Things That Can Be Said About America - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Four Fingers · 09-24-2004, 09:41 AM

Many things can be said about America, good and bad. And naturally at different times, different people are going to focus on different things about this good and bad America. But perhaps any person who realizes this and yearns to see the wider image, owes it to himself to consider the other things; the things that he doesn’t normally focus on; the things – the thoughts - that once governed public opinion, but now they are mostly forgotten. No matter how you see America, take a moment and read this. It’ll take you five minutes, but its value might turn out to be much more.

The people who built America - not the old politicians, I’m talking about the hard-working men and women who defined America in its early days – they had certain ideals that motivated them. They didn’t toil because someone forced them to do so. They didn’t sweat for their survival. They worked because they thought they were creating something, and this something was very important to them. What those Americans sweated and toiled for was FREEDOM. America promised people FREEDOM. Now, you might not think much of this freedom. In fact you might choose to open an album with pictures of the great depression, and then laugh at the thought of this puny value of freedom. But for these people, freedom was more than a weird fetish or a catchy slogan. It was their life’s creation, their great wonder of the world.

People like to think that most of the people who immigrated to America were fleeing criminals or greedy men seeking treasures. But in reality those outlaws and treasure-seekers represented but a small minority of the people who in fact populated America. Many of the British North American colonies that eventually formed the United States of America were settled in the seventeenth century by men and women, who, in the face of European persecution, refused to compromise passionately held religious convictions and fled Europe. The New England colonies, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Maryland were conceived and established "as plantations of religion." Some settlers who arrived in these areas came for secular motives - "to catch fish" as one famous New Englander put it - but the great majority left Europe to worship God in the way they believed to be correct. They enthusiastically supported the efforts of their leaders to create "a city on a hill" or a "holy experiment," whose success would prove that God's plan for his churches could be successfully realized in the American wilderness. Even colonies like Virginia, which were planned as commercial ventures, were led by entrepreneurs who considered themselves "militant Protestants" and who worked diligently to promote the prosperity of the church.

And it wasn’t only religion that formed the American population. In the middle of the 19th century hundreds of thousands of Irishmen escaped the poverty of their country and moved to the land of opportunities, where everyone’s got a chance. Around the same time, the terrible state of Poland, both political and economical, drove two million Poles to immigrate to America. Then, in 1880, Italy’s troubled economy, crop failures, and political climate began the start of mass immigration with nearly four million Italian immigrants arriving in the United States. And at the end of the century, the growing intolerance towards Jews in the world pushed many Jews to find refugee in America.

In the 20th century, immigration has become even more prominent. Millions left their homes in the Americas, looking for new lives in the United States. Millions fled Russia and other ex-Soviet Union states with the knowledge that in America they had a better chance of actualizing their potential. And now, thousands of Iranians and Arabs look for a way to escape the Middle East, which is plagued with fundamentalism and terror. To them, the American border marks the place where fear is replaced with hope.

Long before Lenin and Mao Tesung, there was Robert Owen. Owen was a venture-capitalist socialist. He was British. He was extremely talented and so were his sons. He believed that he could create a socialist village so flourishing that everybody would like to build a similar village. This admirable person didn’t think he knew better than everybody else. He wasn’t ready to kidnap a country and force his ideology upon it. Instead, he moved to America, which gave him sufficient FREEDOM to experiment with his ideas. There he founded New Harmony. New Harmony functioned like a real Kibbutz. People were given equal food and services, in exchange for unequal labor. He hoped that this place will prove to Americans that their “individual selfish system” can easily be replaced with a socialist heaven. Owen invested a lot of his fortune in the experiment, but regrettably it failed – and a few years after its founding.

What is truly fascinating about this story, though, is what happened to his sons. One served for two terms in the U.S. House of Representatives, and later became secretary of the Freedman’s Bureau. Another one became the state geologist of Indiana and Arkansas, and then the head of the U.S. Geological Survey. The last one, Richard Owen, was the first president of Purdue University. He wrote about America:

“Here amid nature’s wild, human hope expanded, a new regime was founded, and America took up her appointed mission of exemplifying to the world the inalienable rights of man.”

His father yearned to show Americans that America was rotten. Ironically, his family’s greatest achievement was showing the world the magnificence of America.

To those outside of America, I will say – let it be. Even if you don’t like America the way it is, let it be. Respect the sweat and toil of its founders. Respect it and let it be. And to Americans, I will say: Vote for Bush. Vote for Bush if you too can see its magnificence.

powerclown · 09-24-2004, 10:15 AM

Great read!
Ill say this: It's one hell of an historical phenomenon.

clavus · 09-24-2004, 10:32 AM

I was right there with you until that last line.

Shouldn't this nonsequiter Pro-Bush post be in Tilted Politics?

Four Fingers · 09-24-2004, 10:38 AM

Well, it's more about history than politics. I'll gladly edit the end if it bothers you.

bacon_masta · 09-24-2004, 10:41 AM

really excellent ideas, i enjoyed the read, but i'm not sure how the obviously unique and admirable construction of the United States through the sweat and blood of the common man really relates to the obviously big-business based economic and political approaches that are being enacted in this country now. a vote for bush is a vote AGAINST the ideals that this country was founded on. the bush "regime" has strengthened the religious intolerance and fundamentalism many people fled to america to escape. yes, this is a great country, but bush's ideals and actions have not been directed in the same way; he talks out of one side of his mouth and issues orders from the other that are contradictory to the beliefs and freedoms this country was based on. i really enjoyed the post, and i hope this won't be taken as an attempt to flame or discredit anyone's personal beliefs, but i don't think bush has done anything to build on, or even support the basic fundamental freedoms america is founded on.

Rdr4evr · 09-24-2004, 10:54 AM

It was all fine and dandy until I read the last line.

Four Fingers · 09-24-2004, 11:01 AM

Increased centralization and more economical regulation are the things that hurt the true spirit of America most. I don't agree with everyhing that Bush does, and frankly I don't think you can find a president with whom you'll agree on every single issue. But there is one common thing I can see in all of Bush's actions, and that is enough for me. I see him fighting centralization and government intervention: more control to local communities, schools with personalized curricula that actually care what the parents think, less taxes and less federalwide programs. And I see this cherished idealism in him, something America greatly missed. He knows what America stands for.

Bill O'Rights · 09-24-2004, 11:02 AM

Very interesting. I liked it a lot. But...what in the sam hill does George W. Bush have to do with any of it?

Show me why this doesn't belong in politics. Otherwise I'm moving it.

Four Fingers · 09-24-2004, 11:07 AM

I guess it's too late to un-politicize it, so perhaps it would be best to move it there.

cthulu23 · 09-24-2004, 12:53 PM

Bush may be a pseudo fiscal conservative (huge deficits and the formation of a new branch of government are not typical conservative virtues), but he definitely believes in more government interference in social issues, a la abortion, drug issues, more police, more restrictions on personal liberty, greater surveillance of the public, less right-to-know for the public and a host of other issues that strain his identity as a traditional "conservative." I could have named quite a few more, but I hope that my point has been made.

hybris · 09-24-2004, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Four Fingers

To those outside of America, I will say – let it be. Even if you don’t like America the way it is, let it be. Respect the sweat and toil of its founders. Respect it and let it be.

I don't quite see what respect for the founders has to do with agreeing (or not) with certain aspects of modern-day America...?

ARTelevision · 09-24-2004, 01:24 PM

You broke the good spell you had cast with the last lines.
Quite unnecessary.

smooth · 09-24-2004, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Four Fingers

Increased centralization and more economical regulation are the things that hurt the true spirit of America most. I don't agree with everyhing that Bush does, and frankly I don't think you can find a president with whom you'll agree on every single issue. But there is one common thing I can see in all of Bush's actions, and that is enough for me. I see him fighting centralization and government intervention: more control to local communities, schools with personalized curricula that actually care what the parents think, less taxes and less federalwide programs. And I see this cherished idealism in him, something America greatly missed. He knows what America stands for.

I don't understand how you reconcile your statement that bush is opposed to centralization and intervention when he is currently folding various intelligence and law enforcement agencies together, placing various federal bureaucratic organizations under umbrella agencies, and using government power to limit free market exchange (e.g., importing drugs from Canada, steel tariffs, scientific research, and individual decisions to marry whom one pleases).

Schwarzenegger is doing similar folding of government agencies into large umbrella agencies in California. This centralization of bureaucracies is a staple of modern capitalism and the Republican party.

How do you argue that Bush is opposed to it when his and his party's actions show otherwise?

analog · 09-24-2004, 05:34 PM

Wow, can't believe I saw that coming. It was at least tolerable until that last line... and now that I know you wrote and posted that whole thing so you could drop the shrub's name, i don't care about any of it.

Willravel · 09-24-2004, 07:08 PM

Ahahahahaha, good one!
I'm sure someone as intelligent as yourself can easily see that Bush is pro Pax Americana. The Imperial Americas are something that stands in stark contrast to the original dream of our beautiful country. I don't know if you watched things like the Bay of Pigs, Waco Texas, or the Second Gulf War, but it is apparent that we need to protect America and "the sweat and toil of its founders". Bush (while obviously not responsible for the Bay of Pigs or Waco) stands in the way of moving forward. Organizations like the PNAC, backing and leading our president not-elect, are turning the bow of the country against the waters of progress. I suggest for everyone to study in great detail all three presidential candidates before voting. Our singular responsibility as citizens is to choose the representatives that will help our country to grow, flourish, and progress. Bush, according to my research, is not one of these representatives.
Also, socialism, communism, totalitarianism for that matter are forms of government. Owens did not "yearn[ed] to show Americans that America was rotten", he was simply a firm believer in humanity. His faith may have been misplaced, but let's leave him alone.

pedro padilla · 09-26-2004, 09:35 PM

Damn, you´re very good. I think there´s a huge well paying market for your talents these days. Sweeping statements covering the scope of all the supposed morals and values that we, as Americans, sincerely believe in our hearts. A country built by immigrants. Sweating, fighting and dying for the ideals we hold so dear.
Religious tolerance and respect for your fellow man. Freedom from predjudices and the right to express our beliefs without fear of reprisal. A system of justice based on the presumption of innocence until proven otherwise.
What I don´t understand is how the fuck George Bush´s name entered the picture.
Good comedy though. I give it a 4.

analog · 09-26-2004, 10:08 PM

MOD NOTE:

This thread was never a discussion to begin with. Threads in Politics are not used to soapbox about a candidate.

Thread closed.

09-24-2004, 09:41 AM	#1 (permalink)
Four Fingers Crazy	Things That Can Be Said About America Many things can be said about America, good and bad. And naturally at different times, different people are going to focus on different things about this good and bad America. But perhaps any person who realizes this and yearns to see the wider image, owes it to himself to consider the other things; the things that he doesn’t normally focus on; the things – the thoughts - that once governed public opinion, but now they are mostly forgotten. No matter how you see America, take a moment and read this. It’ll take you five minutes, but its value might turn out to be much more. The people who built America - not the old politicians, I’m talking about the hard-working men and women who defined America in its early days – they had certain ideals that motivated them. They didn’t toil because someone forced them to do so. They didn’t sweat for their survival. They worked because they thought they were creating something, and this something was very important to them. What those Americans sweated and toiled for was FREEDOM. America promised people FREEDOM. Now, you might not think much of this freedom. In fact you might choose to open an album with pictures of the great depression, and then laugh at the thought of this puny value of freedom. But for these people, freedom was more than a weird fetish or a catchy slogan. It was their life’s creation, their great wonder of the world. People like to think that most of the people who immigrated to America were fleeing criminals or greedy men seeking treasures. But in reality those outlaws and treasure-seekers represented but a small minority of the people who in fact populated America. Many of the British North American colonies that eventually formed the United States of America were settled in the seventeenth century by men and women, who, in the face of European persecution, refused to compromise passionately held religious convictions and fled Europe. The New England colonies, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Maryland were conceived and established "as plantations of religion." Some settlers who arrived in these areas came for secular motives - "to catch fish" as one famous New Englander put it - but the great majority left Europe to worship God in the way they believed to be correct. They enthusiastically supported the efforts of their leaders to create "a city on a hill" or a "holy experiment," whose success would prove that God's plan for his churches could be successfully realized in the American wilderness. Even colonies like Virginia, which were planned as commercial ventures, were led by entrepreneurs who considered themselves "militant Protestants" and who worked diligently to promote the prosperity of the church. And it wasn’t only religion that formed the American population. In the middle of the 19th century hundreds of thousands of Irishmen escaped the poverty of their country and moved to the land of opportunities, where everyone’s got a chance. Around the same time, the terrible state of Poland, both political and economical, drove two million Poles to immigrate to America. Then, in 1880, Italy’s troubled economy, crop failures, and political climate began the start of mass immigration with nearly four million Italian immigrants arriving in the United States. And at the end of the century, the growing intolerance towards Jews in the world pushed many Jews to find refugee in America. In the 20th century, immigration has become even more prominent. Millions left their homes in the Americas, looking for new lives in the United States. Millions fled Russia and other ex-Soviet Union states with the knowledge that in America they had a better chance of actualizing their potential. And now, thousands of Iranians and Arabs look for a way to escape the Middle East, which is plagued with fundamentalism and terror. To them, the American border marks the place where fear is replaced with hope. Long before Lenin and Mao Tesung, there was Robert Owen. Owen was a venture-capitalist socialist. He was British. He was extremely talented and so were his sons. He believed that he could create a socialist village so flourishing that everybody would like to build a similar village. This admirable person didn’t think he knew better than everybody else. He wasn’t ready to kidnap a country and force his ideology upon it. Instead, he moved to America, which gave him sufficient FREEDOM to experiment with his ideas. There he founded New Harmony. New Harmony functioned like a real Kibbutz. People were given equal food and services, in exchange for unequal labor. He hoped that this place will prove to Americans that their “individual selfish system” can easily be replaced with a socialist heaven. Owen invested a lot of his fortune in the experiment, but regrettably it failed – and a few years after its founding. What is truly fascinating about this story, though, is what happened to his sons. One served for two terms in the U.S. House of Representatives, and later became secretary of the Freedman’s Bureau. Another one became the state geologist of Indiana and Arkansas, and then the head of the U.S. Geological Survey. The last one, Richard Owen, was the first president of Purdue University. He wrote about America: “Here amid nature’s wild, human hope expanded, a new regime was founded, and America took up her appointed mission of exemplifying to the world the inalienable rights of man.” His father yearned to show Americans that America was rotten. Ironically, his family’s greatest achievement was showing the world the magnificence of America. To those outside of America, I will say – let it be. Even if you don’t like America the way it is, let it be. Respect the sweat and toil of its founders. Respect it and let it be. And to Americans, I will say: Vote for Bush. Vote for Bush if you too can see its magnificence. __________________ "Always do right - this will gratify some and astonish the rest."

09-24-2004, 10:15 AM	#2 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	Great read! Ill say this: It's one hell of an historical phenomenon. Last edited by powerclown; 09-24-2004 at 10:18 AM..

09-24-2004, 10:32 AM	#3 (permalink)
clavus pow! Location: NorCal	I was right there with you until that last line. Shouldn't this nonsequiter Pro-Bush post be in Tilted Politics? __________________ Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

09-24-2004, 10:38 AM	#4 (permalink)
Four Fingers Crazy	Well, it's more about history than politics. I'll gladly edit the end if it bothers you. __________________ "Always do right - this will gratify some and astonish the rest."

09-24-2004, 11:01 AM	#7 (permalink)
Four Fingers Crazy	Increased centralization and more economical regulation are the things that hurt the true spirit of America most. I don't agree with everyhing that Bush does, and frankly I don't think you can find a president with whom you'll agree on every single issue. But there is one common thing I can see in all of Bush's actions, and that is enough for me. I see him fighting centralization and government intervention: more control to local communities, schools with personalized curricula that actually care what the parents think, less taxes and less federalwide programs. And I see this cherished idealism in him, something America greatly missed. He knows what America stands for. __________________ "Always do right - this will gratify some and astonish the rest."

09-24-2004, 10:41 AM	#5 (permalink)
bacon_masta Psycho Location: i live in the state of denial	really excellent ideas, i enjoyed the read, but i'm not sure how the obviously unique and admirable construction of the United States through the sweat and blood of the common man really relates to the obviously big-business based economic and political approaches that are being enacted in this country now. a vote for bush is a vote AGAINST the ideals that this country was founded on. the bush "regime" has strengthened the religious intolerance and fundamentalism many people fled to america to escape. yes, this is a great country, but bush's ideals and actions have not been directed in the same way; he talks out of one side of his mouth and issues orders from the other that are contradictory to the beliefs and freedoms this country was based on. i really enjoyed the post, and i hope this won't be taken as an attempt to flame or discredit anyone's personal beliefs, but i don't think bush has done anything to build on, or even support the basic fundamental freedoms america is founded on.

09-24-2004, 10:54 AM	#6 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	It was all fine and dandy until I read the last line.

09-24-2004, 11:02 AM	#8 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Very interesting. I liked it a lot. But...what in the sam hill does George W. Bush have to do with any of it? Show me why this doesn't belong in politics. Otherwise I'm moving it. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

09-24-2004, 11:07 AM	#9 (permalink)
Four Fingers Crazy	I guess it's too late to un-politicize it, so perhaps it would be best to move it there. __________________ "Always do right - this will gratify some and astonish the rest."

09-24-2004, 12:53 PM	#10 (permalink)
cthulu23 Banned	Bush may be a pseudo fiscal conservative (huge deficits and the formation of a new branch of government are not typical conservative virtues), but he definitely believes in more government interference in social issues, a la abortion, drug issues, more police, more restrictions on personal liberty, greater surveillance of the public, less right-to-know for the public and a host of other issues that strain his identity as a traditional "conservative." I could have named quite a few more, but I hope that my point has been made.

09-24-2004, 01:24 PM	#12 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	You broke the good spell you had cast with the last lines. Quite unnecessary. __________________ create evolution

09-24-2004, 05:34 PM	#14 (permalink)
analog Banned	Wow, can't believe I saw that coming. It was at least tolerable until that last line... and now that I know you wrote and posted that whole thing so you could drop the shrub's name, i don't care about any of it.

09-24-2004, 07:08 PM	#15 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Ahahahahaha, good one! I'm sure someone as intelligent as yourself can easily see that Bush is pro Pax Americana. The Imperial Americas are something that stands in stark contrast to the original dream of our beautiful country. I don't know if you watched things like the Bay of Pigs, Waco Texas, or the Second Gulf War, but it is apparent that we need to protect America and "the sweat and toil of its founders". Bush (while obviously not responsible for the Bay of Pigs or Waco) stands in the way of moving forward. Organizations like the PNAC, backing and leading our president not-elect, are turning the bow of the country against the waters of progress. I suggest for everyone to study in great detail all three presidential candidates before voting. Our singular responsibility as citizens is to choose the representatives that will help our country to grow, flourish, and progress. Bush, according to my research, is not one of these representatives. Also, socialism, communism, totalitarianism for that matter are forms of government. Owens did not "yearn[ed] to show Americans that America was rotten", he was simply a firm believer in humanity. His faith may have been misplaced, but let's leave him alone.

09-26-2004, 09:35 PM	#16 (permalink)
pedro padilla Insane	Damn, you´re very good. I think there´s a huge well paying market for your talents these days. Sweeping statements covering the scope of all the supposed morals and values that we, as Americans, sincerely believe in our hearts. A country built by immigrants. Sweating, fighting and dying for the ideals we hold so dear. Religious tolerance and respect for your fellow man. Freedom from predjudices and the right to express our beliefs without fear of reprisal. A system of justice based on the presumption of innocence until proven otherwise. What I don´t understand is how the fuck George Bush´s name entered the picture. Good comedy though. I give it a 4.

09-26-2004, 10:08 PM	#17 (permalink)
analog Banned	MOD NOTE: This thread was never a discussion to begin with. Threads in Politics are not used to soapbox about a candidate. Thread closed.