Jinn

Bodyhammer did you read the article about RAPING AND KILLING? Or did you miss that part.. ? It's far more than funny pictures, thats just all we're allowed to see.

And yes, we all know that the terrorists raped and murdered and tortured civilians. That argument is called a straw man. A straw man argument seeks to draw the argument away from the isuse at hand (american mistreatment of prisoners) with a seemingly related issue (iraqi mistreatement of prisoners). You're allowed to use that argumentation strategy, but it does nothing to justify the US treatment. "These guys did something bad, ours wasn't nearly as bad" is what your argument says, without addressing what WE did bad.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

alansmithee

What proof is there of this? Some unnamed "Republican Senator". Yeah, that screams credibility. Why, I think based soley on this unsubstantiated, unnamed claim that the whole Bush administration should be arrested /sarcasm.



This is really annoying. If you want to lecture people on proper debate form, at least get your terms right. That is not a straw man argument, a straw man argument is deliberately attacking an argument or claim from a weak direction. A straw man argument doesn't seek to divert from one topic to another, it seeks address a topic from a weaker point than the optimum. If anything, his argument would be a circumstantial ad hominem.

And as for that argument, I have yet to see any proof of wrongdoing that would warrant the outcry that liberals make. There was one verified area of humiliating acts being performed on prisoners (not torture) at abu ghraib, and some other issues of harrassment at gitmo (again, not torture). Again, anyone thinking there are "atrocities" being commintted wholesale by the US armed forces has no logical reason for doing so, and believes that because of personal adgenda, not due to evidence.

Pacifier

and since the administration blocked the release of the pictures we might never know. Lets hope the court forces the administration to release the pics.

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

Dyze

You know that the pictures will never be released. This incident will be "forgotten".
It make me sick how some people are trying to argue. You cannot use nor justify techniques (namely torture) of a society that you are trying to destroy! That puts you on the same level and deserving to be destroyed.
And, come on, of course torture labs were found. History is written by the winners. If the Iraq would overrun the US, future generations would always think that the US was the biggest evil on earth. Just because you don´t here about cruel actions by the US military on US soil or not does not mean that they don´t happen.

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Knowing is not enough, we must apply.
Willing is not enough, we must do.

Dyze

If you would educate yourself you would understand that Nazideutschland (which you are undoubtedly refering to) and Deutschland are two different countries.

__________________
Knowing is not enough, we must apply.
Willing is not enough, we must do.

Ustwo

So in other words Bush = Saddam?

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

tecoyah

I am so freakin sick of this metality....Ustwo, why not try to debate rather than instigate a flamewar. If You Cannot At Least Try To Respond To Fellow Members With Intellegent Conversation.....I Will Begin To Delete/Edit Your Posts.

Perhaps this will help.....

From your statement above, I get the impression you consider the United States on par with Pre-war Iraq.

Hmmm....seems a bit more civil, maybe even less likely to get a negative response in return, or would that spoil your fun?

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

joshbaumgartner

I agree, although if a court makes reasonable concessions to allow the presence of the defendants and witnesses, and they decline to attend, then there is not much more one can expect the courts to do.

Ustwo

Edit: Don't want to even bother.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

daswig

Well, the "meathooks" at Plotsensee are still there...and so convenient to Berlin!



From a legal perspective, the idea of "Universal Jurisdiction" is facially preposterous, and certainly is against all American Jurisprudence on the topic. This is a soapbox for the Left, nothing else. And I agree that if Germany keeps this up, America WILL become angry eventually.

daswig

So you're saying a "show trial" without the defendant being present, much less contributing to his or her defense, is OK? Please cite your rationale for that. Thanks.

daswig

I think that such a court would first need to establish that they have the jurisdiction to try the US government under German law. That's a deal-killer right there.

daswig

Of course they don't...because a fair number of leftists support the insurgents.

America = bad for using sleep deprivation

Insurgents = good for sawing off people's heads on video.

What's so pathetically funny is that the people that the idiot-fringe far left are supporting are the ones who treat women as chattel, think of homosexuality as a crime punishable by stoning to death or hanging, and who want to eradicate the free press.

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/07/321936.shtml

Warning: This link contains pics of homosexuals in distress, shortly before they were executed for being gay.

Pacifier

I'm talking about the american court here, the ACLU has requested the release of the pictures under the "freedom of information act"

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

daswig

I think you'll find that FOIA does not apply to things which have a national security exemption, and such photographs most certainly would.

host

daswig, please back your statement about leftists "supporting insurgents" with examples of Americans who support enemies of the U.S. who are not natives resisting on their own home territory, with small arms and improvised explosives, against an illegal <b>(see bottom of post)</b> American military invasion/occupation force and it's subcontractors.

As to who initiated the advocacy for the "beheadings" (it's been awhile since I've had the opportunity to counter the US administration's apologists and propagandists with these "shocking" examples of "our side's" track record....)
[quote]

daswig

Due to your post, is there really a need for me to do that? If you insist, I suggest you "take a gander" at sites such as Buzzflash, Democratic Underground, or just listen to Cindy Sheehan. Or, you can simply look at anybody who refers to the insurgents in Iraq as "freedom fighters".