Are we heading towards communism? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

samcol · 04-07-2005, 07:16 AM

By definition outlined by Marx, the United states is a communist country.

Quote:

The 10 PLANKS stated in the Communist Manifesto and some of their American counterparts are...

1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rents of land to public purposes.
Americans do these with actions such as the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868), and various zoning, school & property taxes. Also the Bureau of Land Management (Zoning laws are the first step to government property ownership)

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Americans know this as misapplication of the 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913, The Social Security Act of 1936.; Joint House Resolution 192 of 1933; and various State "income" taxes. We call it "paying your fair share".

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
Americans call it Federal & State estate Tax (1916); or reformed Probate Laws, and limited inheritance via arbitrary inheritance tax statutes.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Americans call it government seizures, tax liens, Public "law" 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; the imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the "government" (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill); or the IRS confiscation of property without due process. Asset forfeiture laws are used by DEA, IRS, ATF etc...).

5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Americans call it the Federal Reserve which is a privately-owned credit/debt system allowed by the Federal Reserve act of 1913. All local banks are members of the Fed system, and are regulated by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) another privately-owned corporation. The Federal Reserve Banks issue Fiat Paper Money and practice economically destructive fractional reserve banking.

6. Centralization of the means of communications and transportation in the hands of the State.
Americans call it the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) and Department of Transportation (DOT) mandated through the ICC act of 1887, the Commissions Act of 1934, The Interstate Commerce Commission established in 1938, The Federal Aviation Administration, Federal Communications Commission, and Executive orders 11490, 10999, as well as State mandated driver's licenses and Department of Transportation regulations.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state, the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Americans call it corporate capacity, The Desert Entry Act and The Department of Agriculture… Thus read "controlled or subsidized" rather than "owned"… This is easily seen in these as well as the Department of Commerce and Labor, Department of Interior, the Environmental Protection Agency, Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation, Bureau of Mines, National Park Service, and the IRS control of business through corporate regulations.

8. Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
Americans call it Minimum Wage and slave labor like dealing with our Most Favored Nation trade partner; i.e. Communist China. We see it in practice via the Social Security Administration and The Department of Labor. The National debt and inflation caused by the communal bank has caused the need for a two "income" family. Woman in the workplace since the 1920's, the 19th amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, assorted Socialist Unions, affirmative action, the Federal Public Works Program and of course Executive order 11000.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries, gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of population over the country.
Americans call it the Planning Reorganization act of 1949 , zoning (Title 17 1910-1990) and Super Corporate Farms, as well as Executive orders 11647, 11731 (ten regions) and Public "law" 89-136. These provide for forced relocations and forced sterilization programs, like in China.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.
Americans are being taxed to support what we call 'public' schools, but are actually "government force-tax-funded schools " Even private schools are government regulated. The purpose is to train the young to work for the communal debt system. We also call it the Department of Education, the NEA and Outcome Based "Education" . These are used so that all children can be indoctrinated and inculcated with the government propaganda, like "majority rules", and "pay your fair share". WHERE are the words "fair share" in the Constitution, Bill of Rights or the Internal Revenue Code (Title 26)?? NO WHERE is "fair share" even suggested !! The philosophical concept of "fair share" comes from the Communist maxim, "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need! This concept is pure socialism. ... America was made the greatest society by its private initiative WORK ETHIC ... Teaching ourselves and others how to "fish" to be self sufficient and produce plenty of EXTRA commodities to if so desired could be shared with others who might be "needy"... Americans have always voluntarily been the MOST generous and charitable society on the planet.

Do changing words, change the end result? ... By using different words, is it all of a sudden OK to ignore or violate the provisions or intent of the Constitution of the united States of America?????

ARE Americans Practicing Communism?

Government is so massive. In Indiana the state governement is the nubmer 1 employer, and the United states governemnt is number 2. So much for the idea of small limited government.
Indiana Comprehensive Financial Report 2004, Pg. 178

We need to start asking our politicians for solutions via less government intervention, not more. Communism = tyranny. Once the government has all the resources and means of production, they pull the rug out from under you and cut benefits and you get a very authoritarian type government. America is heading down the wrong path imo.

dksuddeth · 04-07-2005, 07:35 AM

should make us all think.

tres · 04-07-2005, 07:38 AM

While I don't necessarly agree with many of this "rules and regulations" of our system.. You must be made of rubber because I think this is a complete streach to compare these things..

roachboy · 04-07-2005, 07:57 AM

the only interesting thing about this is the degree to which the author misunderstands the most basic elements of marx.
the united states is entirely shaped by capitalist relations of production.
any attempt to equate this space with the communism outlined in the manifesto is a priori ridiculous.
i dont know which militia whackjob produced this webtext, nor do i understand how anyone not also involved in milita-type politics could possibly take this seriously.

Quote:

Communism = tyranny.

nothing would be more tyrannical than the abolition of alienation not only at the level of relations of production, but more generally.
nothing would be more tyranical than the abolition of the capitalist division of labor, its specialization, its reduction of those who sell their labor power for a wage to an extension of the machine they operate....
nothing would be more tyrannical than creating a situation in which all of us, not only the wealthy, could operate in the world as complete human beings.
geez...who would want that? better this way, a system in which the cultural and economic elites get to explore their creativity (for example) so that the rest of us do not have to.

there is ***no*** necessary linkage between the type of post-capitalist socialism outlined--and only outlined--in the manifesto and stalinism etc., except maybe in the sealed jar of far right ideology, which seems to presuppose ignorance of the texts, ignorance of history, ignorance of the nature of capitalism as actual system of production. the type of socialism marx outlined would look far more like direct democracy than anything else. you seem content with defending the american-style pseudo-democracy, the capitalist system around which it has been elaborated, with all of its implications. you seem content with capitalist ideology, which you try to radicalize by focus on the absolute autonomy of this fiction called the individual, and which you then confuse with freedom.

i suppose that if you extend your powerlessness far enough, if you approach absolute zero, you can confuse your condition with which would be possible in a free society. what you could not do is confuse the american system with a free society--so it is better to simply pretend that your freedom lay in the zero.

Bill O'Rights · 04-07-2005, 08:10 AM

I dunno. It may not be that much of a stretch. I would posit that it may well be a simple matter of the same means, to a different end. And end whereby it's a corporation, rather than a government, that owns your soul. Just a thought.

NCB · 04-07-2005, 08:33 AM

One day, we're turning into a Christian theocracy. The next, we're turning into communists.

It seems that anyone could make an argument, no matter how weak, that this country is turning into this or that. Words, stats, and clever quotations can be strectched into making any argument look plausible.

Charlatan · 04-07-2005, 08:40 AM

This is one of the things about capitalism... it is almost infinately flexible.

It can absorb the good aspects of other systems (like communism) without losing its own ability to function as a system. The truth is, without many reforms, the violent revolution Marx forsaw could very well have occured.

meembo · 04-07-2005, 11:45 AM

I think that that the US is NOT headed towards communism. The first thought I had after reading the ten planks was how they kinda, sorta fit, just like my horoscope did this morning as I read the comics page. Except for #10, the free education, I think the US has little or no interest in the planks.

martinguerre · 04-07-2005, 12:51 PM

heading towards anything would require a pattern of movement...

estate taxes are going down, for instance. not up.
tax cuts have made the system less progressive.

it's funny to see people in a capitolism argue against state education. education is the number one predictor of productivity in an economic system, if my Econ 101 is still with me. Blargh on them.

NCB · 04-07-2005, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

heading towards anything would require a pattern of movement...

estate taxes are going down, for instance. not up.
tax cuts have made the system less progressive.

How so? OR do you mean less punitive?

guy44 · 04-07-2005, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

How so? OR do you mean less punitive?

No, I'm pretty sure he meant less progressive:

From the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center :

Quote:

A special difficulty in evaluating the tax legislation enacted over the past few years is the presence of several prominent ‘‘loose ends.’’ First, the 2001, 2002, and 2003 tax cuts are scheduled to expire by the end of 2010, but virtually no one expects those expirations to be fully implemented. Second, even before the tax cuts were enacted, the number of taxpayers facing the alternative minimum tax was projected to rise markedly over time. The tax cuts, however, have substantially exacerbated the problem, helping to create a situation that is widely regarded as unsustainable. Finally, neither the enacted legislation nor the administration itself describes which specific future tax increases or spending cuts will pay for the tax cuts, even though those tax increases or spending reductions are the only way to finance the tax cuts over the long term. While those ‘‘loose ends’’ may appear to be technical distractions, their resolution is central to any conclusions about the effects of tax policy in the Bush administration. For the most part, our analysis focuses on scenarios in which (a) the provisions of the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts, but not the 2002 tax cuts, are made permanent; and (b) the AMT is adjusted so that the number of taxpayers facing the AMT in any future year is the same as it would have been in that year had the Bush tax cuts never been enacted. We also examine the effects of alternative methods of financing the tax cuts.

