USA Patriot Act

[D Rice]

Yesterday marked the third annivesery of the Pat Act. I am intrested in seeing what a lot of yall think about the act. I am a student at a private university and yesterday thier were protests by people with a lot of nonsense that really did not know what they were talking about. I decided to do a little research on the topic. I can see why people see the Act as a violation of our civil liberties. Although the act basically gave law enforcement and gov't authority the same rights they have had to fight organized crime, drug trafficers, and child pornography but now allow them to use these tools to fight terrorists. I talked to a few of the protesters and asked them the very basic question of "Is the United States safer because of the passing of the USA pat act (which stands for Uniting and Strengthening America)? They answered no. I would like to hear from yall on this topic.

[djtestudo]

I don't know of any problems that have come from the Patriot Act, and therefore no infringment on privacy (if someone can show me something, please do).

I don't care either way. Until there is a problem, there is no problem, as Yogi Berra might say.

[powerclown]

I've got no problem with The Patriot Act. If you're not doing anything wrong to begin with, you have nothing to worry about. Be a law abiding citizen, and the government won't bug you. Simple.

[The_Dunedan]

"As long as you're not Jewish, you've got nothing to worry about!"

Fact is that it's statistically impossible to go for more than 14 days without breaking one of more of the TWO MILLION Federal laws on the books, to say nothing of the even greater number of State laws. If any one of these actions potentially endanger life ( speeding ) or attempt to change Gov't policy through "threat, duress, intimidation, or coercion" ( protest marches ) you can be Gitmo-ed. We've ALL got something to hide, folks. The RIAA has used provisions of the Patriot Act in it's prosecution of music downloaders, it's been used to harass an art student in Seattle and a strip-club owner in Detroit, to say nothing of the fact that it subverts the 1st, 4th, and 5th Amendments to a Treasonous degree. Senators and Representatives weren't allowed to rwad the thing before voting, they were simply told "vote on this thing NOW, dammit!" and did so.
It subverts the Posse Comitatus Act, allowing for soldiers and US Military hardware to be used in domestic law-enforcement.
It allows for secret searches, arrests, and detentions. It also, btw, makes it a federal crime for someone ( like a reporter ) to divulge the name, location, and charges against any person so detained.
It allows for trials by Military Tribunal ( aka Courts Martial ) anywhere and anytime. The defendant does not have the right to an attourney, to face his accusers, or to know the charges. He can be tried in absentia, and sentanced to any penalty including Death by a simple majority ( 5/9 ). These trials can take place anywhere the US has military facilities; one could theoretically be tried on an aircraft-carrier in the middle of the ocean. Under UCMJ, the Accused is presumed to be Guilty until proven Innocent.

The USA PATRIOT act is Treasonous, and those politicians who supported it are Traitors.

[ARTelevision]

It has been discussed here countless times (do a search) and notably here:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...ht=patriot+act

[cthulu23]

Originally Posted by powerclown

I've got no problem with The Patriot Act. If you're not doing anything wrong to begin with, you have nothing to worry about. Be a law abiding citizen, and the government won't bug you. Simple.

American history is filled with tales of official abuse of power by law enforcement personnel, federal or otherwise. This history of abuse is the very reason that we have so many legal protections from law enforcement. To me, it seems a little naive to assume that government won't abuse newfound powers. If history is any indicator than we must assume that they will.

But I've said all of his before. Follow Art's link if you want to see my much more verbose argument from 4 months ago.

[MSD]

My phones have been repeatedly tapped since I told a friend (over the phone) that I think Bush should be impeached if he is reelected. I heard the tap click in a few seconds after that, and I hear an identical sound most of the time while i'm on the phone. The sound is consistent with what I've heard when I tested wiretaps on my own phone line. Maybe the PATRIOT Act is what allows this, but I'm certainly concerned about privacy violations.

[D Rice]

What are your examples of how law enforcement has abused their powers in the past? I think it is obvious that the Patriot Act is working. 4 cells dissasembled, 340 criminally charged, one hundred and eighty five of whom have pleaded guilty or been convicted and over one hundred million dollars in funds from orgs supporting terrorists. 1000 new counter-terrorism and counter intelligence fbi agents and 66 new task forces.

