Formal ceasefire between Israel & Palestine - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

CShine · 02-08-2005, 02:44 AM

Wow! How 'bout some good news for a change!

Quote:

With a verbal cease-fire deal in hand, Israeli and Palestinian leaders gathered at a Mideast summit Tuesday for face-to-face talks and goodwill gestures aimed at ending four years of violence and entering a new era of peace talks. An invitation to both sides to meet separately with President Bush at the White House this spring added momentum on the summit's eve.

"I hope it will be positive. I hope it will open the road for bilateral negotiations," said Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas.

The cease-fire agreement will not be a formal written document, but instead a verbal declaration by each side to halt violence, said a senior Israeli government official, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Abbas will declare an end to violence against Israelis, and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon will declare an end to Israeli military operations, the senior Israeli official said. An Egyptian official also familiar with the deal and speaking on condition of anonymity confirmed the details.

"I hope that this will be the beginning of a long road of reviving the trust lost between us, the confidence lost between us, the cooperation lost between us, the negotiation lost between us," Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat told Israel Army Radio. "And I think we can do it."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...mideast_summit

ObieX · 02-08-2005, 04:48 AM

Now we get to see if they really want peace. Up until now it hasn't looked like it. Maybe something productive will come out of this, but i doubt it.

Does anyone REALLY expect to see an independent Palestinian state by the end of this decade? Withdrawl from areas is one thing, complete independence is something else. This is all a good step in the right direction, but it seems every time these two parties take one step in the right direction they end up taking two steps back the following week.

The Palestinian territory not being contiguous would suck, thats where a bunch of problems comes in. But if Michigan can do it the Palestinians can do it. They may not like it, but it can be done. Its certainly not worth fighting over.

tecoyah · 02-08-2005, 05:13 AM

It would seem we are back to the beginning of the process Clinton started. To this day I dont fully understand what derailed the progress made at that time. I am hopeful, but not overly optimistic of this development. Still.........it is better than nothing.

C4 Diesel · 02-08-2005, 05:25 AM

I think a large part of the difference from the Clinton years is the Palestinian leadership. Now they have a democracy, then they had a military dictatorship. Look at the track records of the two typesof government and you'll find democracys to be much more engaging in diplomacy and less inclined to violence. At this stage of the game, I think a Palestinian state is easily possible within the next 5 years.

Not only do I think that a Palestinian state would be good for the Palestinians... it would be VERY good for the United States. The fundamentalist muslim world will be significantly less hostile towards us once we stop taking sides in Israel vs Palestine - which will happen because there will be no such conflict anymore.

drakers · 02-08-2005, 08:18 PM

Hamas is going to be the problem with this cease-fire. They don't seem to care about anything but what they want (and they don't seem to want any compromise). I hope the Palestinian government can see Hamas for what they really are, a bunch of selfish bastards that really don't care about peace for their community. Were talking about land not human lives (innocent ones I might add). Hopefully something good can come out of this mess.

mojodragon · 02-08-2005, 08:23 PM

Call me skeptical, but I don't see it making much of a difference. Didn't Clinton negotiate a cease fire, and the underlings just kept fighting? Instead of it being gov't sanctioned military strikes, the violence is just going to be from "insurgent groups" or "terrorist cells". Killing by any other name is still killing.

Mojo_PeiPei · 02-08-2005, 08:30 PM

Drakers is right, if anything this will lead to more problems, especially has the state of Palestine emerges and becomes more and more corporeal.

The terrorist group Hamas's stated goal is the destruction of Israel, well actually the PLO's charter says the same thing to this day, regardless of what Abbas does, they will fuck it up. The only reason Hamas will ever agree to a cease fire is to secure weapons and funds, and so Israel doesn't launch any missles through their windsheilds when they are rolling around.

The problem is Hamas will still terrorize, Israel will have no choice to move in, because the PA has proven time and time again they are both unwilling and unable to do anything about it. Then you have Al Aqsa which is actually a shadow arm of the PA, what happens when they pull some shit? I see tanks in Gaza.

(If)When the Palestinian state emerges, there will be a problem. No longer will Israel be occupying territory, they will be invading a sovereign nation, and I will say good riddance.

irateplatypus · 02-08-2005, 09:32 PM

i think that the establishment of a palestinian state is the only way to peace or resolution. as mojo pointed out, it's hard to make peace when major components of one side exists to destroy the other. to some palestinian militants... the goals aren't oriented to provide stability for their own people, but to destroy another. there really can be no lasting peace while this movement exists.

hopefully this ceasefire is a sign that abbas is getting his house in order. a formalized palestinian state recognized by the israeli government without border disputes is the only way to bring shape to this amorphous conflict.

squirrelyburt · 02-08-2005, 09:40 PM

How can you say Clinton was the author of this?? They have been having pointless summits from President to President for as long as I can recall. Ford, Carter, all of them. Now that the murderer Arafat is dead, we'll see how it goes. Hamas already has said they will continue to resist.

Willravel · 02-08-2005, 09:48 PM

I hope they don't brake my heart again. I'm praying that this will be the time when it sticks. There can be peace. There has to be a possible peace between the Palestinians and Isrealis.

OFKU0 · 02-09-2005, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

(If)When the Palestinian state emerges, there will be a problem. No longer will Israel be occupying territory, they will be invading a sovereign nation, and I will say good riddance.

Yeah but you know Mojo, alot of people would like to say good riddance to the Israeli's also but you know what that equates to don't you? Hatred against the chosen people in the chosen land. Funny how hate is always percieved as a one way street when Israel is involved.

The simply answer, and I'll state it again, if ever there is a sovereign Palestinian state, that would be highly construed as a failure to the Israeli's. Don't forget, the Palestinian's may look at the Israeli's as pig's but the Israeli's look at the Palestinian's as the shit that comes out pig's.

Being on level ground and seen as equal's occupying neighboring sovereign states is, as one writer wrote in the National Post or somewhere, as memory serves, " a Palestinian state would be a greater blow to Jews than the Holocaust." Sorry, no link,read it about 6 months ago.

But my guess is that there will be a sovereign state and Israel has to comply, since it is time for a little payback to the Americans for years of support and for fighting wars to protect them. It's all part of the grand scheme of a democratic mideast. The missing link, if you will, or the last big piece of the puzzle. And if Israel doesn't like it, fuck them. They don't run the world like they think they do.

Incosian · 02-09-2005, 10:07 AM

Well stated OFKU0.

If there are terrorists involved in this, they are the Israeli's who continually encroach on Palestenian land, force them out of their homes, bully their civilians, and even unneccessarily kill them. Sure, many Palestinians hate Israel...but they have valid reasons. It is always a two-way street. To the Israeli's, the Palestenians are terrorists. I like to think of them as freedom fighters, and Sharon's Israel a fascist regime.

And sure, you bash the old Palestinian authority, but Yasser Arafat earned the Nobel Peace Prize...and with justification.

I am not anti-semetic. I am merely anti-Israel, like many in the world.

roachboy · 02-09-2005, 10:10 AM

on this, i am waiting to see how things play out.
i would probably be more optimistic if sharon was not in power, if likud was not in power--but things are as they are, so.
i cant help but think that this is all a type of condy rice-period window dressing, however.

Incosian · 02-09-2005, 10:15 AM

Yes, I am also skeptical of what will come out of this, but we will see.

Mojo_PeiPei · 02-09-2005, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incosian

Well stated OFKU0.

If there are terrorists involved in this, they are the Israeli's who continually encroach on Palestenian land, force them out of their homes, bully their civilians, and even unneccessarily kill them. Sure, many Palestinians hate Israel...but they have valid reasons. It is always a two-way street. To the Israeli's, the Palestenians are terrorists. I like to think of them as freedom fighters, and Sharon's Israel a fascist regime.

And sure, you bash the old Palestinian authority, but Yasser Arafat earned the Nobel Peace Prize...and with justification.

I am not anti-semetic. I am merely anti-Israel, like many in the world.

Where was this Palestinian land? There never was an established sovereign Palestinian state. THen the Palestinians further fucked up by allowing Arab armies in to crush the Israeli state, serves them right that the Arab's got the snot kicked out of them and The Palestinians are left without out a country.

The Israeli's have as much a right to be there as the Palestinians, It's their home too. Furthermore, I think it's false people are all up in arms about the occupation. Nobody really seemed to care when the Palestinians were displaced and mistreated in Gaza and the West Bank under Egypt and Jordan, there was no uproar. Then you get the Arabs picking a fight, again, getting stomped, again. Israel tried to negotiate the territories, but the Arab's never wanted peace, they wanted the total destruction of Israel.

Also Arafat may have deserved the Noble prize for his work for what he was awarded. That doesn't negate the fact that he was a murderous terrorist who perpetuated the suffering of his own people. He is no hero to the Palestinians.

Freedom fighters don't shoot up cars with women and children, or blow up school buses, or commuter buses with people trying to go to work. Cowards do that.

oktjabr · 02-09-2005, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

Where was this Palestinian land? There never was an established sovereign Palestinian state.

Land and state are hardly synonymous. To go further, I don't think it is always easy to take concepts like "sovereign state" that derive from european way of thought and discourse of 18th - 19th century nationalism and apply them unaltered to the historical situation of some other culture.

02-09-2005, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Freedom fighters don't shoot up cars with women and children, or blow up school buses, or commuter buses with people trying to go to work. Cowards do that.

That's precisely what the Israeli's did when they were trying to get rid of the British protecting forces after WWII. If it wasn't so ugly, it would almost be ironic.

Mojo_PeiPei · 02-09-2005, 11:17 AM

Yeah, only you negate to say that the context of that was a civil war. Two way street?

Incosian · 02-09-2005, 11:25 AM

Whew...here we go.

Quote:

Where was this Palestinian land? There never was an established sovereign Palestinian state.

Like the previous poster said, land and state are entirely different concepts. How could there have been a state? There were NO states before Britain created them (they were provinces under the Ottoman Empire), and Palestine was referred to as Syria Palæstina.

To adress your point further, please read the following:

Quote:

In 1917, the British captured the region from the Ottoman Empire and called it Palestine/Eretz Israel (both had equal status as official names), after the longstanding Roman name for the area, Syria-Palestina and historical Palestine name Eretz Israel. This came at a time of renewed interest in the country among the European powers, Arab nationalists, and Jewish Zionists, who sought to reestablish their ancient homeland there. Competition between the latter two groups came to a head immediately after World War II, when Zionist claims gained greater urgency after the murder of almost six million Jews in the Holocaust. The Zionists demanded an independent homeland to absorb the Jewish refugees from Europe; the local Palestinian Arab population, today known as just Palestinians, argued that they played no role in the Holocaust, so the refugee problem should not be resolved at their expense.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

That is the Palestinian land I refer to...the land Israel now currently controls and viciously segregates from the neighboring communities.

Quote:

THen the Palestinians further fucked up by allowing Arab armies in to crush the Israeli state, serves them right that the Arab's got the snot kicked out of them and The Palestinians are left without out a country.

Do you know the context of what you speak? The British government is to blame for this as well. They proposed the area of Palestine become divided into a "Jewish" and an "Arab" state. The local Palestinians and other surrounding Arab countries (Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon, countries created by the Brits) rejected this proposal, while the Jewish population accepted it. One of the stipulations of that proposal was cooperation from BOTH sides, not a unilateral effort by the Jews...
The result was the creation of a Jewish state in the heart of many Arabs' homeland (containing one of the most holy cities in Islam).

The Arabs defended themselves from a British-sanctioned occupation of their land.

Quote:

The Israeli's have as much a right to be there as the Palestinians, It's their home too.

This is a much larger discussion, but regardless of whether or not the land *originally* belonged to them, the Jewish community had no right to evict the Palestinians from their home.

Quote:

Then you get the Arabs picking a fight, again, getting stomped, again. Israel tried to negotiate the territories, but the Arab's never wanted peace, they wanted the total destruction of Israel.

No. While the Arab Palestinians certainly used violent aggression, the Israeli's were no less guilty. They also had a "terrorist" organization named Etzel, and did not further the peace process like you suggest. In another light, two wrongs don't make a right, if you want to view what happened as 'wrong'. This all occurred during the Great Uprising from 1936-39 (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...e_of_Palestine).

Some of the more militant Jews even advocated an alliance with Nazi Germany and Italy, believing it would further their cause in the Palestinian region.

Even when the state of Israel was finally created, the majority of the people in the region were Arab Palestinians.

Quote:

Freedom fighters don't shoot up cars with women and children, or blow up school buses, or commuter buses with people trying to go to work. Cowards do that.

It depends how you look at it. Some believe this is the most effective way to be heard by the international community (I don't personally). This is another issue where the Israeli's are just as 'guilty' as the Arabs. There are plenty of news articles every day about Israeli soldiers taking down harmless targets, such as women and children.

Manx · 02-09-2005, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

Where was this Palestinian land? There never was an established sovereign Palestinian state. THen the Palestinians further fucked up by allowing Arab armies in to crush the Israeli state, serves them right that the Arab's got the snot kicked out of them and The Palestinians are left without out a country.

The Israeli's have as much a right to be there as the Palestinians, It's their home too. Furthermore, I think it's false people are all up in arms about the occupation. Nobody really seemed to care when the Palestinians were displaced and mistreated in Gaza and the West Bank under Egypt and Jordan, there was no uproar. Then you get the Arabs picking a fight, again, getting stomped, again. Israel tried to negotiate the territories, but the Arab's never wanted peace, they wanted the total destruction of Israel.

Also Arafat may have deserved the Noble prize for his work for what he was awarded. That doesn't negate the fact that he was a murderous terrorist who perpetuated the suffering of his own people. He is no hero to the Palestinians.

Freedom fighters don't shoot up cars with women and children, or blow up school buses, or commuter buses with people trying to go to work. Cowards do that.

Suffice it to say, I disagree with pretty much all of that analysis. But the one aspect that hasn't been hashed to death is this one:

Quote:

Freedom fighters don't shoot up cars with women and children, or blow up school buses, or commuter buses with people trying to go to work. Cowards do that.

Forget whether they are freedom fighters or not - they most certainly are not cowards. Those acts are only cowardly if there was another hostile action which would produce a beneficial result to their cause. There is no other hostile action they can perform which would produce such a result. These are acts of desperation - not cowardice. They are effective, they are not easy, there are no other options. It is a grave error to misunderstand this point.

KMA-628 · 02-10-2005, 06:24 PM

It lasted two days...

Honestly, longer than I expected.

Too bad the people who want peace can't stop the people who don't.

LINK

02-08-2005, 04:48 AM	#2 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	Now we get to see if they really want peace. Up until now it hasn't looked like it. Maybe something productive will come out of this, but i doubt it. Does anyone REALLY expect to see an independent Palestinian state by the end of this decade? Withdrawl from areas is one thing, complete independence is something else. This is all a good step in the right direction, but it seems every time these two parties take one step in the right direction they end up taking two steps back the following week. The Palestinian territory not being contiguous would suck, thats where a bunch of problems comes in. But if Michigan can do it the Palestinians can do it. They may not like it, but it can be done. Its certainly not worth fighting over. __________________ We Must Dissent.

02-08-2005, 05:13 AM	#3 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	It would seem we are back to the beginning of the process Clinton started. To this day I dont fully understand what derailed the progress made at that time. I am hopeful, but not overly optimistic of this development. Still.........it is better than nothing. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

02-08-2005, 05:25 AM	#4 (permalink)
C4 Diesel Crazy Location: Troy, NY	I think a large part of the difference from the Clinton years is the Palestinian leadership. Now they have a democracy, then they had a military dictatorship. Look at the track records of the two typesof government and you'll find democracys to be much more engaging in diplomacy and less inclined to violence. At this stage of the game, I think a Palestinian state is easily possible within the next 5 years. Not only do I think that a Palestinian state would be good for the Palestinians... it would be VERY good for the United States. The fundamentalist muslim world will be significantly less hostile towards us once we stop taking sides in Israel vs Palestine - which will happen because there will be no such conflict anymore. __________________ C4 to your door, no beef no more...

02-08-2005, 08:18 PM	#5 (permalink)
drakers Psycho Location: IOWA	Hamas is going to be the problem with this cease-fire. They don't seem to care about anything but what they want (and they don't seem to want any compromise). I hope the Palestinian government can see Hamas for what they really are, a bunch of selfish bastards that really don't care about peace for their community. Were talking about land not human lives (innocent ones I might add). Hopefully something good can come out of this mess. __________________ Friends don't shake hands, friends 'gotta HUG!

02-08-2005, 08:30 PM	#7 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Drakers is right, if anything this will lead to more problems, especially has the state of Palestine emerges and becomes more and more corporeal. The terrorist group Hamas's stated goal is the destruction of Israel, well actually the PLO's charter says the same thing to this day, regardless of what Abbas does, they will fuck it up. The only reason Hamas will ever agree to a cease fire is to secure weapons and funds, and so Israel doesn't launch any missles through their windsheilds when they are rolling around. The problem is Hamas will still terrorize, Israel will have no choice to move in, because the PA has proven time and time again they are both unwilling and unable to do anything about it. Then you have Al Aqsa which is actually a shadow arm of the PA, what happens when they pull some shit? I see tanks in Gaza. (If)When the Palestinian state emerges, there will be a problem. No longer will Israel be occupying territory, they will be invading a sovereign nation, and I will say good riddance. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

02-08-2005, 08:23 PM	#6 (permalink)
mojodragon Darth Mojo Location: Right behind you...	Call me skeptical, but I don't see it making much of a difference. Didn't Clinton negotiate a cease fire, and the underlings just kept fighting? Instead of it being gov't sanctioned military strikes, the violence is just going to be from "insurgent groups" or "terrorist cells". Killing by any other name is still killing.

02-08-2005, 09:32 PM	#8 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	i think that the establishment of a palestinian state is the only way to peace or resolution. as mojo pointed out, it's hard to make peace when major components of one side exists to destroy the other. to some palestinian militants... the goals aren't oriented to provide stability for their own people, but to destroy another. there really can be no lasting peace while this movement exists. hopefully this ceasefire is a sign that abbas is getting his house in order. a formalized palestinian state recognized by the israeli government without border disputes is the only way to bring shape to this amorphous conflict. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

02-08-2005, 09:40 PM	#9 (permalink)
squirrelyburt Crazy Location: Central Wisconsin	How can you say Clinton was the author of this?? They have been having pointless summits from President to President for as long as I can recall. Ford, Carter, all of them. Now that the murderer Arafat is dead, we'll see how it goes. Hamas already has said they will continue to resist. __________________ If you've ever felt there was a reason to be afraid of the dark, you were right.

02-08-2005, 09:48 PM	#10 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I hope they don't brake my heart again. I'm praying that this will be the time when it sticks. There can be peace. There has to be a possible peace between the Palestinians and Isrealis.

02-09-2005, 10:07 AM	#12 (permalink)
Incosian Upright Location: In my head.	Well stated OFKU0. If there are terrorists involved in this, they are the Israeli's who continually encroach on Palestenian land, force them out of their homes, bully their civilians, and even unneccessarily kill them. Sure, many Palestinians hate Israel...but they have valid reasons. It is always a two-way street. To the Israeli's, the Palestenians are terrorists. I like to think of them as freedom fighters, and Sharon's Israel a fascist regime. And sure, you bash the old Palestinian authority, but Yasser Arafat earned the Nobel Peace Prize...and with justification. I am not anti-semetic. I am merely anti-Israel, like many in the world.

02-09-2005, 10:10 AM	#13 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	on this, i am waiting to see how things play out. i would probably be more optimistic if sharon was not in power, if likud was not in power--but things are as they are, so. i cant help but think that this is all a type of condy rice-period window dressing, however. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

02-09-2005, 10:15 AM	#14 (permalink)
Incosian Upright Location: In my head.	Yes, I am also skeptical of what will come out of this, but we will see.

02-09-2005, 11:17 AM	#18 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Yeah, only you negate to say that the context of that was a civil war. Two way street? __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

02-10-2005, 06:24 PM	#21 (permalink)
KMA-628 ....is off his meds...you were warned. Location: The Wild Wild West	It lasted two days... Honestly, longer than I expected. Too bad the people who want peace can't stop the people who don't. LINK