Are Iraqi's Better Off? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Rekna · 09-16-2004, 07:53 AM

I was thinking about this today. Are the Iraqi's currently better off? Water, food, electricity, and other necesities aren't gaurenteed on a day to day basis. There is violence in their streats daily. I'm sure everyone in the country knows someone who has been killed by this war. Iraq seems to be on the middle of a civil war that will erupt into a power vacume for many years. And it's civilians that are suffereing are being lumped in with "terrorists" (used lightly) when it comes to talking about them.

What makes an Iraqi life worth less than an American one? If an occuping power was doing a forced regiem change in your country and had killed many people you know would you not fight back? If you fought back is it fair to label you as a terrorist? Were our founding fathers that fought for our freedom from the British "terrorists"? They didn't follow the rules of war, they aimed for officers, they didn't line up like the british to fight head to head. Instead they hid in trees and pecked them off one at a time.

If you back an animal into a corner it will fight (and no i'm not calling iraqi's animals, i'm calling people animals).

MrsRight41401 · 09-16-2004, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Water, food, electricity, and other necesities aren't gaurenteed on a day to day basis. There is violence in their streats daily.

It wasn't guaranteed before the war either and now they have it more than before. Cities that never had electricity before now have it for 6 hours of the day. Running water is now clean and doesn't have to be boiled. There was violence in the streets daily and that happens in a minority of the towns - small strongholds that cause a lot of death. There are LOTS of towns that are seeing peace and prosperity without the fear of Saddam coming in and taking their children for his child army.

Quote:

If you back an animal into a corner it will fight.

The majority of Iraqis are not fighting and are grateful for our help. My husband just spent a few months there doing some work and he was treated VERY well by the Iraqis. We have many friends there that we keep in touch with.

Are there problems? Yes. Are they the most common occurrence - nope. But it's not sensational so the US media isn't talkin' about them.

Rachel

Redlemon · 09-16-2004, 08:59 AM

I don't have any facts to back up the following statements, but they are the impression that I get from hearing the news.

When Hussain was still in power, you had to worry about pissing off the government, and if you did, your life was in danger.

Now, your life is in danger from much more random attacks; improvised explosives, car bombs, etc. You are no longer in "control" of your own risk level.

Superbelt · 09-16-2004, 09:05 AM

US Intelligence recently released a report that was extremely brutal in it's projections of Iraq's long term political stability, even under the best of circumstances.

Currently our own forces are unable to secure anything outside the green zone and even that is in a dangerously bad state.

Superbelt · 09-16-2004, 09:07 AM

WASHINGTON, Sept. 15 - A classified National Intelligence Estimate prepared for President Bush in late July spells out a dark assessment of prospects for Iraq, government officials said Wednesday.

The estimate outlines three possibilities for Iraq through the end of 2005, with the worst case being developments that could lead to civil war, the officials said. The most favorable outcome described is an Iraq whose stability would remain tenuous in political, economic and security terms.

"There's a significant amount of pessimism," said one government official who has read the document, which runs about 50 pages. The officials declined to discuss the key judgments - concise, carefully written statements of intelligence analysts' conclusions - included in the document.

The intelligence estimate, the first on Iraq since October 2002, was prepared by the National Intelligence Council and was approved by the National Foreign Intelligence Board under John E. McLaughlin, the acting director of central intelligence. Such estimates can be requested by the White House or Congress, but this one was initiated by the intelligence council under George J. Tenet, who stepped down as director of central intelligence on July 9, the government officials said.

As described by the officials, the pessimistic tone of the new estimate stands in contrast to recent statements by Bush administration officials, including comments on Wednesday by Scott McClellan, the White House spokesman, who asserted that progress was being made.

"You know, every step of the way in Iraq there have been pessimists and hand-wringers who said it can't be done," Mr. McClellan said at a news briefing. "And every step of the way, the Iraqi leadership and the Iraqi people have proven them wrong because they are determined to have a free and peaceful future."

President Bush, who was briefed on the new intelligence estimate, has not significantly changed the tenor of his public remarks on the war's course over the summer, consistently emphasizing progress while acknowledging the difficulties.

Mr. Bush's opponent, Senator John Kerry, criticized the administration's optimistic public position on Iraq on Wednesday and questioned whether it would be possible to hold elections there in January.

"I think it is very difficult to see today how you're going to distribute ballots in places like Falluja, and Ramadi and Najaf and other parts of the country, without having established the security,'' Mr. Kerry said in a call-in phone call to Don Imus, the radio talk show host. "I know that the people who are supposed to run that election believe that they need a longer period of time and greater security before they can even begin to do it, and they just can't do it at this point in time. So I'm not sure the president is being honest with the American people about that situation either at this point.''

The situation in Iraq prompted harsh comments from Republicans and Democrats at a hearing into the shift of spending from reconstruction to security. Senator Richard G. Lugar of Indiana, chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, called it "exasperating for anybody look at this from any vantage point," and Senator Chuck Hagel, Republican of Nebraska, said of the overall lack of spending: "It's beyond pitiful, it's beyond embarrassing. It is now in the zone of dangerous."

A spokesman for the Central Intelligence Agency declined to comment on any new intelligence estimate.

All the officials who described the assessment said they had read the document or had been briefed on its findings. The officials included both critics and supporters of the administration's policies in Iraq. But they insisted they not be identified by name, agency or branch of government because the document remained highly classified.

The new estimate revisits issues raised by the intelligence council in less formal assessments in January 2003, the officials said. Those documents remain classified, but one of them warned that the building of democracy in Iraq would be a long, difficult and turbulent prospect that could include internal conflict, a government official said.

The new estimate by the National Intelligence Council was approved at a meeting in July by Mr. McLaughlin and the heads of the other intelligence agencies, the officials said.

Pacifier · 09-16-2004, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrsRight41401

now they have it more than before.

Average megawattage of electricity generated in Iraq each day last year before the invasion : 4,500
Coalition Provisional Authority (Baghdad)

Average megawattage generated there each day in June : 4,300
Coalition Provisional Authority (Baghdad)

Percentage of Iraq’s urban areas with access to potable water a year ago and today, respectively: 92, 60
Coalition Provisional Authority (Baghdad)/World Health Organization (Geneva)

http://www.harpers.org

Rdr4evr · 09-16-2004, 09:13 AM

An Iraqi life is worth no less than an American life. Although some Americans would probably like to believe that, it is not the case. And nobody has a right to call the Iraqis terrorist for fighting back. In the eyes of the Iraqis, the Americans are the real terrorists. You can’t blame the Iraqis for fighting back, its only natural to fight when your country is wrongly invaded. Had it been America that was wrongly invaded, nukes would start to fly. So all in all, Iraq is no safer than it was under Saddam (not yet anyway), and chances are it wont be for quite a while. The violence will probably escalate in that country from now on and I doubt it will get any better. It is unfortunate, but like you said, people are animals.

