stevo

Raising the minimum wage by a buck isn't going to do diddly to help poverty. If you really want to fight poverty you should advocate for a minimum wage of, what was is, $13.75/hr. With all this talk about poverty this and poverty that in the midst of a minimum wage arguement, I haven't seen one of you libs argue to increase the minimum wage to such an extent. You are either for these poor people or against them, right? So why do you only want their minimum wage to be increased to $7 and not $14? Someone answer me pLeAsE!!!

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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

pan6467

Actually I have argued in past threads that the government should do 3 things to "Band-Aid" poverty for a maximum of 10 years a minimum of 5 and see if it truly helps. If not we can always return to the current system, and the rich have lost 5 years of paying shit wages and making millions.

Those 3 things are:

- Increase wages to a liveable wage (for here we'll use your $13.75, even though that is still only $28,600 a year and for a family of 4 that is sad) and either nationalize healthcare (using a sliding scale fee or make it mandatory that employers pay for F/T employees and their families. These wages and benefits are the very minimum to be paid to ALL EMPLOYEES OF EVERY COMPANY DOING BUSINESS IN THE USA. Therefore there is no "outsourcing jobs" to China, Taiwan, Indonesia, wherever, for cheaper wages. P/T under 40 hours make the same, unless under the age of 18 and still claimed as dependants, then they make 1/2 the wage but the minor working laws remain in place ... again regardless of country).

- A price freeze ON ALL GOODS for a minimum of 1 year, a maximum of 2 years. This allows people to catch up to their debt. As for small business and businesses that show TRUE economic hardship, the government offers grants and tax write offs to help them counterbalance the wages. After the time period you reevaluate the companies and allow price increases but they have to be justified.

- Finally, you put a maximum wage on CEO's. They can only make the maximum payroll of all employees combined. So if you have 100 employees and they make a combined $2,860,000 ($13.75*40*52*100) a year you recieve a $2,860,000 max for your salary.

Yeah, it may sound "non capitalistic" and not what neo-cons want, but with this version of "capitalism" we are seeing the top getting richer and richer and everyone else going farther and deeper into debt.

If we do not do something drastic to help relieve the debt and allow people to make more and not have to go into debt, then we'll drown in mediocrity and countries like China, Taiwan, Indonesia, and even Mexico , those countries we ship our cheap labor to will own us because of the trade deficits, and consumer debt we have accrued because people refused to see that our system is fucked up and promotes a rich and poor and no middle class.

Of course, I'm a radical, a dreamer, and this always gets laughs and very nasty assed comments so I shut up and watch us fall deeper. But Stevo, you asked so........ there it is.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

BTW, I truly believe there are companies out there that tried very hard to maintain good wages but were decimated by their competitors cheaper labor practices and places like Wal*Mart.

Whenever you get the chance read what Wal*Mart did to Rubbermaid.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

stevo

Thats all I wanted. Thanks.

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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

pan6467

Is that it, no other comments? No debate on my suggestions?

I noticed you clipped the main portion.

Why do you think this system that we have should not be changed or we should totally do away with the minimum wage?

What is it you believe would better our country and why?

I showed my cards. It's a simple proposal my points. If we do it, and there are those that still go heavily into debt or don't work then we can say we gave every possible chance to everyone and drop the whole issue for good.

However, I believe that people will save more, get out of debt, the economy will still move forward and tax revenue will go up while the burden is spread out more evenly, less services are needed, less failures to pay on debts that are eaten by companies and passed on to purchasers and so on. So in the end the rich pay less taxes, and quite possibly make more because of the growth and their holdings in stocks, bonds, munis and so on.

I see it as a win - win situation. The rich still stay very rich, but the middle class and poor now would have legitimate chances to advance and move upward. But again it would be up to the individual to take advantage of the 5-10 years that this was in effect. My belief is it would work and there would be no need to return to the system we are in, however, if we did at least we had a period where people could truly catch up.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

stevo

Of course I'm not going to agree with any of your points - not to insult you, but they are more suited to the old USSR than America. But skipping ahead #3, what if I have a consulting business, where my wife and I are the owners and we have no employees. We have annual revenues of $1,000,000 and together we pocket $500,000 a year in profit. Now we want to hire someone to do some basic data-entry and report proofing. This position only requires 20hrs a week. We decide to pay this part time employee $30,000 a year to work 20 hours a week entering data and proofing reports. (a very very generous deal) So are you telling me my wife and I can only take home $120,000 combined for the year. Don't you see how preposterous your suggestion is? I would be better off not hiring someone than to hire them.

On to point 2 Now what happens if there is a natural disaster, like a hurricane in FL that wipes out the tomato and pepper crops. The farmers that own these crops only have a limited supply left and it will take at least 2 months to get more product to market. But the demand for these crops remains steady. The laws of supply and demand tell us that the price for tomatoes and peppers will increase for a limited time until the supply returns to normal. Are these poor farmers supposed to suck it up and take it because of a price freeze on all goods? What about the farmer? its not his fault a hurricane wiped out his crop, but shouldn't he be able to sell what he has left for the most he can? After all, they are his peppers and tomatoes.

Do we really have to discuss what will happen to the number of employed people in this country if the minimum wage was increased to $13.75 an hour? Do we? Do we really?

Its good to dream, pan, but its better to be practical. I'm not for equality if it means we are all equally poor.

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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

flstf

In general I hate the idea of the government dictating to private industry what the payroll should be. It seems like the more power our government has the more our polititians and their (families, contributors, friends) feed from the public trough.

If we are going to raise the minimum wage to such a high level then we may as well throw in the towel and implement a full scale socialist system, which doesn't seem right to me. Although I could just be short-sighted and trying to avoid the inevitable. Even though the economic principal may be wrong what is wrong with giving the working poor a few bucks?

The more I think about it, Maybe the government should just give the wage increase to them instead of forcing the businesses to. The polititians should have no problem coming up with the money from the billions that they and their cronies are raking in through corruption. After all it is in their best interests to keep the working poor and middle class half way placated or they just might destroy the system and have to work for a living instead of taking their wealth from us.

The minimum wage increase does seem like a minor gesture like throwing a few scraps to the working poor. What solutions do you have to the growing gap between our rulers and their connections to the rest of us? Or do you think that things are fine the way they are and the situation will straighten out on it's own in time?

stevo

Cleaning house on the political side of things and implementing strong legislation that corrects the pork-barrel money wasing that goes on day in and day out. If the legislature would streamline its processes and cut spending taxes could be lowered even further. There are a number of things that can be done, its just that the people that it would affect the most are the people we have put in charge of making these changes. So the first step has to be cleaning house, while the second step would be re-writing some legislation. From there it can only get better. But I do agree with your last question - that the situation will straighten out on it's own in time. - perhaps by a sort of the process I described above. But as you know - socialist policies will not solve anything.

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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

pan6467

For smaller proprietorships such as your example, there could be ways to get around it, such as it's privately owned and the profit is yours. Just as in any small business. When I owned my pizza place I had a set salary I paid myself, but I also had unlimited access to the profits. I had no shareholders or partners to answer to so those profits were in essence mine to do with as I pleased. Same as for you and your wife in your example.

Ah yes the USSR reference....lol. They had the same problem we do now, in different ideologies but exactly the same. Business and government are one and the same. The ideal of Communism in a pure form can work on small local levels and had worked for many places for hundreds of years. However, on a national scale, it develops problems because eventually it leads to a government of totalitarianism and dictatorship.

Our problem is not leading us down that road (some could argue it is and I agree to some degree) however, we are allowing business to dictate what powers and what abilities people have. I truly believe pure capitalism can work but not on the global level that we are dealing with now. It destroys democracy and the middle class. Because in order to have democracy you cannot have a 2 class system it won't work, eventually you fall into the feudal/monarchial positions.

True and that would fall into what the government does now and that is subsidize and help the farmers, what few there are. If you look at labels more and more of our fruits and vegetables are imported anyway. I defy you to find more than just a very few companies that have labelled "all oranges/apples/ etc from the USA".... The only 1 I can think of is Florida's Natural Orange Juice, everyone else says product of USA/Argentina/Brazil/ etc. So, while I see this could be a problem I think there could be measures to help this.

Big business and the rich control what 95% of the wealth and thus control who has the money to run for any office. As we are seeing in Ohio, in Texas and so on campaign finances can turn an election totally around.

And while my ideas bring government control into the mix it could be short term, and I guarantee the rich will still be making their millions. But the playing field and buying power will be a little more level.

Why so hostile? That is what this thread is about? I have a feeling instead of debating you would rather call names and not even consider the issues brought forth.

I showed my arguments above, that it would be short term, tax revenue and economies would boom and not spiral (sorry we don't spiral we go up hit a peak then bottom out, then go up but not as far then bottom out.... and so on.... to where we are just flatassed bottoming out now, with upward spikes that barely register and their length is somewhat inconsequential.

We would not all be equally poor. the rich would still be rich as there is no limit on what they can own and how much dividend a company can pay stockholders. So the desire for a company to profit would still be there.

As I said there will be those that take advantage of the situation save and are able to move forward, there are those that won't. But we'll be able to say we did everything we could and move on.

If we sit here and do what we are then we are losing the battle fast and within a generation or 2 this nation will be nothing except a scary country with dictatorial leaders who threaten to nuke anyone into submission. And we're even going to lose that option when the debts come due. What are we going to nuke China because they want to collect on the trade deficit and the T-Bills and Bonds they bought from us? Are we going to go to war so we don't have to honor the debts we accrued? How is that better than my idea?

Also, as I said after 1-2 years, McDonald's can go to the government show exactly why that hamburger is now going to cost $9.00. I seriously doubt it will.

I am a firm believer of the opposite of what is happening. I believe you pay people more the demand on goods eventually goes up with less debt and therefore the economy truly moves forward. as it stands now, we pay barely enough to live on extend credit to the max and pray the people can pay and pray noone comes to collect the debt all at once.

But luck will end, and someone will want to collect their debt eventually and then everyone else will have to collect their debt to pay the debts they have. So eventually (and like I said I predict within 1-2 generations .... that is in our lifetime, God willing) we'll all be dirt poor and have lost everything.

At least my plan ( with adjustments by professionals that could truly work with it and figure out exactly how to make it work) we give people a fighting chance.

If it were up to me there would be a world minimum wage so as to wipe away any of these cheap offshore labor jobs. But soon we'll be in that situation, where we'll be Indonesia and China and the Phillippines, with low wages, a standard of living that is pathetic and no chance for class advancement.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"