Mobo123

The Bush administration has argued that assisted suicide is not a "legitimate medical purpose" and that doctors take an oath to heal patients, not help them die.

While not as prominent as abortion, the issue is an important one for conservative Christians, who helped President Bush win a second term last week. The government waited until Tuesday, the final day possible, to file paperwork at the high court.

Oregon's law, known as the Death With Dignity Act, lets patients with less than six months to live request a lethal dose of drugs after two doctors confirm the diagnosis and determine the person's mental competence to make the request.


Let's see, first stem cells , now state passed legislation?? I'm afraid Bush's moral fiber is gonna hurt alot of people... Humm abortion is next mark my words.... At least we'll be able to say a prayer before a football game..

Rekna

how can people think it is ok to execute someone who doesn't want to die but won't let people who want to die end their suffering?

I guess lethal injection is only good if it is used for revenge.

alto92

exactly, rekna. i happen to fall pretty conservative on some of these issues - abortion, embryonic stem cell research, and assisted suicide (against all, though i'm not too sure where i fall legislation-wise) - but this horrible hipocracy is sadly typical of these right wing christian conservatives. either you respect all forms of human life or you don't...for me it's as simple as that. what kind of bullshit is the death penalty, anyway? we have them locked up, why do we need to kill them? because it costs us money to keep them in jail? to me, still not worth the moral price of murder. to deter others from committing those crimes? people who murder others have little respect for life, themselves. of course they don't want to die, but life isn't the same for them as it is you and me - it's ineffectual, especailly considering that its still murder, state sanctioned or not.

Xenomorph

Legalized assisted suicide can lead to some sticky situations. I've heard many, many horror stories come out of Denmark, where it's legal. Doctors "euthanizing" patients who they've decided don't have a chance without always consulting them...

Under Oregon's law, ideally, that wouldn't happen. I agree that anyone that holds the sanctity of human life in high regard (not limited to just "conservative Christians") should be opposed to the death penalty as well as euthanasia and abortion. I find it unfortunate that Mr. Bush seems to think there's something really great about the death penalty, but I'm glad that he opposes euthanasia.

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Mephisto2

Actually, it's considerably cheaper to keep them in prison for the length of their lives than to execute them.

If you want the references, just ask.


Mr Mephisto

Mephisto2

I'd be interested in some references to support this.


Mr Mephisto

thefictionweliv

...

Irishsean

Wait, your saying Bush just now decided this?

AFAIK, this has alwasy been against the law in the US.

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guy44

No, it has been a state issue, which is why the law was able to pass in Oregon. And that stuff about Denmark, I find that highly dubious and the lack of sources makes me question that assertion. Just looking for documented proof.

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Ustwo

If you want to die, have some balls and do it yourself *most of them can*.

It's hard enough your doctor has to try to save you while you are dying, but then you ask him to be your executioner as well.

I came THIS close to going into oncology, and thats a horrible enough field as it is without killing your patients on purpose.

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guy44

Yes, Ustwo, most people can commit suicide all on their lonesome. But

1) Sometimes a person wants to but can't quite bring themselves to do so
2) Many people can't. They may be paraplegic or incredibly weak and literally can't perform the required actions to do so

It is true, however, that it can be utterly unfair to ask a doctor to help you die. It puts them in a position they may not have asked for, including the knowledge that even if they do not help, their patient may actively be trying to kill themselves. This is an important aspect of euthenasia that needs to be taken into account when states decide whether or not to pass such laws.

For the record, I'm not pro-euthenasia, but rather conflicted over it, undecided. I do not think, however, that the federal government should be banning states from passing euthenasia laws.

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"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

j8ear

I tend to agree with Ustwo...this coddled society of whiners that insists not only on a right to die but further a right to have someone else do the killing.

That is patently rediculous, especially in light of the hippocratic oath all MDs swear to. That being to above all else DO NO HARM.

I fully support someone's right to kill themselves, but balk at the right to die. Those are two different proposals.

