alansmithee

I have been seeing that all the networks I know of have Ohio going to Bush, by approximately 2%. Also, 99% of the precincts are reporting at this time. But the Kerry Campaign apparently isn't conceding. Now, if it was some 10,000 votes, or even 1% I could see not wanting to give in. In 2000, many states were within 5,000 votes. I think personally that with the errors that were exposed, checking that close of a margin is just fine. But Ohio is seemingly 120,000 ahead.

Why would democrats want to repeat the 2000 mess, when the margin is not even that close? Honestly, if they really care about what's best, they should know that challenging such a large margin not only makes the country look bad, but makes the Democrats themselves look awful petty.

And if it's really about all votes being counted, they should try to get rid of the electoral college, not complain about 2% of the vote in a large state. What do other people feel about dragging this election out while lawyers litigate for the next month?

I was hoping that whoever won would just be able to concede their defeat if the voting was reasonably accurate. But I know that if the Democrats try stalling in Ohio, I can't see myself voting for another Democrat ever. What do other people think about this?

irateplatypus

richard nixon... we could use your pre-watergate wisdom.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

daswig

they just don't want to admit that "Kerry '04: Because Treason is Patriotic!" was a really stupid campaign. Dean would have won, but the Dems threw it away when they nominated Kerry.

On the plus side, we no longer will have to listen to THK on the news.

alansmithee

I agree 100% with everything above. Kerry brought nothing to the campaign that any other candidate wouldn't have, and on top of that he had glaring weaknesses. I told alot of people that the Dems would have been better off to run a blank space over Kerry.

flstf

With 99% of the Ohio vote in, Bush is up over 150,000 now. Way too many to overcome. Plus he's up by 2 to 3% in the national popular vote. It looks like this is over but lets wait and see what the army of lawyers flying into Ohio come up with, LOL.

SecretMethod70

There's a difference between demanding recounts and saying you want to wait until all the votes that have been cast are count for the first time.

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Le temps détruit tout

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billege

An important difference. Waiting until the dust settles is prudent. Kicking it back up is a different story. Why don't we wait until we're there before we get our panties in a bunch?

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smooth

I think you are missing critical information. Unfortunately, a few posters after you didn't bother to inform you that over 200,000 provisional and absentee ballots still need to be counted. They won't be counted for over a week by Ohio law. This doesn't have squat to do with litigation.

What do you think about that?

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daswig

Well, considering that Kerry would have to take over 70% of those votes to have even a CHANCE of pulling it out, I'd say it's irrelevant. There's what, a 140,000 vote lead for Bush, and how many outstanding ballots? How many of the provisional ballots will be discarded as invalid?

If there were 5 million outstanding ballots, Bush's lead wouldn't mean squat. but that ain't the case.

smooth

There are 250K+ estimated ballots. 200K for certain. So he needs 70% of the votes to pull it out. What is your point other than to claim someone should concede a race without counting all the ballots?

damn it, I don't even know why I responded to this ridiculous post.

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

daswig

Well, let's see. Let's assume that Kerry did as well in the absentee and provisional ballots as he did in the location that he did the absolute best in for Ohio. In other words, let's assume that the ballots came from Kerry's absolute best, strongest place (we're assuming, so we can do that, even though the reality is far different). That's Cuyahoga, where he maxed out at 67% of the vote. Assuming that Kerry positively kicked ass, he STILL doesn't come up to the 70% needed, and that's also assuming that 100% of the provisional ballots were valid (trust me, they aren't, the only question is how many will be disqualified). Kerry's toast. Hell, he's more than toast. He's now officially breadcrumbs.

smooth

ok, I'll trust you.

since you are so obstinate and omniscient, ohio should not bother to count all its votes and kerry should just concede the race.

will that satisfiy you enough to stop pulling reasons from your ass as to why 250K residents of ohio should not have their votes counted?


edit: while I noticed rove declared ohio his without doubt, I take also take note that Bush hasn't come out in his motorcade to declare victory yet. instead the bush campaign, fox, and conservative bullies are trying to cowtow kerry into conceding defeat. oh yea, he's destroying the nation by going to bed tonight and waiting for a few states to finish counting their ballots--hopefully Fox' retardation isn't contagious.

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

TheFu

"hopefully Fox' retardation isn't contagious."

Going to bed after watching hours of Brit Hume and his panel and then waking up to the Fox and Friends crew is really a shock to the sytem.

pottsynz

Over here we get Fox and Friends as we're going to bed. Nightmares are forthcoming.

cthulu23

Dean couldn't have won in this country thanks to the infinite wisdom of the American electorate. Now that things look over for Kerry, cuold we lose the "treason" rhetoric? That ludicrous argument has always pissed me off and it feels like salt in the wound at this point. The American people have spoken, so how about we all shut up for a while, okay?

