Palestinian War Crimes - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

George W Bush · 05-18-2003, 04:42 PM

More murders. How long is Israel going to be made to restrain itself from this insanity. I love the job my President is doing except with concerns to Israel. He stated during his campaim he would we would be Israels friend. Well we need to act like it.

If I were Jewish I'd go volunteer right now to fight that population of terrorists. Its hard for me to see this day after day. They just need to go back to where they belong. Get out of Jordan, Lebanon, and go back to Iran and Iraq. THat whole region belongs to the Jews. Why are they being so nice to people that have no business being there? And killing them on top of it?

Arafat stated on national television he was still in charge. I think the National hero and great mman Arial Sharon has been more than reasonable, its time to finish this. Or Palestinian war crimes will continue against a peaceful nation.

Does anyone think President Bush will give in if Arafat isnt taken out?

crumbbum · 05-18-2003, 04:43 PM

I agree with you for the most part, though I think most Israelis would be perfectly happy just to be left alone, and to have sovereignty as far as the Jordan. Then they wouldn no longer be in such a militarily precarious position, and would be able to relax for once.

That said, prepare to meet a lot of angry opposition.

crumbbum · 05-18-2003, 04:58 PM

BTW Arafat, having killed more Jews than anyone since Hitler, should be tried and executed by the Israelis, like Eichmann, in my opinion. The man is a monster.

SLM3 · 05-18-2003, 06:11 PM

Ya know, I was trying to think of which man is responsible for the most Palestinian deaths, but I just can't seem to narrow it down to one!

Sharon and his party don't want peace, that's obvious in their official objection to a Palestinian state. It makes me wonder who's not letting who relax.

crumbbum · 05-18-2003, 06:21 PM

In your opinion, why were the Palestinian refugees left in camps for 55 years? Considering the vast sums of money poured into the camps from the US, EU, UN, and Israel (but not the arab world, incidentally), why haven't living conditions improved?

Why did the Palestinians never demand a state or even autonomy before 1967 when the Egyptians and Jordanians controlled the territories?

If a state next to Israel is what the Palestinians want, then why was the PLO formed in 1964, before Israel controlled the West bank or gaza? What exactly did they plan on liberating?

If there IS a such thing as the Palestinian people, tell me about their history? How far does it go back? Is there a Palestinian language? Is there a unique Palestinian culture? Why is there hero and leader, Arafat, an Egyptian?

In 1948 the State of Israel absorbed nearly 700,000 refugees from the arab world. Why didn't anyone absorb the Palestinian arab refugees?

If the Palestinians have a historical tradition, then why is it that the Jews in Palestine were referred to as "Palestinians" before 1948?

If Israel is evil, and robbed the Palestinians of their homeland, and is an enemy, why do so many Palestinians depend on employment in Israel? Why are 20% of Israelis arabs?

I would like to see truthful answers to these questions.

My rebuttals about his comments about Sharon are in the "Israeli War Crimes?" thread.

Sun Tzu · 05-18-2003, 07:44 PM

OK its time I stick to the creative threads there’s allot to offer there. I'll continue to tell myself if I become agitated over what someone else says they then are controlling me. I see your post creation George as the Universes way to exercise and guide my mind and attitude through the skill and mastery of self control and that one should never take anything personally. So I say great job George!

Have you ever seen Deliverance?

afroclassics · 05-18-2003, 09:02 PM

i have read a lot of articles about this and what the mainstream news isnt saying is that right when the "new road map" was introduced although every other arab country supported the plan proposed by the american and european powers that be sharon and other powerful jews rejected it. The plans were attacked by Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League, Mortimer Zuckerman of the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations, James Tisch of the United Jewish Community, and by the Washington Institute, which has connections to the leading pro-Israel organization, the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee. AIPAC circulated a letter in Congress aimed at countering the road map by saying that the Palestinians bore the burden of achieving peace. NUmerous raids have left innocent people without homes and family members dead. Many of them children.