MrsRight41401 · 09-16-2004, 09:17 AM

A Blog from an Iraqi

I have been following these blogs for a long time because I find them to be one of the most honest and unbiased answers to the, "Did we do the right thing" question.

Quote:

As the world is living the 3rd memorial of the 9/11 attacks, the BBC opened a forum for Arab readers to allow them to voice their feelings about the “hatred wave against America”. This time the forum has a special significance because Arabs are directly related to this topic and the largest part of this “wave” comes from Arab countries.

Anyway, I decided to translate most of the comments posted by Iraqis along with some of the Arabs’ comments that caught my attention so that you can view some opinions that can rarely be seen in the media and I decided not to translate any of the offensive comments which you can find almost everywhere. I must add that most of these posters with offensive comments said that their comments were directed “against the American government, not the people”.

America is not an enemy of Arabs and Muslims, on the contrary, on many occasions she backed Muslims when other Muslims did nothing like in Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq. America helped us get rid of the worst dictatorship in history and despite the unstable security situation now in Iraq we breath freely and say whatever we want to say without fear from Saddam and his dogs
I was-and still-working as a teacher and Saddam was paying me 2 dollars a month, can you imagine that? while he paid thousands and thousands to his followers. Things now are much better for me and I feel grateful for America and the coalition for what they did to save us”
Amjad Al Ubaidy -Baghdad/Iraq.

Anyway - that is just an example. I enjoy reading this blog and many of the other blogs from Iraqis. It really is a look through their eyes. Are there bad things happening, yep... but they dwarf in comparison to the good.

Rachel

Superbelt · 09-16-2004, 09:17 AM

People seem to have it in their head that Iraq is a backwards nation. Of all the middle east, Iraq and Syria are the most westernized, with the highest standard of living.

Superbelt · 09-16-2004, 09:20 AM

Here's another blog from an Iraqi. This one is quite famous too. Her name is riverbend.
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

And don't forget the MOST famous Iraqi blogger, Salam Pax
http://www.thebaghdadblog.com/home/

MrsRight41401 · 09-16-2004, 09:20 AM

Iraq definately is one of the most advanced nations in the large cities, however the way money has been handled by the regime has deprived many of the small areas.

Rachel

MrsRight41401 · 09-16-2004, 09:21 AM

PS. Try to make sense of what I say - ask if I don't make sense. I'm working on 30 minutes sleep last night.

Ustwo · 09-16-2004, 09:30 AM

The one thing most people are, no matter how smart they may be, is short sighted.

Its almost tragic that people can only see the now or maybe the tomorrow, but rarely do they look beyond that. I am one of those who do, and the best way to gauge tomorrow is to look at the past. As such I’ve already read as much history as I could, took 300 level classes in college that gave me no credit as a biology major but I just wanted to take, and I’ve always had a love of archeology. Time truly does seem to flow, once you know enough of the past you can see the trends, see the evolution, see the direction. The concept of ‘ancient civilizations’ is lost, it is just civilization, and you come to know the Romans, Egyptians, Chinese etc were no more primitive, no more less intelligent, no more selfish then you. We feel very proud of ourselves, but try going without power and natural gas for a month and you will find your ancestors really knew what they were doing.

Sadly, I know sooner or later ‘Western’ civilization will fail. It won’t have to be a war, or hostile take over (though it could be), but the ideals and values will be gone. Some people have a hard time grasping this, but so would a citizen at the height of the Roman Empire who thought their way of life would last forever too.

Now in just over two months, baring any medical difficulties, I will be a father for the first time. With any luck I’ll have more children in the future. As my genes will go so will history. Four generations from now, I’ll be lucky if my youngest descendants will know my name on a family tree, in ten generations I’ll be lucky if they knew where the family came from.

Who knows what system of government they will live under. It might be utopian, and that would be nice, but it might well be a brutal dictatorship of a sort as well. There will always be people willing to be the next Saddam Hussein, next Uncle Joe, next Pol Pot, and perhaps your and my decedents will be subjugated by one of these types.

If that is the case, I can only hope that some future nation is willing to risk their own citizens, their own currency, their own lives to make my decedents free again. Who knows that nation might even be Iraq. I don’t think they will complain about the water not running immediately after.

MrsRight41401 · 09-16-2004, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Here's another blog from an Iraqi. This one is quite famous too. Her name is riverbend.
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

And don't forget the MOST famous Iraqi blogger, Salam Pax
http://www.thebaghdadblog.com/home/
__________________

I read those as well. I am pulling from both the blogs and my husband's own experiences in Iraq. There is a lot of bad shit going on over there. Tons of it in fact. However - there is also a lot of good.

Quote:

To reconstitute political life in a state presupposes a good man, whereas to have recourse to violence in order to make onceself prince in a republic supposes a bad man. Hence very rarely will there be a good man ready to use bad methods in order to make himself prince, though with a good end in view. Nor will any reasonable man blame him for taking any action, however extraordinary, which may be of servince in the organizing of a kingdom or the constituing of a republic. It is a sound maxim that reprehensible actions may be justified by their effects, and that when the effect is good, it always justifies the action. For it is the man who uses violence to spoil things, not the man who uses it to mend them, that is blameworthy.

We will have to wait and see what the outcome of this is. However, I suspect that early America dealt w/ many of the same problems as Iraq. Different but still the same.

powerclown · 09-16-2004, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

The one thing most people are, no matter how smart they may be, is short sighted.

Exactly. Its simply too soon to tell.
In the end, the Iraqis will decide if they want to be better off or not.

Quote:

Now in just over two months, baring any medical difficulties, I will be a father for the first time.

And, Congratulations!

Ustwo · 09-16-2004, 09:47 AM

Interesting....

Quote:

AGHDAD, Iraq, Sept. 8 /PRNewswire/ -- The latest polling numbers released today by the Iraq office of the International Republican Institute highlight the democratic aspirations of the Iraqi people. These results are from a public opinion survey fielded throughout the nation between August 10th and 20th.

ADVERTISEMENT
2,325 household interviews distributed across Iraq's 18 governorates form the basis of IRI's fourth nation-wide poll, conducted by the Independent Institute for Administrative and Civil Society Studies (IIACSS). Respondents were split nearly evenly between men and women, with 34% of respondents living in rural areas of the country.

IRI's poll shows that a large majority of Iraqis have a positive outlook on their young democracy and the elections that are to take place by January 2005. More than 77% of respondents feel that "regular, fair elections" would be the most important political right for the Iraqi people and 58% feel that democracy in Iraq is likely to succeed. When asked about the upcoming elections, 62.2% expressed confidence that their ballot selection would be kept secret and above 75% felt that the elections would reflect the will of the Iraqi people.

Iraqis remain optimistic about the future and committed to seeing Iraq through her democratic transition. 50% disagree with the statement that "my life was better before the war." In contrast to daily media reports of the hardships of today's Iraq, more than 70% of respondents would not leave their country if given the opportunity to live elsewhere. An overwhelming majority express an optimistic streak that belies foreign naysayers, with 75% expressing hopefulness about the future.

In measuring levels of trust for various civic organizations and leaders, teachers and university professors came out on top with 79.3% of respondents answering that they either "completely trust" or "somewhat trust" leaders in the education field. 78.5% of respondents expressed trust for religious leaders. The media and tribal leaders followed with 56.8% and 54.7% respectfully.

Government officials and governing bodies have also earned the trust of the Iraqi people. President Sheikh Ghazi al-Yawer and Prime Minister Ayed Allawi are "completely" or "somewhat" trusted by 68% and 60.6% respectfully. While IRI's July/August poll showed that Iraqis were concerned with security, the Iraqi Police and Army are well-placed to deal with these concerns, with 80.3% and 71.6% of respondents expressing trust for the Iraqi men and women trying to bring about peace. The Interim Government of Iraq (IGI) is trusted by 65.1% of Iraqi citizens. Iraqi courts and judges -- critical in implementing the rule of law in Iraq -- maintain the trust of 64.4% of respondents.

Quote:

Recent public opinion surveys conducted by IRI show Iraqis to be surprisingly optimistic about their future and much stronger supporters of democracy than many new reports would lead you to believe.

Over 51% of Iraqis polled felt that their country is headed in "the right direction," up slightly from IRI's May/June poll. More telling, the number who feel that things are heading in "the wrong direction" has dropped from 39% to 31% over the same time period.

Some of this confidence may be a result of wide public support for the Iraqi Interim Government. Prime Minister Allawi holds an enviable approval rating, with 66% rating him as either "very effective" or "somewhat effective." Likewise, President al-Yawer enjoys the support of 60.6% of Iraqis polled who say that they "completely trust" or "somewhat trust" him.

In a stunning display of support for democracy and a strong rebuttal to critics of efforts to bring democratic reform to Iraq, 87% of Iraqis indicated that they plan to vote in January elections. Expanding on the theme, 77% said that "regular, fair elections" were the most important political right for the Iraqi people and 58% felt that Iraqi-style democracy was likely to succeed.

Looking forward to the drafting of the new constitution, a cumulative 67% place a strong importance on the preservation of a unified state, with 56% citing this as issue of primary importance. On the role of religion in determining the new constitution, while support for Shiri'a law is strong at nearly 70%, there is divided opinion on whether the government should create a secular state that respects the rights of all religious, tribal and ethnic groups with 49% agreeing and 40% disagreeing.

Support for political parties remains largely undefined with 80% not identifying with any political party. In determining who they would support, a large plurality of Iraqis, nearly 45%, say that a militia attached to a political party would make them less inclined to vote for that party. Only 7% indicated that the presence of a militia would make them more inclined to support a party. Among those polled, religious leaders enjoyed the support of 30% as possible election candidates, with university professors (24%) and party leaders (15.5%) rounding out the top three preferences. Iraqis further indicated a strong preference for "modern" (64%) versus "traditional" (18%) candidates, while also preferring "religious" (69%) candidates to "secular" (24%) ones.

Now while the 'religious' leader bit worries me, the 'modern' over 'traditional' gives me hope there as well.

Pretty good for a country that had its last government filling mass graves.

mml · 09-16-2004, 09:48 AM

I think, that in the long run, most Iraqi citizens will be pleased that Saddam and his Bathist government are gone. Right now, much of the country is in turmoil and random violence is an everyday occurance regardless of who you are or who you support. Many innocents have died and while many others would have died under Saddam, those who have suffered loss primarily see the US as the cause of their grief. Is Iraq better off? In some ways yes, in some ways no. The question remains and will remain unanswerable for quite a long time.

onetime2 · 09-16-2004, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mml

I think, that in the long run, most Iraqi citizens will be pleased that Saddam and his Bathist government are gone. Right now, much of the country is in turmoil and random violence is an everyday occurance regardless of who you are or who you support. Many innocents have died and while many others would have died under Saddam, those who have suffered loss primarily see the US as the cause of their grief. Is Iraq better off? In some ways yes, in some ways no. The question remains and will remain unanswerable for quite a long time.

I agree completely.

Further, I think the original question needs to be refined. Is the world better off now that Hussein is out of power? I say absolutely. Iraq's neighbors are safer. The Middle East, today, has a chance to see things truly change and prove that they can progress beyond the hatred and death that has punctuated their histories. The chances of it happening remain slim but they are still there. With Hussein still in power the Iraqi people and the region had very little chance to accomplish significant change. And the world is free of a dictator who, through his open disregarded of any attempts to curtail his behavior, encouraged others to ignore sanctions and rebukes by other nations.

smooth · 09-16-2004, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

People seem to have it in their head that Iraq is a backwards nation. Of all the middle east, Iraq and Syria are the most westernized, with the highest standard of living.

yeah, superbelt, that helps with the notion that we are their salvation.

it smacks of the "white man's burden" -- so we ought not be surprised to see this theme raised and repeated in defense of our actions over there.

Ustwo · 09-16-2004, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

yeah, superbelt, that helps with the notion that we are their salvation.

it smacks of the "white man's burden" -- so we ought not be surprised to see this theme raised and repeated in defense of our actions over there.

Not at all for me, in fact its just the opposite. The fact that they were not backwards means democracy has a better chance.

Rekna · 09-16-2004, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrsRight41401

It wasn't guaranteed before the war either and now they have it more than before. Cities that never had electricity before now have it for 6 hours of the day. Running water is now clean and doesn't have to be boiled. There was violence in the streets daily and that happens in a minority of the towns - small strongholds that cause a lot of death. There are LOTS of towns that are seeing peace and prosperity without the fear of Saddam coming in and taking their children for his child army.
Rachel

Please back this up with sources. Everything I have read from sources like Time say otherwise.

As for your comment on the majority likes us there I think you are over estimating the population amounts drastically. I think it is closer to similar amounts do and don't want us there and a chunk in the middle just wants the violence to stop so they can live in peace.

MrsRight41401 · 09-16-2004, 10:27 AM

My sources are not quotable - so I agree that they are shaky. I get my sources from the soldiers that are coming back who are turning on the water and turning on the electricity and working to keep it up.

I concede that point.

Rachel

Ustwo · 09-16-2004, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrsRight41401

My sources are not quotable - so I agree that they are shaky. I get my sources from the soldiers that are coming back who are turning on the water and turning on the electricity and working to keep it up.

I concede that point.

Rachel

I'd take a soldiers word to you over a reporters story any day.

MrsRight41401 · 09-16-2004, 10:45 AM

This isn't just any soldier - this is a an who entrusts me with his balls everyday.

LOL

Rachel

Kurtz · 09-16-2004, 11:00 AM

I'm sure it just depends on who and where. In some areas, things are probably much better than they were five or ten years ago, in some areas it is probably much worse. I think another thing that needs to be kept in mind is that even in the areas where Iraqis are not better off, there is a real chance that they will be soon. Some of the things going on are kinda like teething pains, in the long run things will be better.