We find that, by any reasonable measure, making the tax cuts permanent would be unaffordable. Likewise, by any reasonable measure, the tax cuts are regressive. When the requisite spending cuts or other tax increases needed to pay for the tax cuts are included, the net effect will be to transfer resources away from low-income households and toward high-income households. The result will make most households worse off, even if the tax cuts generate economic growth (which itself becomes increasingly less likely the longer the tax cuts are not offset by other policy changes, as discussed further below).

This report was authored by experts William G. Gale

Quote:

Bill Gale is a Senior Fellow and holds the Arjay and Frances Miller Chair in Federal Economic Policy in the Economic Studies Program at the Brookings Institution. He is deputy director of the Economic Studies Program and co-director of the Tax Policy Center, a joint venture of the Brookings Institution and the Urban Institute. His areas of expertise include tax policy, budget and fiscal policy, and public and private saving behavior and pensions, and intergenerational transfers of wealth. Before joining Brookings, Gale was an assistant professor in the Department of Economics at the University of California at Los Angeles, and a senior staff economist for the Council of Economic Advisers. He has also served as a consultant to the General Accounting Office and the World Bank.

and Peter Orszag

Quote:

Peter Orszag is a Director of Competition Policy Associates, Inc. In addition to his position at COMPASS, Dr. Orszag is the Joseph A. Pechman Senior Fellow in Economic Studies at the Brookings Institution and Co-Director of the Tax Policy Center, a joint venture of the Brookings Institution and the Urban Institute. He previously served as Special Assistant to the President for Economic Policy at the White House, as Senior Economist and Senior Adviser on the President’s Council of Economic Advisers, and as an economic adviser to the Russian Government. His areas of expertise include fiscal and tax policy, Social Security, pensions, higher education, macroeconomics, and homeland security. Dr. Orszag graduated summa cum laude in economics from Princeton University, and obtained a M.Sc. and a Ph.D. in economics from the London School of Economics, which he attended as a Marshall Scholar. He is co-editor, with Jeffrey Frankel, of American Economic Policy in the 1990s (MIT Press: 2002), coauthor of Protecting the American Homeland: A Preliminary Analysis (Brookings Institution Press: 2002), and coauthor of Saving Social Security: A Balanced Approach (Brookings Institution Press: 2004).

kutulu · 04-07-2005, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Free education for all children in public schools

Terrible thing. The last thing we need is an educated populace.

samcol · 04-07-2005, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

Terrible thing. The last thing we need is an educated populace.

An educated populace could be achieved just as easily through private schooling. Home schooled children, and private schooled children usually do better on tests anyhow. It seems like the more money the government dumps on schooling, the less the kids learn. For kids to learn all you need is a small room with chairs and lights and a good textbook and teacher. These massive multi-million dollar brainwashing camps that we send our kids to today seem to be dumbing them down.

jonjon42 · 04-10-2005, 07:19 PM

do you know what type of bills need to be paid for alot of these private schools? My god, it's like paying for a mini college. Home schooling isn't really viable when both parents work, or the child will end up hitting a ceiling where their parents will be unable to teach them more.

Also, in American society how could communism=tyranny? we vote for the people who create the laws. They are at the people's will and not the other way around. (I know this is a bit idealized, but it works generally) Why would the goverment suddenly cut all benefits? Wouldn't they want to continue to keep the citizens happy?

smooth · 04-10-2005, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonjon42

do you know what type of bills need to be paid for alot of these private schools? My god, it's like paying for a mini college. Home schooling isn't really viable when both parents work, or the child will end up hitting a ceiling where their parents will be unable to teach them more.

Also, in American society how could communism=tyranny? we vote for the people who create the laws. They are at the people's will and not the other way around. (I know this is a bit idealized, but it works generally) Why would the goverment suddenly cut all benefits? Wouldn't they want to continue to keep the citizens happy?

I agree with you jonjon.

The implicit reasoning underlying comments above in this thread are very bizarre to me. The government is not some abstract entity removed from civil society. Sometimes people seem to carry these bureaucratic concepts in their heads and forget that the people sitting at the desks are human beings who live right next door to us. They don't live in palaces, or compounds, or hail from some special lineage. The "government" is comprised of normal, everyday people with the same fears and desires as the rest of us milling around.

The people who take up all the primetime news slots may be economic or political elites, but they are such a tiny fraction of the entire government structure that it just seems alien to me that so many people believe the "government" will just steamroll the average citizen if not for their six-shooter.

moosenose · 04-11-2005, 12:19 AM

If you understood what Communism was, you would hope and pray on your knees that we would someday become Communist.

/wow. Now I'm channelling Communist traitors. Weird.

smooth · 04-11-2005, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moosenose

If you understood what Communism was, you would hope and pray on your knees that we would someday become Communist.

/wow. Now I'm channelling Communist traitors. Weird.

Perhaps you grinned when you wrote this comment. But your inability to seperate an economic system from a political domain merely displays your ignorance to those of us who are educated on the subject.

lurkette · 04-11-2005, 08:56 AM

I don't know how you could seriously ask this question.

Janey · 04-11-2005, 09:06 AM

Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Willravel · 04-11-2005, 09:23 PM

It doesn't really matter. Democracy and communism alike fail when those in charge are selfish and irresponsible.

aberkok · 04-11-2005, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moosenose

If you understood what Communism was, you would hope and pray on your knees that we would someday become Communist.

Agreed (no joke). What most people know of communism/socialism has been distorted by our capitalist education system.

(...rushes off to borrow his buddy's Pathfinder Press books before answering inevitable challenges).

Willravel · 04-11-2005, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

Perhaps you grinned when you wrote this comment. But your inability to seperate an economic system from a political domain merely displays your ignorance to those of us who are educated on the subject.

Oh boy. Communism was ORIGINALLY only an economic system. Marxism, the original communism, is elimination of wage labor and capitalism in favour of a non-statist gift economy. The term has evolved since then. It now has more than 3 meanings. One of those meanings:

Quote:

A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.

Isn't that communism?
A political implementation of communist econemy and communist governmental organization is communism. One can plan a government around the ideals of communism, in which case the economic system plays a huge part in politics. Does capitolism play any role in American politics?

If you're going to speak down to someone, be sure your right first.

moosenose · 04-12-2005, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

If you're going to speak down to someone, be sure your right first.

Dude, thanks for your effort to defend me, but I don't need to be defended from sub-moronic Quislings advocating a thouroghly discredited economic and political model...

moosenose · 04-12-2005, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aberkok

Agreed (no joke). What most people know of communism/socialism has been distorted by our capitalist education system.

Yup, it undoubtedly was our capitalist education system that led to the collapse of the various communist regimes throughout the world...

roachboy · 04-12-2005, 07:20 AM

moose:

your posts are adequate demonstrations in themselves of the fact that information about marxism/socialism have been passed in distorted form to the subjects of this system of social reproduction. you obviously havent the faintest idea what you are talking about but seem quite sure that knowing is unnecessary if you pile up enough good ole american redbaiting slogans. no need to know anything, really, if you have an adequately dense pile of cliches to mine.

what i particularly enjoy is that from within this absurd car-wreck of garbled information you present--which you present in that vaguely sarcastic and content-free mode of a limbaugh disciple---you have the audacity to qualify those who might even try to imagine a more humane socio-economic order than the present capitalist barbarism you have here in the land of Reaction as "quislings"....particularly in that quisling was the prime minister of norway who capitulated to fascism in 1940-----kinda like you have, moosenose--except quisling had the advantage of knowing that he was capitulating--where i doubt seriously the thought ever crossed your mind--you just did what "common sense" told you.

this thread was started on incoherent premises--the "data" presented was organized around a flintstone understanding of marx, of socialism, and was presented apparently with the hope of organizing the non-information available to the american militia set into yet another round of john-birch-style railing against the american "communist" system--what's next? trash about the world jewish conspiracy, crap about zog? it would follow in a straight line from the idiocy you are defending here, moose----the authors seem not to know the first thing about marx, what he was talking about--from that it follows that they know not the first thing about communism either. it also follows that folk who would take that "data" seriously know nothing about marx, what he was talking about, and by extension nothing about socialism/communism--except insofar as it operates in the vacant little world of american far right politics as a synonym for Bad Bad Bad.

guy44 · 04-12-2005, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moosenose

If you understood what Communism was, you would hope and pray on your knees that we would someday become Communist.

/wow. Now I'm channelling Communist traitors. Weird.

You know what the best part of Communist Russia was? The way anyone who disagreed with the political or economic views of the government were branded traitors. Yeah, believing that anyone with a different point of view is a traitor was possibly the single most fun part of communism, don't you think?

Boy, too bad we don't summarily try and find guilty those who believe in a different economic and political system here in the United States.

/idiot

I've always said that, travel far enough left or right, and you'll find yourself at two places that look an awful lot alike. Sure, there are superficial differences, but really, how much of a difference is there between the Russians who arrested citizens who believed in capitalism and Americans who want citizens with opposing viewpoints treated as traitors?

moosenose · 04-12-2005, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guy44

You know what the best part of Communist Russia was? The way anyone who disagreed with the political or economic views of the government were branded traitors. Yeah, believing that anyone with a different point of view is a traitor was possibly the single most fun part of communism, don't you think?

Nah, the BEST part of Communism was the mountains of dead bodies it produced. Hitler was a piker compared to your friendly Uncle Joe. Between the Soviet Gulags, the various Stalinist purges and starvation campaigns, the massive atrocities committed by the Chinese Communists, plus the "friendly baggage" of Communist Regimes such as in Kampuchea under Pol Pot and the various "ron-ry" dictators of North Korea, Communist ideology has a LOT to answer for.

Communism's goal was, from the get-go, expansionist. As such, Communism is the enemy of the West. If you give aid and comfort to the enemy, you are, by Constitutional DEFINITION (Article 3 Section 3, IIRC), a traitor.

So, when y'all establish your Communist Dream State here, which groups are you going to annihilate? My suggestion would be that you start out with the Mormons...because until you've persecuted a religion, you ain't shit. Oh, yeah, and also because every Mormon I've met is both a decent human being, and an EXCELLENT rifle shot.

whocarz · 04-13-2005, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

moose:

your posts are adequate demonstrations in themselves of the fact that information about marxism/socialism have been passed in distorted form to the subjects of this system of social reproduction. you obviously havent the faintest idea what you are talking about but seem quite sure that knowing is unnecessary if you pile up enough good ole american redbaiting slogans. no need to know anything, really, if you have an adequately dense pile of cliches to mine.

what i particularly enjoy is that from within this absurd car-wreck of garbled information you present--which you present in that vaguely sarcastic and content-free mode of a limbaugh disciple---you have the audacity to qualify those who might even try to imagine a more humane socio-economic order than the present capitalist barbarism you have here in the land of Reaction as "quislings"....particularly in that quisling was the prime minister of norway who capitulated to fascism in 1940-----kinda like you have, moosenose--except quisling had the advantage of knowing that he was capitulating--where i doubt seriously the thought ever crossed your mind--you just did what "common sense" told you.

this thread was started on incoherent premises--the "data" presented was organized around a flintstone understanding of marx, of socialism, and was presented apparently with the hope of organizing the non-information available to the american militia set into yet another round of john-birch-style railing against the american "communist" system--what's next? trash about the world jewish conspiracy, crap about zog? it would follow in a straight line from the idiocy you are defending here, moose----the authors seem not to know the first thing about marx, what he was talking about--from that it follows that they know not the first thing about communism either. it also follows that folk who would take that "data" seriously know nothing about marx, what he was talking about, and by extension nothing about socialism/communism--except insofar as it operates in the vacant little world of american far right politics as a synonym for Bad Bad Bad.

Ok prof, why don't you enlighten us ignorant masses about what true communism/marxism is, instead of blowing a bunch of hot air in attempts to insult others. Educate us on what real communism is, how it will save America, and how we can get there from where we are now. Save the snide comments.

smooth · 04-13-2005, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

If you're going to speak down to someone, be sure your right first.

You owe me an apology. I wasn't correcting his understanding of communism with that comment. I was pointing out that one's support or lack thereof for capitalism in this society does not equate to being a traitor in our political domain.

Do you share moosenoose's belief that forming political parties reflecting one's beliefs regarding one particular economic structure instead of another is treasonous behavior in this country?

How does support of either capitalism or communism in the United States differentiate whether that person is a "traitor" to the body politic or the nation-state?

moosenose · 04-13-2005, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whocarz

Ok prof, why don't you enlighten us ignorant masses about what true communism/marxism is, instead of blowing a bunch of hot air in attempts to insult others.

What's so sad is that if there ever WAS an actual Communist revolution in the US, these jokers would be the VERY FIRST up against the wall. Somehow, I doubt that they are old enough to actually remember the "fruits of communism" from a first-hand perspective.

WARNING: THESE PICS ARE EXTREMELY GRAPHIC. DO NOT CLICK THE LINKS IF YOU ARE SENSITIVE.

http://edwebproject.org/sideshow/wall.html

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/1242/pol_pot_art2.jpg

http://cartome.org/skulls

http://www.downtheroad.org/Asia/imag...s/DSC00094.JPG

http://www.downtheroad.org/Asia/imag.../DSCk00007.JPG

Here's a pic of one of the pits: notice the sign: "MASS GRAVE OF VICTIMS WITH OUT HEADS". Glorious, indeed.

http://www.downtheroad.org/Asia/imag.../DSCg00017.JPG

Here's some pics of Glorious Communism in action:

http://www.downtheroad.org/Asia/imag...s/DSC00099.JPG

http://www.downtheroad.org/Asia/imag...s/DSC00095.JPG

http://www.downtheroad.org/Asia/imag...s/DSC00092.JPG

Here's the translation of the Glorious Communist Rules for people being tortured:

http://www.downtheroad.org/Asia/imag...res/DS0042.JPG

You want just ONE picture to sum up Communism? Here it is.

http://www.downtheroad.org/Asia/imag...s/DSC00100.JPG

Those are shackles.

moosenose · 04-13-2005, 12:38 AM

Oh, yeah....here's one more: These kids were all executed by Communists shortly after these pictures were taken:

http://i2.pbase.com/u8/dan_muc/uploa...n_IMG_0942.JPG

Look at this one: http://i2.pbase.com/u8/dan_muc/uploa...n_IMG_0941.JPG Note the pic on the far right side, fourth down. See the infant? Would you care to wager what those ever-so-kind Communists did to that baby shortly after that picture was taken? Now what POSSIBLE danger did a baby that young pose to World Communism to justify that baby's EXECUTION?

Some people here seem to think Communism is some benign, wonderful thing. It's NOT. The result of Communism is LITERALLY MOUNTAINS OF BODIES. Men, women, children, even INFANTS were exterminated in a quest for a "perfect" Communist State.

moosenose · 04-13-2005, 12:46 AM

Just out of curiosity....

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

What you have just described is probably sort of a type of socialism.

How many million corpses will THAT require?

Quote:

As I stated earlier in this post, one's support or lack thereof for capitalism in this society does not equate to traitorous deeds in the political domain.

You may not consider supporting an ideology responsible for literally hundreds of millions of murders to be treasonous. I can live with that. But trying to implement it here? That IS treasonous, and EVERY person who has taken an oath to support, defend, or uphold the U.S. and/or Several States Constitution(s) is your enemy.

smooth · 04-13-2005, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moosenose

Just out of curiosity....

How many million corpses will THAT require?

You should satiate your curiousity by doing something productive with your mind rather than stringing together insults, invective, and disparate imagery resulting from the aftermath of violent and fascist regimes in an attempt to discredit something you haven't come to understand on its own terms before critiqing it.

moosenose · 04-13-2005, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

You should satiate your curiousity by doing something productive with your mind rather than stringing together insults, invective, and disparate imagery resulting from the aftermath of violent and fascist regimes in an attempt to discredit something you haven't come to understand on its own terms before critiqing it.

Oh, so we're back to the old "Communism has never REALLY been tried, and we can't be held ideologically responsible for the mass murders committed in the name of World Communism" defense? How quaint. I'll just wait for your next post....the one where you promise that when YOU implement your particular brand of Communism, you'll barely kill a FRACTION of the over 100 million murders committed in the name of World Communism during the 20th Century....

As the saying goes: "You can't make an omlette without cracking some eggs." Does that ring a bell?

smooth · 04-13-2005, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moosenose

Oh, so we're back to the old "Communism has never REALLY been tried, and we can't be held ideologically responsible for the mass murders committed in the name of World Communism" defense? How quaint.

I suppose you could interpret what I wrote in that way, except that I didn't explicitly defend communism, or marxism.

What I meant, if I wasn't clear enough for you, was that you would benefit from spending some more time actually understanding the things you are trying to speak about in this thread: capitalism, communism, marxism.

At least you wouldn't look like a rude buffoon to me and some others who have respect among our acquantances in this forum. Your post count may increase, but access to various areas on this board hinges upon quality of posts, not quantity.

EDIT: yes, that statement rings a few bells. it sounds remarkably similar to many statements made by our political leaders and supporters of war during their endeavors to expand global capitalism in situations like Iraq, Afghanistan, and Cuba.

moosenose · 04-13-2005, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

...and disparate imagery resulting from the aftermath of violent and fascist regimes in an attempt to discredit something you haven't come to understand on its own terms before critiqing it.

Tell us about the bodies....the mountains of bodies...that your "final solution" to America's problems would produce...

moosenose · 04-13-2005, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

What I meant, if I wasn't clear enough for you, was that you would benefit from spending some more time actually understanding the things you are trying to speak about in this thread: capitalism, communism, marxism.

Been there, done that, put a bullet through every live Communist I could identify, had a few zippers installed by some Communist iron, all while drawing a paycheck from Uncle Sam.

I suggest that if you had some actual EXPERIENCE dealing with REAL Communists and Marxists and the result of Marx's and Engel's works, your position might change.

smooth · 04-13-2005, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moosenose

Been there, done that, put a bullet through every live Communist I could identify, had a few zippers installed by some Communist iron, all while drawing a paycheck from Uncle Sam.

I suggest that if you had some actual EXPERIENCE dealing with REAL Communists and Marxists and the result of Marx's and Engel's works, your position might change.

You have no idea what my experiences are, my background, or who I have interacted with on an interpersonal level.

I had to take out a rude comment. You may get it in your email because your responses indicate to me that you are watching this thread so you can pounce on every response. But suffice to say that I sometimes forget the ignorance you display is symptomatic of capitalist hegemony; I try to refrain from blaming individuals for the context they developed within.

Hopefully you'll find some semblence of peace from your demons behind your eyelids. That's where I'm off to seek mine.

guy44 · 04-13-2005, 08:18 AM

Um, moose, I don't know why my post appears to have traveled somewhere between 10 and 12 meters above your head, but I never suggested that I want to install a communist state. In fact, the ENTIRE POST was rather blatant sarcasm. I was attempting, in fact, to show the similarities between the lack of freedoms available in the USSR and the lack of freedoms I believe your ideal America would have.

Or perhaps you don't label everyone else a traitor as a reflex. Perhaps you simply misunderstand what everyone is saying.

roachboy · 04-13-2005, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Educate us on what real communism is, how it will save America

maybe there is no way to save america, any more than there was a way to stop oedipus.

04-07-2005, 07:35 AM	#2 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	should make us all think. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

04-07-2005, 07:38 AM	#3 (permalink)
tres Insane Location: Long Island, NY	While I don't necessarly agree with many of this "rules and regulations" of our system.. You must be made of rubber because I think this is a complete streach to compare these things.. __________________ "Its better to be hated for who you are, then loved for what your not" --Van Zant "Tell me and I forget. Show me and I remember. Involve me and I learn."

04-07-2005, 08:10 AM	#5 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	I dunno. It may not be that much of a stretch. I would posit that it may well be a simple matter of the same means, to a different end. And end whereby it's a corporation, rather than a government, that owns your soul. Just a thought. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

04-07-2005, 08:40 AM	#7 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	This is one of the things about capitalism... it is almost infinately flexible. It can absorb the good aspects of other systems (like communism) without losing its own ability to function as a system. The truth is, without many reforms, the violent revolution Marx forsaw could very well have occured. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

04-07-2005, 11:45 AM	#8 (permalink)
meembo Junkie Location: Connecticut	I think that that the US is NOT headed towards communism. The first thought I had after reading the ten planks was how they kinda, sorta fit, just like my horoscope did this morning as I read the comics page. Except for #10, the free education, I think the US has little or no interest in the planks. __________________ less I say, smarter I am

04-07-2005, 12:51 PM	#9 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	heading towards anything would require a pattern of movement... estate taxes are going down, for instance. not up. tax cuts have made the system less progressive. it's funny to see people in a capitolism argue against state education. education is the number one predictor of productivity in an economic system, if my Econ 101 is still with me. Blargh on them. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

04-10-2005, 07:19 PM	#14 (permalink)
jonjon42 Psycho Location: inside my own mind	do you know what type of bills need to be paid for alot of these private schools? My god, it's like paying for a mini college. Home schooling isn't really viable when both parents work, or the child will end up hitting a ceiling where their parents will be unable to teach them more. Also, in American society how could communism=tyranny? we vote for the people who create the laws. They are at the people's will and not the other way around. (I know this is a bit idealized, but it works generally) Why would the goverment suddenly cut all benefits? Wouldn't they want to continue to keep the citizens happy? __________________ A damn dirty hippie without the dirty part....

04-11-2005, 12:19 AM	#16 (permalink)
moosenose Banned	If you understood what Communism was, you would hope and pray on your knees that we would someday become Communist. /wow. Now I'm channelling Communist traitors. Weird.

04-11-2005, 08:56 AM	#18 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	I don't know how you could seriously ask this question. __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

04-11-2005, 09:06 AM	#19 (permalink)
Janey Junkie Location: Toronto	Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

04-11-2005, 09:23 PM	#20 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	It doesn't really matter. Democracy and communism alike fail when those in charge are selfish and irresponsible.

04-12-2005, 07:20 AM	#25 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	moose: your posts are adequate demonstrations in themselves of the fact that information about marxism/socialism have been passed in distorted form to the subjects of this system of social reproduction. you obviously havent the faintest idea what you are talking about but seem quite sure that knowing is unnecessary if you pile up enough good ole american redbaiting slogans. no need to know anything, really, if you have an adequately dense pile of cliches to mine. what i particularly enjoy is that from within this absurd car-wreck of garbled information you present--which you present in that vaguely sarcastic and content-free mode of a limbaugh disciple---you have the audacity to qualify those who might even try to imagine a more humane socio-economic order than the present capitalist barbarism you have here in the land of Reaction as "quislings"....particularly in that quisling was the prime minister of norway who capitulated to fascism in 1940-----kinda like you have, moosenose--except quisling had the advantage of knowing that he was capitulating--where i doubt seriously the thought ever crossed your mind--you just did what "common sense" told you. this thread was started on incoherent premises--the "data" presented was organized around a flintstone understanding of marx, of socialism, and was presented apparently with the hope of organizing the non-information available to the american militia set into yet another round of john-birch-style railing against the american "communist" system--what's next? trash about the world jewish conspiracy, crap about zog? it would follow in a straight line from the idiocy you are defending here, moose----the authors seem not to know the first thing about marx, what he was talking about--from that it follows that they know not the first thing about communism either. it also follows that folk who would take that "data" seriously know nothing about marx, what he was talking about, and by extension nothing about socialism/communism--except insofar as it operates in the vacant little world of american far right politics as a synonym for Bad Bad Bad. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 04-12-2005 at 07:23 AM..

04-13-2005, 12:38 AM	#31 (permalink)
moosenose Banned	Oh, yeah....here's one more: These kids were all executed by Communists shortly after these pictures were taken: http://i2.pbase.com/u8/dan_muc/uploa...n_IMG_0942.JPG Look at this one: http://i2.pbase.com/u8/dan_muc/uploa...n_IMG_0941.JPG Note the pic on the far right side, fourth down. See the infant? Would you care to wager what those ever-so-kind Communists did to that baby shortly after that picture was taken? Now what POSSIBLE danger did a baby that young pose to World Communism to justify that baby's EXECUTION? Some people here seem to think Communism is some benign, wonderful thing. It's NOT. The result of Communism is LITERALLY MOUNTAINS OF BODIES. Men, women, children, even INFANTS were exterminated in a quest for a "perfect" Communist State. Last edited by moosenose; 04-13-2005 at 12:44 AM..

04-13-2005, 08:18 AM	#39 (permalink)
guy44 Somnabulist Location: corner of No and Where	Um, moose, I don't know why my post appears to have traveled somewhere between 10 and 12 meters above your head, but I never suggested that I want to install a communist state. In fact, the ENTIRE POST was rather blatant sarcasm. I was attempting, in fact, to show the similarities between the lack of freedoms available in the USSR and the lack of freedoms I believe your ideal America would have. Or perhaps you don't label everyone else a traitor as a reflex. Perhaps you simply misunderstand what everyone is saying. __________________ "You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"