It's time to pay your "FAIR" tax at the gas pump - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

CShine · 08-31-2005, 11:45 PM

I paid $3.39 per gallon at the gas pump today, which I understand is at the LOW end of what most Americans are now paying for gasoline.

Many of us have seen the recent threads telling us that we are somehow morally obligated to pay an extra 30% on top of that in "FAIR" taxes, as Mr. Neil Boortz says we should. That means I should've had to pay $4.42 per gallon in the relatively low-priced region where I'm lucky enough to live, and you, most likely, should've had to pay even MORE.

Translation: when prices go through the roof it's the LITTLE GUY like you who should pay through the nose.

Never mind that Boortz's 23% "tax inclusive rate" is a statistical lie. He's REALLY arguing for a 30% sales tax rate. If you don't believe me then google something like "Boortz tax inclusive rate." What you'll find is a wealth of information telling you how you'll pay 30% sales tax on EVERYTHING if you go for Boortz's BS.

Boortz says he's arguing for a 23% "tax inclusive rate." Google it if you don't believe me. "Tax inclusive rate" means that 23% of every dollar is taken in taxes. Google it if you don't believe me. When 23% of every dollar is taken in taxes that means that you're levying a 23% sales tax rate on 77 cents, not 1 dollar. Google it if you don't believe me. Divide 23 by 77 and you get 30%. Use your calculator if you don't believe me.

When your gas prices go up by more than a buck in a single week, it's "FAIR" for you to pay an extra 30% percent sales tax on it, SUCKA!!!

So says Neil Boortz. PAY UP, BABY!!!

Paq · 09-01-2005, 01:21 AM

woohoo, someone else paid around what i paid for gas today...it's such a great day when gas is more expensive than milk...

related story, i drive a small car that gets roughly 28-30mpg and has a roughly 15 gallon gas tank. As of today, it is cheaper for me to buy a new battery for my car than it is to fill it up with gas. Even an oil change is now roughly $20 cheaper....

As for this 30% tax, i don't think i've heard anything about it. Got a link or should i just google a bit?

...nevermind, found his show..this guy is what, matt drudge, limbaugh and robertson all in one?

ryfo · 09-01-2005, 01:54 AM

Hey, I live in Austra;ia amd I am paying around 1.27 litre, what does this equate to in $/gallon? We have bbeen told it probably go up to $1.35/L cos of Katrina sending oil prices up

cyrnel · 09-01-2005, 02:00 AM

How does our (USA) refining and pipeline system affect gasoline prices in other countries? That sounds opportunistic. We don't import refined product, or export crude for gasoline refineries elsewhere, do we?

$2.53 here Monday morning, $2.58 in the afternoon, $2.63 this morning. The expensive stations are above $2.75, just bumping into $3 for premium.

ryfo · 09-01-2005, 02:06 AM

hey, it seems that other countries just sneeze and we pay more for something, anyway the govenment heaps tax on the price and wont change it

connyosis · 09-01-2005, 02:23 AM

$3.39/gallon? You spoiled bastard! We pay around $1.50/litre here, which would be ca $5.60/gallon. Let's just say I'm not getting a car anytime soon...

Silvy · 09-01-2005, 03:10 AM

Quote:

How does our (USA) refining and pipeline system affect gasoline prices in other countries? That sounds opportunistic.

Crude oil is traded on an international market.
The US will need to import more oil, and so worldwide demand rises. (without siginificant increase in production)

Economical rules state that prices go up in that case. This goes for all major players on the oil market, meaning that gasoline prices will spike everywhere.
(common business "sense" means that price increase for raw materials should be calculated in the consumer price ASAP, while price decreases should flow through as slow as possible, and often not at all. But this is beside the point)

I haven't got a clue to what the price change around here will be, but we're paying around 1.40 euro/liter which comes around to 5.29 euro/gallon which (at current rates means) USD 6.19/gallon for regular unleaded fuel.
So I think we're paying enough as it is. (btw, over 70% goes straight to the governments allowance)

Daniel_ · 09-01-2005, 03:41 AM

It's just about to hit £1.00 per litre here.

That's ~£4.50 per gallon.

Which is about US$7.

And that's BEFORE price hikes brought about by Katerina.

That said, I drive a car that routinely does 45mpg.

aKula · 09-01-2005, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryfo

Hey, I live in Austra;ia amd I am paying around 1.27 litre, what does this equate to in $/gallon? We have bbeen told it probably go up to $1.35/L cos of Katrina sending oil prices up

$A1.27/Litre is around US$3.60/Gallon.
In Germany prices are around double that of the USA, though you can be refunded a proportion of the taxes if you drive to work. On the Aral site I found the Super price to be Euro1.37/L which is around US$6.40/Gallon. I think petrol prices will stay high, even if the oil price stabilises or drops a little. The problem in the USA is that oil prices are high and refining capacity is being used at nearly 100%. Now the hurricane has knocked out both crude oil available and refining capacity.

ShaniFaye · 09-01-2005, 04:07 AM

how many times can a person say Google it if you don't believe me...geez

I paid 3.19 this morning, one gas station had it for 2.99 but you couldnt get into the parking lot (at friggin 6 am)

madcow · 09-01-2005, 04:17 AM

Cshine, you are leaving out so much information about the fair tax plan that it's not even funny. Regardless if whether the proposed tax rate is 23% or 30%, the main idea of the fair tax plan is to eliminate all federal taxes (including income tax) and instead have a national sales tax. People also get reembursed for the taxes they pay up to the poverty line, so essentials that people buy will in essence not be taxed. The whole idea is people pay for what the consume. Also, everyone pays taxes including illegal immigrants getting paid under the table because they taxes are taken out at the merchant level not the employer level. I think it's an idea worth investigating further.

09-01-2005, 04:32 AM

Now is the time to buy stock in alternative energy companies - LPG, hydrogen fuel cell and electric/hybrid engines are all available right now - the price of gas is never going to go down, because it's a limited resource - as it becomes more expensive to produce, prices will go up, and as prices go up, tensions will increase in oil producing countries, those tensions will occasionally erupt in violence, cutting supply, raising prices even higher and so on.

So if you think it's bad now, just wait another 5 years...

ShaniFaye · 09-01-2005, 04:43 AM

Im so for the fair tax.....I'd gladly pay a national sales tax knowing EVERYBODY had to pay. Boortz and Linders book makes a lot of sense.

pan6467 · 09-01-2005, 05:39 AM

Just a couple ponderances and opinion on the issue:

Is this not what we get for electing an oilman for president (regardless of party)?

More taxes on gas would just add to the problems, we are not pursuing any alternative fuels, the taxes would hurt more than they help, and you are punishing those who, like I, have to actually drive a distance to work and school.

Could this not be our supposed allies in OPEC saying "oh and while you are in Iraq..... we're going to fucking bankrupt your asses."?

How soon until inflation starts beating on the door wanting in?

Aren't Congress and the President proud of themselves now that a gallon of gas almost is equal to minimum wage and what temp services pay?

How come oil companies show grotesque profits if we are just paying "market price"?

How come the independants and the small gas guys are struggling as these huge companies make more profit than almost all other industries (except healthcare) combined?

Before inflation rears it's ugly head why can't we just do what Hawaii tried to do in a national scenario..... call gas a public utility and freeze prices? If we freeze prices, don't ya think the price on a barrel will actually fall?

How soon do you think it will be before we see people truly losing everything?

Inflation is coming hard, wages aren't going up, and natural gas/heating oil for houses is going to hit all time highs also causing electric and heating this winter to pretty much bankrupt us. And if that doesn't when everyone has to raise prices on goods to compensate for the outrageous prices...... we'll see immense raise in prices and wages that won't buy shit.

Our economy is based on our purchasing power and when we can't purchase, things will close, jobs lost, tax revenue lost and we'll be done. Something has to be done to correct the problem and fast.

cyrnel · 09-01-2005, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silvy

Crude oil is traded on an international market.
The US will need to import more oil, and so worldwide demand rises. (without siginificant increase in production)

I'm talking about Katrina. Why would we need to import more crude and therefore affect global prices, which is what ryfo was suggesting? The reality is Katrina has temporarily reduced our consumption by taking people off the roads and slowing the pipelines. Our refined goods demand is way up, due to fear and reduced supply but how does that affect the crude market?

Maybe we need other sources. Are other people outside the U.S. being told Katrina is affecting their gas prices?

alansmithee · 09-01-2005, 10:18 AM

Why is the "fair tax" even an issue any more? It's only the most regressive, stupid, nonsensical tax scheme ever. Seriously, all it does is punish people who make less and decrease tax revenue severely, at the same time giving corporations a big profit boost. There is no way you can make that not true using the fair tax scheme. Anyone who is advocating this plan has no understanding of economy whatsoever.

Daniel_ · 09-01-2005, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyrnel

I'm talking about Katrina. Why would we need to import more crude and therefore affect global prices, which is what ryfo was suggesting? The reality is Katrina has temporarily reduced our consumption by taking people off the roads and slowing the pipelines. Our refined goods demand is way up, due to fear and reduced supply but how does that affect the crude market?

Maybe we need other sources. Are other people outside the U.S. being told Katrina is affecting their gas prices?

Simple explanation on the BBC news earlier this evening.

It works like this.

Supply in the US fell through the floor the other day.

So demand went up.

So prices rise.

Right now the highest cost (pre-tax) for gasoline is in the US - it's only so cheap there because you have so little tax on it.

Once the value of gasoline in the US = the value in Europe + the cost of shipping it across the atlantic, the Oil companies will make more profit by selling what they have in the US.

That kills supply in Europe.

Which causes us to have a price rise.

This will see-saw back and forth between Europe and the States (and all other global markets) regardless of where the gas came from.

In fact, if the board of the oil corps didn't ship it to the US, the shareholders would be expected to boot them out for not "maximising shareholder value".

The fact is that no economy in the world is isolated from the effects of global markets, no matter what Bush says.

