joshbaumgartner

The Supreme Court is today hearing arguments in the case by the US DoJ to intervene in Oregon's Death With Dignity Act by preventing the use of drugs in the process of assisted suicide. DoJ cites Federal drug laws as the basis for its authority to prevent Oregon from allowing drugs to be used to kill someone. Oregon contends that the law is legitimate (has passed Supreme Court muster) and that jurisdiction over assisted suicide lies with the states. This is why the DoJ is not attempting to block the law (they failed at this before), but instead merely focussing on the use of drugs (Federally regulated) in the case.

How do you feel the Court should rule?

joshbaumgartner

Disclaimer: I am an Oregon native and this may color my opinion on this case to some degree, I admit.

I am personally wholeheartedly against the Department of Justice attempt to undermine the Death With Dignity Act. It is important to remember several important factors going into this:

1 - Oregonian citizens have passed the Act twice at the polls by significant margin.
2 - DWDA has passed court muster at the State, Federal, and Supreme Court levels.
3 - The right to legislate this matter lies Constitutionally with the states.
4 - The current case does not question Oregon's right to allow assisted suicide.

There is no questioning that this current attack is an attempt at an end run around a law that has already withstood numerous attacks and been upheld at every turn. There is also no questioning that this is a political move to satisfy supporters of the Administration, most of whom do not live in Oregon. However, while these factors may show the motive of those bringing the case, they do not invalidate the case...that instead must be done when we look at its legal merits.

This is where it falls down but also where the implications are much wider than this case. DoJ contends that Federal law allows the Federal Gov't to regulate the use of drugs and determine what does or does not constitute appropriate use. This has histroically been the status quo, authorizing the Federal involvement in the war on drugs and against the illegal trade of pharmaceuticals, as well as ensuring drug safety through consistant legislation of laws regarding FDA standards for drug testing and production. Not a bad thing, generally speaking. But then again, these are overwhelmingly matters of interstate commerce and therefore legitimate areas for Federal involvement.

The letter of Federal law may indeed authorize the Government to intervene in Oregon's case. If this is the matter, and I suspect the argument that it is is strong, then it may indeed mean current Federal drug laws are unconstitutional unless they include provisions to prevent these laws from being used to contravene those areas of authority expressly reserved for the states by the Constitution. Such a finding would open a can of worms indeed.

There is a complicating factor however, and that is that is the more widely spread medical marijuana cases, in which, IIRC, the Supreme Court has backed what I think is an unconstitutional level of federal involvement in the states' rights to determine the use of the substance. However, this is different than Oregon's case in that marijuana involves attempts to give a legal use to an otherwise illegal substance, in which all commerce was banned, while Oregon's case involves the use of legal pharmaceuticals.

I find it particularly distressing that such virulent attack on Oregon's law is coming from an Administration that claims to be Conservative, or have Conservatives abandoned States Rights as a platform since obtaining control of the Federal Government?

Fun, but not entirely relevant, facts:

- About 1 in 5 Oregonians is non-religious, the highest rate of all 50 states.
- This will be one of Roberts' first major cases, so we'll probably hear a lot about his questions, vote, and opinion on this one.

Josh

politicophile

Drug laws should be left up to the states. Congress can take its "interstate commerce" bullshit and shove...

I think I've said enough. I side with the state of Oregon. The Constitution clearly reserves this sort of power to the state governments. [/federalist rant]

__________________
The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

n0nsensical

Is it unbelievable or what that Bush appoints this guy to be chief justice, and conveniently the first case before his court is one of the Bush administration's Christian crusade pet projects to take away states' rights while Republicans CONTINUE to claim they SUPPORT states' rights and a "strict interpretation of the Constitution." Sure, if by that they mean "strictly interpreting the Constitution however Bush and the neo-cons want to interpret it in Jesus's name Amen."

Of course, we all know how the Supreme Court is going to rule, of course it's going to rule in favor of Gonzales (on whose appointment I will refrain from commenting) because the Court has ALWAYS been willing to let the Federal government do whatever the hell it wants as long as it's part of the Controlled Substances Act, which is an affront to the Constitution if you ask me. Oh, and those damn blue bloods in the 9th Circuit, they need to be taught another lesson in letting the Federal government do whatever the hell it wants. When are they going to learn? They're smart guys, they need to get with the program, this is 'Merica not some commie left coast independent republic. The formation of which sounds like a better and better idea as time passes.

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"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." --Abraham Lincoln

SirLance

This is a states issue, and I think the court will uphold Oregon.

SC cases are calendared far in advance. It is merely a coincidence that this has come up after Robert's appt. The court agreed to hear it last session.

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DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

n0nsensical

I admit it's a coincidence; it's just one unbelievably "convenient" coincidence.

__________________
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." --Abraham Lincoln

j8ear

I'm going to overlook your rediculous religious bigotry and get straight to the heart of the matter:

1. OF COURSE the federal government is doing everything it can to enforce the laws it enacted and is CHARGED WITH ENFORCING.

2. I think the controlled substances act and just about every extension of both the commerce clause and the compelling government interest principle is way out of whack of with the spirit, the letter, the intent and all common sense as far as constitutionality goes.

3. It is extremely amusing to hear a liberal whine about state's rights. Ironic, amusing, and frankly, concerning. Concerning because I suspect the irony is lost, and the hypocracy is justifiable.

Finally, imho, Oregon's assisted suicide law should stand. The federal government's controlled substance's act should be entirely rejected as unconstitutional.

-bear

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Mojo_PeiPei

I think it's a tough call.

-Jursidiction might be legit for the feds on this one, seeing as to they are the ones who regulate all of that.

-The point that the issue should be left to stand with the people who voted on it is interesting. Convienant that people feel the state or the people voting on state issues should be charged with it one way, but say when the issue is homosexual marriage the issue goes out the window.

-I find it interesting that doctors are prescribing(sp) lethal doses of medicine to people. What is it called the hypocritic oath?

I don't care if people want to die with dignity, I don't care that they may want to take their own lives, I'm cool with that. I am not in favor of the government sanctioning it in any way shape or form, really I think they have no place in the matter.

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n0nsensical

1. Not when those laws violate the ultimate law, the Constitution.
2. Then we agree.
3. I don't even know what you're trying to say here. I suspect you're being purposefully ambiguous because you don't really have much to say and just want to take a personal shot. I'm also not sure where you got the idea I'm a liberal because I'm much more libertarian.

__________________
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." --Abraham Lincoln

joshbaumgartner

Has it really been rammed down everyone's throats so hard that Conservatives are the only guardians of states rights that it is inconceivable to you that Liberals might actually be quite concerned legitimately with Federal intervention and the squashing of states rights?

Or is it just amusing and ironic to you (as well as concerning of course) that Liberals don't actually fit the stereotypical mold that so many have created for them?

As a liberal, I am often perplexed at the myriad of sterotypes made for me. According to many I want to squash states rights, banish God, hate the military, steal money from people, legalize beastiality and polygamy, destroy marriage, let drugs rule the streets, destroy commerce, and invite Osama to anger management classes. Yet, they are 'concerned' when reality counters this strawman perception...interesting.

Well, Oregon's law will stand, regardless of the ruling. The court has already said it is fine. All this will do is if they side with the Feds, is mean that while Oregon can have assisted suicide, they just can't do it with drugs. Perhaps the governor will have to order a batch of very fine Japanese swords to replace the pharmaceuticals in the job. Apparantly that would be okay, just heaven forbid we use drugs for a lethal injection! ...oh-oh!

Josh

Mojo_PeiPei

It's just more amusing to me that liberal idealogy right or wrong, has rarely been passed by the will of the people, it almost always comes at the hands of the court.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

j8ear

I'll keep this in mind. You're religion commentary led me to believe the liberal bend. Those are democrat spinning tactics...not liberty loving, federalism embracing, libertarian common sense.

If I misjudged you, I apologize.

-bear

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It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

joshbaumgartner

Not Constitutionally, as drugs weren't an issue in that document. Granted, the Feds regulate them, and I think we can mostly agree that such regulation is appropriate where interstate commerce is concerned, but is it okay to simply allow the Federal Government to simply assign itself the responsibility of regulating something and then accept that as grounds for unconstitutional activity?

[/QUOTE]
-The point that the issue should be left to stand with the people who voted on it is interesting. Convienant that people feel the state or the people voting on state issues should be charged with it one way, but say when the issue is homosexual marriage the issue goes out the window.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what the relation to gay marriage is (as that has passed some votes, failed others, so I'm not sure what we're saying with it). But the fact that people voted for something does not make it okay, if it is not Constitutional. However, it does add weight to the case, and since the role of government is to serve the people, when they express a view, it should be taken into account by the court.

Well that oath is hardly legally binding, and there is plenty of room to understand that the doctor's duty to cause no harm may well mean that allowing a person to die with dignity, versus suffer intensely without hope of reprieve. Oregon recognizes that this is a personal decision in which the state should respect the individual's right to choose their own path, and that if the person makes such a choice, medical assistance should not be denied them.

Are you saying you are okay with people ending their lives, but that it should be illegal still? Seems a bit convoluted, please explain...

Josh

joshbaumgartner

HUH!?! Forgive the tangent, as this is getting far off-topic, but your statement couldn't be more wrong...but not only in this case, where such liberal ideology has been strongly supported by the people, but in most anything else...was Social Security enacted by the courts? Was the Civil Rights Act made by the courts? Were Public Schools built by the courts? Did the courts put gay marriage amendments on the ballots?

Of course liberal ideals have been defended in the courts, and rights protected by the courts when it was brought to the courts' attention that those rights were being violated, but this is all sourced in law, most primarily in the Constitution itself.

Mojo_PeiPei

Namely rights to privacy, abortion, gay marriage and the ilk come to mind, I'm not reffering to government programs. Also civil rights acts were only made by congress many years after Judicial decisions such as Brown v. Board of Education.

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joshbaumgartner

Brown v. BoE was based on Constitutional law. The Constitution was not written by the courts, but yes, the courts did play an important role in protecting rights guaranteed by the Constitution in that case, where they were being violated by the government. The 14th Amendment was not passed by the courts, it was passed by Congress.

Gay marriage wasn't put on the ballots by the Courts, and gay marriage and civil union laws were passed by Legislatures, not courts, so I'm not sure why you are citing it.

Privacy and abortion are cases where the courts did protect the rights of the citizens in the face of government attempts to usurp them in a manner lacking Constitutional authority. Obviously, Conservatives debate the judgement of Constitutionality in these cases, and that's a legitimate debate. However, to say that the courts came up with this stuff out of thin air with no law backing their rulings is ludicrous. I'm sorry if Conservatives don't agree with every judgement of the courts, and want to claim that such judgements are the basis of liberal judicial activism and an attempt by the courts to 'make law', but its simply not the case.

Mojo_PeiPei

Well to quickly end the thread jack with one last point, the right to privacy which has led to much ruling on abortion and homosexual decisions is no where mentioned in the constitution.

ANd I don't think these people committing suicide should be illegal. I don't want the government lending any support to it legally or otherwise, in anyway facilitating it, they should stay out.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

joshbaumgartner

Your last point is taken on the thread-jack...now on this matter...

I guess what I'm asking is how do you propose to have this encoded. Right now its illegal in 49 states, so that constitutes government intervention in the matter. Oregon has legalized it, but with strict regulation to prevent abuse. If you don't have any rules, than it means that anything goes. If you deny medical assistance for those wishing death with dignity, you are still punishing them, but if you allow it, you have to have rules. I mean how exactly to you envision this regime of legal suicide without any government involvement? Do you try and prevent abuse? What is okay or not and how is it enforced? Unless maybe you are advocating anarchy, there has to be some kind of law involved in these situations.

Elphaba

Josh, I favor Oregon's law, but I am not as convinced as you are that the Fed's will lose the battle. I liked your ceremonial death by sword bit of humor, but isn't it true that assisted suicide involves a prescription of a lethal amount of a drug? Should the Fed's win, I believe there would be a serious "chilling" effect on doctors if they are risking prosecution. Has Oregon found a way around this?

ObieX

This could, hopefully, lead to a change in the way drugs are regulated in this country. Maybe unlikely as a direct result of this case, but it will raise issues that may not go away for a while (and are already on some people's minds).

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joshbaumgartner

Thanks for pointing this out! I should clarify that despite my fervent belief in what the right way for the Court to decide is, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm totally bullish on the prospect that they will decide that way. And yes, while the law will remain technically in effect and legal, if the Feds succeed it will indeed neuter the law in effect for all intents and purposes. Of course, since the law is still on the books and as legal as ever, when the Administration changes its position (or just when the Administration changes), and the Feds stop intervening, practise under the law can continue.

