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05-30-2005, 10:12 AM | #41 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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Even the best Cuban food is in Miami. |
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05-30-2005, 01:23 PM | #42 (permalink) | ||
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Location: Mansion by day/Secret Lair by night
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Obviously the misery in Cuba is in large part due to the U.S. trade restrictions we refuse to ease up on because Castro never gave in and said he was sorry about hiding the missles a generation ago. Is it easier to seperate church and state when you decide to keep your choke hold on other countries and deny food and medicine to millions of people? If trade sanctions were placed against the state of Florida, you better believe people would be jumping on boats out of Florida to the Carolinas and Alabama in no time. Isn't it ironic that Castro would give anything for the US to actually be the capitalist, free market economic system that people seem to believe in so strongly? He would become the next Ayn Rand!
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Oft expectation fails... and most oft there Where most it promises - Shakespeare, W. Last edited by chickentribs; 05-30-2005 at 01:25 PM.. |
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05-30-2005, 01:26 PM | #43 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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05-30-2005, 01:44 PM | #44 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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05-30-2005, 01:55 PM | #45 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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Are you saying that its preferable to be miserable in warm weather than in cold weather? |
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05-30-2005, 02:49 PM | #46 (permalink) | ||
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Location: Mansion by day/Secret Lair by night
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And yes, if I was going to be homeless I would take warm weather any day. It wasn't my statement in terms of the dramatic improvement, but if the US opens up trade, a lot of "capitalist" will be on the first planes over to Havana because of the opportunities that exist for business. The market for wheat and corn alone is tremendous, yet we would rather the government pay our farmers subsidies (country welfare) to compensate for crops that go to waste. It's a shame.
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Oft expectation fails... and most oft there Where most it promises - Shakespeare, W. |
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05-30-2005, 02:54 PM | #47 (permalink) | ||
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The CIA publishes the following information about Cuba. To some people, especially the ones in the U.S. who have aids, or contribute via their deaths to the 14 percent higher annual deaths per thousand inhabitants, living in Cuba could be more advantageous than living in the U.S. Your tax dollars helped the CIA to fund the information that I'm posting here.
It appears that Cuba is a better place to live compared to Iraq, or Afghanistan or to residing in some U.S. inner city or rural locales. Why is there such an angry and taunting reaction to comparisons of the quality of life in the U.S. vs. other societies with other political and economic systems? The CIA data refutes the argument that those worst off in the U.S. are still better off than the lower echelon in Cuba. Consider that poor women in labor, people with a high risk of contracting aids, and working poor with no health insurance who find themselves or their children ill or injured, political ideology and nationalistic fervor do not care as much as you do about defending absolutes distilled to "U.S. good", "Cuba bad". Quote:
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In terms of purchasing power parity, the U.S. seems indifferent to devoting economic resources to the goal of lowering it's mortality rates and rates of infectious disease. Cuba, very poor comparitively, seems to have it's economic priorities in order, managing a parity in key measures of health with one of the wealthiest countries in the world. Isn't a reliable measure of a successful and healthful society observed in birth and population mortality rates? Last edited by host; 05-30-2005 at 03:25 PM.. |
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05-30-2005, 03:24 PM | #48 (permalink) | |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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when i wrote this yesterday (i think):
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in particular that there is no requirement that anyone on teh right have the faintest idea what they are talking about, no need to present the slightest information: cuba is commie and therefore bad in every way. i am not a particular fan of castro--but i woudl doubt seriously that any of the conservative folk above could prove--were they to decide for a minute on the subject of the left that proof was actually required--that the american sanctions of cuba have not gone a long long way to creating the conditions that they complain about--complain without actually producing any information, of course.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 05-31-2005 at 09:19 AM.. |
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05-30-2005, 04:25 PM | #49 (permalink) |
Addict
Location: Mansion by day/Secret Lair by night
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Staying with the idea of the thread, I found a quick, simple half page article on Cuba and Communism if anybody is interested. Castro overthrew a corrupt regime in '59, and to survive as a country they needed to adopt a political system that sacrificed the good of the individual for the good of the whole. With few natural resources and trade cut off from 90% of the world, capitalism couldn't work if he wanted to feed the citizens of Cuba. Also, he did institute national education and healthcare and they have survived.
Did this happen at the expense of human rights violations and autocratic rule? Yeah. But think - there is a reason corporations don't operate as democracies, there may be situations that one leader is required... http://www.tulane.edu/~rouxbee/kids98/cuba2.html
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Oft expectation fails... and most oft there Where most it promises - Shakespeare, W. |
05-30-2005, 05:24 PM | #50 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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Host sums it up nicely, though. Last edited by filtherton; 05-30-2005 at 05:26 PM.. |
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05-30-2005, 06:46 PM | #51 (permalink) | |||
Pissing in the cornflakes
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So basicly what you said about people 'whose quality of life would dramatically increase' if they moved to cuba is not true. Far as I can tell, host didn't say anything.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 05-30-2005 at 06:52 PM.. |
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05-30-2005, 07:31 PM | #52 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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05-30-2005, 11:31 PM | #53 (permalink) | |
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I also recall that Cuba has to ration the little things...like MILK. Yeah, boy, they sure as hell imported a lot of milk from the US before the embargo... Welcome to America...where the poor underclasses manage to afford drug habits that cost hundreds of dollars a week... |
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05-30-2005, 11:53 PM | #54 (permalink) |
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It may interest other readers to know that the CIA, in it's "World Factbook" stats regarding Cuba display a yearly average per capita income of (in U.S. dollars) of $3,000 per year. This is equivalent to $250.00 per month.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/cu.html If there is wide spread rationing of milk in Cuba, it is not affecting mortality rates. The median age in Cuba is 35.36 years, and 36.27 years in the U.S., yet the mortality rate in Cuba is 14% lower than in the U.S., 7.19 deaths per thousand in Cuba, vs. 8.25 deaths in the U.S. Milk rationing is not affecting infant moratlity rates either, with the overall rate in Cuba of 6.33 deaths per thousand live births, vs. 6.50 deaths in the U.S., especially considering that the average per capita income in the U.S. is $40,100 http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/us.html The Castro government, with so little economic wealth, appears to be managing a medical miracle, compared not only to U.S. moratlity statistics, but also to the two countries that occupy a neighboring island, Dominican Republic with an infant mortality rate of 32.28 deaths per thousand live births, and the infant mortality rate in Haiti of 73.45 deaths per thousand live births. Maybe if children in Haiti and Dominican Republic "belong to the government", they would be more likely to at least survive into early chidlhood. They seem to die in great numbers without ever knowing that they are not residing under a communist economic system/government. Or is there an argument that they "are better dead than red"? The U.S. military killed a couple of million Vietnamese before that argument was determined by U.S. political leaders to not be worth what it was costing in blood, money, morale, political capital, and in U.S. international standing. Last edited by host; 05-31-2005 at 12:33 AM.. |
05-31-2005, 08:57 AM | #55 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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Where's NCB in all this? His view on cuba are always right on.
if you love cuba so much, host, why don't you emmigrate? Quote:
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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05-31-2005, 10:23 AM | #56 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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I'd be interested in where you get the idea that cuban children belong to the government. As a more general question to whomever cares to answer, i also wonder why cuba gets such a bad rap, while china, no stranger to communism and civil rights abuses gets most favored nation trade status? Quote:
Last edited by filtherton; 05-31-2005 at 11:08 AM.. |
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05-31-2005, 10:41 AM | #57 (permalink) | |
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Location: Mansion by day/Secret Lair by night
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Let me ask you just a quick couple of questions about how my view is wrong. I grew up in a generations deep republican family. Military all over my father's side, midwest working-class on my mom's. I hated Carter, loved Regan (mostly), and was ok with Bush I. To keep this brief - the 3 reasons I was Republican were: 1. Small Federal Govt. - this to me was the base idea for Republicans. A large fed meant laws and budgets would be managed by people who had never stepped foot in my state. Inneffective, "Big Gov't" wasting my tax dollars. Push the power and money to the states. 2. Conservative Fiscal Policies - Conservative doesn't mean spend little, it means you don't influence monetary cycles. The Fed makes small adjustments infrequently to prevent inflation and to ensure the value of the US currency worldwide. Regan used to joke that he had only one lunch with Greenspan in 8 years - the day he appointed him. Since the election in November, Greenspan has had to raise interest rates 6 times because he wasn't allowed to raise them slowly over the last 2 1/2 years like we should have. We can't even give away T-bills on the world market because everyone knows they will lose 20% over the next year out of the gate. Add in our money supply issue and even Japan won't return our calls. 3. Corporate Protection - I admit it, I bought into "Trickle Down Economics". I thought unions were whiners and doomsayers. "The corporations don't have your interests at heart, don't trust them, they will dip into your pension funds, they will do mass layoffs, they will move operations overseas, and they will do it with the government's blessing." It sounds so naive now - The tax breaks go to the corporations so they can re-invest in the future, nay, YOUR future! See, kid... we give the money to the wealthy 1% and than when they spend it, it will trickle, trickle, trickle, down to the rest of you. Eh, I was young. I still think I am right about the first 2 points though. I have just been waiting for a Republican to walk me through how either 1 and 2 are no longer ideology of the Republican party, and when that changed. OR, that 1 and 2 are what being republican is all about, and here's what you, chickentribs, are missing that is going on. I hope that this comes across sincere, because it is. And, Stevo, I hope that you reply and point out what I misunderstand. In lieu of Stevo I would be interested in your opinions Ustwo, or Moosenose, or Powerclown, or anyone... Thanks!
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Oft expectation fails... and most oft there Where most it promises - Shakespeare, W. |
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06-01-2005, 04:22 PM | #58 (permalink) | ||||
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06-01-2005, 04:59 PM | #59 (permalink) | |||||
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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http://www.soundmedicine.iu.edu/segment.php4?seg=460 Quote:
http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi...haff.w5.63/DC1 It's kind of long, and i don't want to waste space with actual scientific information that could otherwise be filled with knee-jerk nationalism so i'll just post the first part: Quote:
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06-02-2005, 01:12 PM | #63 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Or were you just making noise?
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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06-02-2005, 01:31 PM | #64 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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You seemed shocked at the idea that any group of americans would be better off living in cuba. It came accross as some kind of irrational anticommunist knee-jerk reaction. My apologies if that was not your intention.
Now, please explain to me how there is no subset of american citizens who would perhaps live a better existence in cuba. |
06-02-2005, 06:06 PM | #65 (permalink) | ||
Crazy
Location: Norway
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I usually just browse these boards for updates on the lates political issues in the US, but as the economic system of my own country came up in this discussion I felt like contributing for once .
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(*Norwegian slang for corny) Now, there are many different reasons why things in Norway are taxed as they are. The thing that foreigners usually finds the most shocking is the alcohol taxes. The average price for a shot (2cl if i remember correctly) of whiskey in a Norwegian bar is about 10$ and up. (10$ = about 63 Norwegian Crowns) A pint of beer is from 5$ and up, usually costs around 8 or 9 dollars. The reason for this tax a historic unholy alliance between the labour movement and the born-again christian movement which both began in the latter part of the 1800's. Both movements saw the Norwegian drinking culture and widespread alcoholism as a major problem and one of the greatest obstacles to ending poverty. So both movements preached abstinece, and later when both movements had become major parties in the Norwegian Congress (Stortinget) they prohibited the sale of alcohol for a few years, before creating a state controlled alcohol monopoly (Vinmonopolet) and introducing heavy taxes to all alcoholic beverages (as well as eventually making advertisement for alcohol illegal).The alcohol taxes are quite unpopular and moonshine is common outside the major cities, but so far only the far right "Progress Party" is interested in cutting them, as most Norwegians have no problem paying what it costs to get drunk. And that's really why it is so expencive to live in Norway, because in most cases, we can afford it. Food costs quite a bit as toll barriers protect the Norwegian farmers who expect to be paid according to a national average, even though the climate and the landscape of Norway is not exactly suited for farming. If it wasn't for the toll barriers there would be next to no land based foodproduction in Norway and the Norwegian countryside would be left to overgrow, and Norway would be extreamly vulnerable to food blockades, as it has indeed been in the past (esp. during the Great Nordic Wars 1700-1721 and the Napoleonic Wars). Quote:
My countrys economic system is far from perfect, but from in my current situation (20 year old university student) I'm thankfull for the generous statebacked student loan which togeather with a small part-time job gives me full financial independence as well as a "little extra" for luxury and entertainment. (I hope there aren't too many gramatical errors and spelling errors, as it's 4am here and I have a slight dyslexia) |
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06-02-2005, 08:02 PM | #67 (permalink) |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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Anyone who wishes to belittle your spelling, Drewg, should be required to do so in your language. I'm of Norwegian heritage, but I doubt I spell "uffda" correctly.
Thank you for your input. There is an adversion to considering comprehensive health care for all citizens in this country. Small businesses like myself and megasized corporations are expected to carry the health care load for the employed. The unemployed have some stop gap measures that we all pay for. Just a bit of financial analysis would likely justify a national health plan. But I can be silly with logic and that dang analysis stuff. |
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