Dyze · 09-01-2005, 02:28 PM

Daniel, you have a point there but you don´t see the whole picture.
7 refineries in the Gulf are out or order. People in the US still demand gas and fill their tanks constantly up. The fear is a gas shortage or overnight price increase.
So the US buys gas on the world market to supply the nation which leads to a shortage for the rest of the world. Ergo, gas prices everywhere go up.
Same happened with the Chinese buying steel.

Daniel_ · 09-02-2005, 01:51 AM

Erm - Dyze.

a) It's not my point, I was repeating a comment made on the BBC.

b) I said exactly the same as you tried to tell me I ought to have said.

Daniel_ · 09-02-2005, 01:53 AM

The place that you're wrong is that "the US" doesn't buy gas.

The oli companies (who are global - we all use the same ones) decide to sell their fuel in te way that makes them the most money.

It's the free market for you.

Remind me again how a free market gives everyone the lowest prices?

MoonDog · 09-02-2005, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyrnel

How does our (USA) refining and pipeline system affect gasoline prices in other countries? That sounds opportunistic. We don't import refined product, or export crude for gasoline refineries elsewhere, do we?

$2.53 here Monday morning, $2.58 in the afternoon, $2.63 this morning. The expensive stations are above $2.75, just bumping into $3 for premium.

Actually, I believe that at least SOME of our Alaskan oil does get exported to countries like Japan. I could be wrong, though.

Marvelous Marv · 09-02-2005, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Just a couple ponderances and opinion on the issue:

Is this not what we get for electing an oilman for president (regardless of party)?

More taxes on gas would just add to the problems, we are not pursuing any alternative fuels, the taxes would hurt more than they help, and you are punishing those who, like I, have to actually drive a distance to work and school.

Could this not be our supposed allies in OPEC saying "oh and while you are in Iraq..... we're going to fucking bankrupt your asses."?

How soon until inflation starts beating on the door wanting in?

Aren't Congress and the President proud of themselves now that a gallon of gas almost is equal to minimum wage and what temp services pay?

How come oil companies show grotesque profits if we are just paying "market price"?

How come the independants and the small gas guys are struggling as these huge companies make more profit than almost all other industries (except healthcare) combined?

Before inflation rears it's ugly head why can't we just do what Hawaii tried to do in a national scenario..... call gas a public utility and freeze prices? If we freeze prices, don't ya think the price on a barrel will actually fall?

How soon do you think it will be before we see people truly losing everything?

Inflation is coming hard, wages aren't going up, and natural gas/heating oil for houses is going to hit all time highs also causing electric and heating this winter to pretty much bankrupt us. And if that doesn't when everyone has to raise prices on goods to compensate for the outrageous prices...... we'll see immense raise in prices and wages that won't buy shit.

Our economy is based on our purchasing power and when we can't purchase, things will close, jobs lost, tax revenue lost and we'll be done. Something has to be done to correct the problem and fast.

Sure glad we've got people protesting Bush's suggestion to drill in the ANWR, as was specified when it was created under Jimmy Carter.

What a silly man Bush is--he wants to increase our supply of oil.

Marvelous Marv · 09-02-2005, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CShine

I paid $3.39 per gallon at the gas pump today, which I understand is at the LOW end of what most Americans are now paying for gasoline.

Many of us have seen the recent threads telling us that we are somehow morally obligated to pay an extra 30% on top of that in "FAIR" taxes, as Mr. Neil Boortz says we should. That means I should've had to pay $4.42 per gallon in the relatively low-priced region where I'm lucky enough to live, and you, most likely, should've had to pay even MORE.

Translation: when prices go through the roof it's the LITTLE GUY like you who should pay through the nose.

Never mind that Boortz's 23% "tax inclusive rate" is a statistical lie. He's REALLY arguing for a 30% sales tax rate. If you don't believe me then google something like "Boortz tax inclusive rate." What you'll find is a wealth of information telling you how you'll pay 30% sales tax on EVERYTHING if you go for Boortz's BS.

Boortz says he's arguing for a 23% "tax inclusive rate." Google it if you don't believe me. "Tax inclusive rate" means that 23% of every dollar is taken in taxes. Google it if you don't believe me. When 23% of every dollar is taken in taxes that means that you're levying a 23% sales tax rate on 77 cents, not 1 dollar. Google it if you don't believe me. Divide 23 by 77 and you get 30%. Use your calculator if you don't believe me.

When your gas prices go up by more than a buck in a single week, it's "FAIR" for you to pay an extra 30% percent sales tax on it, SUCKA!!!

So says Neil Boortz. PAY UP, BABY!!!

The only thing I can gather from this post is that you have totally misinterpreted the fair tax concept. It's not 23% of every dollar, it's 23% of every dollar SPENT, with an allowance for the poverty level. And it's to REPLACE the existing taxes.

Time for you to Google a lot more.

kutulu · 09-02-2005, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

Why is the "fair tax" even an issue any more? It's only the most regressive, stupid, nonsensical tax scheme ever. Seriously, all it does is punish people who make less and decrease tax revenue severely, at the same time giving corporations a big profit boost. There is no way you can make that not true using the fair tax scheme. Anyone who is advocating this plan has no understanding of economy whatsoever.

It's nice to see someone actually using their heads when thinking about the fair tax. It's a fucking pipe dream designed to make the rich richer.

CShine · 09-03-2005, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

The only thing I can gather from this post is that you have totally misinterpreted the fair tax concept. It's not 23% of every dollar, it's 23% of every dollar SPENT, with an allowance for the poverty level.

That's a lie. Do your homework. Even Neil Boortz freely admits that the tax he proposes is 30 cents on the dollar. His " 23% tax inclusive rate" = a 30% sales tax. I've already explained that for you in explicit terms. If you don't believe me then google the words "tax inclusive rate" and you'll find that I'm speaking the 100% truth. Do your research before you talk.

healer · 09-03-2005, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_

It's just about to hit £1.00 per litre here.

That's ~£4.50 per gallon.

Which is about US$7.

And I thought we (South Africans) had it bad. I pay about R5.50 a litre at the moment, with prices set to increase by about 20-30c come Wednesday.
So with $1 = R6.24 and £1 = R11.53 I guess I'm not paying that much after all.

Am I comforted by that thought? Definitely not.

AngelicVampire · 09-03-2005, 03:55 PM

depends on the cost of living there, what is R5.50 in your country? £1/litre here is roughly 1/4 of minimum wage per litre (so a person on minimum wage can basically buy a gallon of fuel an hour), our average wage iirc is around £16,000 a year (currently ~$29,450). How does this compare to the US/South Africa (cost of living is all important within a country, paying people 10cents a day when a good wage is 8cents a day is good, paying people 10cents a day when they need 15 to live is generally bad...)

Marvelous Marv · 09-04-2005, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CShine

That's a lie. Do your homework. Even Neil Boortz freely admits that the tax he proposes is 30 cents on the dollar.[Not.] His " 23% tax inclusive rate" = a 30% sales tax. I've already explained that for you in explicit terms. If you don't believe me then google the words "tax inclusive rate" and you'll find that I'm speaking the 100% truth. Do your research before you talk.

I can only assume, from your shrill response, and the hour at which you posted, that you've had way too much coffee or other stimulation.

This may be why you missed, in your multiple Googles, Boortz's refutation of everything you're saying, and labeling a "lie." In particular, the part about embedded taxes.

One more time: You pay for gas with AFTER TAX money. Thus, the money you started out with has had SS and Medicare (approx 15%), payroll taxes (approx 20%, but variable), taken out. Then when you buy the gas, sales tax (7%?) and federal gas tax (20 cents/gal.? 30 cents? I haven't checked lately) taken out. You have to buy gas with what's left. Under the Fair Tax Plan, you get paid 100% of your salary, and 23% is taken out when you buy gas.

Here is the refutation of arguments by other people who didn't grasp the concept:

Boortz on Aug 22, 2005

Quote:

Today's Nuze: August 22, 2005
Monday -- August 22, 2005

TAKING APART THE CRITICS --- LETTER BY LETTER

One week ago yesterday the Atlanta Journal-Constitution ran a bit in the Opinion section about The FairTax. Yesterday the AJC ran some letters to the editor in response to that article. There is no real evidence that the people who wrote these letters have either read The FairTax Book or made any independent study of H.R. 25. So --- time for some educating. The letters are in the boxes, my responses follow. Have fun!

Fiscally irresponsible move in light of pressing needs

Imagine if the United States had initially adopted a national sales tax such as the FairTax instead of the current system. In the past (e.g., during World War II), the rate would have exceeded 100 percent. Say the current rate is 50 percent. Certainly someone would pitch the current system to replace the sales tax: "Imagine paying just 15 percent of your income in taxes and a small payroll tax, and getting a deduction for your mortgage interest and your charitable contributions. Best of all, corporations will pay their fair share. Think of the growth to the economy, when everything you buy is tax-free."

FairTax advocates are making a fiscally irresponsible pitch at a time when our country has substantial economic problems. The claims they make --- that the tax would equal the price reduction and we'd no longer have to pay income, FICA or estate and gift taxes --- are not logical. Based on a report of the Joint Committee on Taxation (an arm of Congress), the numbers don't come close to working. Economically, big government necessitates big taxes. It's only a question of who pays it and how. The FairTax is a fiscally irresponsible attempt to make the rich richer.

ALLEN BUCKLEY, Smyrna

Consumption tax rates exceeding 100%? Where does that come from? And what does Mr. Buckley mean by that "Say the current rate is 50 percent" line? Maybe we learn all we need to know about Mr. Buckley when we read his "Best of all, corporations will pay their fair share." Here we have a writer of a letter to the editor who actually believes that corporations pay taxes. This, I suspect, is the result of a government school education. Quick lesson, Mr. Buckley: Corporations collect taxes from their shareholders, customers and employees and pass them on to the government. All taxes are taxes on wealth, and corporations hold no wealth. To fully understand Allen Buckley, just look at the last sentence. This is all an attempt to make the rich richer. Wealth envy strikes again. The fact is that no class benefits more from the FairTax than the poor.