Think about this...

say the kurds of iraq who are pretty much a nation unto themselves where in good realarions with saddam but did not have land to call their own. THen a jewish state was formed on their land,without consent. and then their land kept getting smaller and smaller, with isreali tanks rolling through destroying your land. then you turn around and the land that was once yours is being turned into shopping malls. Everybody talks about jews did this and that with the land when the palestenians did nothing, but that shit costs money. and where did the jews get their money from... so your land is being taken more and more everyday. your mad. you have no weapons. so you throw rocks. you get shot. its hopeless til a few radical groups form that are willing to blow themselves up to save you. Would you be happy or sad, especially when your house got bull dozed, your neighbors family has been blown up because there was a supposed terrorist three blocks down, and your 14 year old son was shot in the head. i can say a lot more but damn...

seriously thing about what you would do

crumbbum · 05-18-2003, 09:56 PM

I would appreciate it if you would read the thread about the road map and the settlements. You are surprised that the arab countries approved the road map, but jewish leaders rejected it? It is the arab-Israeli conflict after all. No one is denying Palestinian hardship, but Israel is trying to defend its citizens from barbaric terror attacks- there is only one side in this conflict that deliberately targets civilians.

Seriously though, please read the thread, it will give you some historical context for this.

Mael · 05-18-2003, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by afroclassics

Think about this...

say the kurds of iraq who are pretty much a nation unto themselves where in good realarions with saddam but did not have land to call their own. THen a jewish state was formed on their land,without consent. and then their land kept getting smaller and smaller, with isreali tanks rolling through destroying your land. then you turn around and the land that was once yours is being turned into shopping malls. Everybody talks about jews did this and that with the land when the palestenians did nothing, but that shit costs money. and where did the jews get their money from... so your land is being taken more and more everyday. your mad. you have no weapons. so you throw rocks. you get shot. its hopeless til a few radical groups form that are willing to blow themselves up to save you. Would you be happy or sad, especially when your house got bull dozed, your neighbors family has been blown up because there was a supposed terrorist three blocks down, and your 14 year old son was shot in the head. i can say a lot more but damn...

seriously thing about what you would do

well, here's the thing... the analogy you made with the kurds, just doesn't really work. you're only talking about half of the situation. let me preface this by saying that i don't know the hard numbers, nor do i really care to take the time to look them up, so if someone else wants to, they can. when isreal became a state, some arabs did get displaced, but not all. so those who did end up leaving isreal to go live in the west bank. and from my understanding, the west bank and gaza, etc, did not belong to isreal at taht time. it became part of isreal after the 1967 war, a war in which the countries that controlled those area's participated in fought and lost in. as well as that, the palestinians decided to join in in those conflicts, and lost. i've read the history before to back that up, hopefully someone else will cite it or back it up, cause it's almost 3 am and i'm not in the mood to search.

now, my opinion is that the fact that isreal did not kick them off thier land or kill them all, i think they're being pretty nice.

also from what i understand, the violence that's been going on for the last 30 months or whatever it is started off with an attack on isreal. and then the back and forth goes on. and it seems to me, every time there's a lull in the fighting right now, it ends with a suicide bombing in tel aviv or on a bus.

i'm not going to really go into who i think is right or wrong, because frankly i don't care. i think that isreal has every right to do what they need to protect themselves. and in this age of terrorism which is supported by "borderless nations," they really can't be blamed for unfortunate collateral damage (unless intentional, which i don't think it is) when combating people who meet in the middle of neighborhoods, places were lots of people congregate.

and for the people who throw rocks at the isreali soldiers, that's just stupidity. hell, who in hell throws rocks at tanks or people with guns who have no problem considering you a threat? that's like me, a white man, going into the heart of harlem screaming racial slurs against black people. think i might get shot?

i might have more to say, but i'm kinda out of it.

Simple_Min · 05-20-2003, 05:51 AM

Finger pointing will not solve this (nor has it ever solved anything peacefully). That is what's happening out there in reality and that is what we are doing in here.

Both sides are still human beings and as such both are able to understand each other's concerns and if this shroud of hate and mis information can be removed it would fix everything. Both sides want more than the other is willing to accept, but as always there is a middle ground. Everyone knows what the answer is, but "me, mine, ours" empowers our ego.

I do realize my rant is not popular and isn't about to happen any time soon, if ever, but I believe that is the path to peace.

