Irishsean

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...na_1&printer=1

What is going on here? A lot of people are gonna be quite angry he has told a supposed ally of ours they are a part of a communist country!

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There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances.
Leon Trotsky

cthulu23

Only if those people somehow desire a war with China, which I tend to think of as a very bad thing. I understand what you're saying...it does seem counterintuitive coming from the Bush White House. In foreign policy matters, though, there are considerations much more important than ideological consistency. China doesn't invade Taiwan and we don't support their "independence." These are the semantic games that diplomacy requires.

SirSeymour

Exactly. And the Taiwanese understand this completely. It might surprise many here to know that a lot of Taiwanese believe in the unified China concept and consider themselves a province of mainland China. However, they value their democracy.

The relationship between Taiwan and the PRC is one of the most complex and complicated ever in the history of the world.

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Mephisto2

Funny. I thought of posting this story earlier today but didn't think anyone would be interested.

I think the law that requires the US to come to the defense of Taiwan, were it to be attacked, is a provocative hold-over from the anti-communist days of the Cold War.

Having said that, I have a strong dislike for the current government in China (ever since Tianamen Square) and do not support their claim on Taiwan or, for that matter Tibet.

Mr Mephisto

daswig

I am unwilling to sell a single person into slavery in order to maintain peace.

Somethings are simply wrong.

daswig

The Chinese Communists are still Communists, and the cold war still goes on. The players have changed, the game is still on, and we're losing it.

cthulu23

The Chinese may be despots, totalitarians or facists, but they definitely aren't communists any more. They are part of the WTO now and are making hand over fist exploiting their cheap labor pool. Can you really call a country communist when it has Nike factories in it?

Mephisto2

No they're not. In fact, they never were.

It's like the oft repeating accusation against the Soviets. They too were not communists and both knew and accepted as much.

Marxist, and specifically Leninist, political reasoning always stated that communism, true communism, was an end goal. Both Russia and China, even at the height of their powers, maintained that to achieve communism there was still a long struggle ahead. They maintained they were socialist states, working towards the "perfection" of a communist state.

That's one of the reasons the USSR was called the USSR (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics), and not the USCR (figure it out).

Splitting hairs perhaps, but true none the less.

And I think you're alone if you believe the Cold War is still being waged and the US is losing it. The Cold War was the military, social and economic struggle between the "West" (or capitalist powers) and the communist parties of the USSR and allies (those behind the Iron Curtain). The war was "won' when the Soviet Union collapsed. We can argue about how that occurred and whether Reagan should be praised as winning it for the West, but it certainly is no longer being fought.


Mr Mephisto

Mephisto2

Not too sure where the slavery comment comes in, but certainly I agree that the Chinese government and system leave a lot to be desired. I think I'm the only person left (to my knowledge) that still "boycotts" China for Tianemen Square. Up to and including refusing to go there on a business trip.

Mr Mephisto

daswig

The Chicoms are still in power, and still pay more than lip service to the (BAD) ideas of communism. They're still a totalitarian state, intent on becoming a superpower, and which believes that they rightfully should dominate the world (the so-called "middle kingdom" syndrome). Their human rights record isn't what's wrong with China, it's a single SYMPTOM of what's wrong with China. That's why Clinton's selling of technology with military applications to them was such a big deal. Remember the Recon plane that the chinese rammed and captured in '01? How about their building of a "blue-water" navy? YOU may think the cold war is over, but I don't, and far more importantly, the CHINESE don't.

"Better Dead than Red" isn't just a pithy slogan, it's a goal we should be actively working towards.

/no fan of communism or it's offshoots

daswig

The chinese communists are essentially slavers. Their citizens are slaves under their system. For example, their one child policy. That's not something that people who are to be considered even REMOTELY free should EVER have to endure. Not standing with Taiwan if they want our help to be independent from the communists would literally be selling the taiwanese into chattel slavery.


I still boycott all things chicom. Fuck'em.

Mephisto2

Wasn't it Nixon who opened up dialogue with the Chinese?

Mr Mephisto

cthulu23

Yep, the Chinese system is pretty fucked up and I can respect your boycott of goods manufactured by them. However, do you really advocate for military action against them? That is a war that no reasonable person that I know of wants to fight.

If you're worried about Taiwanese independence, as I stated in an earlier post, there is a game we play with the Chinese over Taiwan. The Chinese don't invade and we don't recognize Taiwanese independence. We both know that changing that stance could lead to a world war.

daswig

Ancient wise man say: "Easier to kill cub than full-grown wolf." I don't know about advocating a full-scale war with them, but spreading our national legs wide and WWIII are not the only options. We should stop buying goods from them, period. We should stop selling our debt to them, period. We need the jobs here more than we need access to their markets.

I'm worried about "mixed messages" being sent. I remember how Kuwait got invaded. They already view us as their national enemy. We've been involved with one shooting war with them (Korea) and another war where they aided our enemy (Vietnam). They're rapidly approaching the cusp where they can legitimately (not as in justifiably, but as in credibly) threaten Japan (and there's A LOT of emnity directed towards Japan....the Japanese may have forgotten Nanking, but trust me, the Chinese haven't.) They're trying to build a blue-water navy, which is a great big red flag waving that we seem to refuse to see. They took Tibet. They're making growling noises towards Taiwan. After they eat Taiwan, they're not going to suddenly say "We're full, thanks!"

daswig

Yup. I don't necessarily think it was the smartest thing for him to do, but hey, that's water long under the dam. There are 21 plus million people on Taiwan. We shouldn't be willing to trade them to China for anything.

cthulu23

China's entry into the WTO sealed their emergence into the global market. As a WTO member, we cannot boycott their products without being sanctioned ourselves. This is the global "free-market" system that both parties have worked so hard for. To bad democracy is not a prerequisite for entry....

There really is no parallel between pre-Gulf War I Iraq and China. The stakes are completely different. Only suicidally confident Americans would seek a direct military confrontation with China. As they are profiting wildly from despotic capitalism, I doubt that they will bite the hand that feeds any time soon.

As stated earlier, our stance on Taiwan is a semantic game. Everyone involved understands the necessity of it.

pan6467

China is defeating us by subsidizing their steel so that our is unaffordable. Taking factories and business away from us, stealing our patents,pirating our copyrighted materials, and the worst parts we are allowing them to buy up our national debt and we have a tremendous trade deficit with them. If they ever decided to go to collect their debts from us they would own us. They don't have to go to war with us we're selling our country to them piece by piece.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

daswig

Well, look at the bright side. We would always nationalize our resources/land ownership...

daswig

Appeasement of an enemy never makes things better.

cthulu23

This is an sounds like a nice, strong statement but it doesn't actually add anything to the discussion. What are you objecting to? Our stance on Taiwan? WTO membership for China? The entire world economic order that has normailized relations with them?

daswig

We should have done everything possible to keep them contained. Instead, we've opened our doors to them, despite criminal acts on their parts against us (don't get me started on the Norinco/Long Beach thing) allowing them access to all of the benefits of our system with none of the responsibilities.

Mephisto2

I believe the policy is one called "constructive engagement" (I may be wrong here), but the idea is that you "reward" China by working with them and they will slowly improve as they see the benefits of trading with the West.

It's a policy wholly supported by Bush.

Mr Mephisto

daswig

Ummm...Mephisto....I thought we already ascertained that IMHO Bush is as dumb as a bag of rocks, and the only reason I'm supporting him is because Kerry is so much worse?

Irishsean

Lets not get off topic here Daswig, try and keep the Bush or Kerry bashing to other threads where they belong.

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There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances.
Leon Trotsky