Florida ballots go missing [Is this news in the US?] - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Mephisto2 · 10-28-2004, 05:21 PM

I haven't seen anyone post or comment on this so far, so I was wondering if it's news in the US. It seems to me that it would be something Democrats / Kerry supporters would jump on.

Quote:

Florida ballot papers go missing

Tens of thousands of postal ballots have gone missing in the state of Florida, sparking fresh fears of irregularities in the US poll campaign.

Authorities are investigating the apparent loss of 58,000 absentee forms in Broward County while officials have said replacements are being sent out.

Controversy over the vote in Florida in 2000 delayed the national result.

With five days until the poll, the presidential candidates are focusing their campaigns in crucial states.

The accepted wisdom is that whoever wins two out of the three states of Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida will win the election, the BBC's Rob Watson in Washington says.

The latest opinion polls suggest that the race in all three is still fairly close, our correspondent adds.

For the fourth day, Mr Kerry held the president responsible on Thursday for 350 metric tons of explosive missing in Iraq.

"The commander-in-chief is not getting his job done," the Democrat said.

Mr Bush hit back, saying John Kerry was "the wrong man for the wrong job at the wrong time".

'No blame game'

The missing ballots have fuelled an atmosphere of intense suspicion in Florida, with Democrats already backing nine separate lawsuits in the state, says the BBC's Justin Webb in Washington.

KEY SWING STATES
1. Florida - 27 electoral votes
2. Pennsylvania - 21
3. Ohio - 20
4. Minnesota - 10
5. Wisconsin - 10
6. Iowa - 7
7. Nevada - 5
8. New Mexico - 5
9. New Hampshire - 4

If the outcome is close and decides the result in the presidential race - and both of those eventualities are perfectly possible - it seems virtually certain that protracted legal battles will follow, our correspondent says.

Electoral officials in Broward County say they will send more ballots after being overwhelmed by calls from would-be voters, unable to get to the polls, who fear that their votes have been stolen.

A police investigation into the missing ballots has not uncovered any indication of criminal wrongdoing.

The US postal service inspectorate said it was highly unlikely that 58,000 pieces of mail had just disappeared.

A spokesman said inspectors were trying to establish whether the ballots were ever delivered to the postal service.

Broward County elections supervisor Brenda Snipes said the situation was not a "blame game".

"What we're concentrating on is getting the ballots to the voter," she told the Miami Herald newspaper.

Lawsuits

Campaigners are working to ensure that no-one loses the right to vote because of the missing ballots.

Democratic Party legislators have called on the electoral authorities to publish newspaper ads telling people of other options for voting.

They also accused the Republican-dominated state government of dirty tricks.

Governor Jeb Bush - the brother of the incumbent president - has rejected suggestions of bias.

In 2000, Broward gave Al Gore his biggest margin among Florida counties. He won 67% of the vote there, while losing the state to George W Bush by 537 votes.

"It looks like they're trying to steal the vote again," said Diane Glasser, vice-chairwoman of the Florida Democratic Party.

Both the Democrats and Republicans have already begun filing lawsuits in states across the US, challenging different aspects of the election process.

'Intimidation'

Voting rights activists in Florida say the state could also face acute problems with vote-counting and the process of casting ballots in next week's election.

Early voting, which has been going on for more than a week, shows that new electronic voting machine technology is much slower than the old punch-card method, the BBC's Daniel Lak reports from Miami.

A high turnout could mean huge delays, our correspondent says.

Other concerns include accusations of voter intimidation by party representatives outside polling stations during the early voting.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...as/3960679.stm

Published: 2004/10/28 22:02:05 GMT

Nine seperate law suits? Already?

I have to say, that without further information, I'm not impressed.

Mr Mephisto

SecretMethod70 · 10-28-2004, 05:27 PM

To answer the question posed in the thread title: yes.

pan6467 · 10-28-2004, 05:30 PM

There is so much corruption and playing with states' ballots and polling places that no matter what happens Tues. night we may never know who truly won.

As I shake my head all I can say is Watergate was child's play compared to what both sides are doing this election.

For one side to blame the other or to EVEN start with they are worse than my side shows why we are in this mess.. This is what happens when the divisiveness gets so nasty and bitter that it's unreasonable and suicidal.

guy44 · 10-28-2004, 08:05 PM

The thing is, voter suppression or vote tampering accusations have been pretty one-sided. I have heard SO many instances of vote suppression caused by Republicans that it is simply astounding. Some of it is clearly directed nationally (the RNC funded group that tore up Democratic registration forms). Other is probably done by individuals or small groups of people trying to stop people in traidtionally democratic areas in swing states from voting.

The accusations against the Dems seem to focus on basically inconsequential stuff, like stealing yard signs. It is true that a whole bunch of people register twice, and some even vote twice in different places, but that can hardly be blamed on the Democrats - something like 40% of people who do so vote Republican. It is a by-product of our state-by-state, disarrayed election system.

And believe me - I'm not saying this just as a partisan. I'm from Chicago, and I KNOW about the kind of shit that goes down here by the Democrats. But Illinois isn't a swing state. I'm just wondering if there are any legitimate instances of Democrat-led vote tampering efforts. If anyone has any, I'd be glad to see them.

hammer4all · 10-28-2004, 08:46 PM

There is a lot of vote suppression and disenfranchisement going behind the scenes as was detailed in a BBC report aired exclusively in the U.S. on today's Democracy Now! The RNC is pressuring news organizations not to report it.

Quote:

GREG PALAST: He was doing early voting, that one hour before he voted, they changed his status from felon to upright citizen, so he could vote. There's still -- the U.S. press doesn't cover this.

JUAN GONZALEZ: And who was it who tipped him off? You told us off camera. Can you tell us on camera?

GREG PALAST: One of the major newspapers in America is foolishly still not covering the story. It's hard to cover the story. You have to understand, BBC has been threatened by the Republican National Committee.

JUAN GONZALEZ: What was the newspaper? A reporter from the major newspaper?

GREG PALAST: I cannot say.

JUAN GONZALEZ: OK. It's a major newspaper in New York, right?

GREG PALAST: I understand.

AMY GOODMAN: What about BBC. You are talking about being threatened?

GREG PALAST: Yeah. That's why I’m grateful that you have run the report today. Because the Republican National Committee is threatening BBC, as they have done before with my reports, saying that if Greg Palast is on the air there will be no interviews for the network. From the Republican National Committee, which is, of course, cutting off the air supply of the news organization, and you can immediately see why American news organizations won't touch the story. That's basically that the Republican Party has a hit list of black people they're going to try to wipe out on Election Day, stop them from voting, and in particular, this has the effect of not only of intimidating the voters, eliminating voters, but in places like Jacksonville where three and four-hour waits are expected, this could entirely sabotage the voting operation. Understand, this is illegal if they're targeting black folk. It is against federal law.

http://www.democracynow.org/article....4/10/28/141211

Mephisto2 · 10-28-2004, 09:10 PM

Let me add that I was not implying there was any conspiracy with these ballots going missing.

But the post above (by hammer4all) is ominous if true.

Mr Mephisto

trickyy · 10-28-2004, 09:38 PM

i hope we don't have election by attorney
so much litigation...the courts stayed out of elections (more or less) until last year
now it is becoming pervasive because of all of the confusion
the country is so divided that the winner will have a lot of credibility to earn

of course neither party is blameless. this election should be close, and the less-scrupulous in the parties' lower ranks are doing anything to win.

and then this quote was dredged up lately, too.

Quote:

"If we do not suppress the Detroit vote, we're going to have a tough time in this election cycle."
-- STATE REP. JOHN PAPPAGEORGE, R-Troy, said this week as he discussed election strategy during a meeting of the Oakland County Republican Party.
"Republicans need to reach into Detroit. I didn't lose the election in Detroit. I wasn't able to maintain the margins I needed in places like Oakland County."

i don't want to lose his context, but it doesn't sound too positive. he has since apologized, but it is disappointing to hear elected officials speak like this...
sorry if this was already posted, but it's hard to keep up in here these days

daswig · 10-28-2004, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guy44

The accusations against the Dems seem to focus on basically inconsequential stuff, like stealing yard signs. It is true that a whole bunch of people register twice, and some even vote twice in different places, but that can hardly be blamed on the Democrats - something like 40% of people who do so vote Republican. It is a by-product of our state-by-state, disarrayed election system.

And believe me - I'm not saying this just as a partisan. I'm from Chicago, and I KNOW about the kind of shit that goes down here by the Democrats. But Illinois isn't a swing state. I'm just wondering if there are any legitimate instances of Democrat-led vote tampering efforts. If anyone has any, I'd be glad to see them.

Yup, like the crack cocaine for voter registration forms was NOT a NAACP thing, but rather a Republican/CIA black bag job... There's a reason why Illinois will never be a swing state....it's because of massive fraud.

Richard Daley. Huey Long. Tammany Hall. Take yer pick.

guy44 · 10-29-2004, 10:57 AM

OK, daswig. Lets summarize. The Republicans have led a massive campaign, ranging from illegally challenging thousands of registrations in places like Ohio based on no evidence of fraud to ripping up Democrat voter registration papers to Sproul and Associates telling door-to-door workers only to return Republican registrations in various states.

I'm not familiar with the NAACP thing, but assuming it is true, that means that the ONLY evidence of Dem. voter fraud efforts is the stupid actions of one person who belongs to a non-partisan organization.

And Illinois isn't a swing state because Republicans from Jack Ryan to George Ryan have been destroyed by scandal after scandal. There are no up-and-coming Republicans in Illinois. As well, the Dems are very strong with Durbin, Emmanuel, and of course, Obama. Trust me - the voter irregularities in Illinois are limited to local elections in Chicago. Illinois went for Reagan, currently has its first Democratic governor in 20 years and currently has 1 Republican Senator. The goddam Speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert, is from Illinois!

Which massive fraud was it that did that? Perhaps Illinois is going Kerry because it has millions of minorities who hate being disenfranchised by a party that rarely represents their views. Perhaps because it has a proud working class tradition of voting Democrat. Perhaps because Republican candidates this year are headlined by the freak-show that is Alan Keyes. Perhaps because Democrats are much better organized in the state. Perhaps becaue Illinois has been hard hit economically during Bush's tenure. These are plausible explanations. I know it is difficult, but try to use facts. It bolsters arguments.

10-28-2004, 05:27 PM	#2 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	To answer the question posed in the thread title: yes. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

10-28-2004, 05:30 PM	#3 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	There is so much corruption and playing with states' ballots and polling places that no matter what happens Tues. night we may never know who truly won. As I shake my head all I can say is Watergate was child's play compared to what both sides are doing this election. For one side to blame the other or to EVEN start with they are worse than my side shows why we are in this mess.. This is what happens when the divisiveness gets so nasty and bitter that it's unreasonable and suicidal. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

10-28-2004, 08:05 PM	#4 (permalink)
guy44 Somnabulist Location: corner of No and Where	The thing is, voter suppression or vote tampering accusations have been pretty one-sided. I have heard SO many instances of vote suppression caused by Republicans that it is simply astounding. Some of it is clearly directed nationally (the RNC funded group that tore up Democratic registration forms). Other is probably done by individuals or small groups of people trying to stop people in traidtionally democratic areas in swing states from voting. The accusations against the Dems seem to focus on basically inconsequential stuff, like stealing yard signs. It is true that a whole bunch of people register twice, and some even vote twice in different places, but that can hardly be blamed on the Democrats - something like 40% of people who do so vote Republican. It is a by-product of our state-by-state, disarrayed election system. And believe me - I'm not saying this just as a partisan. I'm from Chicago, and I KNOW about the kind of shit that goes down here by the Democrats. But Illinois isn't a swing state. I'm just wondering if there are any legitimate instances of Democrat-led vote tampering efforts. If anyone has any, I'd be glad to see them. __________________ "You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

10-29-2004, 10:57 AM	#9 (permalink)
guy44 Somnabulist Location: corner of No and Where	OK, daswig. Lets summarize. The Republicans have led a massive campaign, ranging from illegally challenging thousands of registrations in places like Ohio based on no evidence of fraud to ripping up Democrat voter registration papers to Sproul and Associates telling door-to-door workers only to return Republican registrations in various states. I'm not familiar with the NAACP thing, but assuming it is true, that means that the ONLY evidence of Dem. voter fraud efforts is the stupid actions of one person who belongs to a non-partisan organization. And Illinois isn't a swing state because Republicans from Jack Ryan to George Ryan have been destroyed by scandal after scandal. There are no up-and-coming Republicans in Illinois. As well, the Dems are very strong with Durbin, Emmanuel, and of course, Obama. Trust me - the voter irregularities in Illinois are limited to local elections in Chicago. Illinois went for Reagan, currently has its first Democratic governor in 20 years and currently has 1 Republican Senator. The goddam Speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert, is from Illinois! Which massive fraud was it that did that? Perhaps Illinois is going Kerry because it has millions of minorities who hate being disenfranchised by a party that rarely represents their views. Perhaps because it has a proud working class tradition of voting Democrat. Perhaps because Republican candidates this year are headlined by the freak-show that is Alan Keyes. Perhaps because Democrats are much better organized in the state. Perhaps becaue Illinois has been hard hit economically during Bush's tenure. These are plausible explanations. I know it is difficult, but try to use facts. It bolsters arguments. __________________ "You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

10-28-2004, 09:10 PM	#6 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Let me add that I was not implying there was any conspiracy with these ballots going missing. But the post above (by hammer4all) is ominous if true. Mr Mephisto