But what the hell did Isreal expect when it setup camp in a majority muslim region? Is "holy land" worth dozens of nukes the country has and almost daily bloodshed? My motto is "cherish what you cannot see by caring for what you can see."

Also, remember that one man's terrorist is another's liberator. You are quick to say you would volunteer to go fight "terrorists" but you do not understand what the "terrorist" is protesting. Also, the terrorist sees you as a opressor and a terrorist without understanding your concerns for safety and freedom.

crumbbum · 05-20-2003, 08:05 AM

"Also, remember that one man's terrorist is another's liberator. You are quick to say you would volunteer to go fight "terrorists" but you do not understand what the "terrorist" is protesting. Also, the terrorist sees you as a opressor and a terrorist without understanding your concerns for safety and freedom."

http://jewishworldreview.com/0503/te...003_05_18.php3

Do you consider this protesting?

Also, the region is not historically all muslim at all. It happened to have been controlled by the Ottomans for the last 800 years- but there was always a Jewish presence in the land. I also disagree with your contention that it is ego that keeps peace from being made- I don't think the Israeli have demonstrated themselves to be acting on emotion. They have been trying to defend their citizens as best they can. Keep in mind that any day, if Palestinian terror were to stop there would be peace. It is in their hands, and it isn't fair to "blame both sides equally"- while finger pointing, as you said, is often futile, this does not mean that responsibility should not be accepted for the things the parties really are responsible for.
There is no legitimate reason that there can't be one, tiny non-arab country in that part of the world. If coexistence is possible, then it should be there, I don't think the world should accept racism, xenophobia and hatred in the arab world as legitimate. It is a result of the backwards regimes controlling these countries, the total lack of economic development (though the leaders get rich on oil) and the controlled societies. Bush is very smart to have suggested a free trade zone in the Middle East- what the region needs is modernization, not concessions. The fundamentalist Islam that most terrorists practice is a war religion, in which concessions are seen as weakness. That's reality folks. There is no reason that Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians shouldn't be held to the same human and moral standards as the rest of the world. To expect morally less of people because of their ethnicity is racism.

crumbbum · 05-20-2003, 08:12 AM

BTW, the Palestine Liberation Organization, the umbrella organization of the various Palestinian terror groups, founded by Yasser Arafat, was founded in 1964. It's goal is the "liberation of Palestine". However, "Palestine" in this case is not a state in the West Bank and Gaza- the PLO formed 3 years before Israel controlled those areas. It is dedicated to the destruction of the State of Israel. The Palestinian Authority today is dominated by PLO figures. When it comes down to it, Israel is fighting to protect it's civilians from attack, whereas Palestinian terrorists are hoping to destroy Israel, and to extract concessions through blackmail. It isn't protest- it seeks a goal. Part of the PLO phased plan, which Arafat has referred to as the "1974 plan", is to establish an autonomous entity in part of the land west of the jordan, and then when the Arab armies attack again, this time they would have a territorial foothold sticking into the middle of Israel. Look at a map. That is the reason for the settlements- so that even if the Palestinians end up with a state, or the autonomy they have had until very recently, Israel still has "buffer zones", and is not in danger of destruction.

Lebell · 05-20-2003, 09:09 AM

I'm very happy to be reading all the well reasoned arguements.

Thanks everyone

Simple_Min · 05-20-2003, 09:31 AM

Again, I state: What good does it do to add fuel to the fire.

Peace is a far fetched goal for the people who do not even have sovereignty.

I thought this was interesting and worth mentioning...

http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

crumbbum · 05-20-2003, 02:03 PM

Sun Tzu posted the same link awhile back, in a debate we were having about the same topic. It must be noted that the refusers are a very small group, only a little over 500 reservists, in an army of almost 200,000. Also, in general, the Israeli morale is very high right now. When the reservists were called up awhile back after the seder bombing in Netanya, that killed 29 people, including Holocaust survivors, there was a 95% mobilization rate. The refusers have certainly gotten a lot of publicity though. I've read their site, and they feel squeamish about what they have to do inthe army with regard to administering Palestinian areas, and the curfews, etc. that Israel carries out while fighting terror. It isn't pretty, but the Israelis don't really have much choice as long as they're under attack. They wanted to keep the army out after Oslo, when the Palestinians were granted autonomy, but they don't have the option at the moment.

