Jinn

They ALREADY have that reason! After they're 18, they're given the opportuniy to "help decide major issues that effect them." A lot of high school seniors are already 18, so I'm not sure what moving it back a few years would really accomplish is increasing attention span in school. That's an entirely different issue, one related more to poor parenting than when they get to vote, in my opinion. I paid attention in my civics and government classes, and it had nothing to do with how soon I'd be able to vote. Add in the fact that major elections are on two/four year intervals, and you'd basically be providing nothing they won't get when they graduate, anyway.

It becomes more and more clear that you want this becuase you really wish that Bush hadn't been elected. I'm totally with you, but I think that you'd actually make the situation worse. Conservative families typically have many more children (Bible belt, anyone?)

I don't think knowing that there are three branches of the government, "checks and balances," and two Houses of Congress really does much to "inform" voters on the issues. I don't see how things learned in school about the Gov of the US really change political opinion at all.

No, but I was raised in a family that valued individual opinion and expression. I'm not naive enough to believe that this is common, or even close to the majority. Ask Fred Phelp's family if they'd vote the same way their Daddy does.

That's great, except this is a sociological concern and not a pyschological concern. I really don't see how any expertise in the world could help tell us how future people will behave in a society. It's a guess. Maybe an educated guess, but a guess nonetheless.

Says who? Did you just make this up, becuase you thought you were good at keeping secrets from YOUR parentS? You've got to consider the massive amount of people you're talking about, and how different they all are.

Becuase I don't live in the vacuum that you seem to think this idea will be implemented in. It's much more sensible t believe that parents will attempt to manipulate their children then not. What if, for argument's sake, you conceded that all parents would maliciously manipulate their children to exact a vote in their favor. Can't you see how terrible that would be? If you then work backwards out in percentages, what percent of parents would have to be doing it for it to still be a bad idea?

You didn't live in my house. Being locked in your room without dinner for being a "bad boy," and not being allowed to leave until you apologize is a denial of due process, and is imprisonment. My freedom of movement is denied, as are .. well, the rest of my Consitutional rights. A minor child is considered in the custody of parents at all times, and ALL of their Constitutional rights can be suspended by that parent at any time, provided no direct mental or physical abuse can be demonstrated.

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Willravel

What would it accomplish? How about multiplying high school voters by as much as 8? Having also paid attention in civics and government, I found that throughout history people have had power taken away from them by more powerful forces and that a democracy, or in our case a democratic constitutional republic, is intended to ensure that everyone can take part in being responsible for their nation.
I made this decision long before Bush was elected. It came to me originally when I was in middleschool and I realized that only people outside of schools were allowed to vote on school funding. My citing presidential decisions was and is only to show that the argument that children should vote because they may vote irresponsibly is a double standard. I would want them to have the opportunity to vote responsibly instead of taking their opportunity because they may not.
I had a few good teachers. They didn't just teach me the bare-bone facts, they shared modern politics. There were some very important lessons to be learned.
Fortunately for everyone, there is only one Fred Phelps. Yes, some parents might make some effort to influence their child's voting, hypothetically, but to what degree would that assumption be reasonable? How many parents do you know that would actively seek to force their child to vote for someone or something? I can't think of any.
Child psychology and an understanding of the family unit is of pinnacle importance to the issue.
You mean like going to school and taking whole classes on child psychology? Lying is an easy way to deal with the demands that parents and other authority figures put on them without having to do the honest work. A such, it starts at a young age, and can continue on into and even past adolescence. The longer one lies to someone, the better that they usually become. As such, it's not unreasonable to assume that teenagers will already have the experience of lying to their parents that's necessary to get away with it. And without corroboration, or any clues as to whom the child voted for, the parent will just have to take the child at his or her word.
Not being fed as punishment is considered to be child abuse, and your parents could have gotten in trouble for that. I hardly see how soldiers being quartered or getting unfair bail could have possibly been done by your parents. You're being melodramatic.

Cynthetiq

sorry you pulled that multiplying voters number 8 out of your ass.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

Sorry you missed the "as much as" because you were so excited to write "ass". I don't blame you, it's a fun word.

Ustwo

So you are saying they SHOULD be tried as adults?

Seriously the radical lefts desire on this is simple. They want more easy to influence voters who their unrealistic policies sound good to, and no group is easier to influence in this regard than children who have absolutely no idea who the economy works.

Wrap it as you like Will, but the goal is a more leftest government through the use of children.

Its not voter rights is exploitation.

Edit:And I'll add letting children decide school funding?

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Cynthetiq

No, as much as... so even 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. Any of those numbers, you've pulled them out of your ass. In other words, you have NO IDEA what the hell you are saying about how much it multiplies anything.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

Actually I did have to go back to two posts in each thread to clarify my position seeing as how these two stances are seemingly in opposition. To be totally clear, teenagers should be able to vote because they aren't represented in government, but they should be judged based on their development, and few 14 year olds have the cognitive developments of their adult counterparts.
I'm not with anyone. I'm representing my own beliefs, and that have nothing to do with exploiting anyone. As for unrealistic policies, I believe that the right has that market in a monopoly right now. The left could present legislation to put a man on the sun and it'd look tame in comparison to our foreign policy, economic policy, and the million and one other things that have gone to hell in the past 7 years. Bu why pay attention to that when you can bash the left for... um... well nothing really.
There's no warping, and your telepathic abilities leave much to be desired. What I find hilarious, though, is that you post things like this:
You, Ustwo, have become a conspiracy theorist, and not a very good one at that. At least I present evidence. You sit there barking unfounded assumptions.

Yes.

Cynthetiq

So de facto you are saying that people with lower cognitive abilities would be disenfanchised by your system of allowing this "judged based on their development" and NEVER be allowed to vote since you've removed the age requirement.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

I don't know how I can simplify the terms any more than I did, so I'll have to change them.

Would you shoot someone who is mentally retarded in the face if he took something from your house? No? Why not? Is it because they may not have known any better? There you have it, so far as the trying a child as an adult thread.

Did you know that mentally disabled people can vote? There you go.

Cynthetiq

????? What are you teaching koans via yoda?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

You've lost me.

Jinn

And you've lost me.

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel