politicophile

Note to moderators and others: This thread is not a rehash of all the previous threads on affirmative action. I have a clear and defined subpoint that I am pursuing here that is different from the run-of-the-mill affirmative action debate.


There are, to my knowledge, two justifications used by advocates of racial preference programs like affirmative action:
1: The programs seek to rectify past discrimination.
2: The programs seek to increase "diversity."

We are concerned here with the second point. The word "diversity" is a holy word on most college campuses these days, but, in my experience, it is not very effectively defined. It usually seems to mean "taking people of different ethnicities and putting them in the same environment."

Here is the question, then: is the goal of increasing diversity, whatever you take that to mean, sufficient justification in and of itself to racially discriminate against members of dominant racial categories in college admmissions, job hiring, government contracts, etc?

If you think this question is purely hypothetical, consider than many of the black students at the college I attend are from Africa or otherwise outside the United States. Yet, it seems pretty clear that black people within the United States have been more severely discriminated against by white Americans than have black people in Africa...

Just something to think about.

__________________
The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

martinguerre

i think the silent word in all this is priviledge.

does participation in whiteness confer on certain individuals higher access to opportunities, networking, education, wealth, etc.?

If that's true, and i certainly think it is, then to do nothing is to continue the operation of white privilege, and to continue to disadvantage members of non-white groups.

is affirmative action, as currently deployed, that solution? I'm not sure. but i tend to think it's better than nothing.

you mention international diversity vs. domestic diversity, and you do raise a good point. the school i just graduated from has a strong record of internationalism, but has had to make cuts in forigien student grants in order to beef up aid to domestic students of color. we're finally getting a better atmosphere for those students, so that they don't feel quite so much like tokens, and particpate as valued members of the community. to add to that, this didn't happen just by throwing people in the pot. groups for white students to explore their idenity and position as white were key in producing these results. first time i heard the term "white idenity collective" i had visions of neo-nazis. in reality, it was a strong group working to hash out questions of what it mean to be white, and how white idenity can either contribute or work to dismantle institutional racism.

metaphorically, melting pots rarely get hot enough to melt people without first burning them...it takes more work than throwing people together to produce a diverse community.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

j8ear

There is NO JUSTIFICATION for discrimination. Not even the made up ones that the left likes to peddle.

Affirmative action schemes are a complete failure.

They have improved nothing for any one.

They have righted no wrongs.

They have not increased diversity.

None of these facts will ever change.

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

Elphaba

Excellent topic, Politico, and Martinquerre made some very interesting observations. I have personally benefited from affirmative action policies in the work place, so obviously I disagree with Bear's statements.

My college experiences differed greatly, but I don't claim any knowledge about the diversity policies the universities may have had. UC Berkeley was a highly diverse campus and it was a very energizing climate. University of North Texas was almost entirely white, Wonder Bread bland. My preference should be obvious.

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

j8ear

What's obvious about it?

Can you please explain in more detail how you 'benefitted' from discrimination?

Thanks,

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

filtherton

Do you have any evidence to back up the claim that AA has improved nothing for anyone? How about for not increasing diversity?

Elphaba

Fair question, Bear.

Back when the Earth was still cooling, I worked for the Big Airplane Company, an all male bastion supported by "girls." Uncle Sam decided that any company on the federal teat needed to live up to the EEOC act. When my male boss in Accounting was sent packing, I was appointed the job. It was an easy pick, because I was qualified for the position, but Big Airplane Company had a more important goal in getting their numbers right to keep it's federal contracts. Everybody won.

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

boatin

I'm not sure if this takes us down a well traveled road, I'm guessing it does.

I've benefitted from discrimination all my life. As a 6' 2" white male, I get the positives (see: Blink, by Malcolm Gladwell, the chapter on the "warren harding error"), and I get the absence of the negatives (at airports, driving, walking downtown, etc).

Of the two, the abscence of negatives is probably better for my day to day life. The positives are better for my long term success.

boatin

cept the dude that was sent packing, I'm guessing


Having said that, I have no real issue with this. Unfair shit happens in life. As a recipient of the positive side of that unfairness, more often than not, I have no issue when the other side bites my ass.

No one gets to skate, methink.

Elphaba

[QUOTE=boatin]cept the dude that was sent packing, I'm guessing /QUOTE]

He had a little problem with keeping his hands off the wimmin folk. That was beginning to be looked down upon, too.

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

j8ear

It sounds to me instead like you were the more qualified individual for the position and that YOU DID NOT benefit from discrimination. Instead your employer got to satifiy the government mandated quotas, usually adhered to by discriminating, without doing so...and got not only a qualified butt in the seat, but the most qualified butt.

That is indeed a win win.

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

j8ear

It's just a hunch really that two wrongs don't make a right and that discrimination to address discrimination is ineffective.

You have any stats that show otherwise?

I'm not that keen on digging anything up...I know what I've read and you know also know what I've read. I suppose if shown something to the contrary of what I've posted, I might be inclined to refute it.

As far as diversity is concerned...we've all seen it. Sure there are more of the various groups on campus and in the work place...but they don't intermix all that much. Just like in the real world without government sanctioned and mandated discrimination.

Don't get me wrong, I'm for intergration, and I'm in favor of helping overcome the obstacles to success, like discrimination, racism, and sexism...however, it could be just me...'programs' which are nothing more then discrimination, racism, and sexism just ain't going to cut it.

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

martinguerre

jbear...it's called institutional inertia. once a system is headed in a direction (white priviledge or the good old boys network) it requires some energy to turn around.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Mantus

I agree with this. You have to give it a push to get it rolling.

filtherton

I didn't make any assertions, i'm not obligated to back up claims that i didn't make. I seem to remember you referring to your assertions as facts that will never change. That's a far cry from a hunch. While you're certainly welcome to your opinion, don't you think it is just a tad bit disingenuous to attempt to pass it off as having an immutable factual basis?

I find that most people are all in favor of helping overcome discrimination, racism and sexism, provided they never actually have to lift a finger to do so. It's just a convenient, empty sentiment.

As it stands, AA does help people overcome discrimination. As someone who i've seen call for "fighting fire with fire" when it comes to terrorism, i don't know how you can't understand the potential effectiveness of fighting discrimination with discrimination.

j8ear

Interesting points.

I agree whole heartedly about intentions and lifting fingers. Affirmative Action, is just that, NOT LIFTING a finger. A hollow gesture that perpetuates discrimination. It is an appeasement that solves nothing, provides no advantage for anyone, and in my opinion pollutes rational thinking. Eliminating discrimintation by discriminating? Am I out in left field here?

Helping someone overcome discrimination by discriminating against someone else...is a zero sum game!

You've seen me call for 'fighting fire with fire' when it comes to terrorism? Are you sure about that?

Remember I am disliked for my anarchist tendencies, but am quite an enigma with my frequent libertarian philosophy.

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

martinguerre

i'm simply puzzled by your rhetoric here, jbear. i think you need to explain more about why you're drawing your conclusions here. you have made a series of assertions, but have neither pointed to research, experience or explained reasoning as to why you do so. i just don't know that i have enough information to go on to respond effectively. i could assume that you have similar reasoning to other AA detractors, but i don't think that's productive.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

j8ear

I'm not surprised by your use of the term 'rhetoric.'

None the less, Feel free to hold firm to the fantasy that using discrimination to solve a discrimination problem might some how magically become effective. Also, it sounds like an effective strategy to blame some notion of 'priveledge' that exists with white folk, and to believe that an 'old boys network' is keeping people down. I suspect you'll eventually be disappointed and find someone to blame, but that's your perogative and I'm in no position to try and persuade you otherwise.

I'm going to direct you to a black gentlemen named Walter Williams. He is a PHD and eloquent editorialist about issue effecting his community:

Many of his musings can be found here:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/w.../archive.shtml

Check out what he has to say. I doubt you will be swayed but try to keep an open mind.

Here are the titles of some of Dr Williams thoughts:

July 20, 2005 Slavery reparations
July 13, 2005 Aid to Africa
July 6, 2005 Dependency on government
June 29, 2005 Confiscating property
June 22, 2005 Do we want this?
June 15, 2005 Click it or ticket
June 8, 2005 Victimhood: Rhetoric or reality?
June 1, 2005 Destroying effective policing
May 25, 2005 Our trade deficit
May 18, 2005 Ripping off the system
May 11, 2005 How not to be poor
May 4, 2005 Only in America
April 27, 2005 The productive vs. the unproductive

Thought provoking aren't they?

I'd love to hear what you think.

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

X_FireGuy

Having been the victim of reverse discrimination, I agree with you 100%. AA is a sham and an impediment to equal opportunity. On my city FireFighter job, minorities shunned studying for promotional exams, boasting that they were "guaranteed" positions regardless of score. Even after hiring a black test writer, who designed a bias-free test, minorities scored poorly. The head of our Civil Service stated ,"we guaranteed a fair test...we cant guarantee results".

__________________
John

djtestudo

The problem with AA in my mind is that, if the point is to eliminate discrimination, then using another form of discrimination to acheive that goal is hypocrisy. All it does is get those being passed over angry at the ones being given the positions, and fosters more hate then otherwise would be natural.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

martinguerre

jbear...rhetoric wasn't an insult. i could have said argument, logic, statement, or any other noun to indicate the words and thoughts you were conveying.

i'll read some of that, but you are link spamming. you could at least do us the favor of summarizing what you find most important about this gentleman's thesis.

i would resist the notion that white privilege is magical or etherial. As a white person, i notice it quite often. I'm treated differently in stores, i grew up in a setting where most people looked like me, people expect me to do well in school and to identify with academic and economic success. people don't randomly ask me if they can score some drugs. i don't get attention from police simply for being there. i know people who are professionally sucessful in their field, and we share an idenitified ethnicity.

i know i'm privileged. and i don't think these are perks just some folks should have. i think that they're crucial components to giving people the opportunity to be successful.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

alansmithee

What I want to know is what people want to replace AA with? Everytime I see someone talk about eliminating it, I never see any suggestions to replace it. Seriously, white people, you won already. Alot of people died for equal rights, and in the '60's it seemed like victory was close, but it was an illusion and the whiteocracy is as well as it's ever been. Will people not be happy until blacks are back on plantations? Its not like AA has been that great of a boon as it is. But the fact that a black person might get something for their race outside of a traffic stop seems to send whites into a frenzy. I think if reparations were ever instituted, lynching would come back into fashion almost immediately after.

politicophile

(Emphasis added)

Nobody is talking about putting black people back on plantations, so let's stop resorting to straw man arguments. In addition, the use of overbroad racial stereotypes, such as the use of the word "whites", which I bolded, is totally inappropriate. You know very well that your statement is untrue.

What do I propose in place of Affirmative Action? Nothing. Admitting underqualified minority candidates to colleges and universities isn't helping anyone. Rich people are over-represented at colleges. Women are over-represented at colleges, etc. - this does not mean that we should continue imposing discriminatory programs until every school is precisely demographically representative of the nation as a whole. The entire concept of Affirmative Action is lunacy: the program has no clear goals, no way to tell if it has succeeded. There is no "termination point" at which we will know that affirmative action is no longer needed.

I am looking for a concession from those who support affirmative action: admit that the program is definitionally racially discriminatory. Even if you think that the good results justify the bad means, I want you to admit that, yes, Affirmative Action is a form of reverse racism.

I am also looking for a return to the original question I posed in this thread, which is related to a specific part of the affirmative action debate: diversity.

__________________
The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

roachboy

1. where does the idea come from that anyone who benefits from aa is necessarily less qualified than a white guy? on what basis do the claims above regarding "reverse discrimination" operate? please do not simply repeat the claims--provide some proof.

2. on what basis, really, can you seperate aa from the history it was constructed to redress?

3. do you really believe that the united states is somehow not still a deeply racist country? on what basis? again, the claim in itself is meaningless--if you are trying to persuade folk who do not accept your politics up front that your argument is interesting or important, then you need to address the kind of questions that others consider when they think about this question. you do not control the frame of reference. you simply make an argument.

4. it seems to me that alansmithee posed an important question that politico in no way addressed...unless you really believe that there is no racial or class discrimination in the united states, the question of what you would replace aa with is critical. you cant duck it by trying to switch the terms of debate. answer the question: give your assumptions.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ubertuber

Politicophile,

I think you've got the cart before the horse. If you want to discuss this, you should be looking at the racial preferences approach to diversity instead of the diveresity approach to racial preferences. Diversity is the end, preferences are the means. The way you've framed this suggests the opposite which, I believe, is an unfair characterization of the AA crowd's motives.

I think this confusion of ends with means leads to your feelings about the meaning of diversity - "taking people of different ethnicities and putting them in the same environment." There isn't necessarily more to it than this, although the purpose is to find students of different cultural and experiential backgrounds, not just varied skin tones. All of the "quotas" (which aren't allowed) and preferences and whatnot are to serve this end, not the other way around. And incidentally, in the case of educational environments, it is thought that the benefit of having a critical mass (not just a jew token students) of different populations benefits everyone, including the majority students, because it provides a larger base of perspectives and views in the classroom and in social development. If you want to question something, you should question whether broader perspective should automatically be seen as a higher quality educational experience. I think it should, but would like to hear if you've got strong arguments against this idea.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

politicophile

1. If the minority was better-qualified than the white person, then affirmative action would not be needed for that minority. Definitionally, affirmative action is not a program in which the best qualified candidate is chosen. Obviously, you will run across cases where the two candidates are exactly equally qualified, in which case the best candidate would be chosen despite affirmative action. What should not be overlooked, however, is that there would be no need for affirmative action if members of other races where competitive with white and asian people.

2. I don't think you can seperate those two things. My question for you is this: is the best way to redress having had your distant ancestors inslaved and your more recent ancestors lynched, disproportionately jailed, pulled over, treated poorly in restaraunts and stores, etc. - to (effectively, even after Michigan) to add some points onto your college application to increase your odds of being accepted? This looks like a serious case of apples and oranges from my perspective. Is higher ed. really the place to redress these widespread social injustices? It isn't the place for minorities who never even apply to college...

3. The United States is still a deeply racist country, although the situation continues to improve.

4. I guess that I would have to know the purpose of affirmative action before I could possibly offer a substitute program that would accomplish the same goals. Can someone explain to me, please, what the specific goal(s) of affirmative action is/are? And I don't mean "increased minority enrollment in colleges". I want a deeper answer.

__________________
The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

roachboy

i'll just respond with numbers--am pressed for time at the moment....
1. so you think that there is some natural racial hierarchy, then? on what possible basis?

2. higher education is not the only space impacted on by aa. within that, i think ubertuber's post poses questions that you should take up.

i dont see what you imagien yourself accomplishing by trying to reduce the history that informed the development of aa to a question of individual inherited guilt. it seems a non sequitor.
do you know the history of the u.s. since the civil war?
do you know, within that, the history of the reconstruction period?

3. fine--but if you concede that point, then is your position that nothing can or should be done to address it?

4. i think this one is simply disengenuous. you know full well what the purpose of aa legislation was and is--you have thought about the questions that the right at least imagines important about the matter--so.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Charlatan

In my mind, AA is doing its best work when this sort of situation occurs. When a white person and a minority ( a person of colour, a woman, etc.) are up for the same position and are, for all intents and purposes, equally qualified for the position.

Historically, the white guy is the one who gets the job. AA seeks to rectify this and hopefully, create a different norm. Is it succeeding, depends on your definition of success.

I am not sure how I feel about the case where the qualifications are NOT equal.

In the end, I am not sure if this will show "results" or not. I think the results of programs like AA are to be seen, if at all, in the distant future.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Lebell

I am not saying this to be difficult, but how again is discriminating against white men rectifying past discrimination?

By this logic, white people in America ought to be enslaved for a couple of hundred years to "even things out", but I seriously doubt you would support such a measure.

Based on what else you wrote in the thread, I would think you would support a colorblind process where sex and race are complete non-issues in the hiring process.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

politicophile

1. I don't think there is some sort of racial hierarchy. I do think, however, that due to economic factors, conditions in the inner cities, bad school quality, and a host of other terrible things, the average black high school graduate is not as good a college candidate as the average white high school graduate. In fact, I think that believing this makes it much easier for one to support affirmative action programs in the first place.

2. I am well aware of American History, but thank you for verifying that the public school system hadn't failed me.

3. My position is not that nothing can or should be done: my position is that I don't know what can or should be done. I do know, however, that affirmative action is not doing the job. I am unable to suggest a better alternative, although doing nothing would be preferable to continuing on our current course.

4. Nope. Nothing disengenuous about it. I am honestly asking you what the purpose of affirmative action is and how we will know when we have acheived that goal and affirmative action will no longer be necessary. I do not know the answer to these questions.

One final point: I would appreciate it if you would refrain from labeling me as "the right". I am not representing the views of anyone but myself here and prefer not to be shoved into some kind of large category that encompasses half of the political spectrum. Political life is far more complicated than "left" and "right".

__________________
The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

filtherton

It's not rectifying past discrimination. I suppose it attempts to counteract current discrimination. Of course aa isn't going to end discrimination, neither will ending aa. Ending discrimination is a completely separate issue from affirmative action.

I've said it before and i'll say it again. The funny thing about white people arguing against aa on discrimination grounds is that most of them could care less if they themselves are benefiting from discrimination. I bet if any of the most ardent opponents of aa spent half the time they usually spend sulking and spent it actually attempting to recognize and confront all the many ways in which they benefit from discrimination every day they could put a huge dent in the level of discrimination in society. It is unfortunate that most of them only abhor discrimination as long as they aren't its beneficiaries.

Charlatan

What I said was: I do prefer a colour blind process. If hiring committees were blind to colour (gender, disabilities, etc.) I wouldn't have a problem.

The issue is that, by and large, when people with equal stats apply for the same job, the vast majority of times it turns out that the white guy gets the job. This isn't because he is the most qualified. It just happens.

I've done a lot of hiring in the past and I have found that it is rare that any one candidate's qualifications stand out over the rest. It is usually other factors that result in the hiring. I usually went on a gut feeling in the end rather than solely what was on the resume.

I think AA, in the case I am describing above, provides a nudge to those who would hire the white guy because it's in their comfort zone (whether they are aware of this comfort zone or not).

I hope that's clearer than mud...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Ustwo

Affirmative Action - Creating racial tention and lowered expectations since 1965.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Ustwo

In the medical field, AA has caused vastly inferior students to graduate as doctors. We are not talking slightly inferior, we are talking separate bell curves. I have seen this first hand on MANY occasions. As such I will not go to a minority doctor (unless they are Asian) that I do not know personally. This makes me quite angry for two reasons. The first being, the public does not deserve lower quality health care to make someone feel good, and the second being that well qualified minority doctors get lumped in with the AA crowd and its not fair to them.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Rekna

I'm not a fan of AA it doesn't really solve the problem. It is like treating a disease by providing medice for the symptoms while ignoring the disease.

AA is easily abused and for some people is becoming a cruch. How is encuraging people to slack off going to help them?

Charlatan

Fair enough... any idea how to treat the disease?

I'd love to hear some suggestions from anyone.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Rekna

well first off the change has to start within the communities. We have a mentality being propigated through the generations that it is cool to be stupid, it is cool to be waistfull, it is cool to be a gang banger. This is not acceptable, listen to any rap music and see what they are glorifying in those songs. "Where your treasure is, there to your heart will be". These people treasure the wrong values. I admire people like Bill Cosby who are standing up to a large group that is keeping the minorties down.... themselfs. I'm not saying that "white" people don't help keep them down but what I am saying is we are doing nothing to stop the minorities from keeping themselfs down.

We need to change their perspective, through education when they are young and most impressionable. We cannot simply give them a crutch and say walk with it. No we need to refuse to give them that crutch and get them to stand themselfs up. You can't help someone that doesn't want help.

If you want to know where I think the money we throw at AA should be placed I think it needs to be placed in the inner city schools and in programs directed at both parents and childern. We need to stop glorifying gang banging, violence, and drug abuse. We need to protect the childern.

sprocket

Wow what a good thread. It has gone slightly off topic but I think the question posed by the thread starter is an important one. Diversity is such a buzzword these days. Its fast approaching the same status as the phrase "for our children". So overused, any meaning this word had, has become diluted. This word, like the phrase "for our children" gets repeated like a mantra whenever a politician wants to inject the appearance of some nobility into whatever self-serving schemes they are trumpeting. Its a great slogan, and great marketing for any legislation you attatch it too. Not much else. Im sure there are other good reasons for diversity in your enviroment besides greater exposure to foreign cuisine, but I have a hard time figuring out what exactly those reasons are that would justify the laws we pass to accomplish it.

If anyone has a hard time figuring out why affirmative action is wrong.. just ask yourself why we dont apply the same policy towards other criminal acts. What makes race/sex discrimination so special, that its the one crime where someones guilt is automatically presumed, instead of innocence? Mabye we should follow affirmative action to its logical conclusion, and punish any supervisor that must consider two equally qualified candidates of different races/sexes with jail time, fines, community service, and of course, compulsory diversity re-education classes before a hiring decision is ever made.

__________________
Remember, wherever you go... there you are.

roachboy

if oppurtunities are accessed largely via education and education is unevenly distributed, then why would it not make sense to address that uneven distribution? school funding should not be controlled at the local level--it should be distributed equally across all communities by the state.
without something like that, there is no plausible "level playing field" argument to be made.
without some kind of "level playing field"--at least in terms of educational opportunities---the idea of eliminating one of the few legal attempts to address anything about systematic racial and economic discrimination seems a poor one.

aa addresses effects without addressing causes.
i think it was a weak compromise that at once addressed the history of the treatment of african-americans but as it did so effectively split that treatment away from the question of class--which that history of discrimination is tightly intertwined with.
class stratification remains the great unaddressed problem in the states.
no-one--least of all the right--wants to address it.

specific proposal--maybe undertake a national-scale rethinking of how education is funded--keep aa in place while the "level playing field" becomes something that could plausibly be seen as real, and once that begins to happen, consider the question democratically of whether aa is or is not still required.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Ustwo

Link to school funding here


Funding has almost nothing to do with it, you can't solve this one by throwing other peoples money at it. Its about the parents and the culture.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.