crumbbum · 05-20-2003, 02:08 PM

Israel didn't send the army back into the territories until the bombings got out of control. At this point, Palestinian sovereignty would lead to a terror state, and it would undountedly gather the makings of a real army, if not WMD with which to attack Israel. As long as the hatred runs so deep, the PA(as it exists now, of PLO members) rules, there is no free speech, and the education system and media incite hatred and violence, Palestinian soveignty would be a disaster, for them, for Israel, and for the rest of the world. Real reform and liberalization is needed, so that free thought can take hold, and dreams of the destruction of Israel die, so that life can go on, not dominated by hatred and jealousy.

crumbbum · 05-20-2003, 02:12 PM

What were you referring to as adding fuel to the fire? I wasn't sure what you meant.

Simple_Min · 05-21-2003, 10:33 AM

I was/am referring to this thread.

Sun Tzu · 05-21-2003, 02:08 PM

I open and formally apologize to crumbbum about listing a quote that I presented as his. I have edited since taking off the quote. I want crumbbum to know it was not intentional and will be more careful in the future when quoting his and other members statements.

To any that read this Crumbbum did not post "Also, remember that one man's terrorist is another's liberator." he was responding to another members use of the quote. I want crumbbum to be aware I'm not trying to smear him nor would I with any other member. I don’t feel focusing my energy to do such a thing would lead me in a positive direction. I will however defend my position with zero hesitation if ever accused of spreading propaganda as such is absurdity. I hope everyone has an excellent day

Sticky · 05-28-2003, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SLM3
Ya know, I was trying to think of which man is responsible for the most Palestinian deaths, but I just can't seem to narrow it down to one!

Sharon and his party don't want peace, that's obvious in their official objection to a Palestinian state. It makes me wonder who's not letting who relax.

SLM3 I wonder if recent news on Isreali and Palestinian positions towards the road map have begun to make you even start reconsidering who really wants peace.

Excerpt from AP article http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...he_new_sharon_
"No one knows for certain if Sharon truly has become a born-again peace-seeker, or whether he remains the same old wolf in sheep's clothing," Shalev wrote in the Maariv daily Tuesday.

The latest chapter of Sharon's seeming transformation began Friday, when he reluctantly accepted, with a string of reservations, the U.S.-backed "road map" plan that envisages the creation of a Palestinian state by 2005.
Two days later, he convinced his hawkish Cabinet to conditionally endorse the deal.

On Monday, he faced down angry hardliners in his Likud Party with remarks that stunned many Israelis.

"To keep 3.5 million people under occupation is bad for us and them," he said. "This can't continue endlessly." 

Excerpt from another AP article http://www.canada.com/search/story.a...c-71bf0bfcfbbf
JERUSALEM (AP) - A message from Palestinian President Yasser Arafat that he, not his new prime minister, is in charge of peace talks with Israel has thrown a planned Israeli-Palestinian summit into confusion...

...A member of the PLO executive, speaking on condition of anonymity, explained that the jockeying for position was Arafat's way of telling the United States, Israel and Abbas that Arafat makes the decisions over negotiations with Israel, using the PLO executive to make the point.

hiredgun · 05-28-2003, 04:00 PM

You know, I used to attack Israel very harshly in these threads, mostly on other forums. Since then I've unfortunately become less optimistic... neither side's leadership really wants peace. There's no way you can justify the brutality of last year's "incursions", that Sharon led, and Sharon should have been tried for war crimes years ago (the "butcher of beirut" incident)... at the very least, having this dyed-in-the-wool hawk as their leader does not do much for israel's image around the world, which is pretty bad outside of the US. Then again, even if Arafat wants peace (I'll be honest, I can't prove that, and I guess no one hear can...), his reputation and his past are bad enough that it doesn't really matter.

This conflict will never end because the ones who will benefit from peace are not the ones in power.

Lebell · 05-28-2003, 05:28 PM

I see the real question as being:

Can the Palestinians and the Isrealis who want peace prevail over the Palestinians and Isrealis who do not want peace.

Sticky · 05-28-2003, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hiredgun
This conflict will never end because the ones who will benefit from peace are not the ones in power.

hiredgun, how can you say that. In a democracy it is the people that are in power. The people will surely benefit from peace.

lebell, I think you are right.

Dragonlich · 05-28-2003, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sticky
hiredgun, how can you say that. In a democracy it is the people that are in power. The people will surely benefit from peace.

Aaaaww... that's so cute.

Nope, in a democracy it's the *people in power* that are in power. The rest of the people are persuaded, one way or another, to support this select group. Democracy doesn't work as advertised when many of it's citizens are too stupid or ignorant to keep their government in check.

Sticky · 05-29-2003, 07:41 AM

Dragonlich, the peoples votes in a country like Israel are more influential then votes in the U.S.

In the U.S. that governing party and head of state, once elected, are basically in their positions until the end of their terms. This means that a vote is only influential once.

In Isreal, a much wider range of parties are elected to the Knesset (parliament). Most often, in order to form a government a coalition is required. This results in voters (different coalition parties) having infulence in every decision made by the coalition. While this often slows the goverment down, it does ensure that the different minority voices are heard.
The downfall to coalitions, i must admit, is that sometimes a small party (representing a minority) can effect the decision of the coalition.

All I am trying to say is that a democracy elects its leaders and has to answer to its leaders.

homerhop · 05-29-2003, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
I see the real question as being:

Can the Palestinians and the Isrealis who want peace prevail over the Palestinians and Isrealis who do not want peace.

No they can't. As I have said in other threads before all you have to do is look at the politics here in Northern Ireland and everything that has gone on to find peaceful solutions, the same as they are trying in between the Isrealis and Palestinians, and it is those who do not want peace unless it is on their terms and only their terms who are preventing a peaceful solution

Dragonlich · 05-29-2003, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sticky
In Isreal, a much wider range of parties are elected to the Knesset (parliament). Most often, in order to form a government a coalition is required. This results in voters (different coalition parties) having infulence in every decision made by the coalition. While this often slows the goverment down, it does ensure that the different minority voices are heard.
The downfall to coalitions, i must admit, is that sometimes a small party (representing a minority) can effect the decision of the coalition.

All I am trying to say is that a democracy elects its leaders and has to answer to its leaders.

We have a very similar system here in the Netherlands, and it's not as democratic as you seem to believe. After all, you still vote for a party, which has it's own goals, principles and career politicians and their egos. You choose the party you feel comfortable with, or rather a friendly-looking politician part of that party. This party then forms a coalition you might *not* be comfortable with, and implements measures you might not support. Next time, you choose a different party, and the resulting policies are still not to your liking... Compromises lead to disappointments for many voters; voter apathy is the result, and the democracy suffers.

05-18-2003, 04:42 PM	#1 (permalink)
George W Bush Tilted Location: The Great Lone Star State	Palestinian War Crimes More murders. How long is Israel going to be made to restrain itself from this insanity. I love the job my President is doing except with concerns to Israel. He stated during his campaim he would we would be Israels friend. Well we need to act like it. If I were Jewish I'd go volunteer right now to fight that population of terrorists. Its hard for me to see this day after day. They just need to go back to where they belong. Get out of Jordan, Lebanon, and go back to Iran and Iraq. THat whole region belongs to the Jews. Why are they being so nice to people that have no business being there? And killing them on top of it? Arafat stated on national television he was still in charge. I think the National hero and great mman Arial Sharon has been more than reasonable, its time to finish this. Or Palestinian war crimes will continue against a peaceful nation. Does anyone think President Bush will give in if Arafat isnt taken out? __________________ "Rarely is the question asked: is our children learning" "You teach a child to read and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test."

05-18-2003, 04:43 PM	#2 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	I agree with you for the most part, though I think most Israelis would be perfectly happy just to be left alone, and to have sovereignty as far as the Jordan. Then they wouldn no longer be in such a militarily precarious position, and would be able to relax for once. That said, prepare to meet a lot of angry opposition. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies. Last edited by crumbbum; 05-18-2003 at 04:56 PM..

05-18-2003, 04:58 PM	#3 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	BTW Arafat, having killed more Jews than anyone since Hitler, should be tried and executed by the Israelis, like Eichmann, in my opinion. The man is a monster. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

05-18-2003, 06:21 PM	#5 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	In your opinion, why were the Palestinian refugees left in camps for 55 years? Considering the vast sums of money poured into the camps from the US, EU, UN, and Israel (but not the arab world, incidentally), why haven't living conditions improved? Why did the Palestinians never demand a state or even autonomy before 1967 when the Egyptians and Jordanians controlled the territories? If a state next to Israel is what the Palestinians want, then why was the PLO formed in 1964, before Israel controlled the West bank or gaza? What exactly did they plan on liberating? If there IS a such thing as the Palestinian people, tell me about their history? How far does it go back? Is there a Palestinian language? Is there a unique Palestinian culture? Why is there hero and leader, Arafat, an Egyptian? In 1948 the State of Israel absorbed nearly 700,000 refugees from the arab world. Why didn't anyone absorb the Palestinian arab refugees? If the Palestinians have a historical tradition, then why is it that the Jews in Palestine were referred to as "Palestinians" before 1948? If Israel is evil, and robbed the Palestinians of their homeland, and is an enemy, why do so many Palestinians depend on employment in Israel? Why are 20% of Israelis arabs? I would like to see truthful answers to these questions. My rebuttals about his comments about Sharon are in the "Israeli War Crimes?" thread. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

05-18-2003, 07:44 PM	#6 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	OK its time I stick to the creative threads there’s allot to offer there. I'll continue to tell myself if I become agitated over what someone else says they then are controlling me. I see your post creation George as the Universes way to exercise and guide my mind and attitude through the skill and mastery of self control and that one should never take anything personally. So I say great job George! Have you ever seen Deliverance? __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

05-18-2003, 06:11 PM	#4 (permalink)
SLM3 Insane	Ya know, I was trying to think of which man is responsible for the most Palestinian deaths, but I just can't seem to narrow it down to one! Sharon and his party don't want peace, that's obvious in their official objection to a Palestinian state. It makes me wonder who's not letting who relax.

05-18-2003, 09:02 PM	#7 (permalink)
afroclassics Upright	i have read a lot of articles about this and what the mainstream news isnt saying is that right when the "new road map" was introduced although every other arab country supported the plan proposed by the american and european powers that be sharon and other powerful jews rejected it. The plans were attacked by Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League, Mortimer Zuckerman of the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations, James Tisch of the United Jewish Community, and by the Washington Institute, which has connections to the leading pro-Israel organization, the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee. AIPAC circulated a letter in Congress aimed at countering the road map by saying that the Palestinians bore the burden of achieving peace. NUmerous raids have left innocent people without homes and family members dead. Many of them children. Think about this... say the kurds of iraq who are pretty much a nation unto themselves where in good realarions with saddam but did not have land to call their own. THen a jewish state was formed on their land,without consent. and then their land kept getting smaller and smaller, with isreali tanks rolling through destroying your land. then you turn around and the land that was once yours is being turned into shopping malls. Everybody talks about jews did this and that with the land when the palestenians did nothing, but that shit costs money. and where did the jews get their money from... so your land is being taken more and more everyday. your mad. you have no weapons. so you throw rocks. you get shot. its hopeless til a few radical groups form that are willing to blow themselves up to save you. Would you be happy or sad, especially when your house got bull dozed, your neighbors family has been blown up because there was a supposed terrorist three blocks down, and your 14 year old son was shot in the head. i can say a lot more but damn... seriously thing about what you would do

05-18-2003, 09:56 PM	#8 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	I would appreciate it if you would read the thread about the road map and the settlements. You are surprised that the arab countries approved the road map, but jewish leaders rejected it? It is the arab-Israeli conflict after all. No one is denying Palestinian hardship, but Israel is trying to defend its citizens from barbaric terror attacks- there is only one side in this conflict that deliberately targets civilians. Seriously though, please read the thread, it will give you some historical context for this. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

05-20-2003, 05:51 AM	#10 (permalink)
Simple_Min Insane Location: The Local Group	Finger pointing will not solve this (nor has it ever solved anything peacefully). That is what's happening out there in reality and that is what we are doing in here. Both sides are still human beings and as such both are able to understand each other's concerns and if this shroud of hate and mis information can be removed it would fix everything. Both sides want more than the other is willing to accept, but as always there is a middle ground. Everyone knows what the answer is, but "me, mine, ours" empowers our ego. I do realize my rant is not popular and isn't about to happen any time soon, if ever, but I believe that is the path to peace. But what the hell did Isreal expect when it setup camp in a majority muslim region? Is "holy land" worth dozens of nukes the country has and almost daily bloodshed? My motto is "cherish what you cannot see by caring for what you can see." Also, remember that one man's terrorist is another's liberator. You are quick to say you would volunteer to go fight "terrorists" but you do not understand what the "terrorist" is protesting. Also, the terrorist sees you as a opressor and a terrorist without understanding your concerns for safety and freedom. __________________ If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. Last edited by Simple_Min; 05-20-2003 at 05:56 AM..

05-20-2003, 08:05 AM	#11 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	"Also, remember that one man's terrorist is another's liberator. You are quick to say you would volunteer to go fight "terrorists" but you do not understand what the "terrorist" is protesting. Also, the terrorist sees you as a opressor and a terrorist without understanding your concerns for safety and freedom." http://jewishworldreview.com/0503/te...003_05_18.php3 Do you consider this protesting? Also, the region is not historically all muslim at all. It happened to have been controlled by the Ottomans for the last 800 years- but there was always a Jewish presence in the land. I also disagree with your contention that it is ego that keeps peace from being made- I don't think the Israeli have demonstrated themselves to be acting on emotion. They have been trying to defend their citizens as best they can. Keep in mind that any day, if Palestinian terror were to stop there would be peace. It is in their hands, and it isn't fair to "blame both sides equally"- while finger pointing, as you said, is often futile, this does not mean that responsibility should not be accepted for the things the parties really are responsible for. There is no legitimate reason that there can't be one, tiny non-arab country in that part of the world. If coexistence is possible, then it should be there, I don't think the world should accept racism, xenophobia and hatred in the arab world as legitimate. It is a result of the backwards regimes controlling these countries, the total lack of economic development (though the leaders get rich on oil) and the controlled societies. Bush is very smart to have suggested a free trade zone in the Middle East- what the region needs is modernization, not concessions. The fundamentalist Islam that most terrorists practice is a war religion, in which concessions are seen as weakness. That's reality folks. There is no reason that Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians shouldn't be held to the same human and moral standards as the rest of the world. To expect morally less of people because of their ethnicity is racism. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

05-20-2003, 08:12 AM	#12 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	BTW, the Palestine Liberation Organization, the umbrella organization of the various Palestinian terror groups, founded by Yasser Arafat, was founded in 1964. It's goal is the "liberation of Palestine". However, "Palestine" in this case is not a state in the West Bank and Gaza- the PLO formed 3 years before Israel controlled those areas. It is dedicated to the destruction of the State of Israel. The Palestinian Authority today is dominated by PLO figures. When it comes down to it, Israel is fighting to protect it's civilians from attack, whereas Palestinian terrorists are hoping to destroy Israel, and to extract concessions through blackmail. It isn't protest- it seeks a goal. Part of the PLO phased plan, which Arafat has referred to as the "1974 plan", is to establish an autonomous entity in part of the land west of the jordan, and then when the Arab armies attack again, this time they would have a territorial foothold sticking into the middle of Israel. Look at a map. That is the reason for the settlements- so that even if the Palestinians end up with a state, or the autonomy they have had until very recently, Israel still has "buffer zones", and is not in danger of destruction. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

05-20-2003, 09:09 AM	#13 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I'm very happy to be reading all the well reasoned arguements. Thanks everyone __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

05-20-2003, 09:31 AM	#14 (permalink)
Simple_Min Insane Location: The Local Group	Again, I state: What good does it do to add fuel to the fire. Peace is a far fetched goal for the people who do not even have sovereignty. I thought this was interesting and worth mentioning... http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp __________________ If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

