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Here's a great article from Slate.com
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\queues up the end of Braveheart...mounts high horse. I still want to hang the mayor of New Orleans by his testicles then watch his constituents eviserate then draw and quarter his worthless ass...and have the Governor of LA's ovaries removed without anethesia so she can no longer pollute our species with her genes, but I also want to give credit where credit is due. While 90% of this aftermath debacle is of local making, it was...hell still is...not beyond resolution if the DHS would get it's collective head out of its ass and get things under control. \turns off 'Braveheart' and steps off of high horse The biggest problem was the lack of desire to deal with the lawlessness and looting. It snowballed and the 'lord of the flies' mentality that exists now is a direct result of this inaction. Thank you moral relativism, political correctness, and the compassion and understanding industries. Why do people think that human nature can be altered or even tamed? -bear |
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http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/090205Z.shtml Excerpt: Quote:
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Presidents apponting croonies is how it's always worked. I take exception to it, but I'm unsure how it's relevant, or particularly shocking in this or any instance. The only thing I found interesting in that snip, Elpheba, is this: "...an oversized entitlement program..." And agree 100% with that assesment of FEMA. -bear PS. I'm not even going to 'touch' that source, btw... |
Are people really surprised at this?
Our country is horrible at handling disasters mainly because those who SHOULD be prepared are too arrogant in thinking it will never happen, or the methods they have in place are sufficient enough. 9/11 proved otherwise. You'd figure after that, our country would have a better grip on how to handle disaster areas - we don't. Why? Nothing is different. Because all this time you've been thinking you're much safer when in reality it's just not true. At least 9/11 was a unique case in that they didn't know how to handle buildings collapsing in the midst of a populated city like NYC - so not being ready is understandable (to a point). In a situation like this... there's no excuse. It's no surprise that area of the country gets slammed each year by hurricanes. You would think those in charge would have a plan to prepare for the worst - assume each hurricane is a class 5. Shit, I know if I was living in or in charge of a city BELOW SEA LEVEL, I'd wanna make sure the man-made structures in place can withstand the highest natural disaster - that didn't happen. Bad move and ignorance on their part. As for the fed govt taking their sweet ass time gettin there... again, no surprise. They should've been ready for the worst when the hurricane was first announced. ALWAYS have troops and supplies ready to go because you don't know what's gonna happen - they failed in that aspect. We simply don't know how to handle crisis situations and live under the illusion that when something bad happens, the govt will wave a magic wand and fix it all. They're just as clueless as we are. |
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Granted, there are local bosses who are being equally slimy, and people in the chain of command all the way up who are dropping balls. But at the end of the day, who's the top dog of the pile of FEMA and their operations in New Orleans? FEMA being under the authority of the Department for Homeland Security, a cabinet-level department? Whooooose cabinet? ;) The buck absolutely without a doubt does NOT Stop Here with this president. That's why it doesn't stop with anyone else all the way down--there's nobody at the top holding the line. It's all politics. A fish rots from the head down. NOLA smells a lot like rotten fish these days. |
This is hilarious. Mother nature decided to royally fuck shit up, and everyone here seems to want to turn it into a political argument. I don't care if you have a million people helping out in New Orleans and the surrounding areas, there is no way to prepare for shit like this in a satisfactory manner. It is going to be chaos, regardless of where the president is or who the president is or how many precautions a governor made beforehand. It is going to take some time to figure out what in the hell people are supposed to do and figure out how in the hell they are supposed to do it. You can't just throw money at this disaster and expect it to get fixed. You also cant just throw people at it and expect it to get fixed.
No matter how much you think you can control these types of situations, you just cant. |
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Nagin is no Guliani, and that's where most of the problem stems from. Why didn't Bush send in the National Guard? It could be because the National Guard is commanded by the State Governors, unless they are called into Federal service. Had Bush stripped the State Governors of their most potent asset, what do you think the response would have been? |
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I don't agree with you that FEMA was an entitlement program. The agency had rightfully gained some respect for it's multi-state responses to natural disasters. I have no argument with the decision to move FEMA under the Homeland Security banner, but a Federal first response team for either natural or unnatural disasters seems to have withered away. The Federal government responding to any kind of multi-state catastrophe is not an entitlement, but a duty. |
once again we have someone linking 9/11 to the war on iraq. were the two related?
