Are Iraqi's Better Off?
 

I was thinking about this today. Are the Iraqi's currently better off? Water, food, electricity, and other necesities aren't gaurenteed on a day to day basis. There is violence in their streats daily. I'm sure everyone in the country knows someone who has been killed by this war. Iraq seems to be on the middle of a civil war that will erupt into a power vacume for many years. And it's civilians that are suffereing are being lumped in with "terrorists" (used lightly) when it comes to talking about them.

What makes an Iraqi life worth less than an American one? If an occuping power was doing a forced regiem change in your country and had killed many people you know would you not fight back? If you fought back is it fair to label you as a terrorist? Were our founding fathers that fought for our freedom from the British "terrorists"? They didn't follow the rules of war, they aimed for officers, they didn't line up like the british to fight head to head. Instead they hid in trees and pecked them off one at a time.

If you back an animal into a corner it will fight (and no i'm not calling iraqi's animals, i'm calling people animals