Plan removes obstacles to monopoly on wealth

The FairTax would remove a weapon in law enforcement's arsenal.

It would change our country from a democracy to an aristocracy. Without capital gains, estate taxes and progressive income taxes, the country's wealth would slide into the hands of those who do nothing but manipulate wealth. Those three taxes were created to avoid that.

Neal Boortz and Rep. John Linder (R-Ga.) are doing nothing but sucking up to the rich.

WILLIAM L. FELL, Alpharetta

Class warfare and wealth envy ... alive and well. Always has been, always will be. It is truly amazing the number of people who oppose the FairTax simply because they don't believe that it punishes wealthy people enough for their success. You will notice that Mr. Fell doesn't care whether or not the FairTax will fund the federal government at its current levels. He doesn't care that the FairTax will bring American capital and businesses and capital back home, nor does he care that the FairTax will completely eliminate the federal tax liability for the poor. America will become the world's biggest tax haven? So what? This matters not to Mr. Fell. William Fell is concerned that the rich aren't being punished enough. He upset because people who work hard to obtain wealth might actually be allowed to keep it. Mr. Fell, you see, doesn't believe that the rich actually earn their wealth. They don't dedicate themselves to their education. They don't go the extra mile to make sure that all decisions are well thought out. No .. the evil rich don't earn their wealth, they merely manipulate it.

OK .. let's take a poll! How would you like to raise revenue to operate the federal government?

[ ] With a system of taxation that meets the funding needs of the federal government while treating all Americans equally; a tax system that allows all Americans, rich and poor alike, to earn and to spend up to the poverty level with no federal tax consequences.

[ ] With a system of taxation that punishes achievement while meeting the funding needs of the federal government.

Mr. Fell and others like him have a common mindset. If you had the ability to read minds, here is what you might find from those consumed with wealthy envy: "That guy is no better than I am, but he's rich, and I'm not. He doesn't work any harder than I do. I work hard, every day. But he's rich, and I'm not. If you could get rich with hard, honest work I would be rich, because I'm honest and I work hard. So he must be doing something dishonest to get that money. He probably has some crooked lawyers that help him steal money from other people and cheat on his taxes. I want him punished for his dishonesty and his exploitation of people like me. I want the government to take more of his money away from him. After all, I worked for mine .. and he didn't."

Wealth envy has always been there ... always will be. This shall never change.

Make the levy smaller and guarantee support

The FairTax is touted as a tax cut and a revenue-neutral program, but the fact is it will reduce taxes for some and raise taxes for others. It's obvious who gets the cut and who gets the increase.

Another flaw is that it doesn't address human psychology. Given the opportunity, a person (rich or poor) will avoid paying taxes, regardless of whether their take-home pay is higher. I wouldn't have bought the six new homes I have over the past 20 years or the 12 new vehicles I have over the past 25 years if they'd had a 23 percent tax on them. FairTax would kill the construction and automobile industries, two of the strongest left in the United States.

If the tax were much smaller, say 1 percent to 3 percent, and included all transactions --- stock and bond purchases, business to business purchases, etc.--- then you could get some real support for it.

KAREEM SOUKA, Canton

Good Grief! Did anyone around here actually read the book before they wrote their ill-informed letters? Mr. Souka .. those six homes you bought over the past 20 years, and those 12 new vehicles, did have a 23 percent tax on them ... or more! Embedded taxes, Mr. Souka. They're there, and you paid them. The FairTax removes those embedded taxes and replaces them with an embedded consumption tax!

Plan sure to produce economic apocalypse

If the "Fair" Tax became law, it would lead to an unprecedented spending spree, a fantastic expansion of the economy, followed by an even more rapid economic collapse, depression and national bankruptcy.

The bill would not take effect for more than a year. Most folks would realize they'd be paying 30 percent (not 23 percent) more. A new $200,000 house would cost $260,000 if they delayed. But wage earners would not have taxes withheld from their paychecks and would receive a monthly check for bare necessities.

Better to borrow now and pay later with "free" money. Then, Day One of FairTax --- no immediate decrease in prices, because those goods were produced with all the abolished taxes added in. Consumption, and the tax income necessary to run the country, would fall like a stone. Do the math: lower tax income, higher tax rates and fewer people to buy. Adios, economy.

BOB HAWKINS, Duluth

Same story, different verse. Once again a letter to the editor from someone who hasn't read the book. Virtually every point made by Hawkins is absolutely dead wrong. If Mr. Hawkins had either taken the time to either read The FairTax Book, study HR 25, or visit the FairTax website he would never have written this letter. Just for starters, Mr. Hawkins, that $200,000 house would still cost about $200,000. You would understand that if you would read the book, but I don't expect you to do that, nor do I expect you to stop writing hideously uninformed letters to the editor on the subject. Now ... since we're talking about buying homes, a few more things for you to consider. Since wage earners would be getting 100% of their paychecks they will have quite a bit more cash to save for down payments and to spend on monthly mortgage payments. Furthermore, the economists who studied the effects of the FairTax have written that as the economy grows after the implementation of the FairTax home mortgage interest rates could fall by as much as 30%. Prices don't go up; people have more disposal income; and interest rates go down. Sounds like a formula for success in the home market, not disaster.

Negative side of story conveniently overlooked

Neal Boortz is telling only the good half of the story.

I would point out the deception of the 23 percent tax rate: When my doctor's bill of $100 goes to $130, it's a 30 percent tax. Boortz's backward math will lead you to believe it's 23 percent.

FairTax advocates say prices will come down 22 percent, but that is based only on estimates. Even if it were true, 22 percent still does not equal 30 percent.

I've been looking at no tax on my retirement savings until this idea came up. Under today's laws, my life insurance and small estate will go to my wife and children federal-tax free when I die. When they spend that money, it will be tax free. FairTax would tax them.

BILL SLAUGENHOP, Jasper

How many times do we have to go over this? Of course, Mr. Slaugenhop just hasn't read the book or taken it upon himself to study the FairTax further. Ok, Bill; see if you can grasp this: Your doctor's bill does not go up to $130. I have no idea where you got that figure. Your $100 dollar doctor's bill, along with the price of virtually every other consumer item and service, will remain essentially where it is today. The 23% FairTax is embedded in the cost of goods and services, and replaces the current embedded tax that averages 22%. You're right .. the 22% embedded tax figure is based on estimates .. but those estimates come from some of the best economic minds we have out there. The actual estimate, by the way, ranges up to about 24%, depending on who you're talking to. Now ... as to your last paragraph. When your family spends your inheritance they will be paying just about the same for consumer items as they would spend now. We're just replacing one tax with another of about the same percentage.

Clever idea will benefit rich while penalizing poor

The FairTax is a clever idea because it would not tax a very large portion of the income that rich people get while taxing the middle class more than now.

A family of four making $50,000 a year normally spends most of it to get by, whereas a CEO making $1 million will pay the so-called FairTax on the very small portion of his income spent on daily necessities.

A truly fair tax would exempt all income below a certain level and then progressively tax everything beyond that at a progressive rate without any deductions and loopholes.

PAVITTAR SAFIR, Roswell

Here we go with the wealth envy again. Another unsatisfied customer bemoaning the fact that the rich just aren't being punished enough. I guess Mr. Safir comes by his class envy honestly, though. It was that same wealth envy that propelled us into the 16th Amendment and the income tax in the first place. But, sorry, Mr. Safir. You're wrong. The FairTax does not tax any portion of the income that rich people get. It's not an income tax. The FairTax is a consumption tax, it taxes spending. If you assume that rich people spend more than poor and middle class people (not a difficult assumption to make) then you can see that the rich will pay more in consumption taxes than the poor. Your fondness for Karl Marx's idea of progressive taxation of the evil rich is duly noted.

Boortz fails to back up his claims with evidence

What Neal Boortz claims would be a 23 percent "tax inclusive" rate is what those of us living in the real world would call a 30 percent sales tax (in addition to state and local sales taxes). But even those numbers are suspect --- some studies claim that the real tax rate would need to be 60 percent or higher.

Boortz says those studies are flawed, but nowhere in his book (or on his show) does he cite a study supporting his proposed tax rate. The best he can do is say that FairTax proponents spent "millions of dollars" in coming up with the 23 percent rate. That's like saying the big tobacco companies spent millions producing reports that cigarette smoking is good for you. When you're the one paying the "experts," it's amazing what you can get them to come up with.

Where's the real evidence? Boortz should either put up or shut up. I think he'll do neither.

HAYDEN KEPNER, Marietta

Hayden Kepner is an Atlanta bankruptcy attorney. When The FairTax Book first came out he wrote a "review" for Amazon.com. In that review Mr. Kepner lied, either intentionally or through carelessness, about the contents of the book. You can read Hayden Kepner's prevarications and my response in the August 3rd edition of Nealz Nuze. (Click on the link to read Kepner's Amazon.com review as well as my response) Not only did I expose Kepner's distortions in the Nuze, other Amazon.com reviewers took him to task also. To his credit, Hayden Kepner does not repeat all of the mistruths (intentional distortions?) that so dominated his first review of The Fair Tax Book. He does, however, obfuscate the facts with his claim that "some studies claim that the real tax rate would need to be 60 percent or higher." Kepner knows that those are not studies of the FairTax proposal, but of altered and modified proposals that make exclusions and exceptions not included in The FairTax Bill. Kepner also drags up that old and discredited "30%" objection. He knows, and we state very clearly in the book, that if the FairTax is quoted on an "exclusive" rather than an "inclusive" basis it would calculate to roughly 30%, just as our 25% income tax bracket would calculate to 33%, and our 35% tax bracket could calculate to 53.8% if quoted the same way. The FairTax replaces the income tax. Even Hayden Kepner might, when cornered, admit that we should quote the FairTax exactly the same way we quote the tax that it is replacing. Any way you look at it, under the FairTax when you spend $100, $23 goes to the government. Get out your calculators. That would mean that 23% of the purchase price goes to the feds.

Mr. Kepner is also upset that we didn't include all of the research in the book. We're sorry, Mr. Kepner, but we didn't want to make the book 750 pages long. The research used in developing the FairTax plan is available online at Fairtax.org.

We are still anxiously awaiting a critique of The FairTax Book by Mr. Kepner that does not distort the facts. Perhaps Kepner's problem here is more with me, as a radio talk show host, than with the FairTax as a tax reform plan. Attorneys. Gotta love 'em.

A win-win proposition should have no opposition

Having just read "The FairTax Book," I'm scratching my head over some of the blogs in opposition to it.

Under the FairTax, I'd get 100 percent of my check. I'd pay no withholding tax, no Medicare tax, no Social Security tax --- no income tax at any level. I could save, buy and sell property at a profit with no tax liability. I'd pay a tax only when I bought things, at prices no different from, or perhaps less than, what I pay now. And I'd get a prebate for the necessities of life at the first of every month.

This tax would apply to everybody, regardless of income. So the FairTax is unfair and evil because . . ?

JIM CHEEK, Kennesaw

Wow! Someone who actually gets it! Thank you , Mr. Cheek!

We'll keep an eye out for more letters. In the meantime, those of you who want to actually learn the truth about the FairTax and the research behind it can either read the book or study the volumes of information available at FairTax.Org.

08-31-2005, 11:45 PM	#1 (permalink)
CShine Crazy	It's time to pay your "FAIR" tax at the gas pump I paid $3.39 per gallon at the gas pump today, which I understand is at the LOW end of what most Americans are now paying for gasoline. Many of us have seen the recent threads telling us that we are somehow morally obligated to pay an extra 30% on top of that in "FAIR" taxes, as Mr. Neil Boortz says we should. That means I should've had to pay $4.42 per gallon in the relatively low-priced region where I'm lucky enough to live, and you, most likely, should've had to pay even MORE. Translation: when prices go through the roof it's the LITTLE GUY like you who should pay through the nose. Never mind that Boortz's 23% "tax inclusive rate" is a statistical lie. He's REALLY arguing for a 30% sales tax rate. If you don't believe me then google something like "Boortz tax inclusive rate." What you'll find is a wealth of information telling you how you'll pay 30% sales tax on EVERYTHING if you go for Boortz's BS. Boortz says he's arguing for a 23% "tax inclusive rate." Google it if you don't believe me. "Tax inclusive rate" means that 23% of every dollar is taken in taxes. Google it if you don't believe me. When 23% of every dollar is taken in taxes that means that you're levying a 23% sales tax rate on 77 cents, not 1 dollar. Google it if you don't believe me. Divide 23 by 77 and you get 30%. Use your calculator if you don't believe me. When your gas prices go up by more than a buck in a single week, it's "FAIR" for you to pay an extra 30% percent sales tax on it, SUCKA!!! So says Neil Boortz. PAY UP, BABY!!! Last edited by CShine; 08-31-2005 at 11:48 PM..

09-01-2005, 01:21 AM	#2 (permalink)
Paq Junkie Location: South Carolina	woohoo, someone else paid around what i paid for gas today...it's such a great day when gas is more expensive than milk... related story, i drive a small car that gets roughly 28-30mpg and has a roughly 15 gallon gas tank. As of today, it is cheaper for me to buy a new battery for my car than it is to fill it up with gas. Even an oil change is now roughly $20 cheaper.... As for this 30% tax, i don't think i've heard anything about it. Got a link or should i just google a bit? ...nevermind, found his show..this guy is what, matt drudge, limbaugh and robertson all in one? __________________ Live. Chris Last edited by Paq; 09-01-2005 at 01:26 AM..

09-01-2005, 02:00 AM	#4 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	How does our (USA) refining and pipeline system affect gasoline prices in other countries? That sounds opportunistic. We don't import refined product, or export crude for gasoline refineries elsewhere, do we? $2.53 here Monday morning, $2.58 in the afternoon, $2.63 this morning. The expensive stations are above $2.75, just bumping into $3 for premium. __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195 Last edited by cyrnel; 09-01-2005 at 02:02 AM..

09-01-2005, 02:23 AM	#6 (permalink)
connyosis Psycho Location: Sweden - Land of the sodomite damned	$3.39/gallon? You spoiled bastard! We pay around $1.50/litre here, which would be ca $5.60/gallon. Let's just say I'm not getting a car anytime soon... __________________ If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.