05-20-2003, 02:03 PM	#15 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	Sun Tzu posted the same link awhile back, in a debate we were having about the same topic. It must be noted that the refusers are a very small group, only a little over 500 reservists, in an army of almost 200,000. Also, in general, the Israeli morale is very high right now. When the reservists were called up awhile back after the seder bombing in Netanya, that killed 29 people, including Holocaust survivors, there was a 95% mobilization rate. The refusers have certainly gotten a lot of publicity though. I've read their site, and they feel squeamish about what they have to do inthe army with regard to administering Palestinian areas, and the curfews, etc. that Israel carries out while fighting terror. It isn't pretty, but the Israelis don't really have much choice as long as they're under attack. They wanted to keep the army out after Oslo, when the Palestinians were granted autonomy, but they don't have the option at the moment. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

05-20-2003, 02:08 PM	#16 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	Israel didn't send the army back into the territories until the bombings got out of control. At this point, Palestinian sovereignty would lead to a terror state, and it would undountedly gather the makings of a real army, if not WMD with which to attack Israel. As long as the hatred runs so deep, the PA(as it exists now, of PLO members) rules, there is no free speech, and the education system and media incite hatred and violence, Palestinian soveignty would be a disaster, for them, for Israel, and for the rest of the world. Real reform and liberalization is needed, so that free thought can take hold, and dreams of the destruction of Israel die, so that life can go on, not dominated by hatred and jealousy. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

05-20-2003, 02:12 PM	#17 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	What were you referring to as adding fuel to the fire? I wasn't sure what you meant. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

05-21-2003, 10:33 AM	#18 (permalink)
Simple_Min Insane Location: The Local Group	I was/am referring to this thread. __________________ If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

05-21-2003, 02:08 PM	#19 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	I open and formally apologize to crumbbum about listing a quote that I presented as his. I have edited since taking off the quote. I want crumbbum to know it was not intentional and will be more careful in the future when quoting his and other members statements. To any that read this Crumbbum did not post "Also, remember that one man's terrorist is another's liberator." he was responding to another members use of the quote. I want crumbbum to be aware I'm not trying to smear him nor would I with any other member. I don’t feel focusing my energy to do such a thing would lead me in a positive direction. I will however defend my position with zero hesitation if ever accused of spreading propaganda as such is absurdity. I hope everyone has an excellent day __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

05-28-2003, 04:00 PM	#21 (permalink)
hiredgun Addict	You know, I used to attack Israel very harshly in these threads, mostly on other forums. Since then I've unfortunately become less optimistic... neither side's leadership really wants peace. There's no way you can justify the brutality of last year's "incursions", that Sharon led, and Sharon should have been tried for war crimes years ago (the "butcher of beirut" incident)... at the very least, having this dyed-in-the-wool hawk as their leader does not do much for israel's image around the world, which is pretty bad outside of the US. Then again, even if Arafat wants peace (I'll be honest, I can't prove that, and I guess no one hear can...), his reputation and his past are bad enough that it doesn't really matter. This conflict will never end because the ones who will benefit from peace are not the ones in power.

05-28-2003, 05:28 PM	#22 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I see the real question as being: Can the Palestinians and the Isrealis who want peace prevail over the Palestinians and Isrealis who do not want peace. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

05-29-2003, 07:41 AM	#25 (permalink)
Sticky	<b>Dragonlich</b>, the peoples votes in a country like Israel are more influential then votes in the U.S. In the U.S. that governing party and head of state, once elected, are basically in their positions until the end of their terms. This means that a vote is only influential once. In Isreal, a much wider range of parties are elected to the Knesset (parliament). Most often, in order to form a government a coalition is required. This results in voters (different coalition parties) having infulence in every decision made by the coalition. While this often slows the goverment down, it does ensure that the different minority voices are heard. The downfall to coalitions, i must admit, is that sometimes a small party (representing a minority) can effect the decision of the coalition. All I am trying to say is that a democracy elects its leaders and has to answer to its leaders. __________________ Sticky The Stickman