It's things like this that have me convinced the CC.... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Superbelt · 09-20-2004, 05:28 AM

That they are among the most dangerous people on earth.

link

Quote:

"I'm trying to find the correct name for it ... this utter absolute, asinine, idiotic stupidity of men marrying men. ... I've never seen a man in my life I wanted to marry. And I'm gonna be blunt and plain; if one ever looks at me like that, I'm gonna kill him and tell God he died."
-Jimmy Swaggart

In saying this he breaks two commandments, Thou shalt not kill and Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. Fuck, he says he would lie to God. How damned twisted is that? This man has a CONGREGATION?

Wow. Really. This IS the face of the christian right. I have thought for a long time that people like him, Baker, Falwell, Robertson and both Grahams... all of em actually. None of the national leaders who hold their particular views are any different.
The only thing that separates these men and those who think like them from Osama, Al Qaeda and the Taliban is that they hold significant political sway, mostly through one party, in the most powerful nation in the world. Take that away from them and you have the same. exact. thing.

I fully believe that. The whole lot of them are hypocritical bastards who know nothing of being a true christian. They only spread hate and fear. They scare me. For the future of this nation. They need to be stopped and that won't happen while they have the Republican party, which has control over two branches of our government and could be on the verge of taking absolute control of the third through appointments (if bush is reelected), in their hip pocket.

SecretMethod70 · 09-20-2004, 06:01 AM

Quote:

The whole lot of them are hypocritical bastards who know nothing of being a true christian. They only spread hate and fear. They scare me. For the future of this nation. They need to be stopped and that won't happen while they have the Republican party ... in their hip pocket.

I couldn't agree more. People like that give people like me and the majority of other Christians a bad name IMO. This issue goes beyond party politics in my mind and simply goes to how a good government should be run.

Bill O'Rights · 09-20-2004, 06:08 AM

Which is exactly why I am such a fervent believer in complete and total seperation of Church and State.

Ustwo · 09-20-2004, 06:28 AM

http://www.cc.org/content.cfm?srch=Jimmy+Swaggart

Quote:

Sorry, your search for Jimmy Swaggart yielded no results. Please try again.
Sorry, your search for Swaggart yielded no results. Please try again.

While I am no fan of the CC, please try to avoid using straw men as your argument against them.

Perhaps I should say Marion Barry IS the face of the Democratic Party.

onetime2 · 09-20-2004, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

In saying this he breaks two commandments, Thou shalt not kill and Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. Fuck, he says he would lie to God. How damned twisted is that? This man has a CONGREGATION?

Ummm, no. If he does it then he breaks the commandments. In saying it he doesn't break any (unless he's lying and wouldn't really do it).

MikeyChalupa · 09-20-2004, 06:37 AM

Valid points, but the other thing that separates these folks from al-Qaida is that they're in it for the headlines and the millions of dollars their TV shows and mindless cronies make them every year, not because they TRULY BELIEVE that God will reward them in heaven for their work here on earth. When one of them straps on an explosive belt and blows himself up at a gay bar because "God told him to", then I'll believe these men are just as dangerous as Islamic Fundamentalists. Until then, they're just a lot of hot air. The scandals of the late 80's and early 90's demonstrated exactly what these guys motivation is.

-Mikey

onetime2 · 09-20-2004, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeyChalupa

Valid points, but the other thing that separates these folks from al-Qaida is that they're in it for the headlines and the millions of dollars their TV shows and mindless cronies make them every year, not because they TRULY BELIEVE that God will reward them in heaven for their work here on earth. When one of them straps on an explosive belt and blows himself up at a gay bar because "God told him to", then I'll believe these men are just as dangerous as Islamic Fundamentalists. Until then, they're just a lot of hot air. The scandals of the late 80's and early 90's demonstrated exactly what these guys motivation is.

-Mikey

I see some other things missing as well. Not the least of which is a concerted effort to kill innocent people in the most attention grabbing ways possible to influence US policy.

Superbelt · 09-20-2004, 06:44 AM

Then that reminds me of this

Quote:

Anti-gay preacher Fred Phelps has announced intentions to erect a monument to Matthew Shepard the gay college student brutally murdered five years ago near Laramie.

But, the monument will be no memorial. Phelps says the monument would be 5 to 6 feet tall and made of marble or granite. It would bear a bronze plaque bearing the image of Shepard and have an inscription reading "MATTHEW SHEPARD, Entered Hell October 12, 1998, in Defiance of God's Warning: 'Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination.' Leviticus 18:22."

The monument would be erected in downtown Casper, Shepard's home town.

Here is that priceless piece of hate. (Too big to fit on screen)

Which in turn reminds me of this:
Bush proclaiming October 12 through October 18, 2003 Marriage Protection week, to protect the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman.
I think it's horrible to just go and proclaim a week in america to be for that on a proclimation. It spits in the face of american freedom.
A big reason to be against him. He may not/most likely doesn't agree with the extremes. But he gives them voice, power and momentum.

Superbelt · 09-20-2004, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onetime2

Ummm, no. If he does it then he breaks the commandments. In saying it he doesn't break any (unless he's lying and wouldn't really do it).

I was raised a christian, still am. I was taught and read in the bible that your hearts content matters as much as your deeds. Just because he has never done it doesn't mean that the will and capacity should be ignored. That desire is as abominable to God as the deed.

And to Ustwo, Swaggart may not be part of the CC itself, but he part of the evangelical movement that believes in the same things. His being damaged goods keeps him out of membership. His beliefs differ little from people like Falwell and Robertson who have publicly professed that we were attacked because we fell out of favor with God over "sins" like homosexuality, feminism, liberalism etc.

Superbelt · 09-20-2004, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeyChalupa

Valid points, but the other thing that separates these folks from al-Qaida is that they're in it for the headlines and the millions of dollars their TV shows and mindless cronies make them every year, not because they TRULY BELIEVE that God will reward them in heaven for their work here on earth. When one of them straps on an explosive belt and blows himself up at a gay bar because "God told him to", then I'll believe these men are just as dangerous as Islamic Fundamentalists. Until then, they're just a lot of hot air. The scandals of the late 80's and early 90's demonstrated exactly what these guys motivation is.

-Mikey

..
onetime:
I see some other things missing as well. Not the least of which is a concerted effort to kill innocent people in the most attention grabbing ways possible to influence US policy.

You think their advocacy for murdering gay people isn't part of that crime itself? Preachers like Swaggart are incredibly influential and can drive people to kill the next gay man who "looks at me funny".
Let's not forget the brutal murder of Matthew Sheppard, the hypocritical right to life individuals who set bombs off in abortion clinics and snipe doctors etc.

Ustwo · 09-20-2004, 06:53 AM

Quote:

The expression is used to indicate a (often imaginary) person, object, or abstract entity set up for the purpose of being knocked down. Thus, it can also mean "a front, a diversionary tactic, a red herring, ... a cipher."

Again, I don't really care for the CC but if you are going to attack the CC stick to the CC.

onetime2 · 09-20-2004, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

I was raised a christian, still am. I was taught and read in the bible that your hearts content matters as much as your deeds. Just because he has never done it doesn't mean that the will and capacity should be ignored. That desire is as abominable to God as the deed.

.

And your pennance for thinking of doing something wrong versus actually doing it was the same? I know mine wasn't.

Superbelt · 09-20-2004, 06:55 AM

Again, Swaggart holds the same views of the CC leadership. His absence from the group is a result of his adultery scandal that would put a blemish on their reputation.

onetime: if you are advocating murder, and being so without shame that you would try to laughably lie to God about it, yeah I believe the punishment remains the same, if he truly believes that in his heart.

onetime2 · 09-20-2004, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

onetime: if you are advocating murder, and being so without shame that you would try to laughably lie to God about it, yeah I believe the punishment remains the same, if he truly believes that in his heart.

Isn't it a bit beyond the realm of reason to think he would actually try to "lie" to God about it? First, I don't think he's saying he'd lie to God but I guess it could be interpreted that way. Second, God is described as being omniscient so you could not possibly believe he wouldn't know you're lying.

But I digress, I'm taking this thread down the wrong path by debating these philosophical points.

I totally disagree that he is representative of the Republican party (since there is no one "typical" Republican or Democrat) and pointing to him as being an asshat doesn't really prove anything. There are plenty on both sides.

I guess I'll just refrain from posting anymore in this thread since I don't see too much point to it. (I was really only interested in the philosophical part of it anyway). Carry on.

Superbelt · 09-20-2004, 07:11 AM

Yeah, that was just a really stupid comment by him. I could see him though, lying to the authorities or helping to protect from prosecution those who have committed the crime.
The guy is scum and is a far way off from the scripture that helped make him his millions.

No, no. I never said he is the face of the party. I said he is representative of the Christian right and that group holds tremendous sway in the party. I believe some of the current leaders are heavily influenced by them as well. They don't hold all their views or to the extreme, but the leadership clearly gives them an audience and have put policy decisions in place that they want.

onetime2 · 09-20-2004, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

Let's not forget the brutal murder of Matthew Sheppard, the hypocritical right to life individuals who set bombs off in abortion clinics and snipe doctors etc.

Sorry, one last comment as I missed this one. Please Superbelt, one example is hardly equivalent to the multiple attacks perpetrated by Al Qaeda which have killed thousands.

Superbelt · 09-20-2004, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onetime2

Sorry, one last comment as I missed this one. Please Superbelt, one example is hardly equivalent to the multiple attacks perpetrated by Al Qaeda which have killed thousands.

You don't have to go.

I tried to cover this as well. These people don't have to go to the lengths that Al Q etc do. They are part of a strong power structure. The efforts of Al Q is one of desperation, with no real long term survival or goal in mind. The CC structure has plans to stay on top, and can achieve their goals through legislation and power of the pulpit.
Al Q= Outcasted, desperate
CC etc.= In power, has time to do what they want through more benign channels.

roachboy · 09-20-2004, 07:28 AM

http://www.cc.org/issues.cfm

here is a summary of the christian coalition's legislative agenda--it is pretty repellent stuff, frankly.

what is curious is that i cannot find a way to determine the extent of the coalition, organizationally.

i did find quite a bit of ugly stuff on teh site--under "church liaisons" at teh bottom, for example, you find points instructing affiliated pastors that they can act "as private citizens" and endorse particular [christian-type] candidates, and to endorse that candidate to the flock because preachers "do not loose the right to free speech because they work for a church"--wherein lies a kernel that enables one to see the wholesale blurring of religious and political statements particular to this space.

at the bottom of the page linked above, you will find a series of acts the cc endorses that gives swaggart the latitude to be a fuckwit in his particular way but still be consistent with the cc position.

but because the limits of the christian coalition is difficult to determine, and because swaggart is expressing a line consistent with what you can know about the cc,
what exactly is the problem with treating swaggart as symbolic of the cc?
explain this to me, please....

what it looks like is that swaggart would be fine for inclusion if what he was saying was not embarrassing, and equally fine for exclusion when he is embarrassing--because the entity of the cc is itself amorphous, this functions as a kind of plausible deniability.

so the straw man being set up in this thread comes from ustwo, who arrogates to himself, without justification, the ability to determine where the cc starts and stops.

onetime2 · 09-20-2004, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

You don't have to go.

I tried to cover this as well. These people don't have to go to the lengths that Al Q etc do. They are part of a strong power structure. The efforts of Al Q is one of desperation, with no real long term survival or goal in mind. The CC structure has plans to stay on top, and can achieve their goals through legislation and power of the pulpit.
Al Q= Outcasted, desperate
CC etc.= In power, has time to do what they want through more benign channels.

I don't believe Al Q is outcasted as the support for Bin Laden in certain areas of the Muslim world is massive. Swaggart's sphere of influence is far smaller and less likely to mobilize on any sort of large scale.

I have little doubt that Al Q has a long term survival goal as they can not possibly expect their goals to be met in the short term.

You're again insinuating that Swaggert is representative of the Republican party. I disagree completely just as I don't think Michael Moore is a good example of the Democratic party. They each hold a certain sway in a small area of their parties but neither can hope to push the national tenor significantly toward their distorted views.

Ustwo · 09-20-2004, 07:36 AM

Superbelt so far you have used two strawmen to demonize the CC.

First was Jimmy Swaggart, who is not part of the CC.

Second is Fred Phelps and this is what the CC has to say about him...

Quote:

NEW YORK -- Gay activists and conservative Christians alike were appalled by the scene: At the funeral of 21-year-old Matthew Shepard, the gay man beaten to death in Wyoming, the Rev. Fred W. Phelps Sr. and his band of protesters carried signs saying, "God hates fags."

"I found it almost impossible to believe that human beings could be so brutal and vicious to a hurting family," says the Rev. Jerry Falwell.
....
"He's a first-class nut," says Falwell, a depiction that pleases Phelps.

For conservative Christians, Phelps is a pitiful caricature of the believer who fosters negative stereotypes of Christians who oppose the homosexual lifestyle.

Carmen Pate, president of Concerned Women United, a conservative public policy group, says most conservative groups opposing homosexuality emphasize loving gays and lesbians while denouncing the gay lifestyle.

Arne Owens, spokesman for the Christian Coalition, agrees.

"You must be loving toward all human beings while recognizing the role of sin in the world," he said. If conservative Christians do protest, their leaders say, most limit themselves to public rallies, such as gay pride marches.

Still, Knight complains, the media use Phelps as "a shorthand description of conservative Christians, which is unfair."

http://cjonline.com/indepth/phelps/s...protests.shtml

Once you get to the problems with the CC I'll be happy to discuss what I don't like about them. Until then we are not talking about the CC but a disgraced preacher and a nut job.

Averett · 09-20-2004, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

Then that reminds me of this

Here is that priceless piece of hate. (Too big to fit on screen)

The site you are attempting to access contains material of a Racist, Sexist, Oppressive or Violent nature and has been blocked!

Yikes! Well, I guess with the website being www.godhatesfags.com I shouldn't be surprised...

Superbelt · 09-20-2004, 08:04 AM

Falwell was selected to take over the PTL Ministry when Jim Bakker was taken down by scandal in 1987, at Bakkers request.:analysis: OOH, Look! A direct connection!

Jimmy Swaggart explains why Jerry Falwell is obliged to return PTL to Jim Bakker: "If I tell you I'm going to keep your truck for five days and then I'm going to give it back to you, and then someone finds out you're a homosexual, I still owe you your truck.":Shorter: I have no idea what I just said. Drugs are bad.

Quote:

"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say: you helped this happen."

:Shorter: God hates us for being tolerant to the Gay lifestyle. Thus he let us get attacked (Free will of all people be damned)

Quote:

"I listen to feminists and all these radical gals... These women just need a man in the house. That's all they need. Most of the feminists need a man to tell them what time of day it is and to lead them home. And they blew it and they're mad at all men. Feminists hate men. They're sexist. They hate men; that's their problem." -Falwell

:shorter: Get your ass in the kitchen and bake me a pie.

Quote:

Now, further evidence that the creators of the series intend for Tinky Winky to be a gay role model have surfaced. He is purple -- the gay-pride color; and his antenna is shaped like a triangle -- the gay-pride symbol.
-Falwell

:shorter: I'm braindead

Quote:

Mohammad was a terrorist
-Falwell

:shorter: let me tap into the current fears of america, demonizing an entire people by making a false blanket statement about a religious figure.

