Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > The Academy > Tilted Politics


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-21-2005, 04:48 AM   #1 (permalink)
Banned
 
DISCRIMINATION OR ARE U AGREE????

hi, I'm new in this forum, I register because I've seen that you guys have some good themes to discuss. But now, are u agree with the new "law" that would be: that childs from ilegal (people from other countries) parents should not have American citizenship??? or should they?? In my opinion should have citizenship because the constitution sign by benjamin franklin says that any kid born in the United States of America SHOULD have American citizenship. My mother is from colombia and my father is american, and he says that that stupid law is a DISCRIMINATION against hispanics. What you guys think about this situation???
johnathan is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 05:08 AM   #2 (permalink)
Illusionary
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
The issue is far more complex than the label of "discrimination" can possibly cover. In a short answer...yes it is discriminatory, though against hispanics alone it is not. First we need to understand that the term Illegal, is important here. As an illegal alien in this country someone is bypassing the laws we have in place , and by doing so are acting against the siciety as a whole. Do we reward this activity, and thus condone it by accepting the offspring of those in the country wrongfully?
Or do we stem the flow of illegal immigration somewhat by removing one of the reasons for attempting it?

Its a tough call....though I personally dont think citizenship should be granted.
__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
tecoyah is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 05:11 AM   #3 (permalink)
Born Against
 
raveneye's Avatar
 
The 14th Amendment would seem to make this proposed law unconstitutional: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

It would be hard to argue that that the constitution doesn't apply to illegal immigrants because the 1898 Supreme Court case United States v. Won Kim Ark established that everybody in the U.S., regardless of their status, is subject to its complete jurisdiction.

I'm sure, though, that there are lawyers out there who would be more than willing to try to argue this point, for the right fee.
raveneye is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 05:17 AM   #4 (permalink)
Born Against
 
raveneye's Avatar
 
On the discrimination question: I would say that your father is partly right, that among the many reasons people might support such a law, discrimination is certainly likely to be one of them.

Discrimination is always the big elephant in the room whenever illegal immigration is discussed.
raveneye is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 05:40 AM   #5 (permalink)
Tilted Cat Head
 
Cynthetiq's Avatar
 
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
If you got here illegally and have a child here, then the child was born here illegally. It can be decided by the courts if the child should have US citizenship.

They screen visas very stringently against people who are too full in their term for pregnancy are not granted visas.

You come here illegally, all the fruits you gain here are borne illegally. Thus if you win lotto, contests, create successful businesses, et. al. are all on the foundation of the first fact, that it was created by an illegal alien.

Do it all with a green card? That's a totally different story.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.
Cynthetiq is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 05:56 AM   #6 (permalink)
Insane
 
Dragonknight's Avatar
 
Location: Hawaii
Okay I'm Hispanic, my grandfather got his green card legally. He didn't cheat to get it. If you come here illegally and have a child here with another illegal immigrant from WHERE EVER, then your child is an illegal immigrant as well and deserves NOTHING. I'm sorry that's all there is to it. Now if you come here illegally and have a child with an American citizen then YES your child should be considered an American citizen. This never would have been a problem if people coming into this country were monitored more closely. Things like this get me angry, because now you have people saying that it's unconstitutional for there to children to say " under God" when reciting the pledge of allegiance, or having "In God We Trust" on buildings. These people (legal or not) most likely weren't born here, yet they want to change things that the VERY people that wrote that constitution believed it. Now I do admit that some things should OBVIOUSLY be changed i.e. women's rights, slaver, and others I'm sure. (only ones off the top of my head) If it's so unconstitutional for your children to say that and you want to change it, then lets change the part that allows you to be an American citizen and send your ass home. See how bad it is then. It was like that before you got here leave and it will be the same. (please don't think I'm some bible pusher because I'm not, these are just some things that get me.)
__________________
Freedom is NOT Free.
Dragonknight is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 06:33 AM   #7 (permalink)
Banned
 
did'tn God said one time the world is for everybody the we all are brothers and sisters, all the racist people will pay when the final judment came. God bless America, but why just America God bless THE WHOLE WORLD...
johnathan is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 06:36 AM   #8 (permalink)
Banned
 
this country have been too racist, is the only country that I know that is racist, like with Rosa Parks the black people, the 13 states use to have slaves. why? I kept asking my self why? and why the americans can go to our countries and nobody said nothing to them why?
johnathan is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 07:31 AM   #9 (permalink)
Insane
 
Dragonknight's Avatar
 
Location: Hawaii
It's funny that immigrants first came here to be free and have freedom. I'm cool with people having freedom, but if there were no rules, then what type of country would we live in. Who would stop the Hitlers of the world from taking over completely? Why is it racism to want the people who are paying (i.e.taxes just one example) for certian benifits (health care just one more example) to have them, and people who aren't to not have them. It's not like it's impossible to get a citizenship. Nothing in life is free and yet people always seem to think so. I'll just come over here and enjoy there life style yet not support it (back to the constitution). People have bleed for those freedoms that allows others to through around the my right this my right that speach only when it applies to there greater good. Why, because they want something for nothing, that's why.
__________________
Freedom is NOT Free.
Dragonknight is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 07:32 AM   #10 (permalink)
Tilted Cat Head
 
Cynthetiq's Avatar
 
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnathan
this country have been too racist, is the only country that I know that is racist, like with Rosa Parks the black people, the 13 states use to have slaves. why? I kept asking my self why? and why the americans can go to our countries and nobody said nothing to them why?

Really?

I guess you've never read about the cultural habits of India's caste system from Bhramas to Untouchables, or the strife in large swaths of SE Asia, Africa, Croatia, Serbia, Iceland... people are racist all over, racism knows know borders.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.
Cynthetiq is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 07:34 AM   #11 (permalink)
Lover - Protector - Teacher
 
Jinn's Avatar
 
Location: Seattle, WA
+----------+
| PLEASE |
| DO NOT |
| FEED THE |
| TROLLS |
+----------+
| |
| |
.\|.||/..


...yeaaaaaa

..
Quote:
One-shot trolls
One-shot troll messages are intended to be disruptive, and tend to be very obvious to ensure that they will receive annoyed replies:
__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel
Jinn is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 07:50 AM   #12 (permalink)
Unencapsulated
 
JustJess's Avatar
 
Location: Kittyville
Ah, naivete.
Firstly...Yes, children born here of 'visitors', legal or otherwise, are considered U.S. citizens at this point.

Frankly, I don't care how people get to be citizens if they can manage it. Do you have ANY idea how difficult it is to become a LPR? In your grandfather's time, it was different. The borders were open, the paperwork wasn't so ridiculous, it was possible. Now... Let's see. I have one gentleman from Africa originally, came here legally, and is currently out of status due to poor legal advice. He's been trying to get a green card (LPR) for almost 10 years. Why don't they want him? He's just a janitor sort. Never mind that he works harder than anyone else, is friendly, the patients and staff love him... never mind all that. No one cares.

However, the doctors, well, it takes less than a year for them to get permanent residency.

How about the international couple... she's American, he's Syrian. But because he's from a "terrorist country", they haven't been able to come to the US for 2 years so far. but my brother married a German, and that took less than a year.

Did you know that it costs about $10,000USD for the typical green card application? Not easy when you make $20K a year, especially since a majority of immigrants live/work in urban areas that cost more.

Let's not forget... the restaurant industry, the agricultural industry, among others... would be out of business if they couldn't hire illegals and pay them 4 dollars an hour for 14 hour shifts. They live 10 to a 2 bedroom apartment so they can afford it. Yes, they send money home. See below for my thoughts on THAT.

Go live in the rural Phillipines. Or Ecuador. Go ahead. And don't bring any American money, just work and live off what you make. You see how you like living in a poor country. And then try to tell me why it's so bad for people to come here.

Where do I get this info? I do immigration work for a hospital. And I have actually spoken with people, I know what they've had to do to survive.. and I'm sure I STILL don't understand.
__________________
My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.
JustJess is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 08:20 AM   #13 (permalink)
Insane
 
Dragonknight's Avatar
 
Location: Hawaii
I'm sorry to say that I didn't know that it was so very hard. I wish it was easier, because I think people should have a chance to enjoy a better life. I do however think that it should be monitored, and not easy by any means. I hope that a middle cround can be found so that it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJess
Go live in the rural Phillipines. Or Ecuador. Go ahead. And don't bring any American money, just work and live off what you make. You see how you like living in a poor country. And then try to tell me why it's so bad for people to come here.

