filtherton

How many dead iraqi civilians are worth one beheaded civilian contracter? Answer me that, and then tell me how they are any worse than our soldiers.

At least they have the courage to fight, how cushy is your armchair? This is the war you wanted, enjoy it while it lasts. It's going to be a long time before we'll be able to do it again.

Rdr4evr

Hmmm, a few beheadings compared to tens of thousands of civilian deaths, doesn't make for much of an argument. Let's not forget the torture at Abu Ghraib, or the recent murder of a wounded Iraqi caught on film, or all the other acts of murder by American troops that you always fail to mention. As for bombing of schools, well, American troops bomb schools and mosques as well, but lets not bring that up, after all, its the "terrorists" fault for hiding there.

Tarl Cabot

Now you're getting it!!!!

And for all who claim to support our soldiers, but condemn that Marine, I offer the following (emphasis in bold is mine):

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1282211/posts

Slandering Private Ryan – in Fallujah


By David D. Perlmutter


November 17, 2004

It's an irony that the week that some American television stations pulled "Saving Private Ryan" because of harsh language, many others aired parts of a video that purports to show an American Marine shooting a wounded and unarmed civilian in Fallujah.

The link between Steven Spielberg's fictional (but realistic) film about World War II and a real event in the Iraq war is a reminder that, with so few of us having combat experience or studying warfare in school, the historical context of modern combat needs to be explained better.

Television networks were responsible in that most of them edited the Fallujah images when, apparently, a Marine thought an Iraqi man was faking death and shot him in the head. But the incident also requires a detailed discussion (and visualization) of its historical context. The truth is that this is how you fight a war against an amoral terrorist enemy. Further, what that Marine did was commonplace in the history of America at war: if you condemn him, then you also attack the "greatest generation" veterans of World War II.

Take a famous scene from "Saving Private Ryan." At Normandy Beach, American soldiers, after terrible losses, finally knock out one enemy bunker with a flamethrower and Germans tumble out on fire, screaming in agony. "Let 'em burn," responds one GI without remorse. Witnessed from the comfort of our living room, it is a shocking statement and scene. But in the context of the film and of war it is understandable.


I show this clip regularly to my students and invite reactions. One young woman said, "I can imagine being so angry, so vengeful at the enemy that just killed your buddies that you don't care what happens to them." I would only add one factor to her analysis: uncertainty. In a study I conducted on police work, the most fearful thing about a cop's job, I felt, was that you never knew who would pull out a gun and who wouldn't. In a war against terrorists everybody is a potential combatant and every doorway a potential deathtrap.

American warriors of the past knew this. Michael Lee Lanning wrote in his account of "Vietnam, 1969: A Company Commander's Journal" that Viet Cong or North Vietnamese army fighters regularly feigned surrender, incapacitation or death in order to lure GIs into grenade or rifle range. Even the actual dead were booby-trapped. The average GI learned quickly to "shoot and throw grenades at the body" rather than risk enemy treachery. No surprise that war historian and analyst James F. Dunnigan estimated that, "Historically 50 percent of those surrendering [in war] do not survive the process."

In Iraq, American servicemen and women face insurgents who hide, store weapons and fight from hospitals, homes and religious places and from among civilians, booby-trap their own dead as well as those of our soldiers, disguise themselves as women and noncombatants, and, yes, fake surrender as a prelude to murder-suicide. Early in the war, British soldiers even reported insurgents picking up small children to use as human shields during a fire fight.

So what was that young Marine in Fallujah to do: wait until faking Iraqis blew him, his buddies and the camera crew up? He played it safe: he's alive, and so are the embedded journalists.

In fact, we can estimate that a sizable number of U.S. casualties in Iraq were because of the basic decency of the America soldier, sailor, Marine and flier.

That is the story that needs more reporting.

Prison scandals aside, the record of the American combatant for humanity even in the most chaotic circumstances is unequaled. In World War II, Japanese and German troops were often astonished at how well they were treated. Axis POWS in the United States, for example, were fed better food than found on the average (rationed) American civilian dinner plate. One German POW, asked about his experiences, commented that the smartest thing to do in war against America is to "get captured – you'll have it made." An exaggeration? Yes, but also the most important message for the world about our latter-day Private Ryans in Fallujah and elsewhere. If you want to fight America and die, then your wish will be fulfilled. If you want to live, surrender to American mercy.

For ourselves, we now have two generations of Americans whose only experiences of battle have been watching the news and movies and playing "Halo." Years ago I did a study of the pictorial depiction of warfare in high school history textbooks. Among my findings: actual grim combat received almost no attention. It was censored as being too disturbing for young minds. We need to upturn that illogic by teaching all Americans what combat entails: the good, the bad and the necessary.

host

I doubt that the observations displayed above provide much consolation to
the survivors of the dead and wounded Iraqis or of the Americans caused by
this "war of choice".
Pointless war......too many Americans steadfast in their cluelessness.

maestroxl

And now bringing to the discussion evidence of what we've been saying... we're not just the merciful, benign liberators of Iraq that many posters to this thread have been trying to portray:

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be the change you want

powerclown

What's done is done.

Fallujah had to be taken for elections to be held in January. Extraordinary steps are being taken to ensure insurgents don't flow back into the city. Look around for details, its quite interesting.

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The following is an excerpt from a Marine Lt. who fought in Fallujah, describing the experience.
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We have been really busy out here lately and therefore I haven't had the opportunity to write too many updates. Sorry.

As many of you know I have been involved in the Battle of Fallujah (Operation Phantom Fury) for the past few weeks. It has been the wildest experience of my time in the Marine Corps.

My Battalion was the Main Effort during the attack. We were given the Jolan District and the southern suburb we call "Queens." These two areas, without a doubt, were the insurgency stronghold in the city.

We cleared every house (3 times) (bulldozed over a hundred with a D-9) and faced the insurgents one-on-one. This is the way they preferred it. For these guys, there is no honor in being martyred by a Abrams Tank or a Bradley. They want the opportunity to take out an American Marine. That was fine with us!

We were led into the city by the Army's 2/7 Cavalry. They had the Tanks and Bradleys but only had about 90 dismounted troops who were capable of clearing out the small areas these guys hide. They did a great job though.

We have about 900 Marines in my Battalion. Every single guy performed like a seasoned professional and all did so with honor. They really gave it their all. 22 Marines in my Battalion gave their lives for our country during this fight and over 200 Marines earned the Purple Heart. Without a doubt, Third Battalion, First Marines (3/1) had the toughest mission for a reason. We did the dirty work no one else wanted to do. Thousands of dead insurgents will back me up on that statement.

We had been prepping for this fight for the past few months. We made numerous "feints" or false attacks into the southern portion of the city where all of their bunkers and fighting positions were located.

We would act like we were moving in for a large attack (with tanks, air strikes, lots of troops and trucks, etc...) and take pot shots at the city. After doing this a few times it was obvious they thought this was the direction we would do our major attack when the time was right. This was the side of the city that the Marines attacked back in April. Closer to the actual attack date, we dropped leaflets, passed messages over the radio, television and mosques speaker systems warning the "good citizens" to leave the city. Furthermore, we shut off all the electricity, water, cell phones, etc.. a few days prior to the attack. Finally, we continuously sonic boomed the city with jets at the speed of sound (this really pissed them off), played Rap/Rock 'n Roll Music and taunted them over loud speakers (this really! , really pisses them off!!) and began to shape targets with bombs and artillery.

We attacked the city from the North, under the darkness of night, and took them by surprise. For the first day or two the insurgents were exposed outside of their houses while trying to get to alternate fighting positions in the North of the city. Our pilots picked these guys off one by one. Once we entered the city and started to move south, the fighting was up close and personal and the use of mortars, artillery and air support was really limited. It is too complicated to know where all of the friendly units are within the city.

Booby trapped doors, car bombs, trip wires, dropping grenades through spider holes in the rooftops, pre-positioned machine guns, RPGs, snipers from the rooftops and minarets (mosque steeples), mortars, and land mines. These were their means of fighting (we encountered all these types at some point in time). They knew the houses they were hiding in and where the most complex hiding spots were located. The spots that gave them the best geometry to fire on us without us seeing them. These guys were smart, well trained and worst of all, willing to fight to the death. These were not the nickel and dimers we have been facing on the outskirts during the months leading up to this.

They knew how to fight us in an urban environment. They didn't challenge the tanks and armor and blended in the city without obvious signs to target. They would move house to house and fall back as we approached. They had weapons/ammo staged in every house. It was really complex.

After clearing the houses (over 3000) 3 different times and still finding insurgents, we just started to bulldoze the houses with D-9's.

It was awesome. They were not expecting it and it was hilarious to watch. I have some great photos. I have great photos of the whole attack. A ton of good stories too. You will have to buy me a beer or two to get the good ones out of me though.

Bored yet?

My Battalion is the unit that had Kevin Sites (NBC Reporter) attached.

We had the guy who allegedly murdered a wounded insurgent (I think he is faking it!). There is an investigation and I am sure the military will come to the correct conclusion. Not much else to comment on there.

We also found/searched Zarqawi's house (it was really shabby), tons of propaganda, money, weapons, ammo, torture chambers (sickos out here), videos of suicide bombings and beheadings, and the list goes on. We killed Chechnyians, Syrians, Moroccans, Saudis, you name it. This was the "show" for all of the weirdo terrorist/jihadist in the world. We found other things that are still classified and I hope will be made public someday soon. You wont believe it. Bottom line is, this was a necessary mission.

The day before we step off on the attack, my Battalion had the 1st Annual Ben Hur Thundering Third Chariot Race. You might have seen a few pictures on the news. It was the tension breaker we all needed.

We had confiscated some horses and carts a while back. We dressed up a number of Marines to look like chariot drivers (Spartans, Romans) and race the horses. These horses were in terrible shape. One was named "Ribs" -- for obvious reasons if you had seen the horse up close.

Eventually only one horse would race so we had time trials to determine the winner. It was hilarious. I will never forget it.

I am just back to get a shower and change of uniform (it's been 17 days) and then I am heading back into the city. We should be there until the elections are done with and then we can come back home. We haven't let the people back into Fallujah yet. That is when it will get interesting. I am sure we will see roadside bombs, car bombs and suicide bombers by the truck load. We are trying to clean up the dead bodies and clear the streets of rubble before they can come back in.

Rdr4evr

Wow, that is extremely sad, even after these poor souls complied with the Americans orders they were still shot dead, how unfortunate. Sadly, these same people are the ones that are going to be praised upon return; I think we have our perceptions on terrorism extremely mixed up.

May the innocent lives that were taken in away so fast (especially those of the children) for no reason rest in peace. Hopefully their killers will be brought to justice in some way shape or form, in this life or the next.


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