Quote:

[there can be] "no peaceful coexistence" [between homosexuals and Christians.]
-Falwell

:shorter: Round em up and put em in camps.

Quote:

"If I could just get a nuclear device inside Foggy Bottom, I think that's the answer."
-Pat Robertson on the US State Department.

:shorter: watch me make overt threats to a branch of the Federal Government and suffer no reprecussions.

Quote:

"The Antichrist is probably a Jew alive in Israel today."
"Presbyterians are the spirit of the Antichrist."

:shorter:I enjoy throwing the antichrist label at everyone I don't like.

Quote:

“...What kind of craziness is it in our society which will put a cloak of secrecy around a group of people whose lifestyle is at best abominable. Homosexuality is an abomination. The practices of those people is appalling. It is a pathology. It is a sickness, and instead of thinking of giving these people a preferred status and privacy, we should treat AIDS exactly the same way as any other communicable disease...” -
-Pat Robetson

:shorter: extinguish the disease of Gays.

Quote:

"[Gays seek] to destroy all Christians."

:haiku: Gays wish on us death
so let us kill them first brother
Gods love shines on us.

Wow, I could go on for weeks with this stuff. Get the picture? Not much of a leap from what Saggart has said

powerclown · 09-20-2004, 08:06 AM

Ditto what BOR said...
A logical way to govern in a multi-racial, interconnected world.

MikeyChalupa · 09-20-2004, 08:08 AM

When Jerry Falwell calls Phelps a first class nut, that's pretty much the Strawman seal of approval.

-Mikey

SecretMethod70 · 09-20-2004, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Averett

The site you are attempting to access contains material of a Racist, Sexist, Oppressive or Violent nature and has been blocked!

Yikes! Well, I guess with the website being www.godhatesfags.com I shouldn't be surprised...

I'm sorry you have such an oppressive ISP

As for the picture, while I don't disbelieve that some nutjob may want to do something like that, I'll believe it when I see a picture of the "monument" that isn't photoshopped

Nonetheless, that there are people like this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone - they exist within every religion. Frankly, if we just stopped electing politicians who were willing to put interest groups above their constituents and conscience, this would be much less of an issue.

Superbelt · 09-20-2004, 08:28 AM

They have come together for several political organizations:
National Religious Broadcasters
Members include Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Tim LaHaye, Billy Graham, Bill Bright, Sun Myung Moon

Coalition For Religious Freedom
Tim LaHaye held a paid position as Chairman. It was formed by LaHaye after Moon was arrested for tax evasion. Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, James Robison, James Kennedy and Rex Humbard, have all served as executive committee members.

These people are all interconnected in some ways

Swaggert himself is NOT a member of the CC, as that is Falwell and Robertson's group. and Swaggert has his own (which pulls in greater ratins than anything those two can come up with) They are rivals for power and influence.

CC is the identifier everyone knows, so I use that one for simplification. By and large they all hold the same views on these issues, some being more extreme and abrasive than others.

Averett · 09-20-2004, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

I'm sorry you have such an oppressive ISP

Eh, I'm at work... Not supposed to be online anyway, but that's another story

djtestudo · 09-20-2004, 10:58 AM

I am ashamed that I am on the same side of the political spectrum as guys like Falwell and Swaggert. They are to Christianity what the Saudi and Iranian governments are to Islam.

OpieCunningham · 09-20-2004, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onetime2

Sorry, one last comment as I missed this one. Please Superbelt, one example is hardly equivalent to the multiple attacks perpetrated by Al Qaeda which have killed thousands.

How many people has Bin Laden personally killed? It's very likely he has killed people, even though I do not recall any known instances. The reason Bin Laden is wanted is because he is the spiritual leader of a group of people that do kill in the name of their religion. There is even debate over how much practical involvement he had with 9/11.

Falwell is also a spiritual leader who advocates death to infidels, or as he calls them - sinners. And there have been murders based on the concept of religion that Falwell preaches, if not directly due to Falwell himself. How many followers who will kill does Falwell need in order to be considered a terrorist or major threat?

onetime2 · 09-20-2004, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OpieCunningham

How many people has Bin Laden personally killed? It's very likely he has killed people, even though I do not recall any known instances. The reason Bin Laden is wanted is because he is the spiritual leader of a group of people that do kill in the name of their religion. There is even debate over how much practical involvement he had with 9/11.

Falwell is also a spiritual leader who advocates death to infidels, or as he calls them - sinners. And there have been murders based on the concept of religion that Falwell preaches, if not directly due to Falwell himself. How many followers who will kill does Falwell need in order to be considered a terrorist or major threat?

I'll tell you what, when Falwell's followers rack up a death toll of just half a percent of what Bin Laden's followers are responsible for on 9/11 alone I'll begin to consider the ludicrous assertion that he is a terrorist leader. Deal?

Superbelt · 09-20-2004, 01:50 PM

And again I have to stress the difference in power base that each group has. One has the backing of an organized powerful country and the other has to rely on grass roots involvement of the disenfranchised.
That makes a tremendous difference.

smooth · 09-20-2004, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onetime2

I'll tell you what, when Falwell's followers rack up a death toll of just half a percent of what Bin Laden's followers are responsible for on 9/11 alone I'll begin to consider the ludicrous assertion that he is a terrorist leader. Deal?

That's only 15 people.

OpieCunningham · 09-20-2004, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onetime2

I'll tell you what, when Falwell's followers rack up a death toll of just half a percent of what Bin Laden's followers are responsible for on 9/11 alone I'll begin to consider the ludicrous assertion that he is a terrorist leader. Deal?

I thought we were going the preemptive route these days?

irateplatypus · 09-20-2004, 02:42 PM

al qaeda? taliban? iran?

as usual people go waaaaaaaaaaaay too far in making their point... thus destroying credibility or the chance to have a decent conversation.

rukkyg · 09-20-2004, 05:05 PM

The problem here is everyone agrees he's crazy, so the debate had to be formed around how horrible a person he is. Is he just a crazy nut job, or is he a EVIL EVIL TERRORIST! BE AFRAID!

onetime2 · 09-21-2004, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OpieCunningham

I thought we were going the preemptive route these days?

So, you wanna take Falwell out because he's spoken beliefs that you disagree with without having taken any offensive action at all? Has he built a military, invaded other rectories, tried to assasinate other religious leaders? Not that I'm aware of. This "solution" sounds a bit like China, North Korea, or the former Soviet Union.

hannukah harry · 09-21-2004, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onetime2

invaded other rectories,

does this mean he's on the homo-suspicion list?

student · 09-21-2004, 10:17 AM

It is perfectly valid to associate the cc with al q. They both share the same mindset that it is permissible to eliminate infidels whether it be beheadings or public policy. The nazis didn't set up concentration camps overnight. The patriot act? The gastapo?

cthulu23 · 09-21-2004, 03:45 PM

Although both the CC and Al Q are scary fundamentalists who wish to codify their religion into law, the comparison does bend under it's own weight. For one, nuts like the Army of God are not officially sanctioned by Falwell, unlike Al Q. However, given the broadening of the term "terrorist" recently, maybe the comparison isn't so unusual. If drug dealers are now "terrorists," why not Falwell? I call for the immediate invasion of Heritage USA!!!!

irateplatypus · 09-21-2004, 05:53 PM

i watched the vid, hearing the actual words didn't make him appear to be as vitriolic as the transcript did. in fact, i think superbelt left out an important part... he said,

"i'm not knocking the poor homosexual, he needs salvation just like anyone else. i'm knocking our pititful pathetic lawmakers..."

combine this with the fact that the portion cited above was clearly said in a joking manner (though it was too crass to be funny) and you've got a significantly different (and more contextual) picture of what swaggart said. he's gone from making a purely hateful statement to making a political statement devoid of tact.

listen, i've grown up and around these kind of people all my life. i've seen and heard a lot of stuff from these people... i'd say more than any other TFP'er, regardless of age (and i'm only 22!). most of it i don't like. some of it i'm down right embarrassed about. but please consider what i tell you: you're making yourself look very silly when you compare these people to al qaeda. they may deserve all the scorn, but only half the credit they're given.

i'd really rather not go into here on TFP, but trust me, i know a lot of what goes on with these people firsthand. i don't like them either, but comparing them to terrorists really is laughable.

09-20-2004, 06:08 AM	#3 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Which is exactly why I am such a fervent believer in complete and total seperation of Church and State. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

09-20-2004, 07:11 AM	#15 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Yeah, that was just a really stupid comment by him. I could see him though, lying to the authorities or helping to protect from prosecution those who have committed the crime. The guy is scum and is a far way off from the scripture that helped make him his millions. No, no. I never said he is the face of the party. I said he is representative of the Christian right and that group holds tremendous sway in the party. I believe some of the current leaders are heavily influenced by them as well. They don't hold all their views or to the extreme, but the leadership clearly gives them an audience and have put policy decisions in place that they want. Last edited by Superbelt; 09-20-2004 at 07:14 AM..

09-20-2004, 07:28 AM	#18 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	http://www.cc.org/issues.cfm here is a summary of the christian coalition's legislative agenda--it is pretty repellent stuff, frankly. what is curious is that i cannot find a way to determine the extent of the coalition, organizationally. i did find quite a bit of ugly stuff on teh site--under "church liaisons" at teh bottom, for example, you find points instructing affiliated pastors that they can act "as private citizens" and endorse particular [christian-type] candidates, and to endorse that candidate to the flock because preachers "do not loose the right to free speech because they work for a church"--wherein lies a kernel that enables one to see the wholesale blurring of religious and political statements particular to this space. at the bottom of the page linked above, you will find a series of acts the cc endorses that gives swaggart the latitude to be a fuckwit in his particular way but still be consistent with the cc position. but because the limits of the christian coalition is difficult to determine, and because swaggart is expressing a line consistent with what you can know about the cc, what exactly is the problem with treating swaggart as symbolic of the cc? explain this to me, please.... what it looks like is that swaggart would be fine for inclusion if what he was saying was not embarrassing, and equally fine for exclusion when he is embarrassing--because the entity of the cc is itself amorphous, this functions as a kind of plausible deniability. so the straw man being set up in this thread comes from ustwo, who arrogates to himself, without justification, the ability to determine where the cc starts and stops. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 09-20-2004 at 07:36 AM..

09-20-2004, 10:58 AM	#28 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	I am ashamed that I am on the same side of the political spectrum as guys like Falwell and Swaggert. They are to Christianity what the Saudi and Iranian governments are to Islam. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

09-20-2004, 02:42 PM	#34 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	al qaeda? taliban? iran? as usual people go waaaaaaaaaaaay too far in making their point... thus destroying credibility or the chance to have a decent conversation. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

09-20-2004, 06:37 AM	#6 (permalink)
MikeyChalupa Squid Location: USS George Washington	Valid points, but the other thing that separates these folks from al-Qaida is that they're in it for the headlines and the millions of dollars their TV shows and mindless cronies make them every year, not because they TRULY BELIEVE that God will reward them in heaven for their work here on earth. When one of them straps on an explosive belt and blows himself up at a gay bar because "God told him to", then I'll believe these men are just as dangerous as Islamic Fundamentalists. Until then, they're just a lot of hot air. The scandals of the late 80's and early 90's demonstrated exactly what these guys motivation is. -Mikey

09-20-2004, 06:55 AM	#13 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Again, Swaggart holds the same views of the CC leadership. His absence from the group is a result of his adultery scandal that would put a blemish on their reputation. onetime: if you are advocating murder, and being so without shame that you would try to laughably lie to God about it, yeah I believe the punishment remains the same, if he truly believes that in his heart.