Also, my understanding is that in most cases Iraq is still a better place to be than Iran or Syria or the Sudan. Or North Korea, for that matter.

pedro padilla · 09-17-2004, 09:53 PM

ustwo - congratulations on your upcoming parenthood. after several months of reading your posts (and disagreeing 90% of the time) i would like to suggest a new thread. how do you picture his or her future? best and worst case scenarios.
is an american youth in 2020 going to be better off given current policy? compared to an iraqi kid born in the next few months?
no doubt this is a concern. I´d honestly be interested.
and no, the iraqis are not better off. their lives will continue to get worse and worse. the afghanis lives are improving because without the taliban they have once again had a bumper opium crop. any rebuilding money is quickly sucked up and diverted to offshore accounts. the funds for iraq are being diverted to more security (meaning private contracts) for occupying (!) troops and guarding oil fields and pipelines.
the average iraqi picking turds out of their drinking water before boiling it 10 times are not better off. on the contrary. their great grandchildren will suffer from the arrogance, errors in judgement and delusions of grandeur of the current administration. and your great grandchildren will.....?

DJ Happy · 09-19-2004, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

People seem to have it in their head that Iraq is a backwards nation. Of all the middle east, Iraq and Syria are the most westernized, with the highest standard of living.

Where did you get this info from? I find it very hard to believe that Iraq and Syria offer higher standards of living than Kuwait, the UAE or Qatar, or are more westernized than Lebanon, the UAE or Egypt.

In two recent studies carried out in the Middle East, one by the BBC and the other by Al Watan, a Saudi newspaper, more people in the region side with Osama Bin Laden than George Bush - not because they like Bin Laden, but because they absolutely detest Bush.

I find it hard to be optimistic about Iraq's future. Ironically, the removal of Saddam has opened up the doors for the first time to many of the elements that the US alleged were already in place in Iraq. Al Qaeda now has strong support in the region and no-one to stop them infiltrating it and establishing themselves. I fear another Taliban regime in Iraq over the course of the next year or so.

SJS111567 · 09-20-2004, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

I was thinking about this today. Are the Iraqi's currently better off? Water, food, electricity, and other necesities aren't gaurenteed on a day to day basis.

Those "necessities" are a new found luxury for many Iraqi citizens. Many areas now have safe to drink tap water, electricity, telephones, satelite tv and internet service for the first time ever. Money earned from the sale of oil under U.N. sanctions was supposed to be used for purchasing food and medical supplies. It wasn't. It was used to fund the construction of more palaces, and for the purchase of gold plated submachine guns.

Iraqi hospitals have more and better equipment and supplies now than ever before. Many were depleted from the Iran Iraq war, and are only now equipped to handle things most take for granted, such as vaccinations and pediatric care. Iraq decayed into something less than a third world country under Saddam's rule. I'm seeing it with my own eyes everyday.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

There is violence in their streats daily. I'm sure everyone in the country knows someone who has been killed by this war.

Have you looked at the crime statistics of other countries? Violence happens because of human nature. Violence happens because of accidents. Find the true root of violence, and you may find a way to end it worldwide. I'm sure everyone in France knew someone killed in WWI and again in WWII. I'm sure everyone in Israel knows someone who has been killed by a terrorist bombing. War is hell. War take a heavy toll. Please, be my guest, find a way to eliminate the part of human nature that leads us to make war amongst ourselves. I would be happy to be unemployed due to a lack of necessity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

And it's civilians that are suffereing are being lumped in with "terrorists" (used lightly) when it comes to talking about them.

The coalition forces in Iraq are not fighting terrorists. We never were. We've never pretended to be either. Initially, we fought against the standing military of the Saddam regime. After conquering the Iraqi military, we set about the process of rebuilding it, equipping it, and training the volunteer soldiers. Volunteers? Yes, Iraqi men are no longer forced into the military under threat of "be a soldier or we kill you and your family." It is by choice now, one of the many new found freedoms that the citizens of Iraq now have.

Who are we fighting now? Not terrorists. We are now fighting insurgents. Many may call them terrorists, and I suppose it may be a matter of perspective. If a militia formed in the United States or Great Britian, or any other country, and began targeting government officials for execution, blowing up police stations, and setting off car bombs in crowded market places, would we call them terrorists? Probably. The same people we look at as insurgents, may truthfully be labeled as terrorists by the Iraqi government. Most of the insurgents are Iraqi citizens. Some are not. Some are truly terrorists, who have traveled to Iraq for the sole pleasure of being able to set off huge bombs to kill innocent people, and to try to make sure that the U.S. fails in it's attempt to bring democracy to Iraq.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

Were our founding fathers that fought for our freedom from the British "terrorists"? They didn't follow the rules of war, they aimed for officers, they didn't line up like the british to fight head to head. Instead they hid in trees and pecked them off one at a time.

I don't believe the term had been invented at that time, but if it had been, I think it would be safe to say that Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington et all would definitely have been branded as terrorists.
As I said before, it's a matter of perspective. The Boston Tea Party would more than likely qualify as a terrorist attack on the British economy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

If you back an animal into a corner it will fight (and no i'm not calling iraqi's animals, i'm calling people animals).

Not necessarily. Not when that animal happens to be a human being. Why were the victims of the Nazi concentration camps complacent? Why didn't they rise up and attack en masse, 1000 inmates per guard, and liberate themselves from the camps and systematic extermination? Why did the Iraqi people allow a small handful of brutal tyrants make life hell for them, and cripple the country to the point that it did? Why do so many people from Iraq and other countries try to immigrate, legally or otherwise, to other countries for more freedom and opportunity, instead of staying home and trying to make their own country a better place?

SJS111567 · 09-20-2004, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

Currently our own forces are unable to secure anything outside the green zone and even that is in a dangerously bad state.

You talk without knowledge of the subject. Their are only a select few hot spots in the country. Outside of the Sunni Triangle, life is stable of steadily improving for all Iraqis. Inside the Sunni Triangle, the majority of Iraqi citizens are happy, safe, and prosperous. They are earning more money now than ever before, and enjoying many new found freedoms and luxuries.
The large number of satelite dishes on homes and the new luxury cars on the roads speak for themselves. The markets are full of fresh fruits and vegetables for the first time in what I'm told is years.

The Green Zone (think Baghdad Beverly Hills) is a target for attacks by the insurgents because that is where the new Iraqi government is headquartered.

Most of the patrols by U.S. forces in and around Baghdad see nothing more exciting than happy children waving at them as they drive past. It's really the exception to the norm for one of our convoys to be attacked, either by small arms fire or IEDs.

spacealligator · 09-20-2004, 11:00 AM

soon we'll have to get out of there and once we do, all hell will break loose - the best outcome and a most likely scenario is that after a period of civil war, Iran will step in and take over the whole or parts of Iraq; we will then have to face a more powerful Iran and perhaps another war, far more bloody than the one with Iraq; the end

SJS111567 · 09-20-2004, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

Please back this up with sources. Everything I have read from sources like Time say otherwise.