This issue is a little different, and if weren't for the federal governments (through the FDA) control of drugs and how they can be administered this wouldn't be a problem. As the laws exist now, the feds are fully capable of holding ANY MDs ass to the fire for administering drugs with intent to terminate life.

We need to overturn these laws if the pro-assisted suicide camp is going to get anywhere logically. Unless of course the courts devine a right which doesn't exist, as so often happens.

imho,

-bear

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JumpinJesus

Just how does one deny someone a right to die? Force them to live forever?

I'm also not too keen on calling those suffering from a terminal illness coddled whiners.

One might argue that forcing someone to endure immense pain even though death is iminent as doing harm.

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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Ustwo

If you can't bring youself to do it maybe suicide isn't the answer?

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

j8ear

I knew that would follow. Some how killing someone is NOT DOING harm. How freakishly absurd. Compassionate and reasonable pain medication (also feverishly under assault by Ashcroft, under the guise of the 'war on drugs') is the answer here, sir. Plain and simple. NOT KILLING someone. Ever.

Of course your correct about the 'the right to die,' being ludicrous in it's connotation, that an alternative exists

'Right to die' is the PC moniker peddled by the movement, however, not mine.

-bear

less then contributory comment removed.

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It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

ravenradiodj

My attitude is, it's my life, and if I choose to end it, it's noone's damned business but mine and my family's. Laws against suicide make even less sense the the federal laws making it illegal to make contact with alien life forms - and yes, there is such a law....

JumpinJesus

I'm not sure why you call my view freakishly absurd. Some people would choose to exit this life of sound mind, fully in control of their faculties and being able to decide at what moment they may die. You would deny them this because it might mean they die sooner? To disagree is freakishly absurd? Why? It is an argument of quality of life over quantity. Those who argue in favor of euthanasia are not fringe PC faithful out of touch with mainstream America. They are often patients suffering from terminal illness and their loved ones. I do not bevieve it is freakishly absurd to argue that the quality of one's life should take precedence over quantity.

We may be arguing this point from different standpoints. Philosophically, who decides when a person dies? The state? The individual? God, for those who believe?

As far as the hippocratic oath is concerned, the ancient version is the one to which you refer. Here is a take on the oath and how it applies today. As you read, you find that there are a variety of modern oaths, only 14% of which forbid euthanasia. The ancient version also deals with doctors having sexual relations with slaves. This is given as an example of how the ancient version is not entirely in line with modern society.

Concerning your comments regarding access to medication, I agree with you. Patients and doctors need to be allowed access to all possible treatments. If they were, there would undoubtedly be far fewer patients willing to choose assisted suicide as an end to their suffering. However, I do not believe that the government should be the body that decides when a person dies. I don't trust them enough with that decision. The only ones who should get to decide that are me and nature.

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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

pan6467

Look if I have months to live and I choose to go to my doctor and ask him to painlessly end my life, I should have that right. It's not in their oath to "SAVE" lives it is as quoted on here "Do no harm", yet isn't keeping a terminal case that wants to die but may lack the physical ability doing harm.

I argue the quality of life is of more value than just life or a painful dying life with no hope. If I am in great pain and I wish my doctor to end my life and save my family the medical bills of my being in the hospital or nursing home for another 6 months I should have that right. No government should dictate to me how I should die, when I should die, or what they constitute as dignity for dying. To me it has more to do with how much the hospitals can get from someone instead of what that person feels is best.

And this case of assisted suicides could feasibly have serious ramifications on living wills and people on life support who chose not to be. It's a great way for hospitals to keep making the bucks while the patients would rather be left to die.

If a doctor doesn't want to do it himself or feels it is morally wrong for him to do it, then he should at least be able to prescribe whatever maybe needed and the directions on how to. If the doctor cannot do that then there should be referrals available.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

alto92

sure, mephisto - i'll take some references. i'm assuming it has something to do with paperwork and lawyers and such?

Holo

I just wanted to point out to those who say ppl should have the balls to commit suicide themselves that fundies or religious ppl view suicide as a one way ticket to hell, purgatory, Sheol, or whatever they believe. As much as I dislike fundies I support their rights to end their suffering while staying true to their beliefs by being euthanized. If a doctor ends your life and even if it is murder, you don't go to hell for being murdered. No one should have to suffer a horrible death because of their beliefs or other inability to make their final exit. We can't know what those ppl are going thru...I'm sure their pain is something a woman in labor doesn't envy.

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Ustwo

The laws against suicide follow a pretty good rational.

Most people who want to commit suicide are mentally disturbed.

If there was no law then there would be no way to help them or stop them.

Now maybe someday we will not care, but for now at least, the law states that life should not be thrown away.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

JumpinJesus

The laws against suicide do not necessarily stop mentally disturbed people from killing themselves. And I'm not trying to be facetious by asking, how do you prosecute someone who has broken that law?

To me, there is a stark difference between someone who is depressed who wants to take his or her own life and someone who has a terminal illness who wants to end his or her suffering by hastening an already impending death.

I think the point is being missed that those in favor of euthanasia are not cold-hearted bastards wanting to alleve overpopulation but are often loved ones heart-stricken with the suffering they witness and want to help fulfill the wishes of the dying.

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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Ustwo

You don't, but it means you can legally keep them from commiting suicide. As most suicides are due to depression or other treatable conditions.

If being mentally ill means you are not responsible for a crime, likewise it means you are not responible enough to control your own life.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

pan6467

If I am dying from lung cancer in the hospital/ nursing home/ or under a visiting nurse's care, in totally unbelievable pain, morphine just doesn't work anymore; the doctors say I have at least 6 more months of this pain and there is nothing they can do; I am mentally ill (by what you are saying) if I want to commit suicide or ask someone to euthanize me? The only productive thing I am doing is running up medical bills in this case.

Excuse me, but when our pets suffer and cannot live a life without pain, do we not most times have a vet put them to sleep? So if I choose to want to die, why should I not be allowed?

Look, the mentally ill suicides are a tad different and can't even be compared. Personally, I believe if someone wants to die let them, I find it pathetic we have to have a law telling people they have to live, I always have. But a vast majority of suicide attempts are cries for help. Those that want to kill themselves and are truly mental, will do it.

Comparing terminally ill, life with dignity situations to those that are temporarily depressed or mentally ill is like comparing Charles Manson to George Patton.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

kutulu

I don't really want to get very involved in this thread but unless you are a PETA person you can't make a comparison between euthanising pets and assisted suicide.

pan6467

Maybe to the vast majority but I can see a non- PETA comparison quite easily. If my chihuahua, Dinky, is in pain and not eating and suffering and the vet says that she needs to go, I would be as deeply hurt as if it were any other member of my family, but I would do what it took to give her peace. If I were dying and I were in pain 24/7 and there was no hope, then I would choose to be at peace.

I truly don't see a difference in a situation where a person loves their pet as family and putting either to sleep if they are suffering and the family member states they wish to die now and have no will to continue.

Pets a lot of times may stop eating to let you know they are ready to die, yet when a terminal patient does this, we, "as humane indivduals" will cram feeding tubes into them.

So you tell me now, why I should not see similarities. Because I do, after all, man is nothing more and nothing less than an animal himself and for centuries in many cultures people were allowed to commit suicide for any number of reasons(and in a lot of countries they are still allowed to)..... who are we to judge others and tell them they must live? That is between their God and them. I don't know the pain that cancer victim has lived with for the past year, and cannot go on. It is not my job to determine how much a pain, physical or mental a man has to take. Everyone has a breaking point and if a person reaches that point and they choose to end it all without hurting another then so be it.

May sound heartless and selfish, but I see forcing someone to live who truly wants to die as selfish, immoral and heartless. I don't get any closer to my spiritual heaven/nirvana/higher plane by judging any man on how they choose to die.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"