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You live in hurricane alley, you have a city BELOW sea level, and the only thing you have to protect you from flooding is badly outdated man-made barriers. None of this, prior to the hurriane, was news or a surprise to anyone. That's just disaster waiting to happen - and as we can see, that's exactly what happened. Nature is bad and uncontrollable, BUT they could've definitely done something about this particular situation ahead of time. They didn't and now they're payin the price. |
i'm startled at how many people seem think it's the federal government's role to protect us from natural phenomena.
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yes, that's exactly what i mean.
i'm not absolving the federal government from all involvement, but the whining and complaining about the level of federal support is making me nauseous. |
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I'm not saying that the government response has been terrible given the magnitude of what's happened, but for the head of FEMA to be less informed than the average journalist several days later, that's reprehensible. |
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It is fascinating to me, how the education in this country produces citizens who have zero understanding of what the actual role of their government is. "Oh please all mighty government..save me from myself!" -bear |
What kind of anarchist are you anyway? A big government anarchist? :rolleyes:
-bear |
well....obviously this thread has gone beyond the point of useful information. I seriously wanted to get a feel for whether or not people felt FEMA did its job....and appreciate the replys.
Re-opened at member request |
Today Salon magazine came out with an article on this thread topic, "Why FEMA failed". It's an interesting article, posted in full below for linkaphobic folks.
This article summarizes many of the points already made in this thread, but backs them up with some interesting attributions. Basically it's saying what is becoming increasingly obvious: FEMA failed for conservative ideological reasons, namely that the current administration has taken the line that the federal government should have a much lower profile in local disasters than in the past, and the local governments should take on much greater responsibility and cost than in the past. The problem with this position, in my view, is that disasters of this magnitude completely, utterly overwhelm the local resources, and without federal assistance, people will die, possibly in great numbers. In fact that seems to be precisely what happened in the case of Katrina. BTW, this is just one of many news analyses out today that looks critically at the detailed behavior of FEMA in the days after Katrina, all coming to pretty much the same conclusion. Quote:
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From 1991 to 2001, Michael Brown was the Commissioner of the International Arabian Horse Association. A position from which he was forced to resign in the face of mounting litigation and financial disarray.
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THIS is the man that the President of the United States saw fit to bestow as the head of the Federal Emergency Management Administration. Based on what, exactly? His experience in mismanagement, or his experience in writing large checks? There will come a time of reckoning. And I predict that Michael Brown, rather that be fired for gross incompetence, will instead be awarded the Medal of Freedom. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...s/16bc5ac9.gif |
As much as I have wanted to post that^^^^^^I didnt.
Thanx Bill. |
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I think there is plenty of blame to go around from the top (Bush) on down to FEMA, to the Govenor, the Mayor and many individuals on the ground.
Regardless of what Bush was supposed to do he failed with regards to the PR on this. He should have dropped everything and rushed back to DC to "coordinate" efforts. This was a national disaster and he should have at least appeared to be on the ball. His handlers failed him and for a leader who has shown an uncanny ability to control his image in the media, this is BIG. FEMA appeared to operate like a chicken with its head cut off. Despite declarations of Distaster Areas from both Federal and State levels the help didn't seem to flow fast enough. It seems it was tied up in paperwork and mismanagement. Seems to me that if you are going to have an agency of this nature it should be able to get shit done when it matters most. It did work in the past so I can only assume (at this point) that when something works you shouldn't fix it... Homeland Security has some 'splaining to do. As does Bush for appointing the yahoo in charge of FEMA, this seems like one postion that should have an expert rather than a crony or someone who gives good campaign finance. The Govenor and the Mayor... they both seem to be trying hard but it just isn't enough. I get the feeling that they are a lot like the people on the ground who just never thought it could get this bad. In the end... they really should have been more prepared and made more effort on getting people out of harms way. Martial Law should have been declared immediately after the storm had passed and National Guards should have been preped and on standby days BEFORE the storm. You can always send them home if they aren't needed. The people who stayed behind. I don't blame them, like some do for staying. I do blame those who would loot and shoot at rescue efforts. Unlike other areas, where communities banded together, certain elements of New Orleans behaved like they were in a Living Dead film. I am glad to hear that Bush has called for an inquest into what happened. At least he seems to be back on track -- looking like he's doing something. In the end, regardless of who is to blame the storm was a disaster, the organization of the rescue and post-storm support was a tragedy. |
I think the other shoe has to drop. FEMA failed, but so did local government. The mayor and governor clearly weren't communicating well or coordinating services, and neither of them actually requested help from FEMA in anticipation of being overwhelmed, as they are required to do -- FEMA doesn't mobilize until they are asked to by local governments.
I haven't seen any evidence that New Orleans has/had a plan to evacuate the poor and the elderly, both of which are chronic concerns of the city. In the end, I think there will be a new definition of "mandatory evacuation" in the face of a natural disaster, and who is responsible for the cost of such a big undertaking. |
I've been waiting out this topic a bit, but I have to say that I do think that ultimately we are seeing a systemic failure on a national level. I think the response of FEMA has inadequate, and from I can see its potentially symptomatic of the national agencies expecting / trying to transition to a more local-oriented response, and the local levels expecting more federal involvement. End result : no one takes responsibility. In a state of transition, no one knew where the responsibility lay, everyone thought it was someone else's job, and no one ponied up and took responsibility.
That's what I find so appalling. I personally don't hold the mayor as accountable as it seems some do (he seems to have been fairly vocal in expressing the needs of his city) - but I would be curious to know how much previous mayors and governors in disaster areas have had to personally head up evacuations? In previous situations, before the re-alignment of FEMA in the DHS, was their role mostly to make calls to the Feds and then following orders that the Feds passed down? I'll admit I'm not a fan of the current administration. Regardless of my feelings on other political topics, I don't feel this is political. I am appalled by the lack of leadership that has been displayed on the national level. I would think that after the federal and state levels of emergency were declared, that if I were the head of FEMA and I saw practically nothing being done to get the relief in, I would calling everyone I could think of to get the ball rolling. And if I were the President, or the head of Homeland Security, and the guy underneath me wasn't making the calls - I would call his ass, and I would make the appropriate calls to get the process started. Even if the state and city totalled fucked up, if I had the authority to take over (which they did after the States of Emergency were issued) I'd like to think I'd do what was necessary to get the relief in. It may not be part of Bush's resume. It may not be part of Chertoff's resume. In my opinion, a part of leadership is going above and beyond in critical times to make sure that the appropriate actions are taken, even if it's not your job. |
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I'm no friend of the Bush administration, either. But a city that's below sea level should have comprehensive plans for evacuation, which FEMA could assist if necessary. I think all the relevant governments were not prepared, and therefore FEMA ought not to bear the brunt of the criticism. FEMA also should not be subsumed by another government agency. It ought to be accountable only to the President. |
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edit : My html tags aren't working, and I don't have time to troubleshoot. The bolded part was about FEMA not bearing the brunt of the criticism. I think that National levels ultimately get hit for not taking responsibility after local efforts failed or were never in place to start with. |
I am compelled to share some articles that I read today. The first one describes the number of ways that FEMA failed in it's response to Katrina, and the reasons behind that failure. There is some repetition here from previous posts, but the article pulls it all together, historically. As I have stated elsewhere, I am not in disagreement with folding FEMA into HS. I'm also a fiscal conservative and approve a small federal government with emphasis on state's rights and responsibilities. But what has resulted is not the once reputable FEMA.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20.../index_np.html Quote:
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FEMA was able to respond to Pat Robertson with great spead, however. In another topic, Robertson's influence within the Republican party has been discussed at length.
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I had already read an AP article in this morning's paper that "Brownie" requested 1,000 Homeland Security employees to be dispatched into the stricken region to "convey a positive image of disaster operations to government officials, community organizations and the general public."
I really wasn't ready for this additional PR move, however. Quote:
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Apparently the LA state govt. deserves some more blame.
According to this article, LA (through the Army Corp. of engineers) has actually had more flood abatement funding under Bush than Clinton, but the legistlators have been funneling the money into porkbarrel projects...including funds meant for a project at the spot the levy broke. http://www.startribune.com/stories/125/5602732.html -------------------------------------------------------------------- Army's engineers spent millions on Louisiana projects labeled as pork Michael Grunwald, Washington Post September 8, 2005 CORPS0908 WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Before Hurricane Katrina breached a levee on the New Orleans Industrial Canal, the Army Corps of Engineers had launched a $748 million construction project at that very location. But the project had nothing to do with flood control. The Corps was building a massive new lock for the canal, an effort to accommodate steadily increasing barge traffic. Except barge traffic on the canal has been steadily decreasing. In Katrina's wake, Louisiana politicians and other critics have complained about paltry funding for the Army Corps in general and Louisiana projects in particular. But over the five years of President Bush's administration, Louisiana has received far more money for Corps civil works projects than any other state, about $1.9 billion; California was a distant second with less than $1.4 billion, even though its population is more than seven times larger. Much of that Louisiana money was spent to try to keep low-lying New Orleans dry. But hundreds of millions of dollars have gone to unrelated water projects demanded by the state's congressional delegation and approved by the Corps, often after economic analyses that turned out to be inaccurate. Despite a series of independent investigations criticizing Army Corps construction projects as wasteful pork-barrel spending, Louisiana's representatives have kept bringing home the bacon. For example, after a $194 million deepening project for the Port of Iberia flunked a Corps cost-benefit analysis, Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-La., tucked language into an emergency Iraq spending bill ordering the agency to redo its calculations. The Corps also spends tens of millions of dollars a year dredging little-used waterways like the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet, the Atchafalaya River and the Red River -- now known as the J. Bennett Johnston Waterway, in honor of the project's congressional godfather -- for barge traffic that turns out to be less than forecast. Most controversial The Industrial Canal lock is one of the agency's most controversial projects, sued by residents of a New Orleans low-income black neighborhood and cited by an alliance of environmentalists and taxpayer advocates as the fifth-worst current Corps boondoggle. In 1998, the Corps justified its plan to build a new lock -- rather than fix the old lock for a tiny fraction of the cost -- by predicting huge increases in barge traffic. In fact, barge traffic on the canal had been plummeting since 1994, but the Corps left that data out of its study. And barges have continued to avoid the canal since the study was finished, even though they are visiting the port in increased numbers. Pam Dashiell, president of the Holy Cross Neighborhood Association, remembers holding a protest against the lock four years ago -- right where the levee broke last week. Now she's holed up with her family in a St. Louis hotel, and her neighborhood is underwater. "Our politicians never cared half as much about protecting us as they cared about pork," she said. Wednesday, congressional defenders of the Corps said they hoped the fallout from Hurricane Katrina would pave the way for billions of dollars of additional spending on water projects. Steve Ellis, a Corps critic with Taxpayers for Common Sense, called their push "the legislative equivalent of looting." Louisiana's politicians have requested much more money for New Orleans hurricane protection than the Bush administration has proposed or Congress has provided. In the last budget bill, Louisiana's delegation requested $27.1 million for shoring up levees around Lake Pontchartrain, the full amount the Corps had declared as its "project capability." Bush suggested $3.9 million, and Congress agreed to spend $5.7 million. Administration officials also scaled back a long-term project to restore Louisiana's disappearing coastal marshes, which once provided a measure of natural hurricane protection for New Orleans. They ordered the Corps to stop work on a $14 billion plan and devise a $2 billion plan instead. Levees only so strong But overall, the Bush administration's funding requests for the key New Orleans flood-control projects for the past five years were slightly higher than the Clinton administration's for its past five years. Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, the chief of the Corps, has said that in any event, more money would not have prevented the drowning of the city, since its levees were only designed to protect against a Category 3 storm. Strock also has said the marsh restoration project would not have done much to diminish Katrina's storm surge, which passed east of the coastal wetlands. "The project manager for the Great Pyramids probably put in a request for 100 million shekels and only got 50 million," said John Paul Woodley Jr., the Bush administration official overseeing the Corps. "Flood protection is always a work in progress; on any given day, if you ask whether any community has all the protection it needs, the answer is almost always: Maybe, but maybe not." The Corps had been studying the possibility of upgrading the New Orleans levees for a higher level of protection before Katrina hit, but Woodley said that study would not have been finished for years. Still, liberal bloggers, Democratic politicians and some Republican defenders of the Corps have linked the catastrophe to the underfunding of the agency. "We've been hollering about funding for years, but everyone would say: There goes Louisiana again, asking for more money," said former Democratic senator John Breaux. "We've had some powerful people in powerful places, but we never got what we needed." |
Looks like Louisiana failed FEMA.
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The article is about misappropriation of army corps of engineer funding. It does nothing to let FEMA off the hook, it still responded way too groggily.
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"We got $5 million from Clinton. We asked for $10 million from Bush. Bush only gave us $5.5 million. BUSH CUT OUR FUNDS!!!" |
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Who the F cares????? What we have here are 1000's dead and dying and fucking fingers being pointed. Yes, FEMA fucked up..... yes, Bush fucked up and yes, the governor fucked up.... NOW IS THAT GOING TO SAVE ANYONE???????? FUCK NO!!!!!!!!! Get FEMA off their ass and allow the luxury liners, the water, the diesel fuel, the first responders from other states to come in. Let the Cuban Doctors in, let the other countries help us..... Hey Zeus Freckling Crisp, they are doing so to show caring and support....... that's far more than the victims got from OUR GODDAMNED IDIOT POLITICIANS AND THE FUCKING TALKING HEADS WHO KEEP POINTING FINGERS AND DOING SHIT......... Stop pointing those GODDAMNED fingers and fucking do something, Hey Zeus Freckling Crisp, are we so divided in this country that we're willing to let 1000's upon 1000's die just so a mother fucking political party can take advantage of the tragedy????? WTF????? Last time I checked, the people dying were PEOPLE not political philosophies, not some fucking religious martyrs,...... FUCKING PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND I..... DESERVING TO HAVE OUR COUNTRY'S GOVERNMENT AND THEIR STATE'S WORKING TOGETHER AND FUCKING HELPING THEM...... Not have everyone point fingers and blame the other side...... WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED TO SOMEONE BEING BETTER AND JUST TAKING THE HIGH ROAD AND LETTING THE OTHER SIDE EITHER KEEP WALLOWING OR FOLLOW?????????? I am sickened by this and by the holier than thou attitudes from some people on here, the media and real life, who believe they can point fingers and show that their political party was right...... FUCK THAT...... 1000'S ARE DEAD You want to be right????? Tell the 1000's upon 1000's that lost everything, and the people that died your side was fucking right and that you were to busy playing politics to FUCKING HELP THEM!!!!!!!!!! You want to be "the one who cared the most", yet pointed fingers and did shit (BOTH parties are guilty). I am very ashamed and disappointed to be an American today...... |
While I believe (and always have said) that all levels of government are at fault here, the fact is that the problems within New Orleans are specific to New Orleans. The faults of New Orleans are pretty likely going to be irrelevant to the next hurricane or terrorist attack, which could occur anywhere. However the faults of FEMA and the current administration will be anything but irrelevant to the next disaster or terrorist attack. They will rather be center stage again.
So if you want to think in terms of risk: failure to quickly correct the faults of FEMA carries much greater immediate risk to American citizens than failure to quickly correct the faults of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans, which is likely not to experience another Katrina for 300 years. My feeling is that if we are truly concerned about improving our current emergency preparedness in order to save American lives, we need to focus most or our attention on the federal government. |
I agree completely that FEMA needs to be reconstituted into the agency it once was. Given that the hurricane season isn't over yet, the dangers to the gulf coast states need to remain upper most in current disaster planning. My question is whether we have any central coordinating agency to deal with the next hurricane *this* year.
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Black, white, purple, blue, red, yellow, polka dot..... who the fuck cares??????? 1000's are dead and dying, wading in raw sewage trying to just live and THIS is all you can say????????? If it were you and you lost everything you owned, had to tread water for 5 days and watched people fucking die before your eyes......... don't you think you deserve some fucking help from our Goddamned government and not fingers being pointed at your race? And so what if they are the ones pointing it out..... I don't give a flying fuck, they need fucking help. THEY ARE PEOPLE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD THEY DESERVE AND NEED OUR HELP AND WE'RE GOING TO SIT AND ARGUE OVER PARTY AND RACE??????? The fucking racism (both sides) on this board and in this country is fucking pathetic. I thought we were getting past all this. From what you posted, all I have left to say is I pray you never have to go through what those PEOPLE had to and shall have to. |
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