[D Rice]

Ashcroft quote: about Pat Act
"constructed America's defense...the defense of life and liberty...upon a foundation of prevention, nurtured by cooperation, built on coordination and rooted in our Constitutional liberties"
It is our right to be protected and the Pat act gives the neccesary tools to the gov't to combat terror

[cthulu23]

Originally Posted by D Rice

What are your examples of how law enforcement has abused their powers in the past? I think it is obvious that the Patriot Act is working. 4 cells dissasembled, 340 criminally charged, one hundred and eighty five of whom have pleaded guilty or been convicted and over one hundred million dollars in funds from orgs supporting terrorists. 1000 new counter-terrorism and counter intelligence fbi agents and 66 new task forces.

Are all of those arrests really directly attributable to the Patriot Act?

Anyway, I'm too tired to go into very much detail, but look into Cointelpro or Operation Chaos for a small example of some of the illegal actions that I was referring to.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

My phones have been repeatedly tapped since I told a friend (over the phone) that I think Bush should be impeached if he is reelected. I heard the tap click in a few seconds after that, and I hear an identical sound most of the time while i'm on the phone. The sound is consistent with what I've heard when I tested wiretaps on my own phone line. Maybe the PATRIOT Act is what allows this, but I'm certainly concerned about privacy violations.

I would hope the justice department has better wire taps by now. Thats so 1970's. As most phone conversations are digital now, there is no need for the 'tip and ring' for wiretaping.

[Mephisto2]

I agree with Ustwo. It sounds a bit odd that you could "hear" a wire tap these days.

How can you be sure your line is being monitored?


Mr Mephisto

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by The_Dunedan

Senators and Representatives weren't allowed to rwad the thing before voting, they were simply told "vote on this thing NOW, dammit!" and did so.

I think this was explained in 'Hey Dude...' by Michael Moore. Basically the Act was written, distributed, and everyone had the chance to read it and make up their minds on whether or not to support it. Then it was radically changed the night before the vote and people voted without even knowing it had been changed. The Act incorporates many of the things the Project for the New American Century have been wanting to do for years, and they don't have the public's interest at heart - except that they want you to be scared, pliant and ruled over.

Since this was in M.Moore's book I'm sure some people won't want to believe it. I'm too busy to google for other sources now but if anyone can find what the changes were between the 2 versions I'd be very interested.

[scout]

Originally Posted by D Rice

Ashcroft quote: about Pat Act
"constructed America's defense...the defense of life and liberty...upon a foundation of prevention, nurtured by cooperation, built on coordination and rooted in our Constitutional liberties"
It is our right to be protected and the Pat act gives the neccesary tools to the gov't to combat terror

There are numerous court findings that find it's not necessarily the governments job to protect you. Technically, it's their responsibility to find the guilty parties after the crime has been committed and bring them to a fair justice. It's technically your responsbility to protect yourself.

[kd4]

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

I agree with Ustwo. It sounds a bit odd that you could "hear" a wire tap these days.

How can you be sure your line is being monitored?


Mr Mephisto

talk to the people listening and see what happens

[The_Dunedan]

D Rice:
Abuses in the past:
Waco, Ruby Ridge, MOVE-house bombing, COINTELPRO, railroading of Leonard Peltier and Eddie Chambers, assorted BATF&E clusterfucks, FBI monitoring MLK and other Civil Rights leaders, Joe McCarthy, Abner Louima case, do I really need to go on?

[Stompy]

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

I agree with Ustwo. It sounds a bit odd that you could "hear" a wire tap these days.

How can you be sure your line is being monitored?


Mr Mephisto

Don't talk on the phone, or use voice chat/instant messaging over an encrypted protocol.

[D Rice]

You tell me how i can have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness if i live under a dictator or am constantly being exposed to terror

[jimbob]

all democratic political systems are essentially short-term dictatorships. studying margaret thatcher's reign in the uk while we were living with the threat of IRA attacks wold be a good place to start if you want a proper answer. or were you being facetious?

and when were you last exposed to terror anyway?

[D Rice]

I was last exposed to terror when close to 3,000 people were murdered and the weeks and years following that i worried about it

[bling]

Originally Posted by D Rice

I was last exposed to terror when close to 3,000 people were murdered and the weeks and years following that i worried about it

I was last exposed to almost getting run over by a truck every time I crossed a street for my entire life.

But I still manage to brave the wilds of the streets of San Francisco. And all without a President, media or nation instilling a constant fear of crossing streets.

[daswig]

As a temporary measure, it's OK. I do wish it had a sunset clause in it.

[Undercover_Man]

It's just one more thing that takes away some of our rights...are rights are dwindling away...they say they'll take this away when the "war on terrorism" is over with but the fact is terrorism will ALWAYS be around...so don't expect to get your rights back anytime soon