Undoubtedly, Oregon will not stop trying to challenge the Federal involvement so long as it deems that involvement to violate its rights, but I don't know what their strategy is, should they lose this case.

Josh

joshbaumgartner

Obie, excellent point, I tried to allude to that, and I think some others have made comments that lead me to believe that if the Court rules for Oregon, depending on how they cite it and how the opinion is written, it could have ramifications for drug policy in many other areas. That the Fed is assuming since it has excercised this power against other drugs and in so many ways before that it is almost taking this power for granted. Should they be denied it, all kinds of drug war tactics and pharmeceutical regulation issues will have to be revisisted, and we may not like all the results. However, I suspect that even if they rule in favor of Oregon, the opinion will be written to avoid this to some degree.

pan6467

Same as with the medicinal marijuana.... If a state's population voted FOR the issue the Feds have NO RIGHT whatsoever to overturn that election unless it breaks a CONSTITUTIONAL law and not some fucking Federal mandate.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

politicophile

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by a "Federal mandate". If you mean an excessively controlling, but technically constitutional law, then you are incorrect. There is no problem with federal law being used to override the wishes of the population of a state, provided that the power in question is granted to the Congress by the Constitution.

If, on the other hand, you mean to say that "Federal mandate[s]" are unconstitutional federal laws, then you are, of course correct.

I imagine what we are dealing with here is an interstate commerce issue, which seems like BS to me, but what do I know about Con Law?

__________________
The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

pan6467

I don't see how it can possibly be interstae commerce. They barely got the medicinal marijuana on that.

How will they call this interstate? What because the drugs manufactured cross state lines? That truly is stretching it.

What amazes me most is BushCo and these Neocons who call for less government interference, more states rights and true interpretation ("original intent") of the Constitution are the ones so gung ho to overturn VOTERS WILL.

Just boggles my brain how people can support the power hungry man who believes the voters voices just don't matter.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Mojo_PeiPei

While on the issue of original intent, show me were the right to assisted suicide is constitutionally protected? .... Protected, hell mentioned, insinuated, guarenteed, afforded. I know you are secured in life and liberty, don't reckon death is up there.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

pan6467

It is not my duty to show you anything it is the Federal gov't DUTY TO THE PEOPLE to show us where the Constitution and original intent give them the right to outlaw it.

The PEOPLE should not have to prove the Constitution gives us a right..... it is the Federal Gov't that needs to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that that right is theirs to take away.

And I don't see it in this case.

I cannot understand these strict "Conservatives" who believe the people have to prove ANYTHING, if that is the case you are giving the Federal government far far too much and taking away far far too much from the people.

Original intent was to have the Federal government have as little control as possible. And the Conservatives love to say this but when it is a case they want the Fed to be involved in they change tunes and demand the people show where we have beeen given the right and that is bassackwards.

So show me, where does it say the Federal government has the right to take away from me the right to die with dignity. The state's populace voted and said I have that right.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

analog

The major issue I see is this... since they've been unable to defeat the DWDA time after time, they're now going after it's heart, the thing that makes it beat. Part of the reason Oregon has won time after time is it has proven the pure effectiveness and safety of the use of the drugs to achieve the desired expiration. If the DoJ gets its way, they will no longer be able to assist suicides using drugs, and will pretty much be impotent... and I have no doubt that, if that were to happen, the DoJ would once again go after the DWDA's throat, and then they would have the upper hand, because then the state would have to prove they can do it so it's safe and effective, but without using drugs.

If they can't use drugs, how could it be done? 12-guage shotgun blast to the face? C-4 enema? Napalm bath? Defenestration? (one of my favorite words, btw)

j8ear

I am really concerned with this line of conservative reasoning. It seems to be very popular.

I'm going to point you to the ninth ammendment, which says the following:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Ad the tenth ammendment, which says the following:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

This means that just because it isn't in the constitution doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The constitution does three things:

1. Ennumerates specific rights retained by the people.
2. Limits the reach of the federal government.
3. What it is silent on is left TO THE STATES OR THE PEOPLE.

So I'm going to answer your question with a challenge:

Show us where in the constitution it gives the federal government the right to regulate assisted suicide, or even prohibits the states from doing so. Should you fail this challenge, and you will, that right is retained by the people or the states EXCLUSIVELY.

