KMA-628

I like the flat tax idea, but you will hear a lot of screaming over the children part. People without children already bitch about having to pay for public school when they don't have kids, imagine how much they will scream when there is another benefit they don't get because they aren't procreating.

Keep in mind that the concept of a flat tax is to deal with spending, not income. Deductions, benefits, etc should be based on amount of spending, not how much a person makes. Mainly because, one of the reasons to go with a flat tax over an income tax is that, hypothetically, a flat tax encourages saving (something our economy is sorely lacking in) whereas income taxation doesn't.

I see your point, but the "non-rich" benefit greatly from deducting interest rates.

In many cases, the deduction from their mortgage interest rates is the only reason they get a return and don't have to pay.

That kinda is one of the concepts behind a flat tax. However, they problem is in spending.

If you can't control gov't spending, no amount appropriated to debt will help, as the debt will just continue to increase beyond revenue.

You might be interested in this: Awhile back I was reading an article about flat taxes currently in use. Estonia has one that has worked so well that they are now in the process of lowering the flat tax rate. They have seen tremendous growth in revenue since changing their taxation system. Not that Estonia itself is a great example, but it was interesting to read about their success. I will look for the article later and post it if I can find it.

This is where you won't find any friends among the flat tax proponents.

__________________
Before you criticize someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry at you.......you're a mile away.......and they're barefoot.

martinguerre

It is most definitely not a "sin" tax. Dammit man, but i resent anyone telling me that i haven't earned the right to put some money down on the bar, and have a cold one after a long day. Using beer and spirits as a way to plug the dam of a broken tax structure is not an okay option. Nickel and dime people on this little shit...it does nothing but make the tax system less transparent, and more aimed at the working classes.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

VARIETY

Ummmm.... You DO realize that all of the bad things that might happen are a result of the proposed tax INCREASE, don't you?

martinguerre

which is proposed to address the shortfalls created by income tax cuts.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

VARIETY

That explains this statement.

Basically, the fact that EIC recipients have continued to exist is what qualifies them for a chunk of everyone else's money.

KMA-628

Income taxes go to the federal gov't--not to the states.

State taxes, which weren't cut by Bush, go to the state.

__________________
Before you criticize someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry at you.......you're a mile away.......and they're barefoot.

martinguerre

and you think that federal funding to the states hasn't gone untouched?

Look...i don't know the hard numbers for ohio. i don't live there. but the article does pretty clearly report that the implication was that these beer taxes were in response to other cuts. This is not the discussion, KMA. This is a RTFA issue.

In my Minnesota, the state is in the same bind. the bush economy has not been kind to our tax base, and a bunch of like minded "tax cut" republicans have gutted social services and run up a deficit. user fees are in a sharp rise...and i wouldn't be unsurprised to see shit like this beer tax come this way.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

macmanmike6100

regardless of your opinion of what is taxed, i think it's far more interesting (and frightening) to talk about how our government has already budgeted our money. $71 billion annually on education vs hundreds of billions on defense...I know that education is a state and local issue, but the failure of our inner city children and many other parts of our public school system is a national problem.

stevo

I don't necessarily disagree with you on a flat tax. But if your dad, who makes $5mm a year, pays half of that in taxes, how can you or he say he is not paying his fair share? 50% is a hell of a lot more than the 20% you proposed.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

pan6467

He pays it but he does get quite a bit back, once he writes off interest, depreciations on businesses, losses on stocks, charitable contributions.... etc. By the end of the day he probably gets a majority of it back in refunds.

I was talking from his gross pay check. Plus that 50% included state, local, property taxes.

Let me just say last year he bought a Range Rover and took 1 of his Carribean trips on just his refund monies.

So you tell me.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

Not necessarily all true.

The federal gov't does kick money to the states.

State taxes while they do stay in state are now being used to make up for the federal losses of tax monies.

I do wonder why our military budget is so high when I have been reading 25% of all US bases are on the chopping block and may soon be closed.

Or how this administration can say they are pro-veteran while they close VA hospitals and cut veterans benefits.

(Just an aside as the base in my hometown of Mansfield Ohio is on that block and the VA hospital in Brecksville is the only VA hospital that treats addicted veterans, which by the way contains the country's best Compulsive Gambler's treatment facility.)

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Tarl Cabot

I would mention that he supported one hell of a lot of people with his state and local taxes, and educated a great many more with his property taxes.

And the operative word in your last sentence is REFUND. It was his money to begin with, and whatever he didn't get refunded supported how many families? Three? Four? Twenty?

RangerDick

Winner winner chicken dinner!!!!

You've hit on the crux of the issue with your post...income redistribution.

pan6467

There will come a day very very soon when the lower classes wil simply just STOP working and revolt. And it will be because of pompous attitudes like the 2 posts above me.

Doubt what I say.......ask King Louis the 16th and Marie Antoinette... keep the attitude going..... I'd rather pay taxes than be in civil war or lose my freedoms....

Read your history, primarily 1780's and 90's France and compare it to today. I am prepared to die in battle for what I believe in....

My father knows this and again I re-iterate.... he knows his tax burden is too low right now, but as he says knowing and doing are 2 totally different things. At least he knows....... some on here it will have to take revolution for.

And in answer to your questions.... what percentage of his money goes to a war he does not believe in as opposed to educating which he does believe in?

WIll his grandkids be paying 90-100% to pay for the red ink we chose to run now because of greed?

What percentage of his money goes to give GOP Senators and Reps raises while they refuse to raise the minimum wage, while people go broke because the government won't fix healthcare?

What percentage of his money goes into the roads, the schools, the rebuilding and the future and what percentage goes into foreign leaders as bribes to "support us", Haliburton products that get bought but never arrive to the military, the president's "vacations", GOP votes on powerplays like Terry Schiavo, need I go on?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

smooth

I would just encourage you to rethink this position in light of the realization that we are operating within the tailend of a capitalist production-consumption chain. that is, rethink what will happen to the economy when 300+ million consumers stop pumping as much money back into the system.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Seaver

So you're saying that people who are given free education, healthcare, and pay no taxes are as bad as those peasants who paid ALL of the French taxes and were reliant on agricultural base that couldnt support the population? Wow...

NCB

Pan, how much more in taxes should your father pay? How much moe should people making 150000 a year pay? Give me a number, percentage, whatever. All I hear it's not enough and the soup lines are getting longer and longer. Give a number!!!

__________________

pan6467

I already posted on page 1 I believe (may be wrong it ma be in another thread), I am a believer in a flat tax. 17-20% where 17 is the number and the extra 3% goes directly to pay down the deficit (by constitutional amendment if need be... and if the deficit is paid down the tax reverts to a straight 17%.

(I use 17% because that is the number I hear bandied about in many debates from people on both sides.)

I also believe firmly in raising the tariffs, (which I have discussed ad nauseum), especially raising tariffs to equal those other countries have on us (otherwise it isn't fair and equal trade is it...... hence one major reason for trade deficits).

I also believe in capital gains and inheritance taxes on anything over 1 million dollars.

That's a brief answer, like I said I already gave a number and talked about it.

The point is, if everyone knew they were paying EXACTLY the same percentage, I think we all could live with that.

Now, the percentages and the way taxes are they are all over the map and in most cases harmful to the lower, the middle class and upper middle class, while extremely lenient on those making the most.

It's a fallacy that the GOP lives and thrives on that the rich pay too much and are unhappy. I speak from what I know.

My father is a GOP, but not for tax cuts..... he votes GOP because he believed like many they were the fiscally responsible that would cut red tape, make government smaller but more efficient and that social programs would still be ok.

He is one, who now, believes he was lied to and feels used because he sees huge deficits from massive war costs while social programs suffer, government gets bigger and the religious right is taking over and pushing their agendas.

My father and I have a lot in common and I take after a lot of his political views, it's just I'm more socially liberal and think we need to fund more social programs (like addiction clinics and so on), and he believes that private funding of social programs works better because of less government interference and regulations would mean better treatments. In some ways I agree.

But I digress....

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

NCB

Pan, just because your wealthy dad says he pays too little in taxes doesn't mean that his opionion has more weight than people who say they pay too much. I understand your eagerness to use him as an example to us minions that are only in the top 5%, but please don;t presume that he speaks for all wealthy folks.

A flat tax.....I could live with that

__________________

pan6467

I presume nothing. The fact of the matter is wages are going down,the tax base is being depleted by outsourcing, lower wages and tax cuts to the most wealthy, while our great supreme handpicked by God, Himself, leader runs higher and higher deficits spending more on militray and less on social programs and education.

To make up for the loss in tax cuts and the rise in state deficits the states are raising sales taxes, and "sin" taxes. These taxes affect the middle and lower classes far more than income taxes affect the rich, to say otherwise is foolhardy and blind.

When I call to order a phone with the utmost basic service and out of the 14.95 I pay, 10 of it is taxes, something is seriously wrong. That 10 doesn't mean jack to the extremely wealthy but someone living from paycheck to paycheck that 10 means a lot.

When you buy gas and .44 cents/gallon is tax, it doesn't affect the extremely wealthy, but again the middle and lower classes that are trying to make it are absorbing it and losing the battle of trying to save.

To sit there and say the rich pay far too many taxes when the hidden taxes and sales taxes hurt the middle classes and poor far more than a raise in the upper echelons income taxes would hurt them, there is a serious problem.

Part of the advancement of the human race is based on the fact that those who have more share, we don't see that today. In essence the way the debt is and the way greed and selfishness has risen, we are headed backward not forward and we are developing into a 2 class society.

Perhaps, it came with the super fast moving technology, or perhaps greed is the result of the baby-boomer generation that has been spoon fed by the press to believe they were/are the greatest generation, they had great oppurtunities and they found that money and toys are far more valuable than family and helping maintain a nice community with great schools and decent jobs.

The future at the rate we are going is not going to be pretty, if we do not change the way we think, the way we do business and the way we spread our wealth, we will as a nation perish into totalitarianism and lose what we do have.

I say totalitarianism because government is run by people's wallets and when the tough times come people will seek the person and party they believe have the answers and in reality it could lead to very bad things.

Ask 1930's Germany, one of Hitler's greatest selling points that got him into power was the fact he was able to put people to work, lift them out of the massive depression and inflationary problems they faced and turn Germany into the wealthiest nation at the time.

History will repeat itself again and we in the US are headed for choosing a leader that will pull us out of our problems while we turn blind eyes to loss of liberties and rights (look what we are turning blind eyes to now).

If we continue to tax and cut services to the middle class while the rich continue to get tax cuts, then we are doing far far more damage than good.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

stevo

Pan, I don't necessarily disagree with a flat tax, but you seem to be contradicting yourself on this one. Use the gasoline tax as an example. It is like a flat tax, everyone pays the same percentage of their fuel costs in taxes, yet as you stated, this hurts the lower income people more. A flat tax would have the same effect on lower income folk. Someone making $30,000 and paying 17% would be left with $24,900 while someone making $3,000,000 would be left with $2,490,000.

If a flat tax were implemented the rich would end up paying much less and the poor would be paying much more. I think what you want is a progressive tax, like we have now, just more progressive. That would ensure that the rich pay their "fair share" and that the poor don't get shafted.

Another alternative is to do away with income taxes all together and rely on a value-added (sales) tax. This way people only pay taxes based on their consumption. The rich would obviously pay more $$ in taxes here, but at the same time would be paying a lower percentage of their income than poor people.

Either way you look at it, it's unfair to someone.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

james t kirk

The term "sin tax" has been around far longer than Clinton.

Temporary_User

I don't live in the states, so im not going to get into the whole tax debate. All though Im currently doing a simple research project on Sin taxes for a college paper.
My stance that I was given is that sin taxes should be abolished.
It seems that most people don't even thinkg of them as taxes.
They are usually included in the price so they're unnoticable.

alot of my info is about cigs, but its all relative....

Alot of politician like to argue that some of the $ goes into programes to discourage such activities, but of course they dont want these activities to stop, then they wont be getting their $.

Reports show that for every 10% increse in prices 4% usage drops.
smoking bans in the workplace and such do a better job @ discouraging use.

these taxes only encourage smuggling.
I can buy a case of beer brewed here (canada) for more than 1/2 off if I goto the states and buy it.
between 1980-1994 cig smuggling increased 253% and shopping across state borders rose 395%

during ww1 canada implemented a 10% tax on their diamonds to help w/ the war effort. this was never dropped, thus making canadian diamonds more expensive than others right here in canada. which would you buy?

I dont know, it just seems to me that there are better ways to discourage use.
when Im done my essay I might post it on here just to see what you all think.

alansmithee

I personally see no problem with the sin taxes. If people don't want to pay the tax, don't use the products. I'd much prefer taxes on goods that are not in any way necessary, than more taxes on work or a general sales tax.

pan6467

The biggest problem with "sin taxes" is they are aimed at products lower classes buy.

An upper class Heineken drinker isn't going to really notice 18-20 cents increase, whereas the person who buys Busch is far more likely to notice the increase.

Same with cigarettes. The upper class Dunhill/ Nat Sherman smoker won't notice a 50 cent increase whereas the lower class Marlboro smoker will.

Same as Gas Taxes that in Ohio are 44 cents per gallon. The upper class driving that brand new SUV that gets 10 MPG doesn't miss that 44 cents/gallon, yet the guy driving the beat up 10 year old car does.

These taxes by ANY study shows that the lower clases spend more money on and buy more of these products than the upper classes.

Yet, they keep cutting capital gains taxes, inheritence taxes and luxury taxes, where the upper classes have more disposable money.

So tax wise the beer drinking cigarette smoker that makes $30,000 a year pays far far more of a percentage in taxes than the upper class does. But those who support these taxes (usually the GOP) do not mention that, and will change the subject as to how the upper class pays more in income taxes. Yet, the poor are in fact paying a higher percentage.

The right also argues that these people choose to drink and smoke. True, but to say that while you drive a new luxury SUV that gets 10 MPG is hypocritical.

In essence these taxes afford the right to cut the upper class taxes. And yet looking at how inflation is soon coming, gas prices are soaring and the stock markets running flat at best, the LIES that those cuts help the economy are bullshit. What they are allowing is for the rich to save up for the serious recession/depression we are about to hit into.

Call me a pessimist, but watch gas prices and gold..... I lived through the mid 70's to early 80's and the trends today are exactly the same as the trends that caused that. But the worst part is there is a smaller middle class, more wealth is owned by the very very rich, government is running up heavy debts and putting less and less into true growth projects such as education and small businesses, and people make less, survive on credit and have fewer otions for jobs. We won't even get into the trade deficit.

So unless we find a way to even out taxes, rebuild a true decent paying manufacturing sector and middle class growth instead of loss, our country is living on seriously borrowed time.

The right will argue, cry scream and shout but they will not argue with facts about why the taxes on the rich should be lower and that it promortes growth.

The 3 fastest growing employment sectors in the past 10 years have been: temp. jobs, Wal*Mart and other discount retailers and the fast food industry..... which of those actually pay decent, liveable wages and give benefits?

While the top 1% have seen their personal wealth grow exponentially. Don't believe me look how much Bill Gates, the Walton family, Warren Buffett, etc were worth 20 or even 10 years ago and compare how much of the GDP and percentage of wealth the "middle classes" held 20 years ago, 10 years ago and now. Then see where the wages have gone..... compare how the worker wages have held steady or gone down, benefits have seriously declined, while again, the CEO's wages and benefits have increased exponentially.

AGain, the right will never aknowledge this, show facts or even truly debate this, all they can do, however, is keep claiming they pay too much in taxes.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

flstf

I wonder if a flat tax were implemented combined with closing all the loopholes if the rich would still pay less.

KMA-628

Where do we get this presumption that taxes must be "fair"? Nobody wants any of their money taken away from them so, by very definition, taxes are inherently "unfair".

What ruling stick do we use to decide if someone is paying enough, not enough or too much?

The purpose behind a flat tax is not to make sure the rich pay more, pay less, or any of that crap. That has absolutely nothing to do with the concept.

Now, it should be a consideration when preparing a proposal, but with everyone having different opinions as to what is "fair", we will never be able to achieve a system that will apeal to everybody.

Here are my two requirements for any tax reform to be considered (by me, at least).

1) It must bring in the necessary revenue for our gov't to continue. (I would also like to see the addition of spending caps placed on our gov't)

2) Everybody must either pay the same amount in taxes as they were or less. No increases whatsoever.

__________________
Before you criticize someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry at you.......you're a mile away.......and they're barefoot.

flstf

I wasn't questioning the fairness, I was asking stevo if closing the loopholes and putting in a flat tax might bring in as much or more from those most able to pay are paying now. The tax code is so complicated that I believe many people who can afford tax attorneys and accountants will instead pay that money in taxes with a flat rate and no loopholes.

KMA-628

flstf -

That was more of a general comment that I wrote because of what you and stevo where writing. I was responding to you, but the comment wasn't really pointed at you--sorry, I shoulda been more clear.

This whole concept of taxes being fair, or needs to be fair, is sometimes foreign to me.

__________________
Before you criticize someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry at you.......you're a mile away.......and they're barefoot.

Konichiwaneko

I could respect your opinion Pan if it wasn't for the fact that your post makes it seem like because you don't have the money your father has, it's not right for him to have it either.

Yeah the guy gets some breaks, but so do you. So do all of us. Each tax bracket has it's advantages or disadvantages. Being a single male, it sucks seeing almost 40% of my paychecks taken away, but you know what my take home is all for me so that ain't all that bad.

Even after his tax break, your father probably still paid more in taxes then I will make the next 5 years, and I respect that. I also respect you paying your taxes, and everyone else paying.

I feel personally like people would find anything they can to make the tax cut look bad. It was mentioned before about goverment spending and that's a huge issue. You save $2.00 but spend $5.00, you aren't sitting pretty in the positives here.


In the end I'll say this. Your problems aren't bigger then someone elses just because they could afford to forget or erase them. Your problems are your problems, and no amount of making anyone else suffer should make your problems better. If it does then the only person wrong would be you.

That's the vibe I'm getting.

__________________

flstf

My attraction to tax reform like the flat tax or some kind of national sales tax instead is because of the complicated tax code. Even the IRS has problems interpreting it. There must be a simpler way.

Try as I might, sometimes I never really know whether my tax form is totally accurate or not and I imagine there are millions of us in the same boat. The last time I traded some commodity contracts the long term taxes wound up being more than the short term ones which I know/think is wrong but I just followed their instructions. Anyway you know what I mean.

pan6467

Like I said I never begrudge a person for hardwork earning his money. But with wages going down the loss of industry, the tax base is not there for these cuts.

And to cut what social and educational services we do have while spending huge amounts on foreign countries that the leaders keep the monies, on a war that they have no exit plan for and keep throwing money into (and most goes to Haliburton who doesn't even supply what they have said they would to the troops), to cut veterans benefits and close VA hospitals while claiming to be all for the vet, there are serious problems.

It amazes me how fast the right is wanting to crush any social programs but yet will throw HUGE money at a war and offer tariff free or very very little tariff trade to countries that hate us and tariff our imports out of competition.

Until you fix the tax base and build it back up, the rich are eventually going to have to pay more taxes, because they will be the only ones paying.

And if you think the GOP can remain in control as they keep cutting social programs and running extremely high deficits while cutting the rich's taxes you are in for an awakening.

I said this in '88 and I'll say it now, the best thing the Dems can do is lose in '08 and allow the GOP to continue to show their true face. Because they will have to either severely cut social programs and that will not go over well as wages keep falling, or they will have to massively raise taxes. Either way they slice their own throats.

And remember Bush HAD to raise taxes to pay for Reagans deficits. Just as in '08 (or sooner) the sitting Pres. will have to.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

boatin

i make over 6 figures, and i am undertaxed. we donate seriously to causes we like, and try to make a difference.

we have 3 bridges in this town that need serious work, and the infrastructure of America is only getting worse.

could we spend less on the military and more on infrastructure and education? you bet. I'd love to see it. but i would happy to pay more tax. i have no issue with carrying the load i can carry. the fact that it's more load than others can carry is not an issue for me.

for each his ability, or something...

pan6467

You have me lost. You don't like paying taxes because you feel you pay too much and it is unfair to you, yet, you say that the concept of taxes being fair is sometimes foreign to you.

Look around man, our country right now is built on debt from people who made certain wages, and now those wages are declining fast.

Gas prices are just the tip of the iceberg, everything is going to go up, vendors will have to raise prices because of transportation costs, products made with petroleum and petroleum by-products are going to go up. Inflation is coming and it is going to come in hard and fast and our current wages will not handle it. Nor will the country because there is no freaking industry anymore to pull us out.

Who do you propose to pay taxes when the family of 4 will be barely making it? Who do you propose to buy houses and keep new construction going when noone has the jobs nor the wages to buy?

It's far more than just taxes man, the economy is getting ready to take a serious dump and the CEO's are making fortunes and getting taxed far less than the country can afford.

You want lower taxes but then you fight against rebuilding industry, tariffing imports, Small Business Loans, fair wages, and so on. We can't afford it, we either need to build a working class with decent wages and tariffs and have government offer SBL or wait for the economy to crash and tax the rich far far more heavily than they are now to pay for the lost taxes from the lower class, because the middle class will be non-existant.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"