Did FEMA Fail Us?
 

I am at a loss....and cannot understand how we could be so totally unprepared for what is happening in New Orleans. After seeing an interview with Ted Koppel and the head of FEMA....I was astounded by the lack of information this man seemed to have. He did not even know of the issues in the convention center....WTF?
While I do understand this is a MAJOR situation....I would have thought an agency designed to deal with this....would have been more organized , and effective. Five days into this....there is still no Operations Center....and the actual Military is not involved.

I would like to hear what others think of this, and if you think we dropped the ball.

Im glad you started this, cause I wanted to but Im so upset that it wouldnt have been coherent.

When I watched the head of FEMA last nite I just wanted to slap him....I knew about the covnetion center day before yesterday...how could he have NOT known? It was listed as an evacuation place.

I was telling Dave last nite...I remember Andrew, I remember Hugo (I was only one when Camille hit so I dont remember that one lol) I remember Ivan last year, and several others.....people were in those areas helping before the entire storm was even gone...its been 5 days and those people in NO STILL have no relief?

and this crap with no presence to deal with these assholes raping and pillaging pisses me off even more I heard someone say last nite "we arent arresting them because we have no place to put them" bull fucking shit its not like those punks need a hilton to be incarcerated in.

Im so upset by the lack of everything I dont really even know how to put it all into words

I'm going to repost this from another thread. Check out the opinion article Destroying FEMA, from the Washington Post:

It's a disgrace, IMO. So much for "homeland security". We already knew exactly what would happen years ago -- books and papers were written describing all the gory details, and they all happened exactly as predicted. Yet still we were taken by surprise. You can't really blame the average person; they're not disaster experts. But the responsible government agencies, at all levels, were fully aware of what was about to happen.

I saw that. Go Ted Koppel!! He tore this idiot a whole new asshole. I will say, however, that he did have one very valid point. It's the Federal government. They can't do anything until the State of Louisianna, asks for help. That said...why were there not squadrons of C-130's, filling flightlines in Arkansas, Texas, Oklahoma, and even Missouri, loaded with food and water, fueled and ready to go? Prepare for the worst, hope for the best?
In any event, another thing that I've noticed is too many suits up in Washington, talking about how long it will take, how difficult it will be, and the cost involved in rebuilding New Orleans. That's a topic best left for next week. Right NOW, there are people in dire need of the basic essentials to survive. Food. Water. Medicine. Get it there!!

I wrote this for anoter group, but it's just as valid here, so I'll post it again.

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I heard some FEMA spokesman interviewed on BBC radio today saying that the scale of the disaster means that they can't just rush into it, they have to carefully assess the situation before committing resources.

Bullshit.

Within 48 hours rescue teams were on the ground working IN ASIA after the Tsunami - having left from the UK on boxing day.

The US government displayed supreme arrogance.

The US Army engineering corps asked for $70million to keep the levees safe this year, and the federal government gave them $30mill - because The War Against Terror (or T.W.A.T. as it should be known) was using all the cash up.

In the Netherlands (another place below the sea level) they invested the equivalent of $20billion over the pat 50 years - their aim was to ensure that the area has no more than a 1 in 10,000 chance of being flooded by the sea once in every year.

The PLANNED defense level for N.O. was 1 in 200, and the government OF THE RICHEST COUNTRY ON EARTH failed to keep that going.

And now?

The cost will be about $20billion (they tell me on the BBC today) to repair N.O.

A US Army Engineer was saying it'll take them SIX MONTHS to pump the water back out.

SIX MONTHS!

It only took 2 days to get in.

Somehow I think the democrats will get in next time.

Bill - I listened to the Louisiana Governor on the BBC today saying that because Bush declared it a state of national emeergency BEFORE Katerina hit, there should have been aid loaded up and ready to fly as soon as the storm passed.

The State government apparently were shocked that the Federal govt had been so sluggish.

In response to this tidbit specifically, there are very, very few circumstances where active-duty soldiers can be used in an internal capacity like this. National Guard troops can be used for policing duties, as can (I think) Coast Guard units. However, they would be required to declare martial law before the "actual" military could assist.

While I suspect strongly that FEMA is lagging significantly, at this point I am inclined to place EVERY SINGLE bit of blame on that worthless sack of shit 'leading' the city of NO.

Ray Nagin has been completely worthless and unsuccessful in leading the city he was elected to serve. Now, and as is evidenced by the destruction wrought on his city, before this disaster, for which he and all of us KNEW the consequences. He has deteriorated into a self serving, career salvaging politician, unconcerned with his city, it's citizen's or the effects his failures have placed on the rest of the country, and solely interested in deflecting blame away from himself.

It's fun to blame someone, for sure, and part of the US psyche...but the federal government is not to 'blame....' yet!

Interesting, how the harder hit places like Miss and Ala, do not have similar grumblings.

/turns up his favorite 'hip' tune, and laments that looters weren't shot from the on-set.

-bear

I agree that it is obvious FEMA was not prepared to handle the residents of New Orleans after Katrina. But I also agree that you don't hear this out of the harder hit areas of mississippi. I've heard reports that folks in slidelle and Bay St. louis and pass christian haven't seen any FEMA, national guard troops, or red cross. But neighborhoods are looking out for eachother and working together.

Its a whole different situation in NO. The city is flooded, there are a lot more people there, most without the means to survive themselves. Its every-man for himself. The situation will probably worsen in the coming days as desparity increases and critical situations go beyond drastic. Many more people will die. Its awful. I really don't know what to think about it.

They said they were prepared to take 30,000 people in the superdome! The have half that there now. If they were preparred to take 30,000 folks, how long were they preparred to take them for? Just the night?

But the blame first goes to the mayor of NO and then the Gov of LA. When hurricanes are bearing down on florida, we don't see the federal government getting ready, we see local governemnts preparring and Jeb preparring/coordinating federal disaster relief. Apparantly the leaders in LA were not prepared to lead when this storm hit.