While I agree with you here Pan, I must direct you to some very disturbing precedent that has completely corrupted the doctrine of interstate commerce.

1. Sen Diane Fienstien is extremely concerned that somehow interstate commerce would not be valid in the enactment of federal regulations prohibitting firearms within a certain distance from schools. Nothing interstate or commercial about it. See some of her qgrandstaning in Robert's confirmation hearing.

2. The federal government has used interstate commerce reasoning to prevent development entirely within a single state, under the guise of protecting a single species (endangered species act) which exists ONLY within a single states borders.

3. The federal government used interstate commerce to rebuff California's medical marijuana laws. This was NON-COMMERCIAL in nature, and obviously conducted exclusively within a single states borders.

This is compelling evidence, that the plain and common sense meaning of these two words, Interstate and Commerce, really means nothing of the sort...since it also includes NONCOMMERCIAL activity, conducted entirely intrastate.

/nice rebuff of mojo btw...

Go figure.

-bear

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snowy

As an Oregonian, I really see this as a states' rights issue. We Oregonians have said at the polls not ONCE, but TWICE (and by a large margin each time) that Death with Dignity is legal in our state.

I hope the court sees our side on this, because this really is an issue (regardless of drug regulations) that should be left up to the people and to the state to decide.

Trust me...we Oregonians have already debated this to the death. We know what we want...and we want the right to decide when we die.

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pan6467

Nice, argument and more concise than mine above.

I truly don't see how anyone can argue it is the burden of the people to show where their rights are protected and not the Fed's burden to prove that right is theirs to take away.




In all the above mentioned examples, you used Bear, dangerous precedents are being set, I have to agree.

I truly believe the Fed would rather treat us all like idiots and dictate what we can or cannot do. But they do so not to control but to keep order.

Whereas, I am a firm believer in the people's voice and that the people know their communities and will keep order much better by having their voices heard.

If in Oregon this law gets abused (which I don't see happening), I am sure the people are smart enough to go and eventually vote against it.

Overall Bear, I think we have the same opinion and mindset over all this......

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Ustwo

So true

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SecretMethod70

I can only hope that if the SCOTUS rules against the wishes of the people of Oregon it sets the wheels in motion for some real change. Somehow, I can see the next major political struggle in America starting there. Not saying there aren't other places I could see it starting too, but I think the culture of Oregon might just be independent-minded enough that the people would have the guts to do it.

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Le temps détruit tout

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joshbaumgartner

Well I've heard it refered to as the Socialist Republic of Oregon on more than one occaission...lol. I think a friend of mine was not far off when she referred to Oregonians as a bunch of 'rugged individualist conservative liberals'.

Elphaba

Today's paper stated that based upon the direction Rogers' questions were going, he is signaling that he will side with the Feds. If that is true, the outcome will be decided by either O'Connor or Miers.

It is speculated that even though O'Connor heard the arguments, there may be a move to rehear the case for Miers to give her opinion.

Mojo_PeiPei

It's rather easy. All the Feds need do is use the interstate commerce law, or who knows some drug regulation law. They only need establish how Oregon's state law is somehow in violation of federal law, because state law is trumped by Fed. Law like California Medicinal Pot.

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Elphaba

Mojo, that is exactly what they will do because the Feds control narcotics under the interstate commerce clause.

j8ear

So, in essense nothing is beyond federal reach?

Rediculous.

You have failed the challenge. You are nothing more then a liberal with a different label. Ends justified by ANY MEANS.

-bear

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It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

j8ear

You (mojo and Elph) are both probably right.

I am of the opinion, that this limitless reach of interstate commerce MUST BE REIGNED IN. It is out of control, unrecognizable, completely illogical, and beyond the common man's comprehension.

Oh well. I have plenty of theories as to why it won't happen. Both the liberals and the conservatives, two groups who differ in name only, need this all encompassing limitless definition of interstate commerce to do anything which gets them re-elected.

I am beginning to appreciate n0nsensicals signature more and more all the time.

Where do we sign up for a musket and a three corner hat, so we can get this revolution started?

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

Elphaba

I agree, Bear, that the IC clause was wrong the first time it was used (a farmer's personal wheat crop), and every single time it has been used since to overrule an intrastate activity. It's so damned imbedded in the legal code now that it just may take some muskets to route it out.