09-20-2004, 08:06 AM	#23 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	Ditto what BOR said... A logical way to govern in a multi-racial, interconnected world.

09-20-2004, 08:08 AM	#24 (permalink)
MikeyChalupa Squid Location: USS George Washington	When Jerry Falwell calls Phelps a first class nut, that's pretty much the Strawman seal of approval. -Mikey

09-20-2004, 08:28 AM	#26 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	They have come together for several political organizations: National Religious Broadcasters Members include Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Tim LaHaye, Billy Graham, Bill Bright, Sun Myung Moon Coalition For Religious Freedom Tim LaHaye held a paid position as Chairman. It was formed by LaHaye after Moon was arrested for tax evasion. Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, James Robison, James Kennedy and Rex Humbard, have all served as executive committee members. These people are all interconnected in some ways Swaggert himself is NOT a member of the CC, as that is Falwell and Robertson's group. and Swaggert has his own (which pulls in greater ratins than anything those two can come up with) They are rivals for power and influence. CC is the identifier everyone knows, so I use that one for simplification. By and large they all hold the same views on these issues, some being more extreme and abrasive than others.

09-20-2004, 01:50 PM	#31 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	And again I have to stress the difference in power base that each group has. One has the backing of an organized powerful country and the other has to rely on grass roots involvement of the disenfranchised. That makes a tremendous difference.

09-20-2004, 05:05 PM	#35 (permalink)
rukkyg Loser Location: RPI, Troy, NY	The problem here is everyone agrees he's crazy, so the debate had to be formed around how horrible a person he is. Is he just a crazy nut job, or is he a EVIL EVIL TERRORIST! BE AFRAID!

09-21-2004, 10:17 AM	#38 (permalink)
student Crazy	It is perfectly valid to associate the cc with al q. They both share the same mindset that it is permissible to eliminate infidels whether it be beheadings or public policy. The nazis didn't set up concentration camps overnight. The patriot act? The gastapo?

09-21-2004, 03:45 PM	#39 (permalink)
cthulu23 Banned	Although both the CC and Al Q are scary fundamentalists who wish to codify their religion into law, the comparison does bend under it's own weight. For one, nuts like the Army of God are not officially sanctioned by Falwell, unlike Al Q. However, given the broadening of the term "terrorist" recently, maybe the comparison isn't so unusual. If drug dealers are now "terrorists," why not Falwell? I call for the immediate invasion of Heritage USA!!!!

09-21-2004, 05:53 PM	#40 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	i watched the vid, hearing the actual words didn't make him appear to be as vitriolic as the transcript did. in fact, i think superbelt left out an important part... he said, "i'm not knocking the poor homosexual, he needs salvation just like anyone else. i'm knocking our pititful pathetic lawmakers..." combine this with the fact that the portion cited above was clearly said in a joking manner (though it was too crass to be funny) and you've got a significantly different (and more contextual) picture of what swaggart said. he's gone from making a purely hateful statement to making a political statement devoid of tact. listen, i've grown up and around these kind of people all my life. i've seen and heard a lot of stuff from these people... i'd say more than any other TFP'er, regardless of age (and i'm only 22!). most of it i don't like. some of it i'm down right embarrassed about. but please consider what i tell you: you're making yourself look very silly when you compare these people to al qaeda. they may deserve all the scorn, but only half the credit they're given. i'd really rather not go into here on TFP, but trust me, i know a lot of what goes on with these people firsthand. i don't like them either, but comparing them to terrorists really is laughable. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill