skier

I've heard a lot of naysaying by a lot of democrats on bush. I was wondering if any republicans can show me what bush has done that has been positive for america. But PLEASE, nothing on Iraq. Leave terrorism and pre-emptive war out of this- I think a president should be able to lead a country in other areas even if there is some military action in it's foreign policy.

Gimme some perspective

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"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

mbaha

He has have lots of people jobs at wallmart after taking away thier good union jobs, that is nice

Mephisto2

Non-farm Productivity grew at a higher rate than during the Clinton administration.



You can read more about these statistics at http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?...ntentid=252964


Mr Mephisto

tecoyah

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

jujueye

Me, too. I try to understand what is good in him, and what good has happened in the last four years, but have found nothing.

Stompy

We've had this thread many times before, and usually this doesn't get answered

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I love lamp.

Willravel

I've been waiting for an answer to such an answer as well. I would love to hear a decent argument for Bush 2004-2008. Looks like he might win (currently Bush-193 and Kerry-112).

Derwood

Don't get too far ahead of yourself. California, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida haven't been called yet, and that is 133 Electoral votes right there. Pennsylvania is almost certainly Kerry, as is California. Ohio and Florida are leaning Bush right now, but key counties haven't reported yet (ie Miami-Dade, etc.)

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"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

Stompy

True true.

CA won't go republican.

FL will most likely go to Kerry. PA and OH are too close to tell (CNN was showing PA w/ high favor for Kerry though)

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I love lamp.

krwlz

Now, given the shit Bush has had to handle in his term (aka... the economy had to fail at some point, cant stay at a boom forever. The shit in the middle east had to be dealt with... how is another issue, but it did have to be done, among other things) the real question is... did he do a better job then the next guy (Good Ole Gore).

I personally think he did. Cant really compare him to Clinton, because the conditions of the world were not the same.

Apples to Apples is such a hard thing to pull off at times, isnt it?

Ramega

1. Turned a post 9/11 recession around in to one of the strongest economies we've ever had.
2. Cut taxes for most people who actually pay them (which is arguably the reason for #1).
3. Disabled and/or captured 70% of al Qaeda leadership.
4. Removed one of the most despotic dictators in history from power.
5. Disrupted the Taliban, and brought democratic elections to Afghanistan.

You asked for info so here it is. I'm not providing sources; do your own homework (I mean everyone). Most viewing this have already decided whether or not to believe it.

Now, is it all gumdrops and roses? Not hardly. He has also:

1. Increased the national deficit
2. Expanded government faster than Clinton did
3. Created one of the biggest and most nebulous govt entities in Homeland Security
4. Funded faith-based substance-abuse programs

However, IMHO, this is a one-issue campaign: who will be tougher on terrorism. And I think Bush is the obvious choice there. For everything else, write your congressman.

Mephisto2

Florida just went to Bush, according to ABC and the BBC.


Mr Mephisto

djtestudo

Great answer.

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"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

skier

i specifically asked for no war or terrorist positives. His methods for combating terrorism are highly controversial (as can be seen by the many topics on the politics board about it) and terrorist activity counts for a very small minority of civilian deaths in America. It's just a very... noticeable cause of death.

Just keeping the thread on topic. Please, i'd like to look at some positives that he has done for the american people.

edit- also thanks for the first two reasons djtest, as well as Mephisto for the bush graph.

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"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

Konichiwaneko

George Bush is a federal representative, and one of the most important entity of Federal Power is our military. He is a respected military commander in chief.

I think the tax cuts really helped stimulate the economy. As a business owner, my clientelle base, mostly the afluent and middle class residents of Georgia speak that they have made more money the last few years. The "poor", I hate that label, also tell me that they don't have any hardship, and really the only ones who complain seem to be the one that don't do anything about their life anyways and depends on government for any scraps it would give.

I don't like how big bush made our government, I think that's the worst part. I want as small a federal and state government. I guess though this is better then a trillion dollar health care plan that would be abused.

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host

[QUOTE=Konichiwaneko]............The "poor", I hate that label, also tell me that they don't have any hardship, and really the only ones who complain seem to be the one that don't do anything about their life anyways and depends on government for any scraps it would give.[quote]

Any sources that back up those comments? How often do you ask the "poor"
what their needs are, how many do you ask, how do you know which people
to ask, are they your customers, are they employed by you?

Do you know, firsthand, the "ones who complain, but don't do anything about
their life anyways and depend on government"?

I don't live too far frrom where you are and I'd like to see these people and
talk to them, myself, siince I'm skeptical because I've never known anyone
around here who fits your descriptions.

D Rice

I don't know if you can leave terrorism out of the equation, preety serious stuff

skier

Alright. admittedly terrorism is on a lot of people's minds, especially with the emphasis that the bush administration has put on it for their campaign. But there are many issues that a president must deal with, other than a portion of their foreign policy.

What has bush done positively in the areas of:

Environmentalism
Health Care
Education
resource management
Foreign policy (minus his attacks on iraq and the war on terror)
Taxes
Economic Growth
social services (including welfare)
foreign trade
etc.

__________________
"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

ravenradiodj

Well, I'm in my 30s, and he's in his 50s, so, chances are, someday I'll get to sit back in my easy chair, grab the remote, and watch his funeral on TV.

Mephisto2

Tasteless


Mr Mephisto

Konichiwaneko

[QUOTE=host][QUOTE=Konichiwaneko]............The "poor", I hate that label, also tell me that they don't have any hardship, and really the only ones who complain seem to be the one that don't do anything about their life anyways and depends on government for any scraps it would give.Talk to college students. They are considered "poor" by our government structure now.

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psyday

Well... he fathered a really cute brunette daughter, does that count?

Twizted

I'm very interested in hearing FACTS about these areas. I, like the rest of America, has to live with our collective decision to give him another 4 years and I need some help understanding WHY he's the right man for the job. War on terrorism IS important, VERY important. I watched the towers fall too... but there is more to life then 9/11 and just hope we didn't make a mistake.

Jason

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-- Emo Philips

Rodney

He motivated record numbers of American Americans to vote.

He did the right thing in Afghanistan. At first.

And that's about it. The education issue, "No Child Left Behind," is an empty shell of a program with unrealistic goals, and was never fully funded. The tax breaks primarily went to the rich, who did not by and large reinvest them in business. Better to give most of the money to the working class, which would immediately pump it back into the economy, because it _really needs the money_. The tax cut has stimulated the economy a little, but inefficiently: kind of like keeping warm by burning money instead of buying wood with it.

KMA-628

The problem is, by adding this caveat, then you exclude on of the main reasons a lot of people suuported President Bush and voted for him.

You are never going to get a candidate that appeals to every one of the issues on your list.

On some of your issues Bush is strong on, others he is weak.

What matters is how each individual voter weighs the importance of each issue individually. The points that may be your "hot button" points may not be the same "hot button" points as mine.

If that is the case, as I suspect it is, then you will never see an answer that appeals to you.

Not to mention there has been thread after thread on this issue (with the subject either being Kerry or Bush). Has anything been accomplished? Nope.

Here are my "hot buttons". Agree. Disagree. I don't really care nor do I desire to debate it. These are my reasons and this is why I cast my vote for Bush.

1) Foreign Policy: Bush didn't back down from anything. He reminded the world that we are not someone to fuck with. He destroyed the "Paper Tiger" and put a lion in its place. The situation with Libya proves this to me. Oh yeah, so we are not popular in other countries? So. I have seen that game played for decades now, it is not new. We always become popular when our help is needed.

2) Economy/Taxes: I do not believe that surplus mean "spend more money and pay down the debt". A surplus means you took more of my money then you needed. Give it back to me, plain and simple. You want to get extra money to pay down the debt? Easy. Cut the fat. Reduce taxes, keep the market system free and it will take care of itself. That is all I want a president to do. Our economy will take care of itself, regardless of who is in power, as long as it is left pretty much alone.

*NOTE* I am also a realist and know the effect of the recession (at the beginning of Bush's term) and 9/11. Consider that the two major contributing factors to the "bad" economy weren't that long ago, I am suprised it is doing as well as it is. I have been through recessions before, this was by far the shortest.

3) Education: I want across the board standards. I have kids in school. In fact, I just changed school districts recently. In one school district my daughter was advanced and in the new one she is behind because the curriculum is considerably harder. In my opinion, there are two major problems to our school system: the NEA and parents that don't give a shit. This "takes a village" crap is getting old and we will pay for it in years to come. We are becoming a nation that relies to heavily on the gov't. Teach my kids. Discipline my kids. Give me money. Give me this. Give me that. How many people get sucessful in a system like that?

Long story short, I want a candidate that is not being pressured by the NEA because I think that union needs to be abolished because it is so full of bureaucratic bullshit that it is leading us down the slippery slope.

4) Social Services (most of which I am against): My "hot button" here is Social Security. Look at the statistics for social security. It is a fact that the system is in serious trouble. I don't have the time to dig up the facts, but look at what level the social security tax on our paycheck is going to have to be to support this system in 20-30 years. I think, if I remember correctly, that the ratio is going to be 2-1. That means, in a two-income household, that both people will be supporting one social security recepient entirely. Guess what, I don't like my taxes as high as they are now. Can you imagine how large the tax for social security is going to need to be to support it? Rather then go to a 2:1 ratio, privatize a portion of my "retirement" so that it goes back to me. This entitlement program is going to implode all over itself if something major isn't done soon--and raising taxes to the level that would be needed to save the system is 100% unacceptable to me (and to you as well if you truly realized what these rates would be).\

5) Conviction: I am not talking religion here. I am talking about a man that stands on his principles. Say what you want about Bush, but even Clinton commented that Bush did exactly what he said he was going to do.

Anyway, that is all I have time for tonight. I could go on, but that is a sample of my list (keyword: my). Do I expect you to accept it? No. Do I wish to debate it to death like every other time it has been brought up before by conservative after conservative. Nope.

Flyguy

How about sticking to the topic people?? No Iraq, terrorism, etc.

What has Bush done for you in the last 4 years????

I do not find it surprising at all that no righties on this board can legitimately answer this question. They always come back to Iraq, or terrorism.

Doesn't that tell you people something?!?

skier

Thank you KMA, that's the sort of stuff i was looking for. A republican telling me why he voted for bush other than for his response to terrorist action. You're listing your positives on a broad range of topics. I was wondering if you could elaborate on your thoughts about the economy and taxes, I'm not sure I understand, mostly this section:

"You want to get extra money to pay down the debt? Easy. Cut the fat. Reduce taxes, keep the market system free and it will take care of itself."

If you "cut the fat", that'll mean a surplus (which should go towards debt reduction then) , but you want the surplus to be spent by reducing taxes instead because they took more money of yours than they should have? Sorry i'm just trying to figure that out. If you could expand/clarify on the summary you gave me it would be great

*goes off to look at the program Bush is heading for social security*

__________________
"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

Konichiwaneko

I thought that if people made over $40000 in our society they are consider middle to upper class. Everyone i know who made that amount or more got the tax cut. There are more people making that amount then millionairs, and those people aren't rich.

You only got a tax break if you pay taxes. I'm so confused on why people would want other to have money if they didn't pay taxes.

What did I do with my $300 dollars? I fixed my brakes, which in turned lead to a mechanic making his wage earn his pay. I don't think the plan of the tax cut was for us to get the money and just give it away.

I am very comfortable in America with the fact that you have to "Earn" your money. I would never tell a group that they can't be more then they are and can't live the lifestyle they want.



In the last 4 years, Bush has made me feel like the President's posistion is one that garners respect. Bush made some very difficult decisions, but they were his decisions that he believe made his job better. I don't feel threathened at all about Bush's policies, and I honestly respect the man for doing what he has done the last 4 years. His job is to secure the american people, and he's taken actions to do so. Most of his actions are agreed to by others, democrats and republicans, but even his democrat "Supporters" started attacking him while he's trying to lead our troups (who very much respect him).

This is all subjective. There will be a rush of TFP leftist who will scream "Show me articles, show me blah" where those articles won't affect how they think or see at all. When it comes to politics you only agree with something if it helps your own cause.

All I know is through personal revelation, and watching Bush through the last 4 years, I am proud to not be a democrat anymore and more a libertarian conservative.


Honest question guys, I've noticed and I wonder about you...Have you noticed that many people would change from liberal to conservative but the numbers that change from conservative to liberal tend to be extremely lower?

I know a lot of "Individuals" who change after they relieze that how much of their personal freedom they would give away to convert from an individual to a diversified (and thus labelled) group, which the Democratic Dogma promotes.

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psyday

Well, he gave more money to Africa to fight aids than anyone else has even suggested, he also was the first President to fund research with Federal dollars into alternative fuels.

ravenradiodj

"He motivated millions of people to vote"?? That's a positive for him? That's like saying, "Well, Lucifer has some good points, because he motivates people to believe in God".

Yes, Mr. Mephisto, my post was tasteless. And if you think that's tasteless, you should see some of the MANY photos of dead Iraqi children, men, and women, and dead American soldiers who died for WEAPONS OF MASS- no, no, wait, for TIES TO AL QUEDA- no, hang on a sec, - because Saddam Hussein - that guy Reagan and Bush Sr. sold all those WMDs to in the 80s - was a very, very bad man.

KMA-628

Konichiwaneko -

You just described me. Used to be a liberal, now I am conservative. I do, however, know (personally) of one case where the reverse happened.

Flyguy -

read the post before yours

skier -

Cutting the fat leads to lower gov't outlays. Lower outlays = lower growth of the debt.

Incentives for people and companies to prosper leads to increases in (not the only factor, but a factor nonetheless) tax revenue for the government.

An example: Take the gov't grant away from the freak that uses it to study the sex lives of squirrels. The government does a lot of stupid shit with our money (yes, it is our money that we gave to them). I have to live on a budget. Companies have to live on a budget. The government should to. I am getting fed up with entitlement program after entitlement program being created and growing to outstanding proportions.

Anyway, yes a surplus "should" be the result. However, I have already been appeased with tax cuts, so I won't bitch. Also, I am a realist and I know that the debt needs to be paid down. You would hear less screaming from me if I thought that the government was spending (or at least trying to) the money more wisely, surplus or not, lower taxes or not.

This is kind of a 50/50 issue for me with Bush. I liked his tax cuts, but I got tired of his blank check policy. I did feel, however, that Kerry would have been much, much worse (there are other ways to raise my taxes than through an increase in income taxes--look at the election results in Colorado for a prime example)

pinkie

He helps the rich.

aliali

Tax cuts for everyone that pays them. Increase in child tax credit. Prescription drugs for medicare recipients endorsed by AARP. Strong support for Israel. Productive diplomacy with Libya. Increased funding for schools. Got more people to participate in the election--for and against.

skier

Thanks for expanding on that issue KMA. And konichi thank you for your comments on bush positives. I would like to remind everyone reading this thread however to keep rebuttals and inflammatory comments to a minimum. If you would like to debate some of the points made in this thread, raise that issue in a new thread.

The aim of this thread is not to debate controversial sections of bush policy but to garner insight from the views of republicans. That is, why they voted for him for reasons other than his war on terror(ism).

__________________
"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

rukkyg

I agree. I think Michael Moore used his million dollar refund to help make his next book. I read that book. It was good. Thanks Bush!

Also, unlike most people who actually support bush, I actually will be rich some day, and then I'll enjoy my tax cuts. I won't give any to charity. I won't help anyone. Afterall, if half the country votes to not help people, why should I do it on my own? Thanks Bush!

With my tax cuts, I will buy several SUVs with low gas-mileage so I can "be above everyone else on the road." And since those poor kids are off fighting for my oil, I won't have to worry about high gas prices. Also, because of the clean air act, I won't have to worry about polluting the air. Thanks Bush!

If I have a daughter and she gets pregnant and wants an abortion, but can't get one because it's illegal, it won't matter. I'll be so rich, I'll use my tax cuts to pay a doctor to do it in secret. Thanks Bush!

The entire young adult population of america practically being forced to invest in the stock market with their social security taxes will help my actual amount of money invested in the market be worth more and more, which I will use to buy a few Hummers (the vehicle). Thanks Bush!

Although satirical, comments similar to these can be found in a lot of bush-voters minds, although not so much on this board.

D Rice

lower taxes to help boost the economy

skier

I would ask the sensible members of this board not to rise to rukky's bait. Thank you.

KMA-628

This has to be on of the oldest, most tired out sayings I have heard uttered from anybody's lips: "tax cuts for the rich"

The mere mention of the phrase "tax cut" causes most liberals to immediately spew this remark with absolutely no factual basis.

Rodney - back it up, show me the proof how this tax cut "primarily" helped the rich. I am not rich and it helped me, significantly. I know several people that are classified as "rich" and they still pay more in taxes then I bring home in my paychecks. I know a guy who constantly has to pay late fees on his tax payments because he sometimes doesn't bring in enough to pay the tax bill.

It is utter nonsense.

Proportionately, the "rich" get a bigger cut, but they are already paying several times more in taxes then we do. Our percentage of the cut is bigger then theirs. Look at the facts on the latest rounds of tax cuts before posting such dribble.

god, this phrase is overused, tired out and old.

Do you want to know who benefited "primarily" from this last cut? Parents, pure and simple. You want to bitch, bitch about that.

Rodney

Sorry you're tired of it, but it's true. I don't even have to back it up. If one or two percent of the population earns 80 percent of the income, then they pretty much get 80 percent of the tax cuts. It's not even a matter of fairness; it's a matter of effectiveness.

The richer you are, the more disposable income you have -- ie, that income which you do not actually need in order to live. It can be spent at your discretion. The reason for a tax cut is to stimulate the economy, theoretically; so why "stimulate" it by giving more money to people who already have a surplus? They're already spending a level of money that they're comfortable with; oh, they might buy an extra car, but the rest goes into the bank. It's not going to stimulate investment that creates new jobs, because having spare money doesn't make you happier to invest when things don't look all that good. Superstar investor Warren Buffett currently has much of his money in cash -- foreign currency, much of it -- waiting for the U.S. economy to sort itself out. Giving him a tax cut didn't make him invest.

If you want to get money moving through the economy, give it all to people who'll spend it, because they have to -- on a car they need to go to work, on a replacement washing machine, on clothing for the kids, on food, even if. And this money will find its way back to businesses, and the managers will note the increase in the bottom line, hopefully increase production, and everybody's happy. And the rich will skim off their share, as is their right.

Or, give tax cuts to rich people who _do_ risk their money in hard times, by giving them tax cuts on the return on their investment. But don't just throw money blindly at the rich, as much as they'd encourage you to do so.

Should the wealthy pay heavy taxes? Sure, why not? After all, America is a wealth-producing machine and they get most of it. All the money for health, education, welfare, roads, and so on makes this business possible and profitable. The armed forces exist largely to protect American interests throughout the world -- business interests. They keep open the tradeways, give America clout to negotiate favorable trade agreements for business interests, and basically make international business both possible and easier, for American business especially. So the rich get their money's worth out of government, as far as I'm concerned. America is an entire system that supports their wealth. They should stop crying and pay up -- not blindly, but responsibly. I don't condemn greed, but I do condemn stupid, short-sighted greed, and I see a lot of that in the current government/business junta.

pan6467

Good things about Bush?

He wants to actually work with NASA and get the Space Program going again.

He seems like a nice guy but a puppet and puppets some times cut the strings before it is too late.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"