The federal government is acting now, and it takes time, at least a few days to get mobilized and involved. IF louisiana had come to the fed asking for help prior to the storm the govt would have been able to react faster. instead the fed sees how the state of LA couldn't handle the problem and is now stepping in and going to take over.

Its Louisiana's responsibility first and foremost.

It starts at the top. FEMA doesn't care because the Federal Government doesn't care because George W Bush doesn't care.

This is from the <a href="http://www.livejournal.com/community/ljdemocrats/">LiveJournal Democrats</a> community. It's now a few days old (it was written on Tuesday, three days ago).

ummm I hate to argue....but Bush did declare it before hand (or is this different? I cant tell because of the wording if state of emergency and federal disaster area mean the same thing....it looks like they both meant it would mean disaster relief would be sent right away)

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/....ap/index.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,167240,00.htm

Someone said it in another thread: institutional inertia.

You want blame? There's plenty to go around.

Blame -

-People who ignore storm warnings and "ride it out"
-People who build and rebuild and REBUILD in areas that are designed for a disaster.
-People who spend money on immediate needs instead of preventative measures

All these things are in HUMAN NATURE.

If I were dictator, I would first start moving people from areas that are prone to disaster, damn the bitching. That would include major, read RECURRING flood areas, and areas that can't handle RECURRING storms. It would also include areas that are in the path of, I don't know, MAJOR MUD/DEBRIS flows from volcanic eruptions. Then I would dictate that new refineries and power plants and distribution systems be built to spread them out across the country so that a disaster in one are doesn't cripple 30% of their (refining) capacity. Then I would dictate a major shift in our transportation policy away from highways and into rail systems, like we did for frickin' Europe. Next I would work on city sprawl and make it VERY attractive to work within walking/biking distance and expensive to do otherwise. I would also make major housing projects (read highrise the size of the sears tower) to make it affordable.

Yeah, there'll be a lot of changes when I'm in charge...

*ZZZZZZ*

Whazzat?? Did you say something? What were we talking about again?

When I first read this I thought; "You sanctimonious piece of shit."
Then, I got a cold chill, and thought: "My God...what if we are doing everything in our power to help?"

thats not answering my question though....the article ratbastid posted praised clinton for doing it the day before and said bush did nothing to get anything any place....both news reports I posted said he DID......and everything I've looked up on google says they basically did the same thing.....so I dont understand how people could say he DIDN'T get things in place......looks to me like FEMA is the one dragging their ass, not the pres

http://www.theunionleader.com/articl...?article=59834
Gov. Blanco had no plan, and is probably the most ill-prepared person to be leading a state in a time like this. Only after the level of despair was apparent did she order in Nat'l guard troops and a mandatory evacuation of the city. Where were these busses last week? It's not bush's responsibility to evacuate the people from NO, its the governor's. The federal government didn't leave the poorest of the poor in NO to rot. Their own governor and mayor did.

It is true there was an evacuation order before the hurricane struck, but that was givem by the mayor, not the governor. Had the mayor wanted to do more than just lip-service he would have acted with the state to ensure his citizens saftey. He did not.

There is plenty of blame to go around, lets just place it where it belongs.

add:
a quote from Blanco on the NO evacuation on the 28th of August, 2005:
Way to help the little man, Gov.

I guess what struck me about what I quoted was that the earlier citations, those presidents were in ACTION before the fact. Looks to me like Dub is doing a lot of talking--even now, five days later--and not much doing. Declaring the gulf coast a disaster area however far in advance it may be declared makes zero difference if it's not followed up by some actual EFFORT, you know? I know those articles you quoted talk about federal support being available, but... where IS it then?

Like, okay, he flew Air Force 1 over NOLA and said, "Golly. It's bad. Hey, Karl, look! I think I can see my approval ratings down there!" That's just not enough.

I grant that this is devastation on a scale we haven't seen since Galveston, but there's just a whole lot of hot air and vacation happening, and not bloody much actually being DONE.

ok....so basically what you posted is BS....cause he DID do the same things(and actually 2 days beforehand not one like clinton :lol: )....FEMA IS the ones dragging their ass. (and maybe the LA Gov didnt do things in a timely manner anyway...from what I read its her responsibility to ask for the aid) What more is the pres supposed to do when he told them to prepare, FEMA did, supposedly...but then dragged their feet moving in?

she may have asked for it, but what about saving her citizens? What about plans for after the hurricane? I'm not blaming everything on her, but to say the cluster-fuck-that-is-New-Orleans is bush's fault is rediculous.

Even if you want to get into the funds that were cut and diverted away from FEMA and into fighting terrorism, that is the Dept. of homeland security's decision, where FEMA currently resides.

well stevo, I agree....thats why Im trying to understand why the non-bush liking people are bashing him for this. Im really trying to get a handle on what else he could have done...oh hell..what am I saying....non bush likers are gonna blame him if the fall leaves arent a brilliant showcase of colors this year.

See my posted article up at Post 3: Bush crippled FEMA. So, who's supposed to help?

It still looks to me like for some reason FEMA delayed help, this article notes 100% funding for 72 hours...when was that 72 hours supposed to start?

http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18478

Right. The DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY controlls these funds. Not bush. The DHS is a cabinet-level office. This office took funds from FEMA, not bush.

FEMA still gets plenty of money. They are spending money year-round on hurricane-preparedness research. (I do some of that data collection). It hasn't been totally dried up.

This year's budget provides $3.6 billion more than in 2004 for DHS programs—a doubling of funding since 2001

2005 Discretionary Budget Authority:
$33.8 billion

What DHS does with it is up to them - not bush

And so....we go full circle. My question has nothing to do with Bush.....he did his job as he should have and made the funds available.....so where the hell is FEMA?

I'm not sure if FEMA failed or not.

I am sure that the government of LA grossly failed. EVERYONE knew of the possibility, and if I recall it came very close to happening last year. They were totally unprepared and are now looking to blame anyone but themselves.

It doesn't take great planning to figure out the equation of 'Urban Center + Below Sea Level + Coastal + Hurricane = BAD'.

of course it didnt have anything to do with bush....that doesnt meant somebody isnt gonna try to sneak a bash in!!!

(somebody needs to spank ratbastid :lol: )

afraid of getting shot and killed in new orleans. They can't get in there because the governor fucked up. Helecopters can't land. Trucks can't get in. If fema were to get a truck in there it would, without a doubt, be like somalia. The armed gangs would hijack it. FEMA wasn't created to clean up a state's mess, they were created for disaster relief. The would have been able to help right away if the gov had a plan and there weren't tens of thousands of desperate people starving, dying, trapped in New Orleans.

FEMA will get in there when enough troops are there to provide security. The troops are going at the behest of the gov (a little late) and one of their US Senators (Thats not even his job!). The federal govt is picking up the slack and it takes time. precious time desperate people don't have.

Everyone fucked up, folks.

The richest country on earth, and the poorest people in it got screwed.

viva capitalism. :D

Care to explain how this would have been better under a non-capitalist system?

They have killed 110 million of their own citizens, so tred carefully before you answer.

Of course the main reason that the National Guard has been slow in its response is that many of the local regiments are off fighting in Iraq. Such are the consequences of using a force intended for domestic protection to invade a foreign land.

We do have a clear lack of leadership as well that goes straight to the top. It's sad that our president is such a petulant toadie that he needs to appear with his dad and Clinton to remind people what it was like to have a leader that commanded a modicum of respect.

yep. thats right. I forgot. its all his fault. damn. If only we didn't get attacked on 9/11 those people in New Orleans would have been able to evacuate. Bush sure did screw them over. He should have had C-130's in there last saturday evacuating the poor. but alas, they were used up in Iraq, and the poor people of new orleans had to rely on their super competant governor who had a wonderful plan for them all to be safe. I just can't remember what it was.

/sarcasm

What are you trying to say? I'm completely flummoxed by this response. Do you deny that many of the National Guard units which would have been available for aid are actually off fighting in a foreign country, as has been widely reported? I'm confused, please clarify.

They shouldn't have been needed in such large numbers if the governor didn't leave tens of thousands of people stranded in the city. The governor knows how many troops there are in the LA National Guard. and she should have planned accordingly.
There are plenty of troops. They will get there. NO just needs more than they should have.

according to the research I did 78,000 of the 440,000 National Gaurd troops are overseas, that leaves 362,000 here. That means that we are only short a little over 17% of the national guard force. Is somebody going to tell me thats not enough?

I totally agree, if he had wanted to take care of the leaves he could have lobbied congress for money instead of dumping money into the pockets of the hornets. I have a few friends who have relative from NO and they say the city (except for the french quarter) is a crime ridden shit hole.

I blame local government, if they had force evac. like they were told to it wouldn't have been an issue. If they had improved leavies from the 1920 it wouldn't have been a problem.

I bet the media will make him out to be a hero

What reports?

Exactly how many members of the Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama National Guards are over in Iraq right now? And what percentage of the whole of those three are they?

And also explain how it would matter if the troops going in now can't get in?

So did FEMA fail us?

-not exactly

They can't do their job because the leaders of NO and LA failed. period.

while I know I didnt answer this exactly in my previous post....a little of 17% of the total troops are overseas....

from what I could find 40% of MS's are in iraq and 35% of Lousiana's totally about 6000 troops

Thanks, I didn't see any of that before. So, approximately 60-65% of the NG is "available" for service in those states?

Bring it on, baby!! ;)

Look, here's the bottom line, for me: When I am the boss, if something goes wrong on my watch, it goes wrong on my watch and that's the end of the story. Doesn't really matter if I knew it was going wrong, or if I personally had anything to do with it. I'm the boss. It went wrong on my watch. That makes me responsible. It's a question of integrity and accountability. With (some, not all) past POTUSes, that was the way it was too. It's just clearly not the case with this administration.

I have more to say about this, but as tecoyah points out, it's off topic.

Yes, FEMA has failed us, but it's not just FEMA.

Who is the boss of New Orleans?

Here's a great article from Slate.com

Here is my favorite except:

As I posted earlier, FEMA and the rest of the Federal Government are lagging, but to take it a step further, with this, as WITH EVERY SINGLE FUCKING PROGRAM the feds take up, it is a complete disaster.

\queues up the end of Braveheart...mounts high horse.

I still want to hang the mayor of New Orleans by his testicles then watch his constituents eviserate then draw and quarter his worthless ass...and have the Governor of LA's ovaries removed without anethesia so she can no longer pollute our species with her genes, but I also want to give credit where credit is due. While 90% of this aftermath debacle is of local making, it was...hell still is...not beyond resolution if the DHS would get it's collective head out of its ass and get things under control.

\turns off 'Braveheart' and steps off of high horse

The biggest problem was the lack of desire to deal with the lawlessness and looting. It snowballed and the 'lord of the flies' mentality that exists now is a direct result of this inaction.

Thank you moral relativism, political correctness, and the compassion and understanding industries.

Why do people think that human nature can be altered or even tamed?

-bear

If the head of FEMA appeared clueless, this might explain it:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/090205Z.shtml

Excerpt:

Unfortunately it doesn't explain it. The reason the head of FEMA "appears" clueless is because that's how governments spins things...favorably towards themselves. Spin in that sentence=lie.

Presidents apponting croonies is how it's always worked. I take exception to it, but I'm unsure how it's relevant, or particularly shocking in this or any instance.

The only thing I found interesting in that snip, Elpheba, is this:

"...an oversized entitlement program..."

And agree 100% with that assesment of FEMA.

-bear

PS. I'm not even going to 'touch' that source, btw...

Are people really surprised at this?

Our country is horrible at handling disasters mainly because those who SHOULD be prepared are too arrogant in thinking it will never happen, or the methods they have in place are sufficient enough.

9/11 proved otherwise.

You'd figure after that, our country would have a better grip on how to handle disaster areas - we don't. Why? Nothing is different. Because all this time you've been thinking you're much safer when in reality it's just not true.

At least 9/11 was a unique case in that they didn't know how to handle buildings collapsing in the midst of a populated city like NYC - so not being ready is understandable (to a point).

In a situation like this... there's no excuse. It's no surprise that area of the country gets slammed each year by hurricanes. You would think those in charge would have a plan to prepare for the worst - assume each hurricane is a class 5.

Shit, I know if I was living in or in charge of a city BELOW SEA LEVEL, I'd wanna make sure the man-made structures in place can withstand the highest natural disaster - that didn't happen. Bad move and ignorance on their part.

As for the fed govt taking their sweet ass time gettin there... again, no surprise. They should've been ready for the worst when the hurricane was first announced. ALWAYS have troops and supplies ready to go because you don't know what's gonna happen - they failed in that aspect.

We simply don't know how to handle crisis situations and live under the illusion that when something bad happens, the govt will wave a magic wand and fix it all. They're just as clueless as we are.

George W. Bush is, once he declares a federal disaster area.

Granted, there are local bosses who are being equally slimy, and people in the chain of command all the way up who are dropping balls. But at the end of the day, who's the top dog of the pile of FEMA and their operations in New Orleans? FEMA being under the authority of the Department for Homeland Security, a cabinet-level department? Whooooose cabinet? ;)

The buck absolutely without a doubt does NOT Stop Here with this president. That's why it doesn't stop with anyone else all the way down--there's nobody at the top holding the line. It's all politics.

A fish rots from the head down. NOLA smells a lot like rotten fish these days.

This is hilarious. Mother nature decided to royally fuck shit up, and everyone here seems to want to turn it into a political argument. I don't care if you have a million people helping out in New Orleans and the surrounding areas, there is no way to prepare for shit like this in a satisfactory manner. It is going to be chaos, regardless of where the president is or who the president is or how many precautions a governor made beforehand. It is going to take some time to figure out what in the hell people are supposed to do and figure out how in the hell they are supposed to do it. You can't just throw money at this disaster and expect it to get fixed. You also cant just throw people at it and expect it to get fixed.

No matter how much you think you can control these types of situations, you just cant.

Like the mayor of N.O., and the Governor of LA?

Nagin is no Guliani, and that's where most of the problem stems from.

Why didn't Bush send in the National Guard? It could be because the National Guard is commanded by the State Governors, unless they are called into Federal service. Had Bush stripped the State Governors of their most potent asset, what do you think the response would have been?

Heh. I thought about the source and quoted the factual statements only and left out the liberal "outrage." :)

I don't agree with you that FEMA was an entitlement program. The agency had rightfully gained some respect for it's multi-state responses to natural disasters. I have no argument with the decision to move FEMA under the Homeland Security banner, but a Federal first response team for either natural or unnatural disasters seems to have withered away. The Federal government responding to any kind of multi-state catastrophe is not an entitlement, but a duty.

once again we have someone linking 9/11 to the war on iraq. were the two related?

To a point... you can't control them, no, but you can definitely prepare for the worst.

You live in hurricane alley, you have a city BELOW sea level, and the only thing you have to protect you from flooding is badly outdated man-made barriers.

None of this, prior to the hurriane, was news or a surprise to anyone.

That's just disaster waiting to happen - and as we can see, that's exactly what happened. Nature is bad and uncontrollable, BUT they could've definitely done something about this particular situation ahead of time.

They didn't and now they're payin the price.

i'm startled at how many people seem think it's the federal government's role to protect us from natural phenomena.

If by natural phenomena you mean a disaster effecting multiple states with immediate repercussions for the entire nation then yes, the national government does have resposibilities.

yes, that's exactly what i mean.

i'm not absolving the federal government from all involvement, but the whining and complaining about the level of federal support is making me nauseous.

You caught us, this was a Republican hurricane that has been secretly brewing on GWB's ranch in Texas. I think it even voted for GWB in the last election.

So when the richest nation in the world experiences one of its worst natural disasters ever we should expect the response from the government to be shitty and half-assed? I don't understand.

I'm not saying that the government response has been terrible given the magnitude of what's happened, but for the head of FEMA to be less informed than the average journalist several days later, that's reprehensible.

and
I couldn't agree more.

That is painfully obvious.

It is fascinating to me, how the education in this country produces citizens who have zero understanding of what the actual role of their government is.

"Oh please all mighty government..save me from myself!"

-bear

What kind of anarchist are you anyway? A big government anarchist? :rolleyes:

-bear

well....obviously this thread has gone beyond the point of useful information. I seriously wanted to get a feel for whether or not people felt FEMA did its job....and appreciate the replys.

Re-opened at member request

Today Salon magazine came out with an article on this thread topic, "Why FEMA failed". It's an interesting article, posted in full below for linkaphobic folks.

This article summarizes many of the points already made in this thread, but backs them up with some interesting attributions. Basically it's saying what is becoming increasingly obvious: FEMA failed for conservative ideological reasons, namely that the current administration has taken the line that the federal government should have a much lower profile in local disasters than in the past, and the local governments should take on much greater responsibility and cost than in the past.

The problem with this position, in my view, is that disasters of this magnitude completely, utterly overwhelm the local resources, and without federal assistance, people will die, possibly in great numbers. In fact that seems to be precisely what happened in the case of Katrina.


BTW, this is just one of many news analyses out today that looks critically at the detailed behavior of FEMA in the days after Katrina, all coming to pretty much the same conclusion.

From 1991 to 2001, Michael Brown was the Commissioner of the International Arabian Horse Association. A position from which he was forced to resign in the face of mounting litigation and financial disarray.
Unconfirmed reports also indicate that he was fired (forced out?) for incompetence while working for an Oklahoma law firm, as well.