09-01-2005, 03:41 AM	#8 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	It's just about to hit £1.00 per litre here. That's ~£4.50 per gallon. Which is about US$7. And that's BEFORE price hikes brought about by Katerina. That said, I drive a car that routinely does 45mpg. __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

09-01-2005, 01:54 AM	#3 (permalink)
ryfo Psycho Location: melbourne australia	Hey, I live in Austra;ia amd I am paying around 1.27 litre, what does this equate to in $/gallon? We have bbeen told it probably go up to $1.35/L cos of Katrina sending oil prices up

09-01-2005, 02:06 AM	#5 (permalink)
ryfo Psycho Location: melbourne australia	hey, it seems that other countries just sneeze and we pay more for something, anyway the govenment heaps tax on the price and wont change it

09-01-2005, 04:07 AM	#10 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	how many times can a person say Google it if you don't believe me...geez I paid 3.19 this morning, one gas station had it for 2.99 but you couldnt get into the parking lot (at friggin 6 am) __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

09-01-2005, 04:17 AM	#11 (permalink)
madcow Crazy Location: The state of denial	Cshine, you are leaving out so much information about the fair tax plan that it's not even funny. Regardless if whether the proposed tax rate is 23% or 30%, the main idea of the fair tax plan is to eliminate all federal taxes (including income tax) and instead have a national sales tax. People also get reembursed for the taxes they pay up to the poverty line, so essentials that people buy will in essence not be taxed. The whole idea is people pay for what the consume. Also, everyone pays taxes including illegal immigrants getting paid under the table because they taxes are taken out at the merchant level not the employer level. I think it's an idea worth investigating further. __________________ Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast.

09-01-2005, 04:32 AM	#12 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	Now is the time to buy stock in alternative energy companies - LPG, hydrogen fuel cell and electric/hybrid engines are all available right now - the price of gas is never going to go down, because it's a limited resource - as it becomes more expensive to produce, prices will go up, and as prices go up, tensions will increase in oil producing countries, those tensions will occasionally erupt in violence, cutting supply, raising prices even higher and so on. So if you think it's bad now, just wait another 5 years...

09-01-2005, 04:43 AM	#13 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	Im so for the fair tax.....I'd gladly pay a national sales tax knowing EVERYBODY had to pay. Boortz and Linders book makes a lot of sense. __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

09-01-2005, 05:39 AM	#14 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Just a couple ponderances and opinion on the issue: Is this not what we get for electing an oilman for president (regardless of party)? More taxes on gas would just add to the problems, we are not pursuing any alternative fuels, the taxes would hurt more than they help, and you are punishing those who, like I, have to actually drive a distance to work and school. Could this not be our supposed allies in OPEC saying "oh and while you are in Iraq..... we're going to fucking bankrupt your asses."? How soon until inflation starts beating on the door wanting in? Aren't Congress and the President proud of themselves now that a gallon of gas almost is equal to minimum wage and what temp services pay? How come oil companies show grotesque profits if we are just paying "market price"? How come the independants and the small gas guys are struggling as these huge companies make more profit than almost all other industries (except healthcare) combined? Before inflation rears it's ugly head why can't we just do what Hawaii tried to do in a national scenario..... call gas a public utility and freeze prices? If we freeze prices, don't ya think the price on a barrel will actually fall? How soon do you think it will be before we see people truly losing everything? Inflation is coming hard, wages aren't going up, and natural gas/heating oil for houses is going to hit all time highs also causing electric and heating this winter to pretty much bankrupt us. And if that doesn't when everyone has to raise prices on goods to compensate for the outrageous prices...... we'll see immense raise in prices and wages that won't buy shit. Our economy is based on our purchasing power and when we can't purchase, things will close, jobs lost, tax revenue lost and we'll be done. Something has to be done to correct the problem and fast. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

09-01-2005, 10:18 AM	#16 (permalink)
alansmithee Junkie	Why is the "fair tax" even an issue any more? It's only the most regressive, stupid, nonsensical tax scheme ever. Seriously, all it does is punish people who make less and decrease tax revenue severely, at the same time giving corporations a big profit boost. There is no way you can make that not true using the fair tax scheme. Anyone who is advocating this plan has no understanding of economy whatsoever.

09-01-2005, 02:28 PM	#18 (permalink)
Dyze Crazy	Daniel, you have a point there but you don´t see the whole picture. 7 refineries in the Gulf are out or order. People in the US still demand gas and fill their tanks constantly up. The fear is a gas shortage or overnight price increase. So the US buys gas on the world market to supply the nation which leads to a shortage for the rest of the world. Ergo, gas prices everywhere go up. Same happened with the Chinese buying steel. __________________ Knowing is not enough, we must apply. Willing is not enough, we must do.

09-02-2005, 01:51 AM	#19 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	Erm - Dyze. a) It's not my point, I was repeating a comment made on the BBC. b) I said exactly the same as you tried to tell me I ought to have said. __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

09-02-2005, 01:53 AM	#20 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	The place that you're wrong is that "the US" doesn't buy gas. The oli companies (who are global - we all use the same ones) decide to sell their fuel in te way that makes them the most money. It's the free market for you. Remind me again how a free market gives everyone the lowest prices? __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

09-03-2005, 03:55 PM	#27 (permalink)
AngelicVampire Insane	depends on the cost of living there, what is R5.50 in your country? £1/litre here is roughly 1/4 of minimum wage per litre (so a person on minimum wage can basically buy a gallon of fuel an hour), our average wage iirc is around £16,000 a year (currently ~$29,450). How does this compare to the US/South Africa (cost of living is all important within a country, paying people 10cents a day when a good wage is 8cents a day is good, paying people 10cents a day when they need 15 to live is generally bad...)