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07-12-2005, 07:23 AM | #81 (permalink) |
Guest
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moosenose, fundamentalist anything is pretty much hard to deal with. I wont give examples. Have you asked yourself what makes such extreme beliefs attractive to someone? What would it take to get you to believe in some kind of fundamentalist dogma? And what would it take to get you to kill and/or die for those beliefs?
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07-12-2005, 07:31 AM | #82 (permalink) | |
Banned
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I AM a fundamentalist. I believe in the fundamental separation of Church and State. I believe in our fundamentally inherent civil liberties. There are a lot of other things which I believe in that are fundamental bedrock principles of liberty. When I took the Oath to protect and defend the Constitution, I took it seriously. And people who are talking about overthrowing the US government, or who are adhering to our enemies, be they foreign or domestic, are my enemies. I've never had to die for those beliefs, but I have run the risk of being killed for them. |
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07-12-2005, 07:46 AM | #83 (permalink) | |
undead
Location: Duisburg, Germany
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__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death — Albert Einstein |
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07-12-2005, 07:53 AM | #84 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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07-12-2005, 07:58 AM | #85 (permalink) |
undead
Location: Duisburg, Germany
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gas, just for example.
in africa ("war without hate") there were cease fires to rescue injured (something that wasn't possible at the eastern front cause the war there had reached the "next escalation level") additionally, i mentioned it for them umptenth time now, amerca claims to have the moral high ground therefore you should act accordingly. playing nice may not kill terrorists, but it may prevent people from becoming more aggresive. if america acts like a total asshole it surely will affect the view other (currently peaceful) people have towards the US.
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"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death — Albert Einstein Last edited by Pacifier; 07-12-2005 at 08:04 AM.. |
07-12-2005, 08:05 AM | #86 (permalink) |
whosoever
Location: New England
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i was illegal here too for a long time. The West has a long history of homophobia, and homophobic violence. No matter where i am, it's still a game of lesser evils.
i'm quite serious about the human rights violations committed in these other nations, including homophobic violence. but that doesn't mean i'm in any way willing to condone human rights violations in the struggle against other evils. note that much of the abuse reported at abu gharib contained homophobic elements-men forced to masturbate in front of other men, or ritualized de-masculinization. I'm hardly willing to lower my standards for US forces holding prisoners in detention to allow that, just that i can live in a nation where i don't have to be closeted. Again, you've Godwin'd this thing to death. oddly, making a point for me. in 1936, america was not a particularly tolerant nation of the Jewish people. "Judeo-Christian" had not yet been invented. They were still subject to ethnic discrimination..and worse, our nation (along with the rest of the world) refused to take ayslees coming from Germany, because we didn't want more Jews. 1936 was an indictment on a great many peoples and nations. Finding the evil in one does not expurge the evil in others.
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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16 |
07-12-2005, 08:11 AM | #87 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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07-12-2005, 09:05 AM | #88 (permalink) | |
Winner
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07-12-2005, 09:18 AM | #89 (permalink) |
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Whether things like that happened during WWII, the circumstances were different and it fails to justify actions taken right now:
a) It was a far more intense conflict between nation states (i.e. a war) where the opposing sides posed a real threat to one another b) it was 60 years ago c) crimes of the past do not justify crimes of today. |
07-12-2005, 10:23 AM | #90 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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Its really not that hard.
__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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07-12-2005, 10:38 AM | #91 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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07-12-2005, 11:34 AM | #92 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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Imagine if Ted Kennedy, George Galloway or CNN were around back then to "commentate" on the war. It'd be the United States of the Third Reich. |
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07-12-2005, 12:03 PM | #94 (permalink) | |
Banned
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Mean shit happens in war. Trying to fight a war by hugging your enemy is a good way to LOSE the war. |
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07-12-2005, 12:15 PM | #95 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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You don't win a war by planting flowers.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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07-12-2005, 12:19 PM | #96 (permalink) | ||
undead
Location: Duisburg, Germany
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Thats exactly the point why you shouldn't go up the "escalation ladder". Would the Nazis have known about the torture it would have been an excuse to put western POWs into KZs. The terrorists surely dont treat our prisoners fair, but if we do the same we go up one escalation level, giving them an excuse to use even more "dirty tricks". Additionally the conflict becomes more emotional (compare the war agaisnt the western allies and the war again russia) thus making it difficult to come to an peaceful end. I know some of only want to stop when every arab nation is a parking lot, but I'm an optimist. I belive that a peaceful solution, of cource not with Osama, but with the majority of the insurgents, for example, or the "us-haters" in other nations (Saudi Arabia), is possible. Quote:
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"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death — Albert Einstein |
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07-12-2005, 12:22 PM | #97 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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More Americans are dying of the flu and heart disease than have died from Terrorist attacks... let's get some perspective.
Fighting fire with fire *never* solves the problem. It either a) escalates the conflict or b) puts the conflict off for another day. The only way terrorism is going to be defeated is if the terrorists have no reason to attack us (in other words there will probably always be terrorism). A war on terrorism is like a war on drugs... it cannot be won because there is noone to fight. Sure you can stick your finger in the proverbial dyke and increase security at home but that is relatively ineffective. There is always another crack and we only have so many fingers.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
07-12-2005, 12:46 PM | #98 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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07-12-2005, 01:02 PM | #99 (permalink) | |
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Or are you suggesting that it was fine to do it then, and so it is fine to do it now? Last edited by zen_tom; 07-12-2005 at 01:11 PM.. |
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07-12-2005, 01:41 PM | #100 (permalink) | |
undead
Location: Duisburg, Germany
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like i said, if the western nation are using "dirty tactics" it will fuel the hatred, making more musilm willing to give their lives for the fight. more suicider bombers even in our western cities not just in Baghdad. Do you want "a London" every month?
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"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death — Albert Einstein |
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07-12-2005, 01:54 PM | #101 (permalink) | |
©
Location: Colorado
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The parallel with the IRA is apt, in this case. While the situation in Ireland is still tenuous, it has been relatively peaceful (lately). Political processes and negotiation seem to have succeeded where brute force and military tactics have not. They are a long way from a final solution, but at least the violence has subsided. While negotiating with terrorist is something that we will not do, negotiating with governments, political and religious entities that have influence with terrorists, seems to have had a degree of success in Ireland. It's a model we ought to consider. |
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07-12-2005, 02:03 PM | #102 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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I've read extensively on WWII and on the Japanese and Nuremburg trials. I know horrible things happen in war. That's got nothing to do with the original claim and my response. There was no officially sanctioned torture that I ever heard of. Mr Mephisto |
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07-12-2005, 02:09 PM | #103 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
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A hit! A palpable hit! Now, have you actually got anything other than guesses to support your claim? Quote:
What have either of these irrelevant and contextually senseless statements got to do with the issue at hand? That is, your claim that the US tortured enemies during WWII. Absolutely nothing. Now let's move on.(org) Mr Mephisto |
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07-12-2005, 04:37 PM | #104 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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By your logic, all christians want me dead because i'm prochoice. |
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07-12-2005, 06:59 PM | #105 (permalink) | |
Banned
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07-12-2005, 07:56 PM | #106 (permalink) | |
lascivious
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The PDF link is a copy of your earlier linked text. Just as that first link if you actually read atleast a few of those 51,299 articles (the opinion of Christian www.cuttingedge.org aside) they almost unanimously disprove the point you are trying to make. |
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07-12-2005, 08:24 PM | #107 (permalink) |
Baltimoron
Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD
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The people we are fighting are never going to stop fighting us. They will not listen to either attempts at peace or threats of war. The only way to possibly end their attacks is to completely withdraw from that side of the world; not just militarily, but politically and culturally as well. Even then, I believe they will come after us on our own shores because they hate us period.
I say if they are going to kill us, we should kill them while doing our best to undermine their efforts through not just simple warfare, but also bringing democracy to that area and letting the people as a whole decide their own fate as opposed to the minority with the dynamite vests.
__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun |
07-12-2005, 08:41 PM | #108 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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Torture was not the official policy of the US government or forces during World War II. Now let's consider your argument a bit here. Are you, and Ustwo, NOW saying that the actions of a few "bad apples" reflect official US policy?!! My goodness! What a change from the Abu Ghraib days! Oh, the delicious irony... Mr Mephisto |
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07-12-2005, 09:35 PM | #109 (permalink) | |
Currently sour but formerly Dlishs
Super Moderator
Location: Australia/UAE
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ok in one sentence u talk about withrdrawing from that part oft he world in every sens eof the word, then u talk about bringing about regime change with democracy..which one is it? and if the people there do have democracy introduced, and then decide they want a religious fanatic as their leader, would that suffice? or is only a leader merited by the west good enough? also, the term "they", is a loose term.. is that supposed to mean all muslims/arabs? because i know that only a minute number of wackos would actually do it.
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An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy |
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07-13-2005, 01:19 PM | #110 (permalink) | |
Baltimoron
Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD
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2) It is only a minority of the population that is of the "Destroy America" feeling, so the majority would probably support a democratic government over a crazed dictator/severe fundamentalist government. 3) "They" refers to the people we are fighting, as I said in the opening sentence.
__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun |
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people, prisoners, treat |
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