Ustwo

Both candidates have a number of 527 adds. The two getting the most press are the moveon.org adds and the swift boat adds.

Do you think these adds help or hurt 'their' candidates cause?

My opinion is the swift boat adds help Bush. They are Vets saying Kerry isn't a hero, and after Kerry spent the last year making sure everyone knew he was a Vietnam war hero, anyone questioning that, especially other vets has got to hurt to some degree. Most of the undecided types don't know WHAT Kerry did in Vietnam so if someone comes out and questions it in a plausible way, showing footage of Kerry during the anti-war years, it could quickly tarnish that war hero image. Now I have NOT seen a single swift boat add, I tend to watch only the history channel, discovery, the science channel and the very odd fox news, oh and the playboy channel. I've seen snippets of them but never a full add. They might be horrible lies, but from what I've seen they SEEM plausible.

The moveon adds I think also help Bush. Now if you really don't like Bush I'm sure they seem just fine, but if you are not sure, you maybe like Bush personally but you are worried about Iraq, I think the adds go to far. People who are still undecided obviously don't feel Bush is a liar about WMD's if they did odds are they wouldn't be voting for him, they don’t think he is evil, stupid, or in big businesses pocket for war profiteering. As such claiming he is will only upset these people. It reminds me a bit of a peta billboard. It gets your attention, but makes you want to go out and have some KFC hot wings. Oddly I have seen moveon.org adds on Fox News, which is ironic since their homepage is basically ‘Fox News Sucks!’.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ARTelevision

I've seen all the ads and I pretty much agree with your analysis here.

__________________
create evolution

JumpinJesus

What bothers me the most about the 527 ads is the laughable notion that neither campaign has anything to do with it. While the candidates may not be directly involved, those ads would not be made without the unspoken approval of the respective candidates.

527s leave a sour taste in my mouth and will make me punch my ballot card with a wince and a sigh. I will be voting for Kerry but wishing there were someone better.

(For me, Bush is not a better candidate, just in case anyone is tempted to suggest so.)

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

OpieCunningham

527s are good things. PACs are better. The MoveOn ads are from the MoveOn PAC. The SBVT ads are from the SBVT 527. PACs are subject to more disclosure.

As for "what it means for candidates", I think that's entirely subjective. Ustwo, you believe the MoveOn ads are going "too far" and the SBVT ads raise good questions. Of course you do.

Unsuprisingly, my take is very different.

The SBVT ads failed to garner much of an increase in Bush support. Most independents who had paid attention to the ad controversy when it was launched also stuck around and saw all the evidence of the lack of facts on behalf of the SBVT and their clear partisan agenda. The little that did help Bush came from Vets who felt offended by Kerry bringing the fact of the atrocities committed in Vietnam to light.

The MoveOn ads, which are much wider in scope than simply the SBVT attack ads, have brought forward issues that are glossed over completely by Bush, or twisted into successes instead of the failures that the ads accurately portray.

In that sense, most MoveOn ads help everyone because they are about the issues. SBVT ads hurt everyone because they're nothing more than proven fabrications.
Coming from the guy who has decided to intentionally support any President because he sees his peers offering "too much" dissent of the President, I can't say your agreement means much.

Ustwo

First lets bet clear.

I haven't seen a Swiftboat add end to end. I said they seem plausible. You have real vets saying Kerry is FOS, and including clips of Kerry the anti-war activist. I'm not sure if they have mentioned that Kerry's picture is in the Vietnamese war protester museum in Vietnam, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do that next. Kerry is a war hero to the communists in Vietnam, how well do you think THAT will sit with Joe six pack? I don't know exactly what they are saying about Kerry and I don't really care. If it turned out Kerry was as big a stud as he wants us to think he was, I still wouldn't vote for him because I base my choice on what he has done in the Senate and beyond.

To YOU the Moveon adds are accurate, but now put yourself in Joe Sixpacks easy chair. To him Bush can't be that bad or he wouldn’t still be undecided. So he has now seen that Kerry maybe isn't so wonderful, but he knows Bush isn't as bad as the moveon adds say over and over. He hears them say our troops are 'under-equipped' then he remembers M1A1's kicking the crap out of everything. It doesn't fit. Bush seems like a pretty good guy, maybe he shouldn't be president but he is not evil, but these adds are making him out to be Hitler (please excuse my flirting with Goodwin’s). This guy has no strong opinions on anything political and here comes move on shoving strong opinions down his throat.

Bush's rise in the polls started about the time of the Swiftboat adds began. Perhaps it was coincidental, but I think they opened up the idea of ‘Who the hell IS Kerry.’ A theme exploited at the RNC.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

OpieCunningham

As I said - impressions of how Joe Six Pack feels about the ads are entirely subjective.

You have your analysis of the psyche of the Comman Man, and I have mine.

Though how you go from one set of ads being repeated over and over which claim one candidate is not so wonderful and therefore the Common Man will believe those ads to another set of ads being repeated over and over which claim one candidate is not so wonderful and therefore the Common Man will not belive those ads is a mystery to me - though I could take a guess and say: that's just how you hope it plays out.