Where do I get this info? I do immigration work for a hospital. And I have actually spoken with people, I know what they've had to do to survive.. and I'm sure I STILL don't understand.
I've lived in a tent with no ac for 15 months working on average 20 hour shifts with maybe 4-5 of sleep. I know what it's like to live shitty, really I do. I also know what it's like to work hard for what I have. This is why I say I hope that something better can be found. Do I still think that it shouldn't be too cheep or easy. Yes.
__________________
Freedom is NOT Free.
Dragonknight is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 08:22 AM   #14 (permalink)
Insane
 
Dragonknight's Avatar
 
Location: Hawaii
I'm sorry to say that I didn't know that it was so very hard. I wish it was easier, because I think people should have a chance to enjoy a better life. I do however think that it should be monitored, and not easy by any means. I hope that a middle cround can be found so that it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJess
Go live in the rural Phillipines. Or Ecuador. Go ahead. And don't bring any American money, just work and live off what you make. You see how you like living in a poor country. And then try to tell me why it's so bad for people to come here.

Where do I get this info? I do immigration work for a hospital. And I have actually spoken with people, I know what they've had to do to survive.. and I'm sure I STILL don't understand.
I've lived in a tent with no ac in 100-120 in the day and 50-60 at night for 15 total (first 8 then 7) months, working on average 20 hour shifts with maybe 4-5 of sleep. I know what it's like to live shitty, really I do. I also know what it's like to work hard for what I have. This is why I say I hope that something better can be found. Do I still think that it shouldn't be too cheep or easy. Yes.
__________________
Freedom is NOT Free.
Dragonknight is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 08:42 AM   #15 (permalink)
Banned
 
I've seen a lot of inmigrants that get pay 5 dollars an hour, and they pay the highes rent. My dad is paid for an hour like 45 dollars. I read an story in the newspaper about a man who said that he hire inmigrants because he only have to pay them 5 dollar an hour and they dont have medical care if something happend to them, instead of a American because they would have to pay an american 15 an hour, plus they got medical care. And ara protected by the law if something would happend, I'm just against racism.
johnathan is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 12:23 PM   #16 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnathan
I've seen a lot of inmigrants that get pay 5 dollars an hour, and they pay the highes rent. My dad is paid for an hour like 45 dollars. I read an story in the newspaper about a man who said that he hire inmigrants because he only have to pay them 5 dollar an hour and they dont have medical care if something happend to them, instead of a American because they would have to pay an american 15 an hour, plus they got medical care. And ara protected by the law if something would happend, I'm just against racism.
This isn't necessarily racism. If a white person with a mexican citizanship comes to the US and does the same thing, he will be subject to the same laws.

I used to do landscaping when I was in high school. I, a very, very white guy, was paid an equal amount to the illegal immigrants I worked with. I taught a couple of them english, and they were promoted above me. They went back to Mexico, and applied for green cards. They were approved and came back. Both of them are now citizens. They get paid as much as any other race with their qualifications. One of them owns a decent landscaping company in Santa Clara.
Willravel is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 01:41 PM   #17 (permalink)
Unencapsulated
 
JustJess's Avatar
 
Location: Kittyville
I'm glad you have a good idea of how nice it is to live here. It's important to be aware of reality, and I'm afraid too many people in the US... aren't.

It is pretty ridiculously difficult, and I have to agree with you - there has to be a middle ground. Monitoring and reasonable rules, but ones that can be overcome with some determination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonknight
I'm sorry to say that I didn't know that it was so very hard. I wish it was easier, because I think people should have a chance to enjoy a better life. I do however think that it should be monitored, and not easy by any means. I hope that a middle cround can be found so that it is.

I've lived in a tent with no ac in 100-120 in the day and 50-60 at night for 15 total (first 8 then 7) months, working on average 20 hour shifts with maybe 4-5 of sleep. I know what it's like to live shitty, really I do. I also know what it's like to work hard for what I have. This is why I say I hope that something better can be found. Do I still think that it shouldn't be too cheep or easy. Yes.
__________________
My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.
JustJess is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 03:22 PM   #18 (permalink)
Banned
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
If you got here illegally and have a child here, then the child was born here illegally.
How can you be so dumb, and saiy that, brother nobody born ilegally in this world, everybody has the freedom to born, I hope you were in front of me, to punch you in your face. ass***
johnathan is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 03:32 PM   #19 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnathan
How can you be so dumb, and saiy that, brother nobody born ilegally in this world, everybody has the freedom to born, I hope you were in front of me, to punch you in your face. ass***
Nice. Welcome to TFP. I hope you read our rules. If you break them, you will be banned. I hope you apologize to Cynthetiq.