THIS is the man that the President of the United States saw fit to bestow as the head of the Federal Emergency Management Administration. Based on what, exactly? His experience in mismanagement, or his experience in writing large checks?

There will come a time of reckoning. And I predict that Michael Brown, rather that be fired for gross incompetence, will instead be awarded the Medal of Freedom.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...s/16bc5ac9.gif

As much as I have wanted to post that^^^^^^I didnt.

Thanx Bill.

Declaring a emergency and mobilizing resources are two VERY different things.

I think there is plenty of blame to go around from the top (Bush) on down to FEMA, to the Govenor, the Mayor and many individuals on the ground.

Regardless of what Bush was supposed to do he failed with regards to the PR on this. He should have dropped everything and rushed back to DC to "coordinate" efforts. This was a national disaster and he should have at least appeared to be on the ball. His handlers failed him and for a leader who has shown an uncanny ability to control his image in the media, this is BIG.

FEMA appeared to operate like a chicken with its head cut off. Despite declarations of Distaster Areas from both Federal and State levels the help didn't seem to flow fast enough. It seems it was tied up in paperwork and mismanagement. Seems to me that if you are going to have an agency of this nature it should be able to get shit done when it matters most. It did work in the past so I can only assume (at this point) that when something works you shouldn't fix it... Homeland Security has some 'splaining to do. As does Bush for appointing the yahoo in charge of FEMA, this seems like one postion that should have an expert rather than a crony or someone who gives good campaign finance.

The Govenor and the Mayor... they both seem to be trying hard but it just isn't enough. I get the feeling that they are a lot like the people on the ground who just never thought it could get this bad. In the end... they really should have been more prepared and made more effort on getting people out of harms way. Martial Law should have been declared immediately after the storm had passed and National Guards should have been preped and on standby days BEFORE the storm. You can always send them home if they aren't needed.

The people who stayed behind. I don't blame them, like some do for staying. I do blame those who would loot and shoot at rescue efforts. Unlike other areas, where communities banded together, certain elements of New Orleans behaved like they were in a Living Dead film.


I am glad to hear that Bush has called for an inquest into what happened. At least he seems to be back on track -- looking like he's doing something.



In the end, regardless of who is to blame the storm was a disaster, the organization of the rescue and post-storm support was a tragedy.

I think the other shoe has to drop. FEMA failed, but so did local government. The mayor and governor clearly weren't communicating well or coordinating services, and neither of them actually requested help from FEMA in anticipation of being overwhelmed, as they are required to do -- FEMA doesn't mobilize until they are asked to by local governments.

I haven't seen any evidence that New Orleans has/had a plan to evacuate the poor and the elderly, both of which are chronic concerns of the city. In the end, I think there will be a new definition of "mandatory evacuation" in the face of a natural disaster, and who is responsible for the cost of such a big undertaking.

I've been waiting out this topic a bit, but I have to say that I do think that ultimately we are seeing a systemic failure on a national level. I think the response of FEMA has inadequate, and from I can see its potentially symptomatic of the national agencies expecting / trying to transition to a more local-oriented response, and the local levels expecting more federal involvement. End result : no one takes responsibility. In a state of transition, no one knew where the responsibility lay, everyone thought it was someone else's job, and no one ponied up and took responsibility.

That's what I find so appalling. I personally don't hold the mayor as accountable as it seems some do (he seems to have been fairly vocal in expressing the needs of his city) - but I would be curious to know how much previous mayors and governors in disaster areas have had to personally head up evacuations? In previous situations, before the re-alignment of FEMA in the DHS, was their role mostly to make calls to the Feds and then following orders that the Feds passed down?

I'll admit I'm not a fan of the current administration. Regardless of my feelings on other political topics, I don't feel this is political. I am appalled by the lack of leadership that has been displayed on the national level. I would think that after the federal and state levels of emergency were declared, that if I were the head of FEMA and I saw practically nothing being done to get the relief in, I would calling everyone I could think of to get the ball rolling. And if I were the President, or the head of Homeland Security, and the guy underneath me wasn't making the calls - I would call his ass, and I would make the appropriate calls to get the process started. Even if the state and city totalled fucked up, if I had the authority to take over (which they did after the States of Emergency were issued) I'd like to think I'd do what was necessary to get the relief in.

It may not be part of Bush's resume. It may not be part of Chertoff's resume. In my opinion, a part of leadership is going above and beyond in critical times to make sure that the appropriate actions are taken, even if it's not your job.

I'm sympathetic to much of what you say, but I think it's always the primary responsibility of local government to assume the responsibility for planning and readiness, a test that New Orleans failed, as well as FEMA.

I'm no friend of the Bush administration, either. But a city that's below sea level should have comprehensive plans for evacuation, which FEMA could assist if necessary. I think all the relevant governments were not prepared, and therefore FEMA ought not to bear the brunt of the criticism.

FEMA also should not be subsumed by another government agency. It ought to be accountable only to the President.

Hmmm...I basically agree and disagree with what you're saying. I agree with everything but the bolded part. I think that if your agency exists, purportedly (at least in the eyes of the local governments, in light of historical performance if nothing else) to deal with disaster and national emergency...and the locals drop the ball, you should be ready to jump in a knock the shit out. Expect the local government to be competent, but be prepared for them not to be. You can bitch them out later. But in the time of crisis, I just wish someone with enough authority to make a difference had done so...before 4 or 5 days went by. It's not like the hurricane happened in a vacuum...I can sit and watch this shit go down on TV, radio, the internet. How could authority figures not know it was seriously fucked up, and where is someone with the fortitude to get people moving. I just think it's a disgrace. I personally believe that with more power comes more responsibility...when your subordinates don't perform, reprimand and/or leapfrog. But get the job done.

edit : My html tags aren't working, and I don't have time to troubleshoot. The bolded part was about FEMA not bearing the brunt of the criticism. I think that National levels ultimately get hit for not taking responsibility after local efforts failed or were never in place to start with.

I am compelled to share some articles that I read today. The first one describes the number of ways that FEMA failed in it's response to Katrina, and the reasons behind that failure. There is some repetition here from previous posts, but the article pulls it all together, historically. As I have stated elsewhere, I am not in disagreement with folding FEMA into HS. I'm also a fiscal conservative and approve a small federal government with emphasis on state's rights and responsibilities. But what has resulted is not the once reputable FEMA.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20.../index_np.html

FEMA was able to respond to Pat Robertson with great spead, however. In another topic, Robertson's influence within the Republican party has been discussed at length.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/sto...p-293471c.html


Let's do a Robertson accounting, shall we. Diamonds in Zaire, gold in Liberia, and dollars to donuts Robertson had an interest in Venezuela oil before Chavez nationalized it. His continued influence in Republican political circles should be investigated, IMO.

I had already read an AP article in this morning's paper that "Brownie" requested 1,000 Homeland Security employees to be dispatched into the stricken region to "convey a positive image of disaster operations to government officials, community organizations and the general public."

I really wasn't ready for this additional PR move, however.

Now wait one friggin' minute. Don't we have Brownie's 1,000 PR folks already there? This is the most egregious use of highly trained rescue personnel that I have ever seen or heard of. Has FEMA become nothing more than a political PR department of the administration that can command the best of our country to do it's bidding?

Apparently the LA state govt. deserves some more blame.

According to this article, LA (through the Army Corp. of engineers) has actually had more flood abatement funding under Bush than Clinton, but the legistlators have been funneling the money into porkbarrel projects...including funds meant for a project at the spot the levy broke.


http://www.startribune.com/stories/125/5602732.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Army's engineers spent millions on Louisiana projects labeled as pork
Michael Grunwald, Washington Post
September 8, 2005 CORPS0908



WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Before Hurricane Katrina breached a levee on the New Orleans Industrial Canal, the Army Corps of Engineers had launched a $748 million construction project at that very location. But the project had nothing to do with flood control. The Corps was building a massive new lock for the canal, an effort to accommodate steadily increasing barge traffic.

Except barge traffic on the canal has been steadily decreasing.

In Katrina's wake, Louisiana politicians and other critics have complained about paltry funding for the Army Corps in general and Louisiana projects in particular. But over the five years of President Bush's administration, Louisiana has received far more money for Corps civil works projects than any other state, about $1.9 billion; California was a distant second with less than $1.4 billion, even though its population is more than seven times larger.

Much of that Louisiana money was spent to try to keep low-lying New Orleans dry. But hundreds of millions of dollars have gone to unrelated water projects demanded by the state's congressional delegation and approved by the Corps, often after economic analyses that turned out to be inaccurate. Despite a series of independent investigations criticizing Army Corps construction projects as wasteful pork-barrel spending, Louisiana's representatives have kept bringing home the bacon.

For example, after a $194 million deepening project for the Port of Iberia flunked a Corps cost-benefit analysis, Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-La., tucked language into an emergency Iraq spending bill ordering the agency to redo its calculations. The Corps also spends tens of millions of dollars a year dredging little-used waterways like the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet, the Atchafalaya River and the Red River -- now known as the J. Bennett Johnston Waterway, in honor of the project's congressional godfather -- for barge traffic that turns out to be less than forecast.

Most controversial

The Industrial Canal lock is one of the agency's most controversial projects, sued by residents of a New Orleans low-income black neighborhood and cited by an alliance of environmentalists and taxpayer advocates as the fifth-worst current Corps boondoggle. In 1998, the Corps justified its plan to build a new lock -- rather than fix the old lock for a tiny fraction of the cost -- by predicting huge increases in barge traffic.

In fact, barge traffic on the canal had been plummeting since 1994, but the Corps left that data out of its study. And barges have continued to avoid the canal since the study was finished, even though they are visiting the port in increased numbers.

Pam Dashiell, president of the Holy Cross Neighborhood Association, remembers holding a protest against the lock four years ago -- right where the levee broke last week. Now she's holed up with her family in a St. Louis hotel, and her neighborhood is underwater. "Our politicians never cared half as much about protecting us as they cared about pork," she said.

Wednesday, congressional defenders of the Corps said they hoped the fallout from Hurricane Katrina would pave the way for billions of dollars of additional spending on water projects. Steve Ellis, a Corps critic with Taxpayers for Common Sense, called their push "the legislative equivalent of looting."

Louisiana's politicians have requested much more money for New Orleans hurricane protection than the Bush administration has proposed or Congress has provided. In the last budget bill, Louisiana's delegation requested $27.1 million for shoring up levees around Lake Pontchartrain, the full amount the Corps had declared as its "project capability." Bush suggested $3.9 million, and Congress agreed to spend $5.7 million.

Administration officials also scaled back a long-term project to restore Louisiana's disappearing coastal marshes, which once provided a measure of natural hurricane protection for New Orleans. They ordered the Corps to stop work on a $14 billion plan and devise a $2 billion plan instead.

Levees only so strong

But overall, the Bush administration's funding requests for the key New Orleans flood-control projects for the past five years were slightly higher than the Clinton administration's for its past five years. Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, the chief of the Corps, has said that in any event, more money would not have prevented the drowning of the city, since its levees were only designed to protect against a Category 3 storm. Strock also has said the marsh restoration project would not have done much to diminish Katrina's storm surge, which passed east of the coastal wetlands.

"The project manager for the Great Pyramids probably put in a request for 100 million shekels and only got 50 million," said John Paul Woodley Jr., the Bush administration official overseeing the Corps. "Flood protection is always a work in progress; on any given day, if you ask whether any community has all the protection it needs, the answer is almost always: Maybe, but maybe not."

The Corps had been studying the possibility of upgrading the New Orleans levees for a higher level of protection before Katrina hit, but Woodley said that study would not have been finished for years. Still, liberal bloggers, Democratic politicians and some Republican defenders of the Corps have linked the catastrophe to the underfunding of the agency.

"We've been hollering about funding for years, but everyone would say: There goes Louisiana again, asking for more money," said former Democratic senator John Breaux. "We've had some powerful people in powerful places, but we never got what we needed."

Looks like Louisiana failed FEMA.

The article is about misappropriation of army corps of engineer funding. It does nothing to let FEMA off the hook, it still responded way too groggily.

There you have the typical Democratic twisting of facts. Yes, I made up the following numbers to illustrate the spin:

"We got $5 million from Clinton. We asked for $10 million from Bush. Bush only gave us $5.5 million. BUSH CUT OUR FUNDS!!!"

(Not to pick on just your post...... but it was easiest and shortest to quote)

Who the F cares?????

What we have here are 1000's dead and dying and fucking fingers being pointed.

Yes, FEMA fucked up..... yes, Bush fucked up and yes, the governor fucked up....

NOW IS THAT GOING TO SAVE ANYONE????????

FUCK NO!!!!!!!!!

Get FEMA off their ass and allow the luxury liners, the water, the diesel fuel, the first responders from other states to come in. Let the Cuban Doctors in, let the other countries help us..... Hey Zeus Freckling Crisp, they are doing so to show caring and support....... that's far more than the victims got from OUR GODDAMNED IDIOT POLITICIANS AND THE FUCKING TALKING HEADS WHO KEEP POINTING FINGERS AND DOING SHIT.........

Stop pointing those GODDAMNED fingers and fucking do something, Hey Zeus Freckling Crisp, are we so divided in this country that we're willing to let 1000's upon 1000's die just so a mother fucking political party can take advantage of the tragedy?????

WTF????? Last time I checked, the people dying were PEOPLE not political philosophies, not some fucking religious martyrs,...... FUCKING PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND I..... DESERVING TO HAVE OUR COUNTRY'S GOVERNMENT AND THEIR STATE'S WORKING TOGETHER AND FUCKING HELPING THEM......

Not have everyone point fingers and blame the other side...... WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED TO SOMEONE BEING BETTER AND JUST TAKING THE HIGH ROAD AND LETTING THE OTHER SIDE EITHER KEEP WALLOWING OR FOLLOW??????????

I am sickened by this and by the holier than thou attitudes from some people on here, the media and real life, who believe they can point fingers and show that their political party was right......

FUCK THAT...... 1000'S ARE DEAD

You want to be right?????

Tell the 1000's upon 1000's that lost everything, and the people that died your side was fucking right and that you were to busy playing politics to FUCKING HELP THEM!!!!!!!!!!

You want to be "the one who cared the most", yet pointed fingers and did shit (BOTH parties are guilty).

I am very ashamed and disappointed to be an American today......

While I believe (and always have said) that all levels of government are at fault here, the fact is that the problems within New Orleans are specific to New Orleans. The faults of New Orleans are pretty likely going to be irrelevant to the next hurricane or terrorist attack, which could occur anywhere. However the faults of FEMA and the current administration will be anything but irrelevant to the next disaster or terrorist attack. They will rather be center stage again.

So if you want to think in terms of risk: failure to quickly correct the faults of FEMA carries much greater immediate risk to American citizens than failure to quickly correct the faults of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans, which is likely not to experience another Katrina for 300 years.

My feeling is that if we are truly concerned about improving our current emergency preparedness in order to save American lives, we need to focus most or our attention on the federal government.

I agree completely that FEMA needs to be reconstituted into the agency it once was. Given that the hurricane season isn't over yet, the dangers to the gulf coast states need to remain upper most in current disaster planning. My question is whether we have any central coordinating agency to deal with the next hurricane *this* year.

If they're poor blacks, yup.

They're not people, they're BLACK people. A key difference.

This is the BS I'm talking about (btw you are saying there are absolutely no whites there?????). THEY ARE FUCKING PEOPLE......

Black, white, purple, blue, red, yellow, polka dot..... who the fuck cares??????? 1000's are dead and dying, wading in raw sewage trying to just live and THIS is all you can say?????????

If it were you and you lost everything you owned, had to tread water for 5 days and watched people fucking die before your eyes......... don't you think you deserve some fucking help from our Goddamned government and not fingers being pointed at your race? And so what if they are the ones pointing it out..... I don't give a flying fuck, they need fucking help. THEY ARE PEOPLE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD THEY DESERVE AND NEED OUR HELP AND WE'RE GOING TO SIT AND ARGUE OVER PARTY AND RACE???????

The fucking racism (both sides) on this board and in this country is fucking pathetic. I thought we were getting past all this.

From what you posted, all I have left to say is I pray you never have to go through what those PEOPLE had to and shall have to.

I think you misunderstood me (as I expected). I was merely trying to say that because the view of NO was mainly of black victims, America in general was more likely to not respond with maximum effort. They are also more likely to dehumanize the victims, and put issues above lives. I wasn't speaking so much from personal perspective as from the perspective of Americans in general.

I think the short answer to your question unfortunately is "no", which is more than a little unsettling given that we're currently sitting on the peak of the season, which is going to last another couple months. We could very easily have 2-3 more major hurricanes in the U.S. before winter.

So even if those aren't your views, you would rather post that garbage than try to find a way to help and get over it?

You'd rather point fingers, keep hate alive and say "I wasn't speaking so much from personal perspective as from the perspective of Americans in general." than to look for true answers and just let go of it.

That's a great example of what I'm talking about.... it's always... "the other person thinks....." or "the other person says....." instead of saying we need to get past this shit, and work on helping these people first, making sure they have food water and shelter...... then deal with the other issues and clean our act up.

It's like when I listened to Springer this AM on my way home from work and he played some of Limbaugh, where Limbaugh had a caller saying (and I paraphrase) "These people hit the jackpot, we're giving those blacks and poor people designer clothes and money so they can trade it all in for crack?" and Limbaugh not only agreed but added more to it by saying "this will really make your day, we're even giving them credit cards." (Red Cross cards so that they can buy food and find shelter when they get relocated..... but I guess Limbaugh and his audience are right they'll all buy crack with it.)

Yeah, these poor people flipping lose EVERYTHING wade for days in raw sewage and filth, starve, watch people die in front of their eyes, will have mental scars we can never even imagine.... and we have people calling in on the radio AND radio hosts (most of whom claim to be "Christian" propegating and continuing to push and preach hatred towards victims of the USA's worst natural disaster in whoi knows how long, these self righteous ignorant talk show hosts and their audiences want to begrudge these poor people food, clothing and safety...... from their nice warm homes, as they wear dry clothes and know when and where their next meal is coming from???????

FUCKING GET OVER IT AND DO SOMETHING, DONATE WHATEVER YOU CAN AFFORD, EVEN IF IT'S ONLY BLOOD OR PRAYERS..... AND BE THANKFUL YOU ARE ALIVE AND DIDN'T GO THROUGH IT.... DON'T BEGRUDGE THESE PEOPLE ANYTHING..... ASK YOURSELF WHAT WOULD CHRIST DO????? WHAT WOULD YOUR GOD THINK OF THE HATRED AND PETTINESS YOU DISPLAY?

CNN is breaking with the story that "FEMA director Michael Brown (is) being sent back to Washington; Homeland Security Director Chertoff to announce new leader for on-the-ground Katrina relief efforts, senior administration official tells CNN."

There isn't a link yet for this on CNN.

Why? He did such a good job; Katrina didn't kill a single Arabian horse after all.
;)

Well, its the natural outcome of his disassembling strategery. It's a good move, given the track record...there's nothing that can be done to undo this tragedy, but at least it seems that the leviathon is finally moving.

Now hold on. I actually heard that segment on Rush's show wednesday, I happened to be in my car at the time (usually I'm working). I heard the lady call in. Rush did NOT agree with her. He told her she was wrong and that these people didn't hit the jackpot. When she said they'll trade clothes for crack he asked her why she was so angry.

You really don't know what you are talking about here and are straight up lying. I'm working on finding a transcript from that segment and when I do I'll post it up here so everyone can see how you are lying.

---
ok found it

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/dai...ain.guest.html

Now that lady cynthia that called in, she's a disgrace, she doesn't speak for me, rush, or any other conservative. But after you read this transcrip tell me again that rush agreed that these people hit the jackpot and can't wait to buy crack with it.

You wear your partisanship on your sleeve, pan. Whether you want to admit it or not. and your spreading of misinformation and lies doesn't help your credibility one bit.

I am not lying, I said I heard it on Springer and paraphrased..... which is the Left's version of Limbaugh and if you find the transcript and show his response was different and altered by Springer.... then I will appologize for jumping to conclusions.... but knowing Limbaugh and how he blamed the London bombings THE DAY of the bombings on the left I was not surprised.

So maybe Springer is the liar? Don't listen to springer he'll rot your brain with his lies.

Two flavors...MSNBC link... and story from CNN

Having read your transcript, I will admit again..... I heard my version on Springer having taken a vow never to listen to Limbaugh again after the British bombings.

It does appear from the transcript Rush tried to handle it well and didn't agree.

He did have to jab the Dems.... I guess that is why he makes his huge money though..... just as Springer makes his jabbing the GOP.

Both sides are wrong and I have been saying that. I have never said I was non-partisan, in fact I have always admitted to being Left, but I am willing to listen to the right and will agree and work with them when needed..... this is a time when partisanship needs to be thrown out and we need to work together.

What we have seen from our showings of a show on each side is that the talking heads are spewing hatred, taking jabs and using this tragedy to further their side.

It's wrong. And I admit I was wrong for believing what I heard on Springer before checking it out.

sorry for calling you a liar, then. :icare:

Lol.... now I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. No reason to be sorry, I was called out and rightfully so. I'm man enough to admit I was wrong and that I should have checked the facts, and not just 1 side.

And I have admitted in other threads, I am as big of a hypocrit as anyone else... I can be very partisan as I shout the partisanship needs to end.... I think I'm in the majority there though.... where ya know the partisanship is wrong but then you see something you totally disagree with or "a shot fired" and the passion bubbles over before the mind can process and be rational.

I love happy endings. Dabs eyes and sniffles

:)

I still don't think you're understanding me. I was trying to point out the inherent racism in the reaction of the country. Unless you expect me to just look past racism, which I really don't see being of any help. One thing I will not stick my head in the sand over is racism.

Nor should you..... but there were better ways to say what you said. And yes, unfortunately there is inherent racism from ALL races..... but we shouldn't be using that as an excuse or as a way to force more guilt across the US......

People are people and noone deserves what these people have gone through the past 2 weeks.

I'm not forcing guilt on anyone. Honestly, I can see much justification for racism. It is other people who chose to attach negative connotation to what I said. And I don't see any better way to get my point across. I think maybe I could've trimmed 3 words from my initial comments, but that wouldn't have had the same emphasis IMO. I think I was extremely succinct and to the point.

Are y'all arguing about something, because honestly, I can't tell :) I wasn't under the impression that anyone was saying that the residents of New Orleans deserved what they got, only that alan was saying he believed that inherent racism affected the nature of the response. Am I missing something?

Couldn't agree more, pigglet! I hear alan's argument, and I feel pan's anger. I agree with both.

meembo

word. my perception was that they were sort of flip sides of the same coin, or bastard cousins or something. all of a sudden there's this contention, and i'm not seeing the point of departure. i think we should all be a little pissed right now (i'm a little scared. southern state, hurricane = happen), and the extent to which poverty and race are intertwined, or whether any inherent associated apathy is involved in the sluggish response, I think, are very real and important questions. I have to say, it's hard for me to imagine that if the Hamptons or Manhatten was in this kind of shit, that they'd be letting those people chill out for a week or so before they got aid to them. I realize it's not that simple, but I think it might be a real factor.