N.O. is "abortion-free, Mardi Gras-free, & sodomite-free" - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

CShine · 09-03-2005, 12:58 AM

Let us now bow to our knees and thank Almighty God for his bigoted gifts to America. Let us always remember in our prayers that the Supreme Court = Satan and that The Lord has used hurricane Katrina to reject our nation's sins and denounce the Supreme Court for the bastion of Satan that it is. Praise be to God!!!

Quote:

Two Christian leaders in New Orleans are testifying to God's mercy in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. One suggests that the death toll could have been much higher had it not been for God's mercy -- and the other that God may have used the hurricane to purge wickedness from the city.

Chuck Kelley is president of New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, with facilities located near the southern banks of Lake Pontchartrain and in Chalmette, east of the city. Baptist Press reports that Kelley now finds himself homeless and with only a few personal belongings following Hurricane Katrina's devastating blow to the New Orleans area. But the seminary leader says he is able to discern God's hand in the situation.

"Imagine what would have happened if [New Orleans] had taken a direct hit," he tells BP. "The levee did not break until after the storm was clear and the winds had died down and the rescue workers were able to get out." Had the levee given way during the hurricane, he says, "untold thousands of people" would have been killed.

"It's a terrible tragedy," Kelley says of the devastation in and around New Orleans, "and we still don't know the scope of it -- but the evidences of God's mercy are there. We rejoice in the fact that He has got the whole world in His hands, including the city of New Orleans and [the seminary]."

Kelley's faith, despite his personal situation, remains steadfast. He explains to Baptist Press that he is confident of God's provision. "When we get to the end of this story," he says, "the last paragraph is going to be a testimony to the greatness and glory of our God, who is able to do all things well, and able to provide every need."

Rev. Bill Shanks, pastor of New Covenant Fellowship of New Orleans, also sees God's mercy in the aftermath of Katrina -- but in a different way. Shanks says the hurricane has wiped out much of the rampant sin common to the city.

The pastor explains that for years he has warned people that unless Christians in New Orleans took a strong stand against such things as local abortion clinics, the yearly Mardi Gras celebrations, and the annual event known as "Southern Decadence" -- an annual six-day "gay pride" event scheduled to be hosted by the city this week -- God's judgment would be felt.

“New Orleans now is abortion free. New Orleans now is Mardi Gras free. New Orleans now is free of Southern Decadence and the sodomites, the witchcraft workers, false religion -- it's free of all of those things now," Shanks says. "God simply, I believe, in His mercy purged all of that stuff out of there -- and now we're going to start over again."

The New Orleans pastor is adamant. Christians, he says, need to confront sin. "It's time for us to stand up against wickedness so that God won't have to deal with that wickedness," he says.

Believers, he says, are God's "authorized representatives on the face of the Earth" and should say they "don't want unrighteous men in office," for example. In addition, he says Christians should not hesitate to voice their opinions about such things as abortion, prayer, and homosexual marriage. "We don't want a Supreme Court that is going to say it's all right to kill little boys and girls, ... it's all right to take prayer out of schools, and it's all right to legalize sodomy, opening the door for same-sex marriage and all of that.”

http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/9/22005b.asp

cyrnel · 09-03-2005, 01:56 AM

I don't have a problem with Kelley. He's coping in a positive way according to his faith and likely giving comfort to his followers.

Shanks on the other hand...well, some people loot, some rape, some...

Ustwo · 09-03-2005, 05:53 AM

100% troll post, thanks CS.

tecoyah · 09-03-2005, 06:18 AM

“New Orleans now is abortion free. New Orleans now is Mardi Gras free. New Orleans now is free of Southern Decadence and the sodomites, the witchcraft workers, false religion -- it's free of all of those things now," Shanks says. "God simply, I believe, in His mercy purged all of that stuff out of there -- and now we're going to start over again."

I must admit....this is a bit over the edge.Almost as if he is dismissing the destruction as a blessing, rather disgusting. But, generally Ustwo has a point....this thread is a troll attempting to place Christianity in a bad light because of a few zealots. If it wasnt for the plethora of threads doing the same to the Muslim faith.....I would simply delete it. Perhaps we can all use this as a launching point for a disussion that actually has political bearing.

We Shall See.

thatoneguy · 09-03-2005, 06:32 AM

Wow... it's hard to believe that anyone could really think that is what happened in New Orleans, but then again, people are a lot weirder than I usually give them credit for.

I'd say it's completely asinine to say things like that, especially in the wake of a tragedy like the one in NO. I'm sure it comforts the families that lost their homes and loved ones to know that it's really their fault and not just something that happened to them.

pan6467 · 09-03-2005, 06:42 AM

Personally, I find it sickening and a sad comment on our great country when people use such a horrendous tragedy for their own political and personal agendas.

What's even worse is that there are 1000's that buy into the bullshit.

irateplatypus · 09-03-2005, 06:55 AM

definitely a troll post. if this thread goes anywhere, it's a credit to the TFP community in spite of the author's intent.

tecoyah, i think your comparison to muslim extremism is unjust. Shank said that they should "stand up" against that which conflicts with their moral code. this is what the "zealot" recommended to his congregation...

Quote:

Christians should not hesitate to voice their opinions about such things as abortion, prayer, and homosexual marriage.

what could be more civil? what could be more sober? more American? when our preachers call for the blood of non-believers, when they use the innocent as shields, when they make a death-cult of martydom... then and only then will such comparisons be relevant. i do not understand the constant need to equivocate on every issue.

Stompy · 09-03-2005, 07:02 AM

I love it how when people don't agree, they cry "troll!! troll!"

Ah.. classic.

As for the people who said that... typical extremists. The same type of thinkin where people go, "oooh you got into a car accident! That's gods way of telling you that you sin too much!" Riiiight..

Bill O'Rights · 09-03-2005, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

I love it how when people don't agree, they cry "troll!! troll!"

What exactly about this thread do you not consider a troll? You have a Pagan...calling it a troll. You have a pretty devout christian...calling it a troll. I, an athiest...am calling it a troll. I just don't see how this thread encourages discourse.

I'm defering to tecoyah, here. Personally, I'd have closed it immediately. So...you guys have an opportunity to pull this piece of flame bait out of the pits in which it was forged, and turn it into something worthwhile. Apparantly tecoyah thinks that you can do it, and I'm willing to give it a shot. Let's see what you guys can do with this.

/me sits back, with a bowl of popcorn, to watch the show.

pan6467 · 09-03-2005, 07:52 AM

I don't see it so much as a troll as someone expressing their views on how right winged religious fanatics are making claims that this was some form of punishment.....

Now whether or not his opinion will bring about trolling and fighting and flaming is another thing.... but just his opinion and so far what has been said (minus the post where it is called a troll) I don't see as any problem.

I think the fanaticism is being called upon and there's no true defending it..... i believe these men of God have every right to say as they wish.... it just worries and scares me that there are so many that believe what they say.

Ustwo · 09-03-2005, 08:57 AM

The question here is actions vrs deeds.

It doesn't matter if you think the hurricane was caused by pure chance, the god of the sea taking revenge on a costal town that does not worship him, the earth mother upset with oil drilling, or a christan god wiping out sin. Such mental justifications are part of human nature.

This is of course why tecoyah's comparison is rather weak.

There is a big leap between saying 'God is unhappy' and 'God is unhappy, go kill people!'.

tecoyah · 09-03-2005, 09:10 AM

So...the actual difference may be, "God killed them/Thus I am happy" vs. "God wants ME to kill them/ thus I am happy"?

We still end up with the reality that someone agrees that the deaths are OK, or part of Gods' plan. This is the correlation I was pointing out, whether correct or not, it is one I see. I am of the opinion that there is little difference on a fundamental level, they both condone death at some Gods' whim.

Again....just my opinion.

pan6467 · 09-03-2005, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

So...the actual difference may be, "God killed them/Thus I am happy" vs. "God wants ME to kill them/ thus I am happy"?

We still end up with the reality that someone agrees that the deaths are OK, or part of Gods' plan. This is the correlation I was pointing out, whether correct or not, it is one I see. I am of the opinion that there is little difference on a fundamental level, they both condone death at some Gods' whim.

Again....just my opinion.

I agree a true follower of Christ would never be happy nor use a fellow man's death to advance agenda.... as some zealots who say they are followers of Christ do (whether in support of these pastors or in their own words).

However, I believe Christ himself said that you should pray for your enemies and if I am not mistaken said something to the effect "judge not lest you be judged harsher".

Ustwo · 09-03-2005, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

So...the actual difference may be, "God killed them/Thus I am happy" vs. "God wants ME to kill them/ thus I am happy"?

We still end up with the reality that someone agrees that the deaths are OK, or part of Gods' plan. This is the correlation I was pointing out, whether correct or not, it is one I see. I am of the opinion that there is little difference on a fundamental level, they both condone death at some Gods' whim.

Again....just my opinion.

Its a huge difference...I would hope it was apparent.

If I didn't care if all sinners died and was part of 'gods plan' then I'd be a bit of a loon.

If I wanted all sinners to die and killed them myself I'd be a pyschopathic killer.

In one you are expect god to take care of the problem, in the other you are gods agent of destruction.

Who would you rather live next to as a non-believer Techoya?

hannukah harry · 09-03-2005, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Its a huge difference...I would hope it was apparent.

If I didn't care if all sinners died and was part of 'gods plan' then I'd be a bit of a loon.

If I wanted all sinners to die and killed them myself I'd be a pyschopathic killer.

In one you are expect god to take care of the problem, in the other you are gods agent of destruction.

Who would you rather live next to as a non-believer Techoya?

i'm missing the distinction... really, it seems to come down to gods method of destruction being a hurricane, cancer, whatever, vs. his method being a man with a gun or a bomb strapped to his chest. either way, nature or man (which is a part of nature) is just doing gods bidding.

filtherton · 09-03-2005, 11:03 AM

I think what ustwo's trying to say is that muslims are worse because they are more proactive. Though, to be fair, we did just have one of the most well-known american christian leaders calling for the assassination of the democratically elected leader of a foreign country.

I think both arguments generally miss the point since the people who say things like this are generally representative of small minority of their fellow believers.

tecoyah · 09-03-2005, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Its a huge difference...I would hope it was apparent.
The difference is indeed apparent....though the mindset of willful hatred is the same.
If I didn't care if all sinners died and was part of 'gods plan' then I'd be a bit of a loon.
A Loon, yes....and a Killer in mind
If I wanted all sinners to die and killed them myself I'd be a pyschopathic killer.
again...I agree
In one you are expect god to take care of the problem, in the other you are gods agent of destruction.
In My Opinion ,through inaction and acceptance....you become an agent as well, though perhaps an inactive one.
Who would you rather live next to as a non-believer Techoya?
I would prefer neither, but if I had to choose I would of course pick the one less likely to kill me outright....as you know. But Utsow, They both wish me dead.

................again...My opinion

Locobot · 09-03-2005, 11:09 AM

Wow, put this guy on the extremist Christian asshole list next to Falwell and Robertson. I really thought that this wing of the Christian faith had the good sense to keep their mouths shut over the New Orleans disaster. Apparently not. It's funny the level of logical parsing one has to got through to make a comment like this. How does he explain why all the bible belt areas around N.O. were so badly damaged? And then why was the French quarter, certainly the city's center for "sin", largely spared? It seems like the only person who's really trolling here is Shanks. I wonder how damaged his church is.

We've seen virtually the same response from Christians regarding 9/11, earthquakes in Iran, and last year's tsunami in Asia.

Locobot · 09-03-2005, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I think what ustwo's trying to say is that muslims are worse because they are more proactive. Though, to be fair, we did just have one of the most well-known american christian leaders calling for the assassination of the democratically elected leader of a foreign country.

I think both arguments generally miss the point since the people who say things like this are generally representative of small minority of their fellow believers.

Very true, but with muslims I always see the "where is the public outcry from moderates?" argument being used as justification for wholesale dismissal of anyone muslim. Of course there is public outcry from both moderate muslims and christians, but no one is listening to the moderates.

Lebell · 09-03-2005, 11:27 AM

I also see a "troll", but I too will defer to tecoyah.

I think Ustwo's point about the distinctions is valid, but I also think there is a terribly thin line between the two types of extremists.

Ustwo · 09-03-2005, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

I also see a "troll", but I too will defer to tecoyah.

I think Ustwo's point about the distinctions is valid, but I also think there is a terribly thin line between the two types of extremists.

Perhaps the line is thin Lebell but it is a line written in the blood of innocents.

Its all the difference in the world to me. I don't care if you don't like me, I do care if you are trying to kill me.

maximusveritas · 09-03-2005, 12:07 PM

There is certainly a disinction, but you've got to realize that this is how Christian leaders act when they are essentially in control of the most powerful country in the world. How would they act if that were no longer the case?
It is a thin line and it's up to us moderates here in America to call them on their BS BEFORE that line is crossed.

Elphaba · 09-03-2005, 12:23 PM

What I found interesting in the article is the juxtaposition of two Christian leaders who quite clearly view God in fundamentally different ways. Kelley's faith is in a benevolent God and that it was God's mercy that lessened the impact of the hurricane. Shanks' faith rests in a wrathful God that produced the hurricane to punish the sinners. Both men see God's hand at work, but their belief in God's intent could not be more opposed.

To echo Pan, "he who is without sin, can cast the first stone."

pan6467 · 09-03-2005, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Its a huge difference...I would hope it was apparent.

There is no difference in my mind between someone or something (i.e. nature, disease etc.) and the person who uses it to spread fear, treat it as if it were "God punishing" and making a political/social statement using the dead as examples..... (all of which I believe the above preacher did).

Quote:

If I didn't care if all sinners died and was part of 'gods plan' then I'd be a bit of a loon.

Not a loon just not a true follower of Christ, for in his teachings we are supposed to care about ALL people and wish them no harm.

Quote:

If I wanted all sinners to die and killed them myself I'd be a pyschopathic killer.

Or an abortion clinic bomber.

Quote:

In one you are expect god to take care of the problem, in the other you are gods agent of destruction.

True, but in both scenarios you are hoping and "praying" that your "fortunes" are turned and you are looked better upon by God....... even though you are in effect doing so at another's untimely demise. (Which again in Christ's teachings is frowned upon by HIM.)

Quote:

Who would you rather live next to as a non-believer Techoya?

I know you didn't ask me, but my answer is neither, and if I HAD to choose I would take the overt killer and not the prayer....

Why?

Because with the prayer he's untrustworthy and would be slimy and 2 faced enough to "stab" you in your back multiple times and lie to your face about it every time..

However with the killer you know exactly where you stand the whole time.... or at least I like the odds that I would better.

djtestudo · 09-03-2005, 10:03 PM

There's a reason the story of Sodom and Gommorah was included in the Bible; to use as justification for acts that someone may consider immoral. That guy probably believes he witnessed the same thing.

Too bad he couldn't have been turned into a piller of salt.

Elphaba · 09-03-2005, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

There's a reason the story of Sodom and Gommorah was included in the Bible; to use as justification for acts that someone may consider immoral. That guy probably believes he witnessed the same thing.

Too bad he couldn't have been turned into a piller of salt.

I think that is the key difference between these two Christian leaders. One focuses on the teachings of the New Testament; the other focuses on the Old Testament.

filtherton · 09-04-2005, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Perhaps the line is thin Lebell but it is a line written in the blood of innocents.

Its all the difference in the world to me. I don't care if you don't like me, I do care if you are trying to kill me.

What does this even mean? Are all muslims trying to kill you?

Willravel · 09-04-2005, 02:13 PM

Ustwo, if Muslim extreemists knew you, they might be afraid of you killing them. Of course this is about a few pastors who have opinions on the hurricane, not killing or being killed by muslim extreemists.

The obvious hole in the argument of the pastors is that good Christians died along with those they stereotyped. Not only were the 'sodomites' washed away, some of their own parishners were lost, as well. Were they deserving of God's wrath as well? Or perhaps, they are not the voice of God. These people should be praying for those who have died and those who are in danger instead of trying to grab at thair 15 minutes of fame. Our church this morning observed 10 minutes of silent prayer and respect for those hurt by the hurricane.

Marvelous Marv · 09-04-2005, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

I also see a "troll", but I too will defer to tecoyah.

Am I the only one who considers this to be a (very immature) troll?

Under 18
Didnt even notice
Oh, and isn't there a person under 18 in it?

pan6467 · 09-04-2005, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

Am I the only one who considers this to be a (very immature) troll?

Pic removed...under 18
Didnt even notice
Oh, and isn't there a person under 18 in it?

While the picture is definately arousing emotion on both sides and shows great ignorance, hatred and immaturity (all of which the same people who like that picture say BushCo has) it is, what it is.

I have seen the Right do the exact same thing with pictures of Bill and Hillary and I have a feeling you would applaud those and criticize the critics as not being able "to take a joke" or if the mods deleted it saying "censorship, proof they are Lefties and biased".

There's only 1 truth to that picture (IMHO)...... look at it and figure out why we have become so polarized that in the mouths of madness and one of the worst tragedies in US history we have to have people react and be so divisive as this.

Marvelous Marv · 09-04-2005, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

I have seen the Right do the exact same thing with pictures of Bill and Hillary and I have a feeling you would applaud those and criticize the critics as not being able "to take a joke" or if the mods deleted it saying "censorship, proof they are Lefties and biased".

While I enjoy political humor, I consider humor based on a tragedy such as Katrina, and using the misery of someone in this way, to be in very poor taste.

Just more of the "blame the other party for everything" mindset.

09-03-2005, 01:56 AM	#2 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	I don't have a problem with Kelley. He's coping in a positive way according to his faith and likely giving comfort to his followers. Shanks on the other hand...well, some people loot, some rape, some... __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

09-03-2005, 05:53 AM	#3 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	100% troll post, thanks CS. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-03-2005, 06:18 AM	#4 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	“New Orleans now is abortion free. New Orleans now is Mardi Gras free. New Orleans now is free of Southern Decadence and the sodomites, the witchcraft workers, false religion -- it's free of all of those things now," Shanks says. "God simply, I believe, in His mercy purged all of that stuff out of there -- and now we're going to start over again." I must admit....this is a bit over the edge.Almost as if he is dismissing the destruction as a blessing, rather disgusting. But, generally Ustwo has a point....this thread is a troll attempting to place Christianity in a bad light because of a few zealots. If it wasnt for the plethora of threads doing the same to the Muslim faith.....I would simply delete it. Perhaps we can all use this as a launching point for a disussion that actually has political bearing. We Shall See. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

09-03-2005, 06:32 AM	#5 (permalink)
thatoneguy Crazy Location: Omaha, NE	Wow... it's hard to believe that anyone could really think that is what happened in New Orleans, but then again, people are a lot weirder than I usually give them credit for. I'd say it's completely asinine to say things like that, especially in the wake of a tragedy like the one in NO. I'm sure it comforts the families that lost their homes and loved ones to know that it's really their fault and not just something that happened to them. __________________ "Thank you for flying Church of England, cake or death?"

09-03-2005, 06:42 AM	#6 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Personally, I find it sickening and a sad comment on our great country when people use such a horrendous tragedy for their own political and personal agendas. What's even worse is that there are 1000's that buy into the bullshit. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

09-03-2005, 07:02 AM	#8 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	I love it how when people don't agree, they cry "troll!! troll!" Ah.. classic. As for the people who said that... typical extremists. The same type of thinkin where people go, "oooh you got into a car accident! That's gods way of telling you that you sin too much!" Riiiight.. __________________ I love lamp.

09-03-2005, 07:52 AM	#10 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	I don't see it so much as a troll as someone expressing their views on how right winged religious fanatics are making claims that this was some form of punishment..... Now whether or not his opinion will bring about trolling and fighting and flaming is another thing.... but just his opinion and so far what has been said (minus the post where it is called a troll) I don't see as any problem. I think the fanaticism is being called upon and there's no true defending it..... i believe these men of God have every right to say as they wish.... it just worries and scares me that there are so many that believe what they say. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

09-03-2005, 08:57 AM	#11 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	The question here is actions vrs deeds. It doesn't matter if you think the hurricane was caused by pure chance, the god of the sea taking revenge on a costal town that does not worship him, the earth mother upset with oil drilling, or a christan god wiping out sin. Such mental justifications are part of human nature. This is of course why tecoyah's comparison is rather weak. There is a big leap between saying 'God is unhappy' and 'God is unhappy, go kill people!'. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-03-2005, 09:10 AM	#12 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	So...the actual difference may be, "God killed them/Thus I am happy" vs. "God wants ME to kill them/ thus I am happy"? We still end up with the reality that someone agrees that the deaths are OK, or part of Gods' plan. This is the correlation I was pointing out, whether correct or not, it is one I see. I am of the opinion that there is little difference on a fundamental level, they both condone death at some Gods' whim. Again....just my opinion. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

09-03-2005, 11:03 AM	#16 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I think what ustwo's trying to say is that muslims are worse because they are more proactive. Though, to be fair, we did just have one of the most well-known american christian leaders calling for the assassination of the democratically elected leader of a foreign country. I think both arguments generally miss the point since the people who say things like this are generally representative of small minority of their fellow believers.

09-03-2005, 11:09 AM	#18 (permalink)
Locobot is awesome!	Wow, put this guy on the extremist Christian asshole list next to Falwell and Robertson. I really thought that this wing of the Christian faith had the good sense to keep their mouths shut over the New Orleans disaster. Apparently not. It's funny the level of logical parsing one has to got through to make a comment like this. How does he explain why all the bible belt areas around N.O. were so badly damaged? And then why was the French quarter, certainly the city's center for "sin", largely spared? It seems like the only person who's really trolling here is Shanks. I wonder how damaged his church is. We've seen virtually the same response from Christians regarding 9/11, earthquakes in Iran, and last year's tsunami in Asia.

09-03-2005, 11:27 AM	#20 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I also see a "troll", but I too will defer to tecoyah. I think Ustwo's point about the distinctions is valid, but I also think there is a terribly thin line between the two types of extremists. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-03-2005, 12:07 PM	#22 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	There is certainly a disinction, but you've got to realize that this is how Christian leaders act when they are essentially in control of the most powerful country in the world. How would they act if that were no longer the case? It is a thin line and it's up to us moderates here in America to call them on their BS BEFORE that line is crossed.

09-03-2005, 12:23 PM	#23 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	What I found interesting in the article is the juxtaposition of two Christian leaders who quite clearly view God in fundamentally different ways. Kelley's faith is in a benevolent God and that it was God's mercy that lessened the impact of the hurricane. Shanks' faith rests in a wrathful God that produced the hurricane to punish the sinners. Both men see God's hand at work, but their belief in God's intent could not be more opposed. To echo Pan, "he who is without sin, can cast the first stone."

09-03-2005, 10:03 PM	#25 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	There's a reason the story of Sodom and Gommorah was included in the Bible; to use as justification for acts that someone may consider immoral. That guy probably believes he witnessed the same thing. Too bad he couldn't have been turned into a piller of salt. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

09-04-2005, 02:13 PM	#28 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Ustwo, if Muslim extreemists knew you, they might be afraid of you killing them. Of course this is about a few pastors who have opinions on the hurricane, not killing or being killed by muslim extreemists. The obvious hole in the argument of the pastors is that good Christians died along with those they stereotyped. Not only were the 'sodomites' washed away, some of their own parishners were lost, as well. Were they deserving of God's wrath as well? Or perhaps, they are not the voice of God. These people should be praying for those who have died and those who are in danger instead of trying to grab at thair 15 minutes of fame. Our church this morning observed 10 minutes of silent prayer and respect for those hurt by the hurricane.