BTW, you are wrong. Not everyone is born into freedom. As a matter of fact, no one I know of has been born into complete freedom unless they were orphaned in the wilderness. We all enjoy some freedoms, but those are limited to a certian extent no matter where ou live and no matter what government you live under. Your statement shows that you are ready for a fight, but you know not what you fight for.
Willravel is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 03:55 PM   #20 (permalink)
Illusionary
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnathan
How can you be so dumb, and saiy that, brother nobody born ilegally in this world, everybody has the freedom to born, I hope you were in front of me, to punch you in your face. ass***

....Fortunatley....you are not, and never will be....Bye......
__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
tecoyah is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 03:58 PM   #21 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
"He gone!"

Was just reading on the WhiteSox website and couldn't resist.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.
Ustwo is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 04:17 PM   #22 (permalink)
Loser
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tecoyah

....Fortunatley....you are not, and never will be....Bye......
why did you said that he is not? Well about the issue I think the kids from ilegals aliens, should have citizenship , I dont know that is my opinion. hispanics are nice I've known a few of them and they're nice people,

everybody have a nice day
johnny boy is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 04:19 PM   #23 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
You know maybe i'm just being paranoid.....but....could johnny boy and johnathan be one and the same?!
Willravel is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 04:54 PM   #24 (permalink)
Deja Moo
 
Elphaba's Avatar
 
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
Good call JinnKae.

+----------+
| PLEASE |
| DO NOT |
| FEED THE |
| TROLLS |
+----------+
| |
| |
.\|.||/..
Elphaba is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 05:05 PM   #25 (permalink)
Illusionary
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
welll...as a matter of fact............Buh Bye
__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
tecoyah is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 07:34 PM   #26 (permalink)
Deja Moo
 
Elphaba's Avatar
 
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
Tec, how often do "Losers" keep trying this usually? Some seem to just keep coming back over and over again and I really don't understand what is in it for them to do so.
Elphaba is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 08:02 PM   #27 (permalink)
Illusionary
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
Limited Social environment, lack of self esteem , and broken Ego....would likely be the Psycological definition.

I think they're just assholes though.
__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
tecoyah is offline  
Old 11-22-2005, 06:17 AM   #28 (permalink)
Unencapsulated
 
JustJess's Avatar
 
Location: Kittyville
I am so embarassed.... I can't believe I responded honestly to the little twerp.

Punkass.

Thanks for ditching him, Tec.
__________________
My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.
JustJess is offline  
Old 11-22-2005, 02:18 PM   #29 (permalink)
Deja Moo
 
Elphaba's Avatar
 
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
Quote:
Originally Posted by tecoyah
Limited Social environment, lack of self esteem , and broken Ego....would likely be the Psycological definition.

I think they're just assholes though.
I was a psych major. "Asshole" is the more accurate diagnosis.
Elphaba is offline  
Old 11-23-2005, 04:46 AM   #30 (permalink)
Insane
 
Dragonknight's Avatar
 
Location: Hawaii
[QUOTE=Cynthetiq]If you got here illegally and have a child here, then the child was born here illegally. QUOTE]

I have a question Cynthetiq, what if it is a child of an illegal immigrant and an American Citizen?
__________________
Freedom is NOT Free.
Dragonknight is offline  
Old 11-23-2005, 05:46 AM   #31 (permalink)
Tilted Cat Head
 
Cynthetiq's Avatar
 
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
DK, that's my opinion of the matter, not the law. It's been law for sometime that any child born here is considered an American Citizen. I have at least 2 cousins born Americans in that manner.

To answer your question, like the children of the American soldiers in Vietnam, they are considered American children and can be sponsored by their American parent. I anticipate that in the coming years we'll see more and more Afghani/Iraqi offspring of American soldiers.

I recently learned that the King of Spain made a decree stating that if you were able to prove direct Spanish lineage you were considered a Spaniard and can apply for citizenship. Thus if I chose, I could be a Spanish citizen. I'm still investigating that option.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.
Cynthetiq is offline  
 

Tags
agree, discrimination

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:11 AM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360