexual," and "heterosexual." I don't think those college students are "choosing" to be capable of being bisexual, they're just much more on the heterosexual end of the spectrum than other bisexuals.

It really depends on ther person. For some it may well be a conscious decision. I suspect that for most it is not a choice though.

Yep. I'm somewhere towards the middle side of heterosexuality. I'm definitely interested in women sexually, definitely interested in men sexually, but am unlikely to choose a life partner that is a female. Men just do it more for me.

Do I think these things are a choice? Hell no. I know from my own personal experience that I could not control my sexual and emotional response to certain people, regardless of their sex.

Homosexuality isn't a choice, in my mind, and besides--I don't know why anyone would choose to be persecuted, ostracized, and abused--all things that have happened to homosexuals I know.

I agree with SMeth... I would consider myself bi-curious, only because I haven't had the opportunity to go fully "all the way" with another woman, and have it reciprocated. However, I love women, find them beautiful, and fantasize about them. This is sticking around way past college.

Now, if I had to choose between spending my life with a man or a woman, I would choose a man, but I don't want to make that choice. My mom wanted me to, because when I was 16, I told her that I thought I was bi-sexual, and she slapped me across the face. However, that has not deterred me, nor spurred me on. I want what I want, and I didn't choose that, but I'm not choosing to suppress it either.

While I can't say for sure, I'm going to have to say that no it isn't a choice. I never chose to be heterosexual, why would it be any different for someone who was gay/lesbian/bi? And like snowy said, why would someone choose to be persecuted and abused if they could just, turn it off and be straight?

not a choice. I have a hard time believing that something that's been going on the entireity of written history everywhere on the globe is just a choice or fad.

Excellent topic, dd.

Can someone *choose* a homosexual lifestyle? Of course, and in the same way we might choose just about anything in our life. But the scientific literature grows daily that homosexuality is not chosen but a biological directive. Anecdotally, the gays and lesbians I have known have all said they learned of their same sex attraction at or around puberty.

I think your sexual orientation comes neither by choice, biological traits or effects from the environment. It is most probably caused by the interaction of all 3, which is why it makes it impossible to find THE cause of sexual orientation.

I think I saw something in the news about male and female pheremones, and that homosexuals have more receptors for the pheremones of the same sex. So, I'm a strong believer that it's not a choice; rather, it's a biological trait.

The most recent research I've read certainly makes it seem like there are hard wired biochemical differences between gay men and straight men.

Interestingly, self proclaimed bi men turned out to fall strongly into one or other category - there was not a continuum, there were two states.

I'm not saying that I agree with it totally, but it seems interesting.

This is 100% true, every study I've found that's tested it has proven that people who claim to have known they were gay from a young age respond to pheromones of the same sex rather than the opposite sex. I know it won't convince anyone who is sure that it's unnatural and unholy, but it's good enough for me to say I'm positive it's biological.

I remember listening to an interview of a founder for some fundamentalist organization promoting the "reformation" of homosexuals....

The interviewer asked the founder if he believed people were born gay. The founder said "Everyone makes a conscious choice at some point in their life, whether they are going to be sexually attracted to men, or sexually attracted to women."

The interviewer asked, "So did you choose between being sexually attracted to men or women?

The founder replied somewhat hesitantly "Yes, and I chose women"

The interview asked, "So at what age did you decide not to be sexually attracted to men anymore?"

The founder quickly spat out "Well.. I've always been attracted only to women"... :crazy:

So much for having a choice...

It's my belief people are born with their sexual orientation. It is also my belief, that those who are most disturbed/ashamed with where they land on the Kinsey scale, are often the loudest homophobic voices to be heard.

Personally I believe there is always choice. It's part of the wonders of being a human being. What some people need to remember is that choosing doesn't require concious thought about it to occur. People often CHOOSE to start smoking becuase they're stressed and it's something to do. They don't think, "I want to be a smoker and get lung cancer". They just DO it... but it's still by choice. Even moreso there are situations where people say, "but I had no choice" when that is blatently not true.

So, onto homosexuality. A girl may not sit down in her teen years and think, "I want to be a lesbian", but when she's staring at someone across the classroom, she might notice a girls budding breasts more than a guys growing muscles. I think it's a lot psychological, a lot how you grow up. The argument is often one of "but you don't CHOOSE who to be attracted to". Well, I agree to an extent... but I don't think you're BORN with a set attraction either. I have a penchant for asian girls and redheads. Do you think I was "born" that way? Do I have some encoded gene for "think redheads are hot"?

Well, to the OP, perhaps I just don't like the way it was worded. Maybe it's not a conscious choice, per se, but I don't think people are born gay or lesbian any more than they're born to like redheaded hotties or latino studmuffins.

How many things involving our feelings and senses are choices? I don't see much difference between our sexuality and what we like to eat. We all like and dislike different foods but is it a choice or the bodies reaction to stimuli? I will not eat cranberries. Sure, I can put some on my plate, eat them and pretend to like them but in the end, they are something I would not choose if given a choice. Same thing here. You can choose to like men, date them and pretend that your feelings for women are the same as a heterosexual but you are only going against your true feelings. I think the only choice in this situation is the one where you pretend to like something you really don't. Your true feelings are not a choice.

There are a number of people who believe that if you are born gay, it is God testing you.

Their thory seems to be that God doesn't like homosexuality, so he makes some people gay so that they have the chance to prove their strength by abstaining.

Sounds like a heap of crap to me, but it's how a christian friend of mine explained how some people are gay even though god doesn't like it.

All it proved for me is that there is little that a follower of a faith cannot justify (got things are a reward from heaven, bad things are a test of faith....)

It always amazes me that, with so many studies, articles written, etc. that anyone would think it's a choice. It's not. Some may choose to attempt suppression or attempt a hetero lifestyle, but sexuality is part of the whole as much as skin color and natural talents. My hair stylist is a twin. Both he and his twin sister are homosexual. He has tried to fight it and has had girlfriends, but always goes back to his 'true' self, hopefully for good now.

By my secondary understanding, I do not believe it is a choice. I've asked a few of my friends about it, and while they very in their reasoning, the consensus is that one is born with homosexual tendencies. They are rarely, if ever, developed later in life.

My understanding of the research is that for women, sexual preference is more like a spectrum, but for men it tends to be more dichotomous. (Which is not to say that there are no men between heterosexual and homosexual, just that the "spectrum" is far more prevalent in women).

Regarding the larger question of choice: It doesn't matter to me one way or another. If I were forced to choose, I would say no choice.

But why did she notice a girls bussing breasts more than a guys growing muscles?


I agree, but why don't you have a penchant for asian guys and redhead guys?


xepherys, you find yourself more attracted to asian and redhead girls. If you had your choice you would choose asian and redhead girls.

Would you consider dating (or sleeping with) a brunette, blonde, european, American, or any other woman?

Would you consider dating (or sleeping with) a guy?
If the answer is no, is it becuase you are just no choosing to do so or is it becuase you are not attracted to guys?

Until you can prove to me that it is biological, which means cold hard science, I'm going to say that it is choice, however deeply influenced and seemingly instinctive it is. You are not going to win me over with personal accounts and second-hand stories when you are trying to prove to me what is science. But what is annoying me in this tread is that people are assuming that if your vote for choice that you are against homosexuality. That simply isnt true. Futhermore, it seems as if your support of homosexuality is based on your belief that it is biological. If it turend out that it wasnt would you suddenly be against it? You all are dragging emotion into this which confuses the arugement. Biology vs choice, has nothing to do with right vs wrong.

For the people that think it's a choice, at what age did you decide to be hetrosexual or homosexual for that matter? I knew I was attracted to women at a very early age, and there was no choosing that, I mearly was that way for as long as I can remember.
I guess maybe people that think it's a choice have had to make that choice at some point in their life? Could that be why they think it's a choice?

This is not going to deteriorate into a shouting match, nor is anyone dragging emotion into it. I also see not one shread of evidence here that anyone is stating such that they only support it because they believe it is biological.
So, I will ask you this: Why would anyone choose a lifestyle rife with discrimination, threat of violence against them because of this 'choice', ostracization, alienation of family and every other negative reaction one can think of? Do you really think men would think 'um, soft breasts, pretty face..nah...I'll go with the masculine one over there and take it up the ass the rest of my life just so we can get beat to a pulp for it?'
Or that there is some sort of choice for those that are effeminate or women who look and act like men? I know lesbian women with male pattern baldness and acne-is that part of the choice or biological?
There HAVE been scientific studies done, as quoted above regarding pheremones, etc. There are also studies showing brain activity different in homosexual men from that of hetero, hormonal studies and polls.

Sticky- I may not choose who I think is attractive, but I don't think it's part of my genetic makeup... that's the point I'm trying to get across. Like MEAD says, if you can show me the genome that makes a man like men or like women, or a woman like a woman or a man, or makes a guy think about boning a sheep or makes a girl want a threesome or a gang bang, I'm going to call bullshit on "born that way". Sometimes choices are made without THINKING about them. You do it all the time, every day.

This kind of thinking (God tests us by testing/restricting how we may use free will/etc.) is one of my arguments against the existance of the traditional image of God. This implies sadism and an enjoyment of others' misery and misfortune, which are clearly traits of imperfect humans and not an all-good deity, leading me to believe that man, unable and unwilling to find explanations for that which he cannot understand or does not like0., created a God in his image to serve his purposes.

There's quite a difference between sexual perversions, ie; screwing animals and gangbanging and sexual lifestyle. In fact, many who do practice the most depraved acts are known to 'not be able to help themselves' and studies have shown a marked difference in the frontal lobes of violent criminals, including pedophiles. SO why is it so inconceivable to anyone that the brain and hormonal chemistry of someone could influence sexual preference?
Again, I ask, WHY would anyone choose a life of discrimination so blatant and allowable in this country?
Yes we make choices every day that impact HOW we live. Who we are and what attracts us has innumerous factors, not the least of which is basic wiring.

I was only given two options, choice or no choice, and it's far too complicated for such limiting options. I certainly dont think that most truly homosexual people at one point flip a coin on whether or not to be gay, just as I never did. But until those studies prove conclusive then I will admit only to sexuality's mystery and vagueness, while being totally accepting of anyone's sexual preference.

Maybe so, but "not born that way" doesn't mean choice. Psychological association, trauma, whatever can have an impact on things.

Besides, we can't even point to which genes make a person tall, which is relatively straight forward, let alone which might determine more complex things like intelligence or sexual preference. Would you say that being stupid is a choice?

Not only that, but there have been numerous studies studies that have pointed to differing brain structures, differing unconscious physiological reponses, etc. that are shared by homosexual individuals. Do you also contend that these differences are by choice?

Science needs to catch up to your bullshit meter then xepherys. They've yet to identify exactly how many genes there are in the human genome all together, much less map those to specific traits. (as ubertuber mentions). If it's possible (no scientific proof one way or the other yet), why is it bullshit if people have a different opinions then yours in the interim?

So if it's a choice though, I can consciously decide to change my mind then right? I might not have thought about breathing in just now, but I can then choose to hold my breath...

I don't see how actual choice can be the case (subconscious or otherwise) if you can't change the decision at any point. But now you have me trying to think of other examples where this does happen, when I should be working…. Dammit

I always saw monotheism as a way to prepare people for a totalitarian rule. One God, infalable, worthy of worship and praise..etc, seems to me like a way to teach people how to properly live in a totaliatian society.

Maybe God made His decision about homosexuality in the Old Testiment, and now has changed His mind...just like law and gospel.

My bullshit meter can actually sense bovine fecal matter. It's really useless until I get to the midwest, when it becomes a life saver.

I was not born attracted to asian women, I picked it up as a trait after birth. Did I make a conscious decision to be attracted to asian women? Nope. Was it inate? Nope. There is a middle ground here, folks. That is the real question. Is one born with geneology that preps biochemestry to find the same gender attractive? Or could it be a combination of environmental factors? Would these two choices acheive the same result? I doubt seriosuly that ANYONE has made a conscious decision to be gay...but I can't rule out entirely that it can be caused by environmental factors. The little phychologist that lives inside my brain won't let me simply accept that it's biochemical without proof.

Again, when I ask my gay friends (experts on the subject, if a bit biased), they say it's genetic. When I ask a psychologist, I usually get "environmental". Who's right? I have no idea. All I know is that being gay isn't wrong or immoral in my mind.

Choice or no choice, an individuals' sexual orientation is nobody else's business.

This is correct. It is much less common for a male to be honsetly bisexual than a female. Don't remember if I've ever seen anything suggest why this may be the case.

HAHAHAHA :thumbsup:

Right, and I do agree, it could very well be factors outside of genetics, such as environment, etc. My personal opinion is heavily on genetics though.

However that doesn't translate to choice and thats primarily what I'm addressing.

Not a choice in my opinion....acting on sexual urges is definately a choice though.....and I wouldnt expect anyone to deny the most powerful of natures curses....heh

It's only a curse when you ain't getting any....then you curse...a fuckin LOThttp://www.tfproject.org/tfp/images/smilies/lol.gif

I won't answer this poll on the grounds that it attempts to simplify a question for which we truly don't have an answer.

While I suspect that it is not a choice I would say that as socialized and self-aware creatures, it isn't that simple. There is more at play here than choice or not.

on second thought.....

I can't believe it's even a question. Nobody chooses to live a life surrounded by ignorant shitheads making fun of you. Gay people are born gay, even if the feelings do not develop until later. I'm a heterosexual and have no lust for men. If you are attracted to the same sex, it's not a damned choice, it's something in your genetics that made it happen, much like heterosexual people like the opposite sex by default. The notion that gay people choose to be gay is absolutely absurd and close minded.

I personally think that homosexuals are the human race's attempt at population control on our overcrowded planet. I believe in evolution, and the human race evolving into a fraction of non-reproducing homosexuals is a blatant attempt at controlling the population of the earth over a long period of time. It makes perfect sense...too many people on the earth, so our race evolves to control it.

Didn't vote cos frankly I am not sure and I think it can be both, I think it is more a per case than a generality... People personalities are so different that there is no way it is a choice or not for every gay person...

I don't know what causes someone to 'turn gay,' as the saying goes. Frankly, I've never put much effort into researching the root issues here and my first suspicion is that there is no one cause for every individual. Some folks might have a genetic predisposition or something, it could be environmental or caused by trauma, it could be some other unknown environmental or biological factor. What seems most probable to me is that it's all of the above, but I've never really felt the need to look into it.

I do know that I didn't choose to be heterosexual. I like girls. I like their shapes, their mannerisms, their voices. I happen to be a male. A female who shares my appreciation or a male who doesn't isn't really that big a deal. I'm fairly certain that no healthy individual would choose that path for themself; as has been pointed out, it's one fraught with doubt and discrimination.

Certainly one can choose to engage in acts of homosexuality without being homosexual, or vice versa. I know that I've heard of such things happening in the past. I have no interest in it; if you do, knock yourself out. But can one choose one's overall preference? I don't know, but somehow I doubt it.

My thinking is that the idea of homosexuality as a choice relates back to the perceived wrongness of it. One might presume that a homosexual individual is going against the natural order of things; if one were to further presuppose that each individual is normally inclined to follow said natural order, then one would assume that a person must make the conscious decision to defy it. This is flawed, of course, in that it assumes that nature is bound by our perceptions of the rules. No evidence of any such thing exists; indeed, it seems the opposite is true. We're bound by the rules of nature and we expend a great deal of time and energy in the attempt of discerning just what those rules are. Should something come along that doesn't fit our understanding, it seems to be the better option to assume that our understanding is wrong and modify it accordingly, rather than assume the rules themselves are wrong.

Of course, if someone is choosing to be gay said someone can choose not to be gay anymore, which would doubtless be a comfort to those in the conflicted position of believing homosexuality to be wrong but finding out a loved one is batting for the other team.

I'm curious if this isn't just because of the societal view of male homosexuality vs. female homosexuality. If you're on the spectrum (not at the extremes), that means you could be happy either way, and if society is more OK with females experimenting bisexually than with men experimenting bisexually, then wouldn't it make sense to see more of the women actually acting on their urges, as opposed to the men who would be less likely to do so, seeing as they still have a viable option in women and society would look down on them much more? I think this explains difference between the female and male spectrum (although i'm sure it's flawed in some way, and someone will point it out, I just can't see it right now).

As far as the question goes, I like Will's answer, I definitely think it's not a choice... I just don't know why it's not a choice. Biological? Environmental? Psychological? Who knows.

I was trying to point out that an attraction to a certain look is different than sexual preference.

Even though you are attracted to asian and redhead women you may still sleep with a woman who is not asian or redhead.
Correct?
The answer is proabably yes but only you really know the answer.

But would you sleep with a guy?
The answer is probably no.


So what is the difference between those two.
I was trying to point out that your attraction to asian ans redhead women while learnt or developed over time is not really the same thing as your heterosexuality.

Researchers have used more than self-reported sexual preference to demonstrate this difference in distribution of sexual preference. Sexual arousal studies using physiological measures have supported the sex difference as well. I doubt that others opinions of male bisexuality would affect the physiological sexual arousal of males.

This isn't particular to your post, but how is psychological not biological? Choice versus no choice is not psychological versus biological. Both choice and no choice must be biological (unless we are reverting to Cartesian dualism).

How is environmental not biological? I suppose that environment might be considered separate from biology in the sense of heritability- Differences between people in their sexual preference could be due to something other than differences in their genes. But even in that case, I would expect environmental causes to be grounded in biology - an environmental influence would have to cause a biological change in the organism during development in order to affect sexual preference.

That makes me wonder about what kind of environmental information could change sexual preference during development.


Edit: If sexual preference was so malleable, if a person could simply decide to be sexually attracted to men, I don't think that the human race would have lasted as long as it has.

[Kidding]Men, homosexual or heterosexual, tend to have lower standards in mates, tend to require less time before having sexual intercourse with a mate, tend to require less commitment before sex, and tend to have a greater preference for short-term mating. If we could so easily change are sexual preference, all men would become homosexual just for the easier sexual access.[/kidding]

Of course it's a choice, a gay friend of mine was telling me exactly that the other day:

"I want to live the rest of my life being looked down upon by ignorant people. I want to go through every day knowing that I may encounter violence just for being me. I want people's lack of understanding to grow into fear. I'd like to be ridiculed, hated, and taught through hurtful words and actions that different is not ok. Most of all, I want people to tell me that I'm not a worthwhile human being."

Of course it's not a choice. I have no idea where anyone ever got the idea that it would be.

What I was getting at was that a male who was bisexual might not decide to act on their arousal toward another male due to societal factors, thus making it seem as though there is more of a spectrum with women than with men. However if we were talking about research on what men actually feel, as opposed to what we actually see happening in society, my point would be moot.

I think for the purpose of this thread, when people say "biological", they mean "inherited", or at least that's what I meant. The difference between "biological" and "environmental" would relate to something after birth, some stimulus from life experience, causing one to psychologically prefer a sexual orientation other than heterosexuality. Either way we're ultimately on the same side of the original question, in that homosexuality is not a choice a person makes, whether it be stemming from something inherited or something that happened after birth.

Well then the "cure" is simple, when infants... boys should be breast fed, girls should be given formula.

That will solve it right there! :lol:

Right. I suppose that I'm talking about sexual arousal, and you're talking about who people actually choose to have sex with. When I spoke of male sexual preference being dichotomous and female sexual preference being more of a spectrum I was suggesting that men tend to display a dichotomous distribution of arousal (either they're attracted to men or their attracted to women), while women tend to be more of a spectrum of arousal. Some of the research demonstrating this uses equipment that presumably measures arousal directly (fMRIs, vaginal plethysmographs, etc.). So, the sprectrum/dichotomy difference is there independent of societal factors.

I agree, though I wouldn't consider psychological to be separate from biological.

Also, there are a lot of different categories of possible environmental causes of homosexuality:
-in utero trauma
-some other abnormality of the gestational environment
-a normal response to an environmental cue within the gestational environment caused by the mother herself
-environmental trauma after birth (during development)
-A normal response to environmental cues after birth
-A combination of the above
-A combination of the above with a genetically caused tendency toward homosexuality.

I was raised by 2 men, and with the both of them it was... just that way ever since they were small. For me I played around making sure I knew what I wanted seeing if I was like my father, and nothing get's me more then the scent of a woman. Had it been genitic I think it would have been a different story, but I do belive that some people got it and some don't.

You are who you are and your true friends will still be there for you no matter what. I believe that some people are born homosexual and some choose the lifestyle later in life. It matters not to me what gender someone prefers to be intimate with. What matters is the kind of person they are and how they treat their loved ones.

One thing I would like us all to remember is that: Being gay is not about sex. You can fuck anyone and it mean nothing.
Being gay is about who you fall in love with, who you connect with, and who you desire to be around, it is about love.

I understand that some people really are Bi while others (like the GUGs) are just having sex with anyone who will give it to them. My friends and I have began to call them "greedy."

So, while the people you are attracted to (and what to have sex with) may fall into a wide spectrum; I think that the people you can fall in love with falls into a spectrum that is a little more narrow.