Averett

Until every last single vote is counted, why should any candidate concede?

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pan6467

Here's what I saw living in Ohio and you people judge.

NBC sends it to the local stations.... WKYC channel 3 is in Cuyhoga County BOE (Cleveland) saying that only 1/2 of Cleveland's votes had been counted and that at the rate it was going Kerry had nearly a 2-1 margin. They said that if that were to keep up it was going to be very close. That the votes still needing to be counted in Ohio were basicly North east Ohio counties and that it looked very favorably to Kerry, but it was way to early to say......... WKYC goes back to NBC..... within 3 minutes Brokaw calls OHIO as Bush even though Cleveland and Kerry's stronghold NE Ohio is maybe 50-75% counted.

An hour before that....... WEWS (ABC) reports that Kerry had taken the lead in Ohio and that the numbers had come straight from the Sec. of STate's office with NE Ohio being the only large uncounted area.

Yes, I wanted Kerry, but I do not want OHIO to be the next Florida.

Everyone in the state of Ohio that had anything to do with this election made sure that they made this a farce of an election. From throwing out registrations, to "challengers" to disobeying a federal judge telling Franklin and Knox counties to use paper ballots and yet forcing people to wait upto 6 hours after the polls close to use touchscreens made by Diebold who's president guaranteed a Bush win of Ohio.

Look I said it yesterday and have said it, best thing the Dems. could do is lose this election because in 4 years Bush will have us all truly fucked. But I have never seen a state that has set itself up to be a laughingstock for the elections. I can live with a Bush win may not like it, may be fearful of it but.... What I cannot fathom is the way Ohio has handled this election in the months before and the night of. To me they left themselves open to be questioned as to the legitimacy of the elections here.

Take it for what it is worth but I do wonder why from the very beginning Ohio has set itself up to be so scandal ridden and frought with such controversy.

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Bill O'Rights

Maybe they were jealous of all the attention that Florida got 4 years ago?

Ah, don't flatter yerself. It's not just Ohio. All states have thier election controversy. In certain districts in Omaha, the poll locations were moved, without any notice to the voters. Nobody in those districts knew where to go vote. They were just milling about where they were supposed to be. It's just that you're in it, so it seems larger. Plus the fact that it all hinges on Ohio doesn't help.

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Lebell

It's statistically unreasonable to believe that Kerry can pull it out in Ohio.

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SecretMethod70

88 precincts left (of thousands) to report their number of provisional ballots. So far, the number has not surpassed the margin of victory Bush has. I'm going to say now Kerry should concede.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

ShaniFaye

/off topic just a sec

why is it so hard to take a few minutes time to make sure that you KNOW where you're supposed to go and that they havent changed anything on you? Georgia alone had 3 different websites you could use to verify your polling place and which districts you were in. By doing that you can also make sure your voter registration is correct

/back on topic

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Superbelt

As many as 250k provisionals left, most all could be verified, and if Kerry can get down to only several thousand vote difference a manual recount is automatically triggered in the state.

And the real long shot, Florida, which is around 370,000 votes in favor of Bush still has about a million and a half absentee and provisional ballots to count. Kerry would need to pull well over 50% of them, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. A new President is not installed until late January, I think we can wait until all the votes are counted before we go and declare someone the victor here. Bush wins, sigh, fine. But count all the votes first.

Stompy

He's conceding

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trickyy

yeah im actually surprised no network called it last night.
i was watching cnn and larry king kept saying things like "what are we waiting for now?" and "looks like he won and we can go home, right?" this was before any station called ohio, but it seemed pretty obvious that bush had won it.

i was watching ohio and i think kerry briefly dipped just below the 100,000 vote margin when about 93% was in, but bush extended his lead afterwards.

i don't think it was even worth prolonging thus far. the uncounted votes are not going to help kerry enough anyway. if it was a matter of a few hundred (or even thousand) votes, i can see the point in waiting. the states will indeed finish counting their votes, but i don't think bush is wrong to declare victory given what we know now.

maleficent

Drudge has a one line snippet that Kerry is conceding at 1:00, but CNN has a breaking news story (also a one liner) that Kerry is asking for Bush to concede...

I seem to recall Gore conceding once - and then unconceding...

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Stompy

No, CNN's breaking story was that Kerry was calling Bush to concede. Meaning, Kerry will concede.

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Willravel

As Kerry has conceded, this thread has become moot.

Stompy

There's still a chance. Let's hope the ballots come out in his favor.

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