While I don't agree with him, I'm shocked that so many people on the TFP lately (including well educated ones such as yourself) seem to not be able to determine the meaning of relatively simple words and concepts. Retarded, though commonly meant to imply mental defect, is a word with a very real meaning.

It appears to me that the point was that homosexuality implies genetic retardation, where one does not feel the drive to procreate, but rather love and engage in sexual situations purely for self enjoyment rather than propogation of the species.

I bet there are plenty of people with Ph.D.s from UCLA, UC Berkeley and about every other major college and university out there that have some retardation of their basic makeup, be it mentally or physically.

Now, to agree with Gilda (something I don't do terribly often), Within limits, all of those options are acceptable. You certianly aren't forced to watch your parents have sex (hopefully) and you aren't forced to watch me and my wife kiss any more or less than watching to men or two women kiss, or watching someone kiss a dog (which I'm really unsure why that would make you feel so uncomfortable).

Did you write your own biblical translation or something? I'm pretty sure the King James Bible also doesn't quite put it in that light.

Sure. The "very real" meaning of the adjective form "retarded" is "characterized by mental retardation".

It's also used as a slang pejorative for "stupid," "perverted," or "something of which I disapprove for any reason".

There are different causes for mental retardation, among them genetic, chiefly among mothers over the age of 40. Given the hostile tone and message of that post, I rather doubt that "geneticly retarded" was meant as anything other than an insult, a way of saying that homosexuals are mentally defective due to genetic factors, along with a strong implication that the slang pejorative form was also intended.

When there are neutral and insulting ways to say the same thing, and the method chosen is the most insulting one, I tend not to give the speaker/writer much benefit of the doubt.

to me, it's a choice...i have chosen to like girls. it's that simple to me. if you want to like someone of the same sex, so be it...who cares...it's your choice. i've never heard someone say that they hate the fact that they like someone of the same sex, therefore, to me it's a choice. if you are gay/bi, you choose to be.

Try quoting your source. A standard English dictionary will prefer the first option here. The word retarded, as to mean someone of low intelligence is considered colloquial and was only found to be in use in that manner in the early 20th century. The word retarded has uses in multiple scientific, medical and psychological situations, and being "genetically retarded" reads much more logically using the first meaning than saying your genes are stupid. *boggle* Fine, be offended, but as I've pointed out to you in previous threads, you always seem to be offended by the words people choose to use in relation to homosexuality. Again, homosexuality IS a retardation of human nature, using the first meaning, in so much as a human should still have the instictual drive to procreate and further the race, which homosexuality prevents. I agree with that statement. I do not believe that homosexualaity is wrong, or that people who engage in same-sex activities have mental deficiencies. *sigh*

when did you make that choice? why'd you choose to be attracted to women? did you make a list comparing and contrasting the pro's and con's of liking men and women? how'd you come to your decision?

if you want to hear someone talk about how they hate the fact they like people of the same sex, just go to any of the "christian conversion" conventions and groups (not sure what they're really called, but it's where the evangelical/fundamentalists try to turn gays into non-gays). the people that go to those things do so because they hate being gay.

Dictionary.com.

First listed definition:

Third:

Fourth

Fifth

And from your own source:

No. See my first cite above--it dates back to the early 1800's and is the only meaning cited for five of the six dictionaries listed. The American Heritage does list a derived meaning that is different.

"Retard" when used as a verb means to slow or stop. "Retarded" used as an adjective has the specific meaning of "mental handicap", has had this meaning for a couple of centuries, has been used that way in psychology and eduction for decades, and by misapplication gained the slang meaning "stupid," and more recently "not cool."

That's not how I read it. I read it as meaning "being retarded as a result of genetic defect."

Not always. Only when offensive words are chosen, those that imply moral or character judgment. It's a very common tactic to use weasel words when discussing this subject, words that have multiple possible meanings, such as abnormal, deviant, perverted, and now retarded. These words do have literal meanings that in the right context may be conotatively neutral, but are almost never used in this way. It's a clever and often effective tactic, using a word that's almost always used pejoratively in general usage while having a denotative meaning that is literally true. It allows for a defense of the usage on a literal basis if challenged, while also leaving the negative connotations.

It's very similar to saying that calling someone a man who once fathered a child is a "motherfucker" or a gay man a "cocksucker." Even if those things are literally true, the pejorative connotations that come with them carry as much weight as the literal meaning.

In the context of that post, given the obvious feelings towards homosexuality shown there, I doubt that the specific scientific meaning that you cite is the only one intended.

Yes, I'm sensitive about the language used to describe my orientation, especially those words routinely used as pejoratives. I don't like being called offensive names. I'm funny that way.

I dont know that you can say being gay/lesbian is a choice or not in a blanket statement. I know for me there was a choice to make. It was very specific for me, but I've always been a little unusual in all aspects of sexuality.

I don't think men are sexy. I think women's bodies are just prettier. For that reason I thought for a while that I might be a lesbian. But the fact is that after participating in sexual acts with men and with women, I have more pleasure with men. I just felt like, with women, there was something missing. No pun intended. So I guess I'm heterosexual, but still think that women are prettier to look at.

I think that sexuality is probably more like freckles. Yeah there has to be a predisposition there in the first place, but if you always stay out of the sun, take good care of your skin, and use massive amounts of sunscreen then you're freckles won't be as noticable. So yeah there is probably, not definiatvely, but probably something biological in there, but that would just be tendency until the other factors are introduced to build on that potential.

i made that choice when i started to become sexually aroused by women, not men. knowing that there are men out there i could like if i wanted too, makes me think that it's a choice. i chose not to be attracted to men.

i've never been to a "christian conversion" convention or even heard of those, so i have no idea what goes on there or who says what at those places about being gay.

it doesn't sound like you made a choice at all. you noticed that you were sexually aroused by women. and you "chose" to follow your biological impulse. that's not a choice. that's like saying "well, i felt like my body needed oxygen, but it was a choice to breathe."

unfortuantly, i cant' remember what the "degayification" places/seminars/counseling are actually called, hopefully someone else can help out with that. from what i've read about them though, you have gay christians going to them hoping that they can be "cured" of their affliction. and it ends up just being psychologically tramatizing.

Google search on - hate myslef gay
http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...ate+myself+gay

Do you choose to get aroused or does arousal just happen?
I think it just happens, but...
if you did choose to get aroused why did you choose to get aroused by women?
Why did you not choose to get aroused by men?

Those that say it is a choice only need to look to themselves and ask, when did I choose to be hetero? Answering honestly you have to say that you didn't. You acted on your own personal urges. Why would you default to thinking that it would be different for someone who is homosextual? Because they are different than you it must be a choice? Did you choose to have blue eyes or brown eyes? Brown hair or Blonde hair? Did you choose to be bald? Maybe more relevant, did you choose to be outgoing, shy, caring, domineering? No, these are traits you are born into and they make up who you are.

Imagine how difficult it would be for you to choose to act against your sexual urges. How can you imagine that others could do that on a regular basis. I can't.

I've actually had lengthy conversations with my brother about this very topic. Early on he claims he would have done anything to not be gay, to not be a social outcast that he felt like. How can that be deemed as a choice to be gay when inside he is tearing himself apart tyring to reconcile why he is different than everyone else? Now, later in life, he is far more comfortable with himself as is...which I think is great.

I'm gonna quote this dude 'cause it pretty much sums up what I feel about many issues.

In short.. does it matter?

Well perhaps you're a lot higher on the Kinsey scale than I am. I know I can't help being sexually aroused by women. I never have been able to. I wish I could help it. I wish I could stop thinking about it. It's horribly destructive to my day to day life, and I struggle with it. I think that attraction is chemically wired, so while I'd like to just say bullshit, I realize that my experiences do not dictate others, so I'm trying to keep an open mind.

-20 year old college male in a long distance relationship.

I wasn't trying to sneak anything in by using the word retarded. Gilda's response to that post of mine is like that classic angry black man scenerio. Where the said angry black man exagerates and twists your words to make you racist in his head and prove to himself that your racial bigotry exists.

Maybe gilda is trying to prove to her self that being lesbian is ok by lashing outwardly? I don't know but my post hardly deserved such angry attention.

I was saying the purpose to have sex is procreation. If you don't have sex to procreate and it's not a choice than there is a cross wire some where in your genetic code. Be offended if you want. My post wasn't meant to be offensive. I just didn't know any other way to say it at the time. It also seems likely that I'm not the first to accidently offend gilda in this way so I don't feel so bad.

I thought the response to my post was childish though. I'M OFFENDED. Some one give me a hug.

Does that appear to be an angry response? You're either badly misreading my tone or I did a poor job communicating it there. That wasn't anger, that was amusement. I thought that was funny and picked it up and ran with it.

However, you might want to consider that using certain loaded words with offensive connotations may interfere with clearly communicating your message.

Nah, I know that there's nothing wrong with being homosexual.

I see a lot of neutral tone there and some amused self-mockery in response to your use of the word "retarded".

You should be aware that if you post your opinion, those who disagree may post responses.

Not all the time. When I have sex with my wife, that surely isn't the purpose. The cool thing about being human rather than a purely instinctive animal is that we get to choose our purpose. The purpose of homosexual sex is pleasure, emotional connection, spiritual connection, a demonstration of love, any of those non-procreative purposes that heterosexuals have.

In male homosexuals, there may be a genetic component, and there is almost certainly a component involving gestational hormones. In female homosexuals, we really don't have enough evidence to say on a broad scale, just a lot of anectdotal evidence.

However, when you say that this is "retarded" or that there is a "cross wire", you imply that there is something wrong with homosexuality, when this is not the case.

Again, that wasn't an angry response. I dislike the word used there, and mocked its usage. Read the whole response and see if you find anger there. There isn't any.

I'd oblige, but I don't want to make you feel like you do when you see your parents kiss. Maybe there are some heterosexual women in the thread who can oblige you :p.

yeah, see i don't agree with that. but sex has not been really high on my list. the woman i desire to date, be with, are almost never the same woman that i look at and think "oh, i could have sex with her" . . . . you know?

who we are attached to are those we would fall in love with, and who we would have sex with. there are woman who have sex with woman, but don't love them, do that mean they are les? i don't think so.

don't mind me... it's my head up my ass that causes it

I've found I can't even make choices about who I am attracted to. Sometimes I'll have urges for men who logically should be repulsive to me (generally when I'm attracted to a woman though, it makes sense, she's usually hawt! :lol:)

Most men and women seem to be genetically hardwired to at least prefer humans of the opposite sex. I'm going to go with no choice here about natural preference. Social pressure may influence someone to deny preferences, which is where the element of choice may come into play.

I think it's more biological and enviormental. I also think that it's a spectrum. I think very few people are purely hetrosexual or purely homosexual. There are a lot of places to be in-between, and I think prefrences can change over time.

i don't get it. maybe i am just slow to understand this. but how can one (the sex drive) be different and not the other (who one falls in love with)?

No it doesn't. If thats how someone chooses to live their life then they might as well have been born with it!

I hate people who hate gay people. Does that make me a bad person? I hate close minded idiots who think that gay people are trying to be anti-flag and anti-norm by "choosing" to be gay. The fact of the matter is if you choose to be gay then you're not really gay. Sorry for the mini-rant but I was reminded of this thread at work today when a few coworkers were making their unconscious homophobia wildly apparent.

I have worked professionally with some homosexuals. The ones I have spoken to about this have said that they have always known that they were attracted more to males, even as a small child. Secondly, the percentage of homosexuality in the various populations around the world is around 4% (except for UK where there is a very very much higher percentage. Especially amongst their cricketers :) ). Why should it be that regular unless there is a biological determination.

You might also take on board that to be homosexual in the western world can be so difficult that no-one would voluntarily choose that orientation.

I haven't read the thread, but just thought I'd give my $.02 -- I don't like the idea that it has to be either a choice or not a choice. I suspect it's a combination of things. Most people seem to be on a spectrum, where they're usually attracted to one gender, but sometimes (or often, or rarely) attracted to someone of the opposite gender. This much is the result of 'nature' and environment. But people also choose how they react to this. Sure, the choice is not random -- someone who is only rarely attracted to males is going to have a hard time choosing to be only attracted to males. But people near the middle of the spectrum can react in a variety of ways, and how we think about our feelings, our attractions, influences how we feel those feelings.

Both, some people choose it and with other people its just the way the are.

No, I guess it really doesn't matter. I was just wondering what straight people thought about it, so I asked. I didn't give many options, because I guess I wasn't giving straight folk enough credit.

And I am VERY happy that I did ask. There are more opinions in the world than colors - and one is just as interesting to look at as the other.