Or maybe it is just my thinking that is narrow.

So this is going to be a pretty long post. I have just finished reading all the replies up to my last one, and here is my two cent.

Has anyone ever seen the movie "But I'm a Cheerleader"??? That is what comes to mind. I just found out that homosexuality was not taken out of the APA's book of illness until 1994. How many people are out there, you think, that still thinks that gayness is a sickness that one can be cured of? And if you know someone who can do the curing, send me their info, I would love to meet them.
On that note, if there really was a person who could make gay people straight, then and only then would I say that ganyness is a choice. Becuase there would be an option there.

Well said.

now, xepherys, your state your points very well. but I have a question for you.

When did you chose to be attracted to redheads? No, I don't think it was a choice that you made, and I do not think that you have some encoded gene either. And that is my point. You did not make the choice, but at some point in time you realized that you liked redheads more than you liked blonded. I didn't make the choice, either, but at some point I realized that I like women, in everyway, more than I liked men. I am the only out lesbian in my family, so I don't think there is a gene.

We make the choice to say, "I am going to be out" or "I will not be out." But I agree with Miss Badu when she sang "emotions don't lie."

You also said that my question to you is quite simple: What do you think the choices are?

Daniel stated, "There are a number of people who believe that if you are born gay, it is God testing you. Their thory seems to be that God doesn't like homosexuality, so he makes some people gay so that they have the chance to prove their strength by abstaining."

Well, 1 Cor 13 states that God is love. Before that in one of the gospels, Jesus states that man really only need to follow two commands: 1) Love the Lord your God with all your mind, strenght, soul, and understanding. 2) Love your nieghbor as you love yourself.

Nowhere, that I have found, does it say that some kind of love is wrong and some is right. If God is love why would He look down on any type of love? Ask your friend this. Let me know what they say.

If you don't care one way or another why make a choice at all?

Thank you Mead, but let me say that your vote does not mean that you are agaisnt homosexuality, it just means that you think it is a choice.

I am however wondering why you think it is science. Do you have cold hard proof that it is a choice? If so, I would love to read it. As we know, there is an execption to every rule.

And, so that everyone else here knows, I am not asking if you think it is right or wrong. Honestly, I care less if you think I will burn in hell or not, I just wanna know if you think I am chosing to burn in hell.

Mead, what other options do you think should be given? I did, however, set the opition limits so that people would discuss the topic, but if you think there should be more options, what should they be?

And my point was to get people to talk about those things at play.

Which I would like to thank you all for doing.

I would say that it's not a choice. I think the choice comes in accepting who you are, and that depends on a lot of other factors like the environment you were raised in.

I can only speak from my perspective experience being a heterosexual male, but I think homosexuality is biological. When I reached puberty, all I could think about were gils, girls, and more girls. It wasn't a choice. I wasn't feeling pressured by society to think this way. It's just they way it was. I would imagine that having homosexual thoughts and feelings happen naturally, too.

What an extremely emotionally charged poll/question...no matter your answer at least some will disagree with you...some so vehemently it may be considered outrage...

I'm going to take a swing at it...I like some/most men am basically hetero but have entertained at least a curiosity about M2M sexuality. (though most men won't admit that) I've had numerous friends in the gay/lesbian community so I feel familiar with the subject as well. A fairly high percentage of the gay males and females I know are certain in their conviction about gender attraction and either have been all of their lives or have more recently identified that attraction. (for lack of a better word) I have no problem believing that is a genetic signal rather than choice. There are those I've met that have made a conscious choice about gender affiliation that I know as well...some because of traumatic events in their lives such as sexual abuse, others yet due to the symptoms of affective or emotion disorders resulting in low self esteem or debilitating insecurity. There are still others that consider themselves bisexual and because of that determination are shunned by both the gay community as well as the hetero community...it seems more an asexual choice but undeniably these people are attracted to the same sex as well.

In a nutshell I'd have to vote say (JMHO) that both elements of the poll are true to some degree...

I'd like to add a note to those using religion as a sword in their attack on sexuality as a whole...other than adultery, sexuality only became an issue in the last 300 years and only in Judaeo/Christianity...

for the sake of arguing? Don't people make choices everyday, even large choices, that put themselves in obvious uncomfortable places that cause anxiety and innerturmoil? And also, why would homosexuality and attraction to the same sex be any different if you are attracted to both? I know some people experiment but I will never do things more then once if I don't find an advantage in it.

that said I believe men and women are born gay. But not because of how hard the choice would be, simply because the choice could never be made. I like what I like and I never choose my preferences. They are simply who I am.

Nope, had the same issue with religion. Knew I didn't believe in god for years.

nicely put

Hmm...that might change...lmao

I dont think its a choice at all.sexual urge is a very primitive instinct based thing..

Watching family guy reruns the other day, we saw the episode where Meg is invited to join the schools lesbian club and doesn't say shes straight because its a way to have friends. Two lines amused me when she confessed she was straight to the girl who invited her to join.

"You mean all those rounds of golf were lies?'

and

Meg: "I didn't think being gay was a choice?"
Girl: "Well for guys its not."

I think for male homosexuals there is no choice involved. Even if its more accepted its still a difficult thing for most people to tell their parents at best, and few people want to be that different or risk some of the reactions people have.

For females I think its something of another story. For some I think its the same as the men, there is no doubt, they are homosexual. For a lot of others though they seem to bounce around with it. I know two women who were in lesbian relationships and are now married to men. You won't find that nearly as often with men. Also currently female bisexuality is very accepted in many circles and even encouraged, to the point some straight females will be what I call 'socially bi' willing to do the flirting and kissing in public.

So while for some homosexuality is not a choice, for others it is.

nothing to say

I feel there should be a third option to the poll.

I know people who have chosen to be homosexual because of preference.

I know people who have shown homoxesual traits from early childhood and therefore were in my humble opinion born homosexual.

Homosexual, straight or whatever, I will lose no sleep tonight over anyones sexual preferences. I respect people for being people but who they choose to have intimate incounters with. :)

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my mind.

Besides, lots of animals have been known to be gay...there are gay fruit flies that have been positively linked to a certain genetic trait.

That said, I think the OP answered her own question. She has had these feelings since she can remember haveing sexual feelings and they won't just "go away."

I think it's certainly possible for someone to choose to have sex with someone of the same sex, but not for them to feel sexually attracted only to that sex.

The only ones qualified to answer this question are the practicing homosexuals and bisexual folks out there.
Why do only self-proclaimed heterosexuals (like myself) feel that the truth will arise from debate and speculation? Just ask your gay friends and you'll get more insight.

well, if i chose to be straight, how is that any different than someone choosing to be homosexual? same thing goes with if it was natural and no choice.

just because someone is gay doesn't mean that they should have arrived at their sexuality any differently than someone who's straight. we should be able to extrapolate based on our experience.

I hope you're not implying that I say otherwise. I didn't offer an opinion. The only point I make is that the opinion of a heterosexual on the matter is just pointless academic pontification.

In theory that would be the case.

You made my point when you said "we should be able to extrapolate." It's still pure speculation on your part if you're not homosexual.

Personally, I believe individuals have specific sexual proclivities based on a complex and poorly understood interaction between psychology and neuroendocrine response. I'm inclined to think that the abstract notion of "psychology" is a product of BOTH hereditary and developmental influence.

It seems natural to presume one can make a direct analogy from homosexuality to heterosexuality. But that's a presumption conjured in vitro.

If a man wonders why his wife doesn't like sports - what's the point of debating the matter with his friends when he can just go home and ask his wife?

I stand by my point.

Who is to say we have'nt? I know my opinions on the subject are due to speaking with homosexuals and bi sexuals as well as my own observations.

Most of the others have already voice my opinion - of which there isn't a totally accurate option for me to choose from.

In my experience, I was raised very conservatively, so I never entertained the idea of engaging in sexual behavior with someone of the other sex. But I recall many times feeling 'excited' and uncomfortable as a result when girlfriends were more physical with me, or when I saw them naked. I chalked it up to me just being unused to those situations. Even when I happened upon my grandpa's stash of playboy magazines, and enjoyed sneaking peaks at them while visiting my grandparents, I just thought it was because it was forbidden. But when I made the choice to actually engage in sexual behavior with another woman, it felt NATURAL, and NORMAL for me.

I could have gone my whole life without acknowledging any interest in women and I don't think I would have 'lost' a part of me but only because I am bi-sexual. For some who are STRONGLY homosexual in their brain chemistry, I would see it as less of a choice. In my case, where it wasn't a strong drive so much as an interest, it was a choice to engage in some sexual behavior with the same sex.

Sexual preferences vary so much that hard and firm extremes are more rarity. I think choice AND genetics BOTH play a role in where you end up.

This is a very interesting question,
In my opinion it is not a choice, sexual preference is something that is not within our control.

I see the world a bit differently, like Freud I think, he had some similar ideas, can't remeber what he called it though.
It is like this, sexuality is sexuality, I don't belive in heterosexuality or homosexuality. Those lables gives the idea that sexuality is divided somehow by impassible limits.
As I see it we are all sexual (bisexual) by nature but our sexual preferences makes us prefer certain traits in the ones we fall in love with, such as gender.

I also differentiate between hard preferences and weak preferences, that being for somone who is, by the "old" way of defining it, heterosexual has a hard preference for partens with the opposite gender. Whereas a guy who prefers big breasts instead of small ones has a weak preference for big breasts. You get the idea.

The weak preferences you can go beyond (ie. the guy can fall in love with a smallbreasted woman) without any serious trouble, but the hard ones are usually, well, harder to pass, not insurmountable but just a heck of a lot harder and usually don't give even close to the same satisfaction as following your preference.

Just as bisexuality is usually biased, meaning they usually prefer one gender a bit more than the other, heterosexuality and homosexuality is hard biases in this "scale".

These preferences are not our choices as I see it, you can't convince somone to fall in love with you. Following that line of thought, you can't convince yourself to fall in love with somone inside or outside of the hard preferences.
Love is love and part of it's beauty is that we can't control it.

& just how did you come to decide that you were gonna be straight?

read the part you quoted again... if... IF i chose...

i didn't choose. i just am.

this thread becomes an exercise in semantics because of how it's phrased. I guess homosexuality is a choice but only in the sense that eating is a choice. i.e. I have no choice to feel hungry but I choose to eat because I'm hungry.

While a homosexual (and heterosexual for that matter) consciously chooses to identify with that label by deed or declaration they may have no choice over their hormonal/emotional inclinations.

Man...I had a whole thing written out for this and then it was gone...poopy.

Anyways.

As a gay man, I have always felt that I had exactly 3 choices regarding my sexuality.

1. I could "hide" it. I tried this for a while, by having relationships and sex with only women. It was mildly enjoyable for me. I mean, cumming is cumming. But, it did lead to a lot of lying and self hatred, and because of that I tended to go through partners EXTREMELY quickly. It's like I was overcompensating by screwing lots of girls. A lot of people got hurt and that made it even harder to live with.

2. I could become asexual As the Catholic church used to say(and maybe still does..I am not up on it's stance at this point) "They accept everyone for who they are...even the gay's...they just don't condone the "act" of homosexuality". So it's alright to not have sex with women, as long as your not having sex at all. Basically, be gay, and never act on it. Of course that would lead to more lying and self-loathing.

3. I could "be" gay. Ah bliss! It's where I started out, and where I ended up. Kind of a "full circle" thing. LOL. I found out that even if the world hated me, I no longer did. I was able to live with myself much better without the lies and self-hatred.

Now I'll admit this was much more coherant before my internet crashed as I was posting it. But I think I got the gist of it.

I feel that you are born gay, straight, bi or whatever, but, you do have the choice if you are going to act on it.:icare:

This doesn't address the poll question, but it seems to me that you have waited long enough for the acceptance and getting on with the being happy part. You need to go for the happy and screw what the rest of us think!

I will say that it seems biological to me in that if I think with my little head, I find no interest in men what so ever, but a curvy woman will get my interest any time. There is no choice in it for me. My little head does the choosing just as I suspect your body does for you.

Go be happy!

I voted "no choice" though this is not universal, at least for females.

I did not choose to be lesbian, nor did my wife. She says she’s always been attracted to girls at least since puberty. Her sister reports the same. My sexuality was strongly affected by environmental influences, but this does not make my attraction to females a choice any more than my inability to use my left hand is a choice.

The evidence for males is very strong that exclusive homosexuality for the vast majority of males is a condition that is present at birth and is the result of a combination of genetic factors and gestational hormones. Specifically, unusually high levels of stress hormones early in gestation may activate certain genes, resulting in an orientation to males. This is likely a natural population control method, a built in response to environmental factors that would produce high levels of stress hormones. In non-human mammals the biggest environmental stressors tend to be overpopulation and scarcity of food, both conditions being served by reducing the population. In male-oriented young transitioning male to female transsexuals, the etiology appears to be very similar to that of gay males, though this group is a minority among MTFs. What accounts for the difference isn’t precisely known, but it is thought that the timing of the anomalous hormone levels probably plays a factor.

The evidence for lesbians is far more muddled. There are lesbians, those who exhibit strongly masculine characteristics, or the “bull dyke” stereotype, who seem to have unusual hormone profiles, which in this group points to a biological, though not genetic cause. This also seems to be the most common etiology for FTM transsexuals, who can be difficult to distinguish from very butch lesbians at times. The most common correlation, however, is to acute childhood abuse/trauma, either physical or sexual, as either a victim or witness. Lesbians are far more likely than straight women to have had one or more male abusers in their childhood, teen years or early adulthood, or to have lived in an environment in which they consistently witnessed abuse by males (ie, usually a father/boyfriend abusing their mother). Out of this group, there appears to be two subgroups, those whose sexuality was influenced such that they are rendered incapable of forming the type of bond with a man that a heterosexual relationship requires. Others report simply giving up on ever finding a man capable of meeting their needs sexually, or with whom they can connect emotionally. This last group can fairly be said to have chosen homosexuality, and it seems that even with those for whom it was not a conscious choice, environmental factors outside the womb play a bigger part than genetic or hormonal factors.

Regardless of the etiology, therapy for lesbians tends not to make them straight, even when they’ve resolved the issues related to their past trauma, and “reparative therapies” tend to have about the same success rates as with gay males, with is to say very little, and tend to do much more damage psychologically than help. The goal of therapy for most reputable mainstream therapists who deal with homosexuals is to help them accept who they are and deal with the stresses that accompany their orientation.

Recent studies have show that gay males tend to have certain brain functions that are in line with those of heterosexual females, and lesbians, regardless of etiology, have brain functions, particularly those dealing with the reaction to pheromones, that coincide with heterosexual males, though right now it’s strictly correlational. In other words, we know that lesbian brains tend to respond to women like straight male brains, but we don’t know if that’s the cause, or the result of the homosexuality. Did the differences in brain structure cause the behavior or did the behavior lead to a difference in brain structure? We don’t know, and it would take a longitudinal study to find out.

So with males, it seems they’re born that way, and with females, a minority are born that way, while a majority are the result of environmental factors which lead some to choose homosexuality and others have their orientation influenced in that direction as a result of trauma.

As far as personal experiences, I’m certain that my homosexual orientation is a result of sexual abuse at the hands of several men initially in childhood and later in early adulthood. I’ve had sex with men enough times to know that it’s not possible for me to find either physical release or emotional connection to any man, including one very gentle and understanding boyfriend I had near the end. Grace, on the other hand, has identified as gay since puberty, and never reported any attraction to men at all. She does exhibit some of the common physical features of women with an unusually high level of androgen (for a female) during childhood and puberty, in that she’s unusually tall, has some mildly androgynous features, enjoys sexual dominance, and has always been a bit of a tomboy, never really interested in girly things. Well, other than me. My sister, an MTF transsexual, has been overtly effeminate and identified as female since she was four years old and strongly oriented exclusively to males since the onset of puberty. For none of us was our sexuality a choice.

So, short answer, is it a choice? For males, no, and it seems to be an inborn characteristic. For females, environmental factors are much more important,. For a large portion of females the answer remains no, but for a significant minority of females, it is a choice.

The key thing to remember in all this is that regardless of the cause, there is no good reason to treat homosexuals unfairly or to discriminate against them. How something comes to be the way it is has little to no relation to the value of that thing. Different does not mean sick, and it does not mean bad, and it does not mean harmful. Homosexuality may in some cases result from trauma or other environmental influences, at least in females, but there is nothing morally wrong with it, nor does it harm the individual in any way.

And as my final bit of support for my positions, I'll note that I seem to be in agreement with Ustwo on the major points here, and, to paraphrase him from a few days ago, when Ustwo and I agree on something involving sex, it must be true.

Gilda

Whoa, that's an amazing post, Gilda!

i agree, but i have come to see that gilda always has something interesting to say.
thanks for adding to the conversation

the life of the homosexual is more difficult than that of the heterosexual in every way. if it were a choice, who would choose that?

Wow. Suprisingly ignorant and stupid if you ask me.

You most assuredly DO NOT choose to be homosexual. It is MOST CERTAINLY biological in nature.

Keep your eyes peeled for journals such as Nature and New England J. Med. in the next year or so ;)

God.

Even when the biological markers are spelled out for people they will reject it all. Welcome to a round world people.

PS: B.A. much? Lol ..

I'd just like to thank you guys for this thread.

I've always had some homosexual urges in me. Heterosexual ones as well (more of them, and I suppressed the homosexual ones, so at times I feel straight. Others, I identify as bi. Flavor of the month, I suppose).

At the same time, I'm homophobic. Not heterosexist, but homophobic.

There is NOTHING wrong with homophobia. It is just like claustrophobia, agoraphobia, etc. It is an irrational fear of something that you cannot control. Small spaces, outside places, or homosexuals, it doesn't matter. So that's made a bit of an internal struggle for me at times, having these urges and being afraid of them more so than the average gay/bi at coming out.

Anyways. Fast-forward to present, where I'm with an amazing girl. Our relationship is mindbogglingly close for me - I love it. One of the things that bothered me from time to time, though, is that she is bi. She's experimented with girls in the past.

Now, it may seem horrible, to be who I am and still to have a problem dating a bisexual. I'm sorry - I can't control it.

But, in some way, this thread has helped. I'll post more later when my thoughts clarify.

I'd just like to say thanks.

EDIT: Oh, and again, sorry for the necro. Seems to be a trend of mine today.

Well i tell ya. I'm straight and I don't EVER remember waking up one morning and saying "I think I'm gonna like GIRLS for the rest of my life!"

So if *I* did not make that choice, it stands to reason that *you* did not make that choice either.

But I'll tell you something else. I really don't give a damn if it's a choice or not. People are running around acting like if it's a CHOICE then we can shun gay people. That's bullshit. I was under the impression that the USA was supposed to be about freedom of choice.

Frankly saying "it's not a choice and therefore you must accept it" is tantamount to saying "it's a good thing it's not a choice because deep down we know it really is bad."

And there is nothing bad or wrong with being gay. Despite some religious nutcases who believe the contrary, you being gay will not turn me gay, will not cause me to divorce my wife, and will not warp the mind of my child.

Even if you marry and move in next door to me, it will not hurt me in any way.


Hell politicians choose to be politicians and no one bats an eye when THEY marry ;)

This isn't unusual. Most people have at some point in their lives experienced some same sex attraction. At times in my past I identified as straight and bi. It took me a while to work things out. The best way to deal with it is accept that whatever attraction you feel for other adults is normal and healthy (so long as no children are involved) and not worry about which label to use. I say this, but I'm not so good at it myself. I seem to have a need for the label, to be able to define things in a concrete way, so I do understand to a degree what you're saying here.

I'd be interested to know if this is a clinical diagnosis from a qualified therapist or psychologist, or a self-diagnosis.

We have to distiguish between the common usage of the word homophobia and clinical forms of specific phobia. In common usage, "homophobia" is a general term for prejudice against and/or dislike of homosexuals (with bisexuals and transsexuals almost always included). In other words, bigotry. This, clearly, is wrong.

What you seem to be doing is drawing a parallel to the clinical definition of a specific phobia as a way of defending your homophobia. Specific phobia is an anxiety class disorder. You do at least acknowledge that it's irrational, but your claim that there's nothing wrong with it is not accurate. First, homophobia is not an identified phobia in the DSM IV, nor does it fit well in any of the listed subtypes. All clinical phobias are harmful by definitions, an indication that something is wrong, else they wouldn't be phobias.

These are the relevant criteria:

• Marked and persistent fear that is excessive or unreasonable, cued by the presence or anticipation of a specific object or situation (e.g., flying, heights, animals, receiving an injection, seeing blood).
• Exposure to the phobic stimulus almost invariably provokes an immediate anxiety response, which may take the form of a situationally bound or situationally predisposed Panic Attack. Note: In children, the anxiety may be expressed by crying, tantrums, freezing, or clinging.
• The person recognizes that the fear is excessive or unreasonable. Note: In children, this feature may be absent.
• The phobic situation(s) is avoided or else is endured with intense anxiety or distress.
• The avoidance, anxious anticipation, or distress in the feared situation(s) interferes significantly with the person's normal routine, occupational (or academic) functioning, or social activities or relationships, or there is marked distress about having the phobia.

Notice the bold part, that to be a clinical specific phobia, it must cause serious impairment of some kind. All clinical phobias are anxiety disorders, emphasis on disorder.

There is something wrong with homophobia. Even if we accept that it's a clinical anxiety disorder (which I think is a dubious claim at best), it is an indication that something is wrong. Describing it in clinical terms does not free you from responsibility for dealing with how it affects your attitudes and behaviors.

It's common, both for straight and gay people to not want to date or be intimate with bisexuals. I really can't understand this attitude among homosexuals, who can end up treating bisexuals with the same prejudice as heteros do us.

However, who you do and don't choose to have sex and or a romantic relationship with is entirely your choice to make, and it's really not my or anyone else's place to judge that. Sexual preference is a complex and personal thing that should be up to the individual. I won't have sex with a man, nor with a butch lesbian. They just do nothing for me. I'm more physically attracted to Asians and Latinas than to other ethnic groups.

So long as it involves consenting adults, you're entitled to whatever sexual preference you like. It's a problem only when it interferes with your ability to build a relationship or affects others not involved, say if you object to a friend dating a bisexual.

Let me ask you a question before I head off to work. I'm homosexual, married to another woman. Let's say we were to meet casually, say to discuss a common interest like, for example comic books, or perhaps you were a student in one of my classes. Would being in my presense and interacting with me in a casual, non sexual way, perhaps in a discussion of art or as a student to a teacher, or as a client for whatever is your profession cause a strong, involuntary anxiety in you? Would you be afraid of talking to me or interacting with me in a non-sexual manner? Would this anxiety be so great that it would make you unable to function normally and have a healthy interaction, primarily because I'm homosexual?

Understand, I'm not trying to bait you, and I'm not going to take offense if the answer is yes, I'm just honestly curious as to how your homophobia manifests itself. I have to go to work. I'll check back here later on.

Gilda

Alrighties, it's a self-diagnosis, not a clinical diagnosis, and many of your points are true.

However, I think you misinterpret how it affects my daily interactions. I enjoy many friendships with gay and bisexual people (no lesbians just for the fact that I do not know any, I have no problem with them, however) - I actually enjoy their company moreso at times because I find them more emotionally expressive, on the whole. This is not to say I neglect my friendships with straight people of both genders.

However, when we're on the subject of sexuality, and they are talking about non-heterosexual exploits, my stomach does a sort of twist, as if it knows something is wrong.

I know NOTHING is. But my gut just keeps on sending up flags.

I ignore these because I know that I am homophobic - not NEARLY to the extent you described, nor do I let it affect my social interactions in the slightest. The worst offense I have against the GLBT community is that I occasionally slip up and use the word 'gay' as a negative reference to something. My gf pointed out that I did this and I try extremely hard not to anymore.

I -do- think my homophobia is okay. It's something I cannot change - I have tried many times in the past, and still try today. Why would I want to have a problem with people who are the closest of my friends, heck, why would I want to feel uneasy when my gf talks about some of the things close to her heart? I would love to be able to share completely in them with her, to accept her 100%. I really dislike my homophobia.

But that doesn't mean I consider it wrong. It's a part of me, just like your sexuality is a part of you. I would never think of being prejudical against any member of the GLBT community based on their sexual orientation - it'd be a bit hypocritical, don'tcha think?

Btw, if it isn't already obvious, no to every single one of your questions at the end - I'd be perfectly happy to interact socially with you, even befriend, because you seem like a caring individual. But if the conversation turned to your relationship with your wife, I would feel a tad uneasy, and would just suppress that feeling. I doubt you would know I was uneasy unless I told you.

It's just a part of my life, it fluctuates, too - like this thread has helped me in some way with this. Bah for verbosity, it helps me think. Will write more later.

And you draw the identical conclusion about people choosing to be straight/breeder, right?

Can you share with us your experience when you chose to attracted to members of the same/opposite sex?

Goodness, did you think I was criticizing your daily treatment of others? If so, I aploogize for whatever I might have said to imply that. I was trying to understand exactly what you meant by homophobia, and defining what that means. You made a comparison to clinical phobias, so I explored what those were for a bit to show the difference.

Well that's not necessarily indicative of homophobia, in either sense that I defined it, or if it is, it's a pretty mild form of it. Nearly everyone has that sort of reaction to some sexual acts. It certainly doesn't indicate prejudice of any sort.

Ok, first, I didn't describe you as homophobic, you did that, and I just reread my post and don't see my doing that there. I discussed what homophobia is, and what clinical phobias are and asked the questions I asked in an attempt to learn a little bit more about your position.

Taking steps not to use "gay" as an epithet is a very positive thing. I applaud you for that.

Here's the thing. You don't have to be comfortable with everything about your friends to be friends with them, to even be a good friend. There's nothing wrong with being a little uncomfortable with sex talk involving sex acts that don't appeal to you.

Yeah. But that doesn't stop people from dividing the world into us vs. them, even withing subcultures that would be better off being a unified front. I know lesbians who reject transwomen as not being real women. I know straight transwomen who oppose gay rights. I've known butch lesbians who consider femmes to be somehow less gay than they. It's irrational and hypocritical, but it happens. Strongly expressed homophobia can be a reaction to repressed homosexual desires.

Please note, I'm not describing you here.

That's good to hear :). I don't, by the way, discuss sexual matters regarding my wife Grace in person. Here, sure, that's part of why I come here, to talk about sexuality. In an in-person interaction, you'd know I was a lesbian and married to another woman, and that would be it.

To make this absolutely clear, the purpose of those questions was not to be accusatory. You had described your homophobia in terms of clinical phobias, and I was trying to determine if that description really fit. It doesn't. If this were a clinical phobia, you would find it difficult merely to be around homosexuals, to be in the presense of them, and would find interaction with them anxiety inducing.

There's really no need to defend what you describe as your homophobia as being ok. It does seem to cause you a little distress, so you might need to work on that, but it doesn't affect how you treat others. I find homophobia morally repugnant, but you aren't homophobic in either sense that I describe above.

The way you treat your friends earns my respect.

Gilda

It's a choice influenced by many factors, both inward and outward.

Edit: Ok. My original post was rather short and non-informative so I'm going to elaborate. I'm of the belief that the saying "You can't help who you are attracted to" is utter BS. Life is a series of choices, and who you fall in love with is another one of them.

Everyone has gay/straight tendencies and we all make a (sub-)conscious decision as to which feeling we'd rather manifest more so than the other.

I'm not so sure that this is one of those things that is black and white. I think some people choose to be gay, and I think others are born that way. There are sometimes even small children that show signs of homosexuality at a really young age, and other times I think it just "happens". I used to know a girl that was straight as a board, until she tried a threesome with her boyfriend and a friend. That day, she just decided that she liked it "the girl way" better, and from that point on persued women.

All that to say: I don't know.

The purpose of sex and attraction is procreation, pleasure is secondary. That being said if homosexuals are not making a choice it means they are geneticly retarded. Homosexual monkeys have been recorded in over populated societys. Look at rome for example.

When it comes to religion the people of sodom were banging on the door with a perverted heart and wanted to 'know' the two angels in the ass. I think in Kings or Corinthians it says something about a man should not lay with another man as they would lay with a woman. These things are starting to be disputed by experts saying that the homosexuality of sodom was not the reason it was destroyed. Experts also said that who ever was ruling when the 'a man shall not lay with a man etc' was said said it for health purposes. So homosexuality is ok in the bible according to some.

Maybe it is good for our population control and maybe to some it is not the reason for gods wrath. To me it still feels wrong. To me a man kissing a man or a woman kissing a woman is like watching any person kiss an animal in a way that makes me feel like I'm watching my parents have sex. Which I'm sure I could get used to it but really I don't want to. It may be your choice it may not but I wish people would just keep it private. I don't believe I have ever met a gay person and not known it within the first forty minutes. Becuase of that I will have to vote for choice.

Conveniently, I had this discussion with some friends quite recently. I don't think there are enough options in the poll so I won't vote. Here are a few things we talked about/reasons why:
First, I saw Maleficient say that nobody would choose to be gay because of the inner turmoil it would cause, not to mention the fact that homosexuality isn't accepted in society in the same way as heterosexuality is. I have heard this before, and mostly agree, but I don't think it's that simple because of how complex life can be. I think it's entirely possible that a person could falsely or mistakenly think they are/aren't gay, and not realize it for a long time (maybe forever). In that case I would say it is a choice, albeit based upon feelings that are false/misrepresented/clouded/etc.
Aside from that scenario I don't think it's a choice, although I also think in some situations some males might use sex with another man as a form of domination. That's only sex though, so would probably be classified as 'homosexual sex' rather than 'homosexuality'.
An interesting thing I heard during this conversation was the opinion that it isn't the same in both sexes. He said (he being a gay male) that it was not a choice for males, he and every other gay male he knew believed they were born gay and then realized they were gay at some point in their lives. Whereas some females decide they would rather be with another woman than a man.

I really have no idea what it might be like for others, and others really have no idea what it might be like for me. But it's definately an interesting thing to discuss.

Both? Either?

There are things that turn me on that I can't help. There are things that turn me off that I can't help. There are things that turn me on because I approached them from different avenues.

I'm turned on by pregnant women (often). I've also had two children and was VERY attracted to both moms while they were pregnant. This is something that happened environmentally. This is an example of neither choice nor "no choice".

I'm turned on by redheads. I have NO idea why, but a pale redheaded women with freckles and paleish nipples... wow! This is an example of a "no choice".

I'm turned on by cuteness. Above all things, I find cuteness to be attractive. This occured by being interested in "cute" things. As I grew up, I more or less decided that cuteness was the way to go for my highest level of what I think is attractive. I seem to have chosen this route.

Another way to think about it...

A <male/female> is straight. They love the opposite sex and find them appealing. Then, after many failed relationships, they blame the gender as the root cause. They decide (consciously) to try the other side of the fence. If they end up staying with that course, it's still something they chose.

What about bisexual people who are so sheerly for the openness? Someone who enjoys sharing their sexuality with men and women (regardless of their own gender) simply so they can experience anyone and everyone? *shrug*

I don't think it's genetic. Or maybe it is sometimes, but not all times. I think sometimes it may be situational or environmental. Sometimes I think it's a specific decision. *shrug*

Eh... this is only partially true. Remember that most creatures, including other mammals, have sex based solely on procreative instinct. Humans are among the few who get additional pleasure from sexuality. Oddly enough, there are more species where the male "enjoys" sex than the female. There are MANY species where neither have any drive other than babies.

what happens if we take sex out of the picture?

sex tends to happen because of one of two things: attraction and love. what if we only look at those two things. because what i have seen and experienced, homosexually is NOT about sex, but LOVE. it deals with the people we are attracted to, that we feel that strong connection with (aka love). homosexually is not about sex, although sex is a product of it.

so take sex out of the picture . . . .


if you really feel this way, i am sure the people around you know that you feel this way, therefore why would they tell you that they are gay? there are still to this day thousands of people still in the closet, that does not make them straight. as far as "keeping it to ourselves" why should we? everything i turn on the tv, radio, or what have you, i see straight sex, why is a problem for you to turn on the tv and see gay sex? but that would be going very off topic for this discussion, so just think about it.

since this is a poll, you should have made a "I dont know".

I guess since there are gay animals in the wild (or so i've heard) then its not much of a choice.

i wish i would have thought of that, but there doesn't seem to be a way for me to add to the poll

That's awfully stupid. There's no solid proof it's a choice either.

Two out of three children in my family are bisexual. I know I've had feelings about liking girls since I was six. And it's not like either of my parents approved of homosexuality. I live in a place where it's unacceptable. Why the hell would my brother or I choose it?

Also, my boyfriend... Completely heterosexual. More heterosexual than most men, I'd say. It's not a choice for him.

Anecdotally, I know homosexuals who were attracted to the same-gender for as long as they can remember, and I know 'political' homosexuals for which it was a conscious decision.

The dichotomy of 'choice' or 'no choice' has always struck me as a bit polarised, why not 'it depends on the person'?

I have to disagree here. It's about both sex and love and for many people it's difficult to impossible to separate the sex act from the emotional component that comes with it. Both parts matter.

Love is about sex, sex is not about love.

Its the sex drive which is fundamentally different, not who one falls in love with.

This depends on the couple. For those using birth control, the purpose is pleasure, and sometimes for creating or enhancing the emotional connection between the two.

Retarded. Well done. I've been called defective, abnormal, deviant, compared to pedophiles and bestiality, but this is the first time I've been called retarded.

I'll bet I'm the first retarded person in history to get a Ph.D. from UCLA. I'm going to contact them and see if I can get a plaque commemorating my achievement.

Wow. What translation have you been reading? That's worded somewhat differently from my New Revised Standard Translation. By the way, that's not an indictment of homosexuality, it's an indictment of rape and inhospitality.

Leviticus 18:22.

I would be one of those.

The thing with population control is that that's a linked trait, and not a direct result. The biggest stressors on animals are overpopulation and a lack of food, situations that are improved by lowering the population. Thus, it's possible that mammals at some time in the past evolved a control mechanism in which stress hormones produced during gestation will make some of the male offspring homosexual, reducing the population in the next generation. The proximate cause would thus be the stress hormones, not the overpopulation, and anything causing the production of these stress hormones would thus produce the same result. Thus, global population really is no longer relevant. It's the hormone response that matters, and there are many more conditions in modern human life that can produced similar stresses in pregnant mothers so that what probably evolved as a control mechanism for local population density is now a reaction to other stimuli. So we still have a case of B->C, but there are other causes, X, Y, Z, that can lead to C.

In short, homosexuality may have evolved as a population control mechanism, but is now likely a reaction to other things producing the same stress reactions in pregnant females.

So long as they keep it within reasonable limits, I really don't mind seeing a man and woman kiss. I also have no problem with people giving an animal a kiss, or the animal equivilent, licking one's face.