politicophile

In another thread on this board, Yakk made the previous comment. I happen to disagree with it, but that is not the issue I wish to discuss here.

Let's assume that Yakk in entirely correct and that Pat Robertson is, in fact, more dangerous than Osama bin Laden. Now, I am generally against assassination as a concept: I feel it is dishonorable and immoral in most circumstances. There are a few individuals, however, that should be/have been assassinated. On this list, I would put Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Osama bin Laden, and a few others.

Recall that we have already accepted Yakk's view that Pat Robertson is more dangerous than Osama bin Laden, that more people are threatened by his existence than Osama's. The good news is that Pat Robertson hasn't started the killing yet: there is still time to prevent all that death and destruction. We must assassinate Pat Robertson as soon as possible.

[/modest proposal]

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The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

Charlatan

Smart ass...


OK. From my view of things... there is no excuse for assassination. It is an evil action and the ends would only justify the means with hindsight.

One would not know in, say, 1928 that Hitler was going to be what he turned out to be. Killing him in 1943 would be an entirely different matter. If you follow me.

OBL doesn't need to be killed. He needs to be arrested. Besides, killing OBL isn't going to stop terrorism, is it?

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Marvelous Marv

I see your point, but as it was explained to me, we're better off with him dead. If he's only captured, there might be more kidnappings, accompanied by demands for him to be released or the kidnappees die.

So it's either kill him, or do nothing to him, IMO.

P.S. Killing him is unlikely to make matters worse, either. Also IMO.

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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

Charlatan

Killing him does two things:

1) It makes you a murderer, too. (I don't believe in the death penalty so it colours my response).
2) It makes him a martyr (not the one that gets all the Virgins... the kind that lives on to inspire his followers to greater retribution).

If you've been following what I've said elsewhere, I think he should be arrested and tried like the criminal he is. Execution is too good for him.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

pan6467

I believe Pat Robertson IS as dangerous or moreso than OBL, not as a "violent" source, such as OBL, but as more of a different destruction.

Both are supposed religious zealots,

both are supposedly looking to start a religious crusade, but in reality their war creates for them more power, money and control over their followers

both want the world to run as they individually want it to run,

both are more destructive to their respective religion, than they are to help it,

Both use severe scare tactics to control, while promising "their true believers" higher rewards in the afterlife

Robertson uses his position to further his political agendas

Robertson uses his followers to put forth HIS beliefs over the true teachings of Christ

Robertson uses his position to keep acquiring more wealth, threaten those he doesn't like with boycotts and uses his wealth to further HIS political agenda (which is not of the true teachings of Christ)

Robertson has before this incident been known to pray for the destruction and death of MEN (Clinton is a great example).... (how Christlike is that, where does Christ say to pray for the downfall of someone you dislike simply because you politically disagree with them)

Robertson uses his resources to spread hatred, bigotry, prejudice and overall negativity (again where does Christ say "use television to destroy a man").

I could continue......

Anyway, good sarcasm however in your post.

Why ANY true follower of Christ would support this man and his biased, prejudiced, hate filled views is beyond me.

And how any politician can truly support this man and his beliefs does so only because of the power robertson weilds, and if Robertson were to ever lose his power, the politicians that smile and stand next to him would be gone in a heartbeat.

God right now must be shaking his head, asking how his prophets of love and understanding can be used to promote such evil and hatred.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

politicophile

Seriously though, if you believe as I do that killing Osama bin Laden (in secret, if that would eliminate marytrdom) would be a good thing, and you agree with Yakk and pan6467 that Pat Robertson is more dangerous than Osama, then it seems like you should favor killing Pat Robertson.

When I say that we should kill Osama, I don't mean we should try and execute him: I mean we should kill him in secrecy and the cover up the killing so nobody finds out about it. This would save a great many lives in the long run, which is why it is justified. However, if Pat Robertson is really so dangerous, then we should do the same with him.

__________________
The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

jorgelito

Awesome post politicophile! This would make a great POLI SCI exam question: reminds me a bit of game theory.

There are so many directions you can go with this -

1. "Ends justifies the means" - implication: getting "rid" of Osama or Robertson would be a benefit to society, one way or another. Through clandestine actions, the US or presumably other Western power can minimize compromising their ideals without having to go through a "legal" process that can drag for years (think Bosnia, Saddam).

2. "By the Book" - if someone is deemed a threat or enemy of the state, then the US must follow proper procedure to bring that person to justice - otherwise, the US would be hypocritical, especially when calling out other countries' on similar actions.

Ok, I'm still recovering from surgery so the drugs are making e a bit groggy. I can't think of anymore to add, but hopefully you all understand what I'm saying.

Thanks....

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to the one that endures to the end."

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- My recruiter

Yakk

Personally, I'm in favour of putting Osama Bin Laden on trial for the crimes he has committed.

I'm also in favour of putting Pat Robertston on trial for the crimes he has committed.

I would not casually call for the political assasination of anyone.

One reason I won't casually call for political assasinations is that uttering death threats is a crime -- a felony in fact. =-)

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

filtherton

I would propose a fight to the death between OBL and PR whereby the last one standing get's a trip to one of those middle eastern interrogation facilities where america sends all the really stubborn terrorists.

kangaeru

What we need for Pat Robertson and OBL...is an old school ninja.

Black PJ wearing badass with cat claws, a katana, and the ability create illusions.

I think the group of anyone assassinated by one those would just shit their pants and quit right there.

I speak Japanese, let me know if anyone wants to travel to Fuji and find one of those dudes. You can pick up the tab, let me know, we'll make it happen.

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Dont be afraid to change who you are for what you could become

politicophile

Oh do tell. What crimes has our dear friend Pat committed?

__________________
The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

samcol

I think we need some Real Ultimate Power

A few friends and I actually did this as a campus prank one time. Good times.

MooseMan3000

Well, if I recall correctly, Pat Robertson is quite the proponent of assassination himself.

Side note - what the fuck? Is that even logic?

The problem I see with any sort of assassination is that it tends to be in a preemptive fashion. I was not a supporter of the war in Iraq for this reason among others. If you assassinate someone before they've actually commited crimes, it's not assassination - it's murder. As soon as he calls to action his minions, however, feel free to pop a cap in his ass.

I would also fervently support it if he were murdered on the street. So long as it isn't governent sanctioned, I'm all for preemptive violence.

Edit - I just found this great quote from Pat Robertson... "(T)he feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians"

AHAHAHAHAA! Why would anyone want to kill this guy? He's one of our nation's greatest comedians.

martinguerre

this whole thread is a total strawman.

move along...nothing to see here.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

vautrain

Totally correct on the martyr point. Killing him would immediately double or triple the number of al Qaeda recruits, IMO.

On point number one, a friend of mine on another forum said it best- you don't get to be a good in comparison to the actions of your enemy. You only get to be good through the merit of your own actions.

For example, Pat Robertson isn't good. It doesn't matter that he calls for the death of fewer people than OBL, calling for the death of anyone is wrong.

politicophile

A bit universal (and idealistic), don't you think? To use the most extreme example, would you have thought it wrong to call for Hitler's death in, say, 1942? If you think that would be wrong, well, you must not like Jews very much. Or Russians. Or... lives.

It takes a principled person to violate one's own principles.

__________________
The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

ObieX

If i had the choice between killing Hitler at any time or seeing him rot in a hole for the rest of his life i would pick the hole. Same goes for OBL. (and by hole i don't mean cave)

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We Must Dissent.

Charlatan

I don't think killing Hitler in 1942 would have accomplished enough. Someone else would have just stepped up to take the reigns. The machine was in motion.

The only reason his suicide accomplished the end was because the war had already been lost.



By the way, using your logic. Robertson should be taken out. I just don't ascribe to your logic.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

raveneye

I think the whole Pat Robertson debacle nicely demonstrates the fundamental flaw within conservative or evangelical Christianity: it is, at its root, a hubris-based Christianity rather than a humility-based Christianity.

By hubris I mean an inflexible, prideful, superior worldview, as opposed to a humble, awed, altruistic worldview that understand the fallibility of all people and respects us all as equals.

And I think Robertson's strutting self-aggrandizement is the epitome of what the U.S. is doing right now under Bush; both take the self as superior and godlike, worthy of deciding who lives and who dies for the interests of the United States of America.

Ironically, this worldview is really anti-American, or should be seen as such to any constructionist: the founders took the assumption that all people are flawed and fallible, and posited a system of equality and checks and balances to counter that fallibility. They were humility-based Christians.

The Greeks understood well that within hubris are the seeds of its own destruction....Not to get too dramatic, but in my opinion we will be paying for what we're doing in Iraq for a long time. And Pat Robertson assassinated himself LONG ago.

vautrain

I don't know, would you call Gandhi unprincipled?

alansmithee

Yes, the founders really did show much altruism, and respected the rights of all people equally. That's obviously why they started a war so they could pay less taxes. And look at how equally they treated blacks and women. Why, I think the founders should all be nominated for sainthood! [/sarcasm]

Honestly, you've failed to show where either Robertson or Bush has taken any of the behaviors you attribute to them. Although I'd give you an A+ for melodrama and hyperbole.

And as for this thread, what's the point? Yes, if you believe that assassination is fine for certain evil individuals, and you assume that OBL and Robertson are equally evil, you would choose to assassinate both. Where is the debate if you don't desire to argue either OBL and Robertson being equally bad or assassination being wrong?

tecoyah

Robertson does NOT represent Christianity.....any more than OBL represents the Muslim belief structure. To claim otherwise, and then debunk millions of people (on either front) is a sign of overreaction, and ignorance. As far as assasination, I am not in a possition to decide who deserves to Live and Die (thankfully), and so do not need to decide, but I can see times when it would become beneficial to do so.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Strange Famous

I know it's kind of pedantic... but it's Usama Bin Laden.. with a "U"

Anyway, in terms of assasination, it tend sto make people like this more powerful - because they becoem matryr's... I remember reading something that Bin Laden was reported to have said, which was basically "yes, America will kill me, I am only a man and America is a super power, so I will be destroyed... but when they kill me they will make 1000 Usama's...

For these people who preach hatrid and intolerance... the best counter measure to me argument... someone like Usama Bin Laden or Robertson is not powerful for things they will actually carry out, but rather the disillusioned and alienated who their message finds resonance on. The way to fight them is to remove the conditions that make them powerful, not to physically destroy them - because death just makes them stronger in terms of their message and their hate.

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

raveneye

OBL and Robertson I think represent subsets of their respective religions. How big and powerful those subsets are is a subject for debate.

Regardless, 9/11 showed that on the OBL side, it doesn't take many followers to have a profound impact on the history of the world. On the Robertson side, the U.S. is the richest and most powerful country in the world. It doesn't take many followers in leadership positions in the U.S. to have a major influence on the world stage.

Charlatan

http://www.cjk.org/cjk/arabic/araborth.htm

أسامة

The arabic name above can be romanized in the following ways, all of which are acceptable:Osama, Ossama, Usama, Ussama, 'Usama, Oussama, Ousamah, Ousamma, Oussamma

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Charlatan

By the way, I think Yakk's post in the other thread (quoted below) shows that Robertson does have influence, does use his power to create change (many would argue for the worse) in other nations. I guess the big difference is that Robertson's action took place in another country rather than the US.

I suppose Robertson's involvment with funding this particular coup isn't so bad because the US Administration at the time likely supported his actions (as I imagine many on this board from that side of the political spectrum would as well).

If I was a Guatamalan who followed politicalphile's I probably would probably see the upside of assassinating Robertson...



[QUOTE]http://www.holysmoke.org/wb/wb0239.htm

Pat doesn't just talk. He acts.


Political policy in the middle east, inspired by scripture!

What kind of people does Pat have influence over? He's a massive fund-raiser and volunteer-raiser for the Republican party. Obviously he has no influence with the government...



[Quote] http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/r.../pat-robertson/
In appreciation, the guerrillas named one of their units the Pat Robertson Brigade.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

irateplatypus

if bin laden's death causes another 1000 to join the islamofascist cause... then i would consider that a good trade.

numbers we can deal with, we kill a thousand jihadists a month... plus change. however, multi-billionaires with entrenched influence in the saudi government who also possess charisma and enough determination to spend a life in a cave while suffering from possible kidney failure... those are a rare breed.

kill the bastard, keep killing his followers and would-be replacements. meanwhile, work towards giving the people of the middle east hope and an alternative to dictatorships and totalitarian islamic states through tough foreign policy directed towards those who foment hate... including use of force when all else fails. it's the only way to achieve a long-standing solution.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Stompy

If you wipe out Robertson, then another idiot will simply take his place.

Then you'd have to kill him too.

So on and so on... although it might not exactly be a bad idea, it won't happen.

Funny thread

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Willravel

Pat should be put in a room with Tom Cruze. Trying to use religion as a platform of forcing ignorance upon people is wrong. Whether it's Tom on Goodmorning America shoveling shit right into the camera, or Pat, A CHRISTIAN RELIGIOUS LEADER, saying it's time to KILL someone; this needs to stop. I beg anyone who reads this: Ignore the stupid people and listen to the smart people. You're more likely to make an informed decision.

Charlatan

Sadly, I think that ship sailed a long time ago...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Yakk

Remember folks, there is nothing going on here. The US government could never be convinced to topple democratically elected governments using underhanded or illegal methods, because the American people would not stand for it.

And the founder of the largest and most active right-wing christian grass-roots movement in America is not someone with any influence. I mean, if he had provided millions of dollars to an insurgent force in another nation, one might be worried about what kind of things he was up to. But he's an American Christain Republican, so he must be a good guy. You can always tell by the colour of his hat.

And no, I will not call for his assasination. Extradition and prosecution, yes. Assasination, no.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Elphaba

Nicely done, Yakk.

One of my ubber liberal journalists stated today that Robertson has called for the impeachment of the president because he has failed to close the border with Mexico. I've been looking for a neutral source, but I wouldn't put it past this egomaniac to pull a stunt like that.

pan6467

All I can say is.... we can't really assassinate him, my aunt works for him (director of the animation department or something along those lines). She previously had worked for Hanna and Barbera, but found Jesus and took a job with the old CBN in Va. Beach, and worked her way up.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

MSD

While you're at it, why hasn't anyone answered this question yet?

Charlatan

While supplying funds to "freedom fighters" (some 7 million dollars to the contras) may not be illegal in the US (or was it, I can't remember... or right if Reagan could do it it couldn't have been that illegal) it was probably not considered "legal" by the government at the time.

Not being familiar with the laws of Nicaragua at the time I can't say for certain.

I would also think that, although it's a technicality, uttering a death threat at the President of Venezuela is probably illegal in Venezuela (much as it is in the US).

Of course, I don't see the US extraditing him for these "crimes" anytime soon.


To my mind... the big issue here is:

a) calling for the death of someone is no way for a Christian leader to behave
b) Robertson *does* have influence over a significant number of people and does have influence over the political fortunes of other nations through financially supporting organizations like the Contras or governments that share his economic point of view.

These aren't neccessarily illegal actions they are just proof that RObertson is a bit of an ass and does have political influence.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke