11-01-2004, 02:34 PM | #41 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Missouri
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Socialist? Green? Reform? Constitution? Personal Choice? America First? American Nazi? Christian Falangist Party of America? Light Party? What happens when any of these get big enough to wield influence through corporations and the media? Sorry to get practical. |
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11-01-2004, 02:42 PM | #42 (permalink) | |
Banned
Location: BFE
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And as for the "tool that people in power use", you have NO clue who I am and what I do, what positions I hold, what my entire educational background is, and what I've done on the course of my life. I've lived an officially "frowned upon" existence (YOU try selling machineguns to the population at large, and watch how fast your ass lands in jail. I did it PUBLICLY for SIX YEARS under Janet Reno's DoJ, moved over ten MILLION dollars worth of total inventory, and was never indicted, much less convicted.) The Government doesn't like what I've done, but they have never been able to get charges to stick, because I KNOW the law, and how to use those levers of power. Last edited by daswig; 11-01-2004 at 02:53 PM.. |
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11-01-2004, 03:19 PM | #43 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Missouri
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Let's hear the criticisms of the Liberatarian Party. Last edited by aliali; 11-01-2004 at 03:27 PM.. |
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11-01-2004, 07:33 PM | #44 (permalink) |
Addict
Location: Milwaukee, WI
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I am living in a swing state. Wisconsin is pretty much 50/50, depending on who I listen to. The man that is currently President scares me, and has in the past made me seriously consider leaving the country. There is no way in hell I would vote for somebody I know won't win this state.
I will be voting for Kerry, and hoping to all hell that others who would normally vote for a third party candidate will also. |
11-01-2004, 07:39 PM | #45 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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well....while the present system might be little more than voting for which faction within the oligarchy will hold power for 4 years, this time the usual argument simply does not hold--there are significant distinctions between the factions. getting bush out of power would also push the conservative media apparatus (which is an empirical formation, the outlines of which are obvious, and which has nothing symmetrical to it on the "left") back into opposition--if you want to seriously work for third party options, you absolutely need to work to get these people out of power--if only because it would be simpler to mobilize third party spaces if the dominant discourse was at least rational, at least referred to the empirical world and did not retreat into a self-reinforcing rhetoric of the Will within which the vacant become resolute, the incompetent become heroic---a very christian, very moral context in which it is ok to lie about war, in which one can talk about the sanctity of life while supporting the wasting of life, military and civilian, in a pointless misguided adventure in iraq...
and these are only the tip of a very long list. i support the creation of more political options, more political parties. i have heard arguments like hal's over and over from nader folk. i understand them and to an extent agree with them but in this election, i find that it is not only possible but necessary to suck it up and vote tactically.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
11-01-2004, 08:08 PM | #46 (permalink) | |
BFG Builder
Location: University of Maryland
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This is going to be my first Presidential election ever. I've voted in local elections, but I just missed the 2000 elections by four days. I don't want my first presidential vote to be for the lesser of two evils; I want it to be for the party that I agree with the most. And that vote is for Michael Badnarik of the Libertarian Party.
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If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm. |
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11-01-2004, 08:15 PM | #47 (permalink) |
Illusionary
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A good friend said this to me yesterday:
" I wont vote the lesser of two evils....unless one happens to be Satan" clinched it for me
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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha |
11-01-2004, 08:36 PM | #48 (permalink) |
The sky calls to us ...
Super Moderator
Location: CT
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I'll be voting for the candidate who best represents me on the most issues and the most important issues to me. Even so, I only agree with him on about 65% of the issues. It's far better than the 30% and 25% on which the two main candidates agree with me. I agree with the party lines on the majority of the issues, so a vote for my candidate is really a vote for what I believe in.
The only way to get a better representation of what I believe on the ballot is to run for office. I'll be doing that next year. I hope that enough people in my district agree with me that they choose me to represent them. If not, I hope they choose someone who does. |
11-01-2004, 09:15 PM | #49 (permalink) | |
Chicks dig the Saxaphone
Location: Nowheresville OH
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I'm voting for Kerry because I don't like how many deceptions the Bush administration has tried to get away with. I'm also afraid of moral legislation, such as the banning of gay marriage, and the banning of abortion. This is an election for the Supreme Court. As a future educator, I detest the small minded No Child Left Behind Act. Kerry is a douchebag, but I'm voting for him, because I fear Bush's domestic policy.
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Yes, band camp is all it's cracked up to be. So I like Chrono... So what? Last edited by lukethebandgeek; 11-01-2004 at 09:18 PM.. |
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11-01-2004, 09:32 PM | #50 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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I live in California, but I have considered voting for kerry since the debates. I'm not a supporter of his, nor am I a democrat, but too many people I respect hold similar opinions as the one above for me to discount.
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
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11-01-2004, 09:43 PM | #51 (permalink) | |
Banned
Location: BFE
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So, what you're saying is that you're sacrificing your own opinions to fit in? Thass no gooood... God (the Great Pumpkin, evolution, or whatever you think created you) gave you a brain. You should use it to make up your own mind, not just to copy others. |
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11-01-2004, 09:54 PM | #53 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Right here
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__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
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11-01-2004, 10:07 PM | #54 (permalink) | ||
Banned
Location: BFE
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11-01-2004, 10:32 PM | #55 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: St. Louis, MO
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As a student of political science and history, and as a generally aware human being, I can vote Democrat or Republican and have a fairly clear idea of what I'm going to get without shedding a tear when Bush hugs a girl who lost her father in front of the camera or when Kerry stands up as the would-be savior of countless lives with his medicine-beefing and war-reducing master plans.
I would rather get 4 more years of Bush than see Kerry take even one term. This is because of what they've both done rather than what either has said. I've thoroughly reviewed the third parties that represent some of my views, and would not hesitate to vote for a Libertarian or Constitution candidate that I felt would most accurately represent my views. As neither ideological extremists do so in the way that the professional centrist Bush does, Bush gets my vote. This idea of "...the corporations! the corporations!" and the almost teenage need to declare rebellion with a third party vote is ridiculous. If you are fortunate enough to fall within the tight ideological constraints of the relatively major American third parties, then you have your decision cut out for you. The rest of us need to do our best to pick one of the two moderates that best reflect our views.
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The facehugger is short-lived outside the egg which normally protects it. Armed with a long grasping tail, a spray of highly-concentrated acid and the single-minded desire to impregnate a single selected prey using its extending probe, it will fearlessly pursue and attack a single selected target until it has succeeded in attachment or it or its target is dead |
11-01-2004, 11:08 PM | #56 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: midwest
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We are stuck with a two party system, for better or worse, Halx, and for that reason your Libertarian vote is meaningless. Republicans and Democrats disagree on lots of things, but they share a desire to keep third parties out of the game, much less fourth or fifth parties, and they have the money and political power to have their way. At most, a third party candidate can be a spoiler in a close race, eg, 2000.
I would be the first to concede that our political system is flawed, but until a better system can be proposed and peacefully implemented to fairly govern and preserve the freedoms of our 280 million plus population , I'll go cast my vote and accept the result, whether or not we end up with the guy I voted for. Last edited by loganmule; 11-01-2004 at 11:11 PM.. |
11-02-2004, 01:31 AM | #57 (permalink) |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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One may easily guess by my avatar that I generally agree with Halx. One thing I think needs to be understood is this argument that one is voting for a candidate who can't win and/or that the small amount of support one's vote gives that party does not amount to much.
I'll put it this way: I don't believe voting for a third party candidate is something that simply takes place on Nov. 2. Third party supporters have a bit more work than that. What I mean to say is that I don't believe one can reasonably vote for a third party candidate tomorrow and not also push for voting reform. I believe votes should be cast based on one's conscience, not on the lesser of two evils. Now, of those people who recognize that their conscience is most in line with a third party candidate, I believe that being guided by one's conscience in this regard requires further action. People are right to say that it is essentially impossible for a third party candidate to win this election. That doesn't mean I shouldn't vote for him though. It means I should vote for him and CONTINUE to push for voting reform so that, one day, we have a voting system that does not adhere to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duvergers_Law">Duverger's Law</a> and, furthermore, that eliminates most possibilities of tactical voting. Listen, if you've looked at ALL the significant party candidates and their views objectively (I define "significant party" to be any party on enough ballots to win the election) and you find that one of the major party candidates best represents your views, then ote for that person. I think what Halx is getting at though is that there is an underlying reason why you end up supporting one of the major parties more often than not. One is because of the manipulation by them on the general public through numerous means. The other is due to various sources of socialization. However, I think that to any person who seriously looks at the stances available, the Green party is the natural progression of the ideals of the Democratic Party and the Libertarian Party is the natural progression of the ideals of the original Republican Party (more than 50-100 years ago, especially before the Christian Fundamentalists took it over). aliali It's about not voting for 1) someone who is simply "not someone else" and 2) someone who is simply duping you in the hopes of gaining more power. If you honestly don't agree with any of the third parties more than the democrats or republicans, then don't vote for them. From my perspective though, I can't support candidates who are so blatently dishonest, not to mention that I really don't think the republican or democratic parties take their philosophies to their logical conclusions.
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 11-02-2004 at 01:47 AM.. |
11-02-2004, 05:58 AM | #58 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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what enables you to think that there is a distinction in this situation between voting one's "conscience" and voting tactically?
do you somehow imagine that the decision to vote tactically is easy? on what basis? i do not see where any of the pseudo-psychological statements about voting tactically come from...it seems naieve in the extreme to imagine that you can abstract your vote from tactical considerations. maybe the problem works like this: for people inclined to vote nader, the prospect of another bush term is obviously, a priori, something to be rejected out of hand--which opens the way to tactical consideration. i am not sure about libertarian politics--supporters of that position do not have a real problem with another bush term insofar as it is more likely to advance some of thier overall goals--say the dismantling of a coherent relation between the state and the economy--but they do not like bushrhetoric and other elements of his policies--but they do not feel as though they really loose either way. maybe that explains the sanctimoniousness that sometimes appears here. it is a function of their assessment of the tactical situation.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
11-02-2004, 09:00 AM | #59 (permalink) | |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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11-02-2004, 09:17 AM | #60 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Missouri
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I don't agree that every third party should be elevated above the major parties just because they are smaller. I also do not agree that people who vote rep. or dem. either for their guy or against the other guy have thrown away their self-respect or lack any dignity. I'm sorry, that is just insulting to millions of people. It's small-minded, self-important garbage. |
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11-02-2004, 10:35 AM | #61 (permalink) | |
Please touch this.
Owner/Admin
Location: Manhattan
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Electioneering is social engineering on a group of people. It's easier to sway many at one time than it is one by one. People who vote for the 'popular' choices are simply being sheep.
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You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals] |
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11-02-2004, 10:47 AM | #62 (permalink) |
Banned
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The fact that some simply state that voting for a "third party" is a throwaway, or "won't make a difference" is a large part of the reason why the country- both politically and otherwise- is in the sad state it is today. There are more than two parties for a reason. You are not a sheep. If everyone voted their own voice, and not relied on the two-party bullshit, then maybe we'd see some change. As it stands, the dem's and rep's don't even see them as competition, and do no work to be better for it.
That is sad. |
11-02-2004, 10:55 AM | #63 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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Quote:
It's more than possible that those people don't want change in the way some here envision it.
__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
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11-02-2004, 10:58 AM | #64 (permalink) | |
Upright
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11-02-2004, 11:15 AM | #66 (permalink) | |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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11-02-2004, 12:20 PM | #67 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Missouri
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Once people (who are dumb) make a choice, you, a person (and therefore smart) now are forced to choose a less popular option even if you disagree with it. So a smart person is a single sheep forced to choose an unpopular choice by the dumb herd. I wonder if all the dumb, popular-thinking sheep know how they manipulate the smart individual sheep into throwing away their votes on someone who cannot win. I feel sorry for all those smart third party voters who may get cursed with popularity some day if significant numbers of people (now dumb) start to join them. I'll bet they all felt like idiots when Lincoln won as a third party in 1860. Or when the third party got almost 20% in '92. I proudly joined the sheep about an hour ago for several races and voted Libertarian in several others. |
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11-02-2004, 01:39 PM | #68 (permalink) |
Submit to me, you know you want to
Location: Lilburn, Ga
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I have never had a problem voting Lib if I believed in the person running....I've never been "strictly" republican.....I still stand by my earlier statement ... if the Libs had a candidate I wanted to vote for for pres I would have...but Im not voting for the Lib party just "to vote for a Lib"
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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!! |
11-02-2004, 02:04 PM | #69 (permalink) |
Please touch this.
Owner/Admin
Location: Manhattan
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I'm just saying.. when everybody thinks alike, nobody thinks.
I've come to the logical conclusion that the unprecedented propaganda and deception going on between the two main parties is enough to disqualify them from the list of practical choices. Unfortunately humans in a giant mass are quite impractical and irrational.
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You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals] |
11-02-2004, 02:14 PM | #70 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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I don't think voting third party could be considered practical in any sense either. What are you practically accomplishing? The bold statement that you send in voting third party will fall on deaf ears. The fact is that the two major parties would have to fuck things up really badly for a third party to ever be relevant in a national election. The self destruction of one of the parties seems like only a matter of time, but until it actually happens, voting third party is purely a masturbatory exercise. |
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11-02-2004, 02:32 PM | #71 (permalink) |
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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I don't think I'd vote lesser of two evils. For me, it came down to Badnarik, Petrouka, or Bush. And out of those three, I preferred Bush.
It was most certainly a dignified choice, even if it incidentally conforms to half of the voting populace.
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
11-02-2004, 02:44 PM | #72 (permalink) |
Adrift
Location: Wandering in the Desert of Life
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First, let me just say that regardless of who you vote for, be sure to vote. I am a believer in the two party system, (I have written about this before and don't have the time to rehash it now) but I would never fault someone for voting with their conscience. I do have to say that Hal's comments are more that a little condescending. Stating that those who do not agree with your general outlook are "unthinking" or simply being herded by some form of socio-political brainwashing movements is truly painting with a big brush. I am guessing that you have recently studied the concepts of "Group Think" and are simply caught up in a whirl of social engineering yourself. That being said, I am glad you have made your comments since they (as they usually do) have sparked some interesting debate.
I, as many of you can guess, proudly voted for John Kerry. I have been a staunch Kerry supporter from just about the time he announced. I have worked with his campiagn and have had the opportunity to meet the Senator twice. I am enthusiastic in my support of the Senator and truly believe he will make an exemplary President. He is a deep thinker and strategist. He has a commanding grasp of international and domestic issues. He brings to the table a desire to promote the environment and science and has advanced an intriguing (though not perfect) idea for a way to help increase health care coverage in America. He has a history of working well with foreign leaders and is known in Washington as one of the Senators who can work with either party to get things done. I hear all the time that President Bush is a good and sincere man. I actually agree with that assessment, and believe that John Kerry possesses those same qualities. He is not as "open" or "folksy" as President Bush, but he cares about America, its citizens and our future. John Kerry regardless of how the Bush Campaign and the GOP want to paint him, is not weak on the military. He actually has a strong record of voting to promote sensible (ie not-wasteful) military spending. His record is not nearly as "liberal" as it is being portrayed. I firmly believe that he will govern from the middle, with an even hand, keen insight and with a belief that we can make this country even stronger and certainly more respected. I also voted for John McCain for Senate, so don't think I am just a Dem party hack.
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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams |
11-02-2004, 02:48 PM | #73 (permalink) | ||
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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From elsewhere. I didn't bother to preserve links and such.
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
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11-02-2004, 04:29 PM | #74 (permalink) |
Please touch this.
Owner/Admin
Location: Manhattan
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Voting third party would be practical if not for the impractical actions of many others. However, just because most everyone is doing it doesn't make it right.
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You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals] |
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