I can tell you from first hand experience, on a daily basis, power lines are being run through neighborhoods where they did not previously exist. Water treatment plants that had not been functioning in more than 10 years are being brought online so that clean drinking water is available. Phone lines are also being strung, and cell phone towers are being erected. I was personally involved in the delivery of more than 150 pallets of medical supplies to one hospital in Baghdad. Beds, defibrillators, medicine, surgical supplies, x-ray equipment, vaccines, even prenatal vitamins, baby formula, and diapers. An area where prenatal care was non existant for more than a decade is now able to provide quality prenatal care to expecting mothers and their unborn children.

powerclown · 09-20-2004, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spacealligator

soon we'll have to get out of there and once we do, all hell will break loose - the best outcome and a most likely scenario is that after a period of civil war, Iran will step in and take over the whole or parts of Iraq; we will then have to face a more powerful Iran and perhaps another war, far more bloody than the one with Iraq; the end

Patience, grasshoppah.
You might be correct; but after the US elections are over, word has it that there are going to be MAJOR operations aimed at ridding the country of the insurgents in the 'Sunni Triangle' and clearing the way for the Iraqis to elect their own leader. Its going to be a very interesting upcoming 4 months.

hammer4all · 09-21-2004, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Interesting....

Quote:

AGHDAD, Iraq, Sept. 8 /PRNewswire/ -- The latest polling numbers released today by the Iraq office of the International Republican Institute highlight the democratic aspirations of the Iraqi people. These results are from a public opinion survey fielded throughout the nation between August 10th and 20th.

Give me a f*cking break. You're quoting a press release by the International Republican Institute--an Republican organ which only serves to promote its ultraconservative foreign policy agenda. These are the same fascists nuts who, just this year, helped overthrow the democratically elected leader in Haiti.

Did the Bush Administration Allow a Network of Right-Wing Republicans to Foment a Violent Coup in Haiti?

The International Republican Institute: Promulgating Democracy of Another Variety

hammer4all · 09-21-2004, 01:21 AM

Here are some real poll results in raw data and in articles that I have collected:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...q-findings.htm

http://www.msnbc.com/modules/newswee...l_14-23May.pdf

Quote:

WASHINGTON - A poll of Iraqis commissioned by the U.S.-governing authority has provided the Bush administration a stark picture of anti-American sentiment — more than half of Iraqis believe they would be safer if U.S. troops simply left.

The poll, commissioned by the Coalition Provisional Authority last month but not released to the American public, also found radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is surging in popularity, 92 percent of Iraqis consider the United States an occupying force and more than half believe all Americans behave like those portrayed in the Abu Ghraib prison abuse photos.

Poll of Iraqis Reveals Anger Toward US

Quote:

WASHINGTON — Four out of five Iraqis report holding a negative view of the U.S. occupation authority and of coalition forces, according to a new poll conducted for the occupation authority.

In the poll, 80 percent of Iraqis surveyed reported a lack of confidence in the Coalition Provisional Authority, and 82 percent said they disapprove of the United States and allied militaries in Iraq.

82 percent of Iraqis oppose U.S. occupation

All of these numbers are rather old and before the recent up tick on Iraqi resistance.

hammer4all · 09-21-2004, 01:34 AM

Come on guys, it doesn't take a whole lot of research to debunk some of the assumptions made by the pro-war crowd.

Quote:

WASHINGTON - In a few key areas - electricity, the judicial system and overall security - the Iraq that America handed back to its residents Monday is worse off than before the war began last year, according to calculations in a new General Accounting Office report released Tuesday.

The 105-page report by Congress' investigative arm offers a bleak assessment of Iraq after 14 months of U.S. military occupation. Among its findings:

-In 13 of Iraq's 18 provinces, electricity was available fewer hours per day on average last month than before the war. Nearly 20 million of Iraq's 26 million people live in those provinces.

-Only $13.7 billion of the $58 billion pledged and allocated worldwide to rebuild Iraq has been spent, with another $10 billion about to be spent. The biggest chunk of that money has been used to run Iraq's ministry operations.

-The country's court system is more clogged than before the war, and judges are frequent targets of assassination attempts.

-The new Iraqi civil defense, police and overall security units are suffering from mass desertions, are poorly trained and ill-equipped.

-The number of what the now-disbanded Coalition Provisional Authority called significant insurgent attacks skyrocketed from 411 in February to 1,169 in May.

Iraq is Worse Off Than Before the War Began, GAO Reports

Rekna · 09-22-2004, 07:28 AM

Here is an article from time magazine. It is a few months old (July 19th issue) but Iraq definatly hasn't gotten better since then.

Quote:

Living With The Fear
In Iraq the daily grind involves power shortages and terrifying violence. Here's one family's story
By JOHANNA MCGEARY/BAGHDAD

Jul. 19, 2004
These days Mohammed Amin Radhy opens his pediatric clinic only three days a week, for three hours at a time. In the new Baghdad, it's a life-or-death journey just to travel the 3 1/2 miles from his home in the elegant Mansour district to his office in a dicey part of the city near Tahrir Square. And when he does go to work, he encounters grim suffering he never expected to see. On a recent weekday a woman, swathed head to toe in a black aba, tugs her wailing child up the pitch-black stairs to the clinic. As usual, the electricity is out. She feels her way along the lightless hall until they reach the office, a dim, dingy room with a desk, a sink, a scale and an ancient examination table covered by a dusty black cloth. Everything in the once fine clinic was looted or wrecked a year ago.

Dripping with sweat, Dr. Radhy waves a straw fan at his face as he examines the child in the sweltering morning heat. The little girl has whooping cough, a disease rarely seen over the past decade among middle-class children like her. In the past year, says the doctor, poor hygiene, malnutrition and a lack of vaccines have spread such ailments into every neighborhood. Parents, fearful of braving Baghdad's streets, "wait to come until the child is very bad," he says. This girl has arrived in time to be cured by available medicine.

Back home that afternoon in the sanctuary of his high, airy living room, Dr. Radhy says his family begs him not to return to the clinic. He is 74, retired, and can keep his family comfortable on his savings and income from inherited real estate. He holds plenty of cash on hand "because you never know what might happen." When Baghdadis leave their homes each morning, they know that a bomb or rocket or gun might add them to the city's lengthening civilian-casualty list. Traffic adds hours to the peril, as cars move at an agonizingly slow pace through improvised checkpoints and blocked-off streets. "My family says the profit is not enough, the suffering of the journey too great," says Radhy, who travels in the anonymity of a rattletrap city taxi because kidnappers often target doctors who can afford ransom payments. "But if I do not go, a lot of people will get no care at all."

If the Radhys lived almost anywhere else in the world, they would enjoy the easy lifestyle of well-to-do professionals. But here in post — Saddam Hussein Iraq, nothing is normal for any family in any neighborhood. For the well off and well educated, the past year has been a shocking plunge into the abyss. The rules of civil society have broken down just as badly as the country's power grid. Assault, robbery, rape, kidnapping, suicide bombing, carjacking and street battles are now commonplace. Baghdadis live in permanent fear, locked for safety behind high walls and guarded gates in dreary isolation. Young girls don't go out, and even wives accompanied by their husbands rarely venture more than a few blocks. Inside the barricaded residences, life is a mix of boredom and burden as families cope with the aggravations caused by sporadic electricity, backed-up sewage and water that might come on only at 1 a.m. The interim Iraqi government that took power two weeks ago inherits a country desperate to alleviate the misery.

For Ferial Radhy, 62, the doctor's wife, the worst thing is the constant worry. "I do not feel safe, ever," she says. Like most women stuck in the house, she is plagued with nervous anxiety, and her imagination conjures up the most nightmarish dangers. Her street is shared by several high-ranking Iraqi politicians. That means guards armed with Kalashnikovs sit in front of many gates, and one end of the road is closed to cars. But it also means the street is a target for insurgents and criminals. Stray bullets sometimes drop into the garden where her grandchildren play. Last fall the family added five more feet of solid concrete to their shoulder-high perimeter wall and topped it with concertina wire. Even so, they fear intrusion. The other night, at 2 a.m., a guard next door suddenly opened fire, jolting the Radhys awake. They had no idea why he was shooting, but the doctor and his son Ali grabbed their pistols and stood guard over the property for the rest of the night.

Fear has crept into the family's very blood, says Dr. Radhy. "We can't eat well, we can't sleep well," he says. "We don't even want to work." Almost every member of the family is suffering from chronic depression, unable even to imagine how things might improve. "The young cannot think of tomorrow because they see only a dark tunnel," he says. Every night Ferial says she prays to God for a better future. "I just keep waiting," she whispers. Her daughter Nafret, 38, puts an arm around her shoulders. "If we don't have any hope," Nafret says, "how can we be human?"

Among all the potential dangers, the most frightening is the threat of kidnapping (see following story). While Western TV concentrates on the few foreign hostages, hundreds of Iraqis have been taken captive, usually for money, and some have been killed when their families could not meet the ransom demands. A neighbor's 9-year-old son was playing outdoors a few weeks ago when a man in a minibus stopped, got out and asked the boy for help restarting the vehicle. The youngster agreed and got into the front seat when the man asked him to push the starter. Before he could do so, an observant neighbor ran in front of the van shouting to the boy "Out!" As the boy fled, the driver jumped back into the car and sped away. "We didn't know if it was a kidnapping or a car bomb," says the doctor. "But that's the kind of danger we face every day." He knows two men whose sons were kidnapped and released after payment of large ransoms. Both families immediately left the country.

The lack of security is driving the country's best and brightest to leave, or at least send their children away. It's a particularly cruel option for Iraqis used to living together in extended clans. The doctor has two married daughters living abroad, and Nafret's dour husband Firas, 40, says his family would leave too if they could afford to. The couple and their two children share the home with Nafret's family. Firas can see no way out of Iraq's current misery. "Everything is bad," says Firas. "Very bad." He and his father-in-law squabble over whom to blame. "Real victory is raising suffering people up. That's what Bush promised," says the doctor. No, replies Firas, "he said only freedom and democracy. We have freedom and democracy, and we're worse off." But Firas insists today's troubles are the toxic legacy of Saddam. "After 40 years of damage by Saddam," he says, "Iraqis don't know how to use freedom." The doctor retorts, "If you keep blaming Saddam, we will not go forward." Radhy does not lash out at the U.S. the way many Iraqis do, but he is troubled by the occupation's failure to bring much more than hopeful notions to Iraq. "We keep asking ourselves," he says, "how a country as great as America, after one year, can't keep electricity running, can't keep us safe, can't bring us clean water. These questions need explanations."

Nafret sighs. Quarrels are to be expected among families cooped up so much of every day, unable to relieve the tension with a night out at a restaurant or by visiting friends. The children, she says, fight constantly as well because she must say no to almost everything they ask. "They don't behave normally anymore," says Nafret. "All they can do is watch Spacetoon." She kept her son home from kindergarten last year because she was worried about his safety. He missed nothing, her husband interjects, because everything about the school "is very bad." The only entertainment for kids and adults is endless television. In most houses, small private generators keep the TVs going through the daily blackouts. With school out and summer heat above 110°F every day, young people stay up to watch TV in the cool of the night and then sleep till noon. Many Baghdad kids, notes the doctor, have acquired a pasty yellow pallor. Some are getting fat from lack of exercise. His son, an engineer who refused to work for Saddam and now cannot find a job, is hugely obese from years of idleness. The doctor chafes that he cannot use the Internet to refresh his medical knowledge. After years of being cut off from outside contact under Saddam, he had hoped that by now he could tap into foreign research. But the phone lines are too weak to connect to the Web. "I was so hopeful," he says, "and I still find myself contained in a box."

Baghdadis have learned to program their lives around the vagaries of electric power. When it's on, they rush to do everything that requires it, from running water pumps to powering the kids' PlayStation. In Mansour the Radhys have electricity four or five hours a day, no more than during last summer despite repeated promises of improvement. And they never know which four hours it will be, so the women can find themselves doing laundry at dawn or filling water cisterns at midnight. A male in the family has to go out every day for ice to keep food from spoiling.

Nafret worked for the British consul before the first Gulf War closed the embassy. She would like to find a job again, but her family will not allow her to venture out into the city. So she has no respite from the tedium of her days. She can go to the neighborhood food market only when her husband, busy most days at his job at a radio-installation company, can escort her. But buying tea and soap isn't much of a treat. She has not been able to shop for clothes at the nice stores across town in Karrada for more than a year. If she travels just a few blocks to visit friends, she must make elaborate arrangements to be picked up by her husband in his car. Taxis, which are often driven by thugs or terrorists, are far too dangerous. Women who used to go out wearing gold jewelry and makeup no longer display even wedding rings outside the house. Though many women among Iraq's educated middle class now don head scarves as protection from the dirty looks of religious extremists in the streets, Nafret refuses. "That's not my style, and I won't do it," she says. She is bitter about the restrictions that "freedom" has brought her and repeats the cynical saying often heard from Baghdadis: The terrorists are free to shoot us in the streets, and we are free to stay locked up in our houses. "If you can't do anything," she says, "you can't say it's life."

The doctor says he tries to keep the family's spirits up and encourage positive thinking. But that's virtually impossible. "People are so fed up," he says, worn out by the struggle just to survive. His son-in-law stares impassively at him as he argues that the new government can do better in restoring security because its leaders are Iraqis and, unlike the Americans, understand Iraqi society. Nafret mutters her skepticism. Her husband breaks in with a fierce declaration: "They must!" For families like the Radhys, it's that simple.

gcbrowni · 09-22-2004, 07:33 AM

Are the dissidents wives still getting raped and tortured as a matter of public policy?

Rekna · 09-22-2004, 07:39 AM

I'm not so sure anarchy is better than a dictatorship. GWB needs to find a way to get IRAQI support within Iraq. This is something that is falling every day. Running and gunning is not the way to gain their support. It is probably already to late.

When we first invaded we were set up very nicely. The majority wanted us there but now they don't. This is a problem.

Here are some quick stats from this weeks time.

US deaths in Iraq by month:

Jan: 47
Feb: 19
March: 52
April: 147
May: 88
June: 44
July 61
Aug: 71
Sept (through the 10th): 29
September linearly projected: 90ish

The resistance and violence is growing.

vpbar73 · 09-24-2004, 04:08 PM

Hmmm.... They say they are better off and very thankful for the coalition effort. Isnt that good enough?
If I asked you if you were better off and relied on someone else to answer for you how would you feel?

pedro padilla · 09-26-2004, 05:16 PM

Ustwo, MIA. what happen? Don´t worry, Bush will probably be in office for the next 20 years and if you´re under 35 years of age you can catch the Baghdad nightlife together with Jr. in a few decades. Because, Payaso, we´ll still be there.

09-16-2004, 07:53 AM	#1 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Are Iraqi's Better Off? I was thinking about this today. Are the Iraqi's currently better off? Water, food, electricity, and other necesities aren't gaurenteed on a day to day basis. There is violence in their streats daily. I'm sure everyone in the country knows someone who has been killed by this war. Iraq seems to be on the middle of a civil war that will erupt into a power vacume for many years. And it's civilians that are suffereing are being lumped in with "terrorists" (used lightly) when it comes to talking about them. What makes an Iraqi life worth less than an American one? If an occuping power was doing a forced regiem change in your country and had killed many people you know would you not fight back? If you fought back is it fair to label you as a terrorist? Were our founding fathers that fought for our freedom from the British "terrorists"? They didn't follow the rules of war, they aimed for officers, they didn't line up like the british to fight head to head. Instead they hid in trees and pecked them off one at a time. If you back an animal into a corner it will fight (and no i'm not calling iraqi's animals, i'm calling people animals).

09-16-2004, 09:30 AM	#13 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	The one thing most people are, no matter how smart they may be, is short sighted. Its almost tragic that people can only see the now or maybe the tomorrow, but rarely do they look beyond that. I am one of those who do, and the best way to gauge tomorrow is to look at the past. As such I’ve already read as much history as I could, took 300 level classes in college that gave me no credit as a biology major but I just wanted to take, and I’ve always had a love of archeology. Time truly does seem to flow, once you know enough of the past you can see the trends, see the evolution, see the direction. The concept of ‘ancient civilizations’ is lost, it is just civilization, and you come to know the Romans, Egyptians, Chinese etc were no more primitive, no more less intelligent, no more selfish then you. We feel very proud of ourselves, but try going without power and natural gas for a month and you will find your ancestors really knew what they were doing. Sadly, I know sooner or later ‘Western’ civilization will fail. It won’t have to be a war, or hostile take over (though it could be), but the ideals and values will be gone. Some people have a hard time grasping this, but so would a citizen at the height of the Roman Empire who thought their way of life would last forever too. Now in just over two months, baring any medical difficulties, I will be a father for the first time. With any luck I’ll have more children in the future. As my genes will go so will history. Four generations from now, I’ll be lucky if my youngest descendants will know my name on a family tree, in ten generations I’ll be lucky if they knew where the family came from. Who knows what system of government they will live under. It might be utopian, and that would be nice, but it might well be a brutal dictatorship of a sort as well. There will always be people willing to be the next Saddam Hussein, next Uncle Joe, next Pol Pot, and perhaps your and my decedents will be subjugated by one of these types. If that is the case, I can only hope that some future nation is willing to risk their own citizens, their own currency, their own lives to make my decedents free again. Who knows that nation might even be Iraq. I don’t think they will complain about the water not running immediately after. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-16-2004, 10:27 AM	#22 (permalink)
MrsRight41401 Tilted Location: Georgia	My sources are not quotable - so I agree that they are shaky. I get my sources from the soldiers that are coming back who are turning on the water and turning on the electricity and working to keep it up. I concede that point. Rachel __________________ Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. Dr. Seuss

09-16-2004, 10:45 AM	#24 (permalink)
MrsRight41401 Tilted Location: Georgia	This isn't just any soldier - this is a an who entrusts me with his balls everyday. LOL Rachel __________________ Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. Dr. Seuss

09-20-2004, 11:00 AM	#30 (permalink)
spacealligator Upright Location: los angeles	civil war is coming soon we'll have to get out of there and once we do, all hell will break loose - the best outcome and a most likely scenario is that after a period of civil war, Iran will step in and take over the whole or parts of Iraq; we will then have to face a more powerful Iran and perhaps another war, far more bloody than the one with Iraq; the end

09-16-2004, 08:59 AM	#3 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	I don't have any facts to back up the following statements, but they are the impression that I get from hearing the news. When Hussain was still in power, you had to worry about pissing off the government, and if you did, your life was in danger. Now, your life is in danger from much more random attacks; improvised explosives, car bombs, etc. You are no longer in "control" of your own risk level.

09-16-2004, 09:05 AM	#4 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	US Intelligence recently released a report that was extremely brutal in it's projections of Iraq's long term political stability, even under the best of circumstances. Currently our own forces are unable to secure anything outside the green zone and even that is in a dangerously bad state.

09-16-2004, 09:07 AM	#5 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	WASHINGTON, Sept. 15 - A classified National Intelligence Estimate prepared for President Bush in late July spells out a dark assessment of prospects for Iraq, government officials said Wednesday. The estimate outlines three possibilities for Iraq through the end of 2005, with the worst case being developments that could lead to civil war, the officials said. The most favorable outcome described is an Iraq whose stability would remain tenuous in political, economic and security terms. "There's a significant amount of pessimism," said one government official who has read the document, which runs about 50 pages. The officials declined to discuss the key judgments - concise, carefully written statements of intelligence analysts' conclusions - included in the document. The intelligence estimate, the first on Iraq since October 2002, was prepared by the National Intelligence Council and was approved by the National Foreign Intelligence Board under John E. McLaughlin, the acting director of central intelligence. Such estimates can be requested by the White House or Congress, but this one was initiated by the intelligence council under George J. Tenet, who stepped down as director of central intelligence on July 9, the government officials said. As described by the officials, the pessimistic tone of the new estimate stands in contrast to recent statements by Bush administration officials, including comments on Wednesday by Scott McClellan, the White House spokesman, who asserted that progress was being made. "You know, every step of the way in Iraq there have been pessimists and hand-wringers who said it can't be done," Mr. McClellan said at a news briefing. "And every step of the way, the Iraqi leadership and the Iraqi people have proven them wrong because they are determined to have a free and peaceful future." President Bush, who was briefed on the new intelligence estimate, has not significantly changed the tenor of his public remarks on the war's course over the summer, consistently emphasizing progress while acknowledging the difficulties. Mr. Bush's opponent, Senator John Kerry, criticized the administration's optimistic public position on Iraq on Wednesday and questioned whether it would be possible to hold elections there in January. "I think it is very difficult to see today how you're going to distribute ballots in places like Falluja, and Ramadi and Najaf and other parts of the country, without having established the security,'' Mr. Kerry said in a call-in phone call to Don Imus, the radio talk show host. "I know that the people who are supposed to run that election believe that they need a longer period of time and greater security before they can even begin to do it, and they just can't do it at this point in time. So I'm not sure the president is being honest with the American people about that situation either at this point.'' The situation in Iraq prompted harsh comments from Republicans and Democrats at a hearing into the shift of spending from reconstruction to security. Senator Richard G. Lugar of Indiana, chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, called it "exasperating for anybody look at this from any vantage point," and Senator Chuck Hagel, Republican of Nebraska, said of the overall lack of spending: "It's beyond pitiful, it's beyond embarrassing. It is now in the zone of dangerous." A spokesman for the Central Intelligence Agency declined to comment on any new intelligence estimate. All the officials who described the assessment said they had read the document or had been briefed on its findings. The officials included both critics and supporters of the administration's policies in Iraq. But they insisted they not be identified by name, agency or branch of government because the document remained highly classified. The new estimate revisits issues raised by the intelligence council in less formal assessments in January 2003, the officials said. Those documents remain classified, but one of them warned that the building of democracy in Iraq would be a long, difficult and turbulent prospect that could include internal conflict, a government official said. The new estimate by the National Intelligence Council was approved at a meeting in July by Mr. McLaughlin and the heads of the other intelligence agencies, the officials said.

09-16-2004, 09:13 AM	#7 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	An Iraqi life is worth no less than an American life. Although some Americans would probably like to believe that, it is not the case. And nobody has a right to call the Iraqis terrorist for fighting back. In the eyes of the Iraqis, the Americans are the real terrorists. You can’t blame the Iraqis for fighting back, its only natural to fight when your country is wrongly invaded. Had it been America that was wrongly invaded, nukes would start to fly. So all in all, Iraq is no safer than it was under Saddam (not yet anyway), and chances are it wont be for quite a while. The violence will probably escalate in that country from now on and I doubt it will get any better. It is unfortunate, but like you said, people are animals.

09-16-2004, 09:17 AM	#9 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	People seem to have it in their head that Iraq is a backwards nation. Of all the middle east, Iraq and Syria are the most westernized, with the highest standard of living.

09-16-2004, 09:20 AM	#10 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Here's another blog from an Iraqi. This one is quite famous too. Her name is riverbend. http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/ And don't forget the MOST famous Iraqi blogger, Salam Pax http://www.thebaghdadblog.com/home/

09-16-2004, 09:20 AM	#11 (permalink)
MrsRight41401 Tilted Location: Georgia	Iraq definately is one of the most advanced nations in the large cities, however the way money has been handled by the regime has deprived many of the small areas. Rachel

09-16-2004, 09:21 AM	#12 (permalink)
MrsRight41401 Tilted Location: Georgia	PS. Try to make sense of what I say - ask if I don't make sense. I'm working on 30 minutes sleep last night.

09-16-2004, 09:48 AM	#17 (permalink)
mml Adrift Location: Wandering in the Desert of Life	I think, that in the long run, most Iraqi citizens will be pleased that Saddam and his Bathist government are gone. Right now, much of the country is in turmoil and random violence is an everyday occurance regardless of who you are or who you support. Many innocents have died and while many others would have died under Saddam, those who have suffered loss primarily see the US as the cause of their grief. Is Iraq better off? In some ways yes, in some ways no. The question remains and will remain unanswerable for quite a long time.

09-16-2004, 11:00 AM	#25 (permalink)
Kurtz Upright	I'm sure it just depends on who and where. In some areas, things are probably much better than they were five or ten years ago, in some areas it is probably much worse. I think another thing that needs to be kept in mind is that even in the areas where Iraqis are not better off, there is a real chance that they will be soon. Some of the things going on are kinda like teething pains, in the long run things will be better. Also, my understanding is that in most cases Iraq is still a better place to be than Iran or Syria or the Sudan. Or North Korea, for that matter.

09-17-2004, 09:53 PM	#26 (permalink)
pedro padilla Insane	ustwo - congratulations on your upcoming parenthood. after several months of reading your posts (and disagreeing 90% of the time) i would like to suggest a new thread. how do you picture his or her future? best and worst case scenarios. is an american youth in 2020 going to be better off given current policy? compared to an iraqi kid born in the next few months? no doubt this is a concern. I´d honestly be interested. and no, the iraqis are not better off. their lives will continue to get worse and worse. the afghanis lives are improving because without the taliban they have once again had a bumper opium crop. any rebuilding money is quickly sucked up and diverted to offshore accounts. the funds for iraq are being diverted to more security (meaning private contracts) for occupying (!) troops and guarding oil fields and pipelines. the average iraqi picking turds out of their drinking water before boiling it 10 times are not better off. on the contrary. their great grandchildren will suffer from the arrogance, errors in judgement and delusions of grandeur of the current administration. and your great grandchildren will.....?

09-22-2004, 07:33 AM	#37 (permalink)
gcbrowni Tilted Location: Indianapolis	Are the dissidents wives still getting raped and tortured as a matter of public policy? __________________ From the day of his birth Gilgamesh was called by name.

09-22-2004, 07:39 AM	#38 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	I'm not so sure anarchy is better than a dictatorship. GWB needs to find a way to get IRAQI support within Iraq. This is something that is falling every day. Running and gunning is not the way to gain their support. It is probably already to late. When we first invaded we were set up very nicely. The majority wanted us there but now they don't. This is a problem. Here are some quick stats from this weeks time. US deaths in Iraq by month: Jan: 47 Feb: 19 March: 52 April: 147 May: 88 June: 44 July 61 Aug: 71 Sept (through the 10th): 29 September linearly projected: 90ish The resistance and violence is growing.

09-24-2004, 04:08 PM	#39 (permalink)
vpbar73 Upright	Hmmm.... They say they are better off and very thankful for the coalition effort. Isnt that good enough? If I asked you if you were better off and relied on someone else to answer for you how would you feel?

09-26-2004, 05:16 PM	#40 (permalink)
pedro padilla Insane	Ustwo, MIA. what happen? Don´t worry, Bush will probably be in office for the next 20 years and if you´re under 35 years of age you can catch the Baghdad nightlife together with Jr. in a few decades. Because, Payaso, we´ll still be there.