zen_tom

moosenose, fundamentalist anything is pretty much hard to deal with. I wont give examples. Have you asked yourself what makes such extreme beliefs attractive to someone? What would it take to get you to believe in some kind of fundamentalist dogma? And what would it take to get you to kill and/or die for those beliefs?

moosenose

I AM a fundamentalist. I believe in the fundamental separation of Church and State. I believe in our fundamentally inherent civil liberties. There are a lot of other things which I believe in that are fundamental bedrock principles of liberty.

When I took the Oath to protect and defend the Constitution, I took it seriously. And people who are talking about overthrowing the US government, or who are adhering to our enemies, be they foreign or domestic, are my enemies. I've never had to die for those beliefs, but I have run the risk of being killed for them.

Pacifier

even in WW2 not every waepon possible, every dirty trick possible was used because of the consequenses and the escalation that would have followed.

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"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

stevo

what wasn't used?

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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

Pacifier

gas, just for example.
in africa ("war without hate") there were cease fires to rescue injured (something that wasn't possible at the eastern front cause the war there had reached the "next escalation level")

additionally, i mentioned it for them umptenth time now, amerca claims to have the moral high ground therefore you should act accordingly. playing nice may not kill terrorists, but it may prevent people from becoming more aggresive. if america acts like a total asshole it surely will affect the view other (currently peaceful) people have towards the US.

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

martinguerre

i was illegal here too for a long time. The West has a long history of homophobia, and homophobic violence. No matter where i am, it's still a game of lesser evils.

i'm quite serious about the human rights violations committed in these other nations, including homophobic violence. but that doesn't mean i'm in any way willing to condone human rights violations in the struggle against other evils. note that much of the abuse reported at abu gharib contained homophobic elements-men forced to masturbate in front of other men, or ritualized de-masculinization. I'm hardly willing to lower my standards for US forces holding prisoners in detention to allow that, just that i can live in a nation where i don't have to be closeted.

Again, you've Godwin'd this thing to death. oddly, making a point for me. in 1936, america was not a particularly tolerant nation of the Jewish people. "Judeo-Christian" had not yet been invented. They were still subject to ethnic discrimination..and worse, our nation (along with the rest of the world) refused to take ayslees coming from Germany, because we didn't want more Jews. 1936 was an indictment on a great many peoples and nations. Finding the evil in one does not expurge the evil in others.

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-John 3:16

Ustwo

We tortured German prisoners in WW2.

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maximusveritas

I admit that this would be news to me. I don't doubt that a few isolated incidents might have taken place, but you seem to be saying that this was widespread and condoned. What sources did you find this information from?

zen_tom

Whether things like that happened during WWII, the circumstances were different and it fails to justify actions taken right now:
a) It was a far more intense conflict between nation states (i.e. a war) where the opposing sides posed a real threat to one another
b) it was 60 years ago
c) crimes of the past do not justify crimes of today.

stevo

So lets commit the crimes today and then in the future we can just say that was in the past and it doesn't justify anything.

Its really not that hard.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

Ustwo

Due to the amount of 'noise' on the issue (there are many claims of US/British torture of German POW's that seem very far fetched) I can't give you a link I would trust on this. I am going by memory of past research I did on the subject for a paper I wrote quite a while ago. The torture consisted of mostly sleep deprivation, denial of medical care (the case I recall was a German POW was refused an appendectomy operation until he talked), and other, more vague psychological torture. This was in a facility in the west coast of the US, and was obviously very top secret as Germany was relatively benign to US/British prisoners and we wanted to give no excuse to change this treatment.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

powerclown

Now that is a hell of a thought.

Imagine if Ted Kennedy, George Galloway or CNN were around back then to "commentate" on the war.
It'd be the United States of the Third Reich.

Mephisto2

This is something I don't believe. I've never heard of the US using torture during WWII.

Mr Mephisto

moosenose

We sure as hell committed war crimes during WWII...Read Keegan's "Six Armies in Normandy". He tells of a US paratrooper who machinegunned a bunch of unarmed germans at the breakfast table. The man in question couldn't be prosecuted, because he died shortly afterwards. Or, you could read up on those Germans who got hung in an elevator shaft in the US (at Leavenworth, IIRC). SCOTUS upheld their executions....well AFTER the fact. Or, you could read up on the US ship full of mustard gas that sank in the harbor of Anzio, IIRC... Or you could read up on the firebombing of Dresden, and the deaths of an estimated 250,000 non-military refugees there. They had an actual body count of something like 100,000 dead refugees, but in the city center, the bodies were literally incinerated in the firestorm that developed, so they could not be counted.

Mean shit happens in war. Trying to fight a war by hugging your enemy is a good way to LOSE the war.

Ustwo

My guess is there are many things you never heard of which are true.

You don't win a war by planting flowers.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Pacifier

Thats exactly the point why you shouldn't go up the "escalation ladder". Would the Nazis have known about the torture it would have been an excuse to put western POWs into KZs.
The terrorists surely dont treat our prisoners fair, but if we do the same we go up one escalation level, giving them an excuse to use even more "dirty tricks". Additionally the conflict becomes more emotional (compare the war agaisnt the western allies and the war again russia) thus making it difficult to come to an peaceful end. I know some of only want to stop when every arab nation is a parking lot, but I'm an optimist. I belive that a peaceful solution, of cource not with Osama, but with the majority of the insurgents, for example, or the "us-haters" in other nations (Saudi Arabia), is possible.

is there nothing between "torture" and "planting flowers"? is your world really that simple?

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

Charlatan

More Americans are dying of the flu and heart disease than have died from Terrorist attacks... let's get some perspective.

Fighting fire with fire *never* solves the problem. It either a) escalates the conflict or b) puts the conflict off for another day.


The only way terrorism is going to be defeated is if the terrorists have no reason to attack us (in other words there will probably always be terrorism). A war on terrorism is like a war on drugs... it cannot be won because there is noone to fight.

Sure you can stick your finger in the proverbial dyke and increase security at home but that is relatively ineffective. There is always another crack and we only have so many fingers.

__________________
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stevo

What escalation could the terrorists achieve, where could they go? They already cut off our heads and bomb our civillians. They try their hardest to do the most damage they possibly can. What are they holding back on that they could escalate to? If they had a nuke and the means to detonate one, it would happen regardless of how well they are treated in guantanamo. They aren't sitting behind a desk with a nuke button as a last resort just in case the USA gets really mean.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

zen_tom

Are you celebrating these shameful events?

Or are you suggesting that it was fine to do it then, and so it is fine to do it now?

Pacifier

intensify.
like i said, if the western nation are using "dirty tactics" it will fuel the hatred, making more musilm willing to give their lives for the fight. more suicider bombers even in our western cities not just in Baghdad. Do you want "a London" every month?

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

StanT

At this point, it is a very small minority of a few radical sects that are resorting to terrorism. Continued escalation against Islam in general, could lead to greater numbers of terrorists and greater support from the Islamic majority.

The parallel with the IRA is apt, in this case. While the situation in Ireland is still tenuous, it has been relatively peaceful (lately). Political processes and negotiation seem to have succeeded where brute force and military tactics have not. They are a long way from a final solution, but at least the violence has subsided.

While negotiating with terrorist is something that we will not do, negotiating with governments, political and religious entities that have influence with terrorists, seems to have had a degree of success in Ireland. It's a model we ought to consider.

Mephisto2

What's your point?

I've read extensively on WWII and on the Japanese and Nuremburg trials. I know horrible things happen in war. That's got nothing to do with the original claim and my response.

There was no officially sanctioned torture that I ever heard of.


Mr Mephisto

Mephisto2

My goodness. What a paragon of intelligent and well constructed argument.

A hit! A palpable hit!

Now, have you actually got anything other than guesses to support your claim?

And you don't make tea without boiling water.

What have either of these irrelevant and contextually senseless statements got to do with the issue at hand? That is, your claim that the US tortured enemies during WWII.

Absolutely nothing. Now let's move on.(org)

Mr Mephisto

filtherton

SOME muslims don't like you. Most muslims probably couldn't care less about you or your paranoid delusions about their entire religion. It sounds to me like you'd rather kill off the whole lot of them so you could feel safe in your bed at night.

By your logic, all christians want me dead because i'm prochoice.

moosenose

"Officially sanctioned"? Define that term. Then read up on the Island-hopping campaign, and why so few Japanese prisoners were taken. For example: there was a US submarine that sank a Japanese troopship carrying some 7,000 Japanese troops. After the ship had been sank, the captain surfaced the vessel, brought people on deck with small arms, and proceeded to machinegun as many of the helpless soldiers bobbing in the water as was possible. On land, there were far more Japanese captured "unofficially" than were captured "officially". In other words, they were often killed while surrendering or after surrendering. Those shot while surrendering were excused because some Japanese did indeed use a white flag to mount attacks on US troops, and those killed after surrendering were just ignored. For example, I don't know if you've ever seen real "bring-back" pictures from the war, but I have seen a LOT of them. All original, and not generally published anywhere. The most atrocious tend to be pictures taken from the bodies of dead Japanese soldiers as trophies. It's not at ALL uncommon to find them floating around gunshows, and most show things like using live Chinese people for bayonet or sword practice. Pictures of them killing Allied soldiers are far more rare, but do show up periodically. I've also seen some US atrocity pictures. One series I saw back in 1998 contained pictures of a Japanese POW who had been tied to a tree. He was wearing only a loincloth. The US GIs were pictured taunting him and "roughing him up". The final sequence showed one of them throwing a captured japanese ceramic grenade into his lap and the aftermath. The guy who showed me the pictures was the guy who threw the grenade, and he told me he had been given the honor of killing the POW because it was his birthday. I didn't buy them.

Mantus

Moosenose I am beggining to wonder if you are trying to pull a fast one on the people here or if you are actually reading the links and seeing only what you want to see.

The PDF link is a copy of your earlier linked text.

Just as that first link if you actually read atleast a few of those 51,299 articles (the opinion of Christian www.cuttingedge.org aside) they almost unanimously disprove the point you are trying to make.

djtestudo

The people we are fighting are never going to stop fighting us. They will not listen to either attempts at peace or threats of war. The only way to possibly end their attacks is to completely withdraw from that side of the world; not just militarily, but politically and culturally as well. Even then, I believe they will come after us on our own shores because they hate us period.

I say if they are going to kill us, we should kill them while doing our best to undermine their efforts through not just simple warfare, but also bringing democracy to that area and letting the people as a whole decide their own fate as opposed to the minority with the dynamite vests.

__________________
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Mephisto2

You know exactly what "Officially sanctioned" means.

Torture was not the official policy of the US government or forces during World War II.


Now let's consider your argument a bit here.

Are you, and Ustwo, NOW saying that the actions of a few "bad apples" reflect official US policy?!!

My goodness! What a change from the Abu Ghraib days!


Oh, the delicious irony...



Mr Mephisto

dlish

ok in one sentence u talk about withrdrawing from that part oft he world in every sens eof the word, then u talk about bringing about regime change with democracy..which one is it?

and if the people there do have democracy introduced, and then decide they want a religious fanatic as their leader, would that suffice? or is only a leader merited by the west good enough?


also, the term "they", is a loose term.. is that supposed to mean all muslims/arabs? because i know that only a minute number of wackos would actually do it.

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djtestudo

1) I was talking first about what we would have to do now to end the attacks, to point out how absurd it is, while the second part is what we should do.

2) It is only a minority of the population that is of the "Destroy America" feeling, so the majority would probably support a democratic government over a crazed dictator/severe fundamentalist government.

3) "They" refers to the people we are fighting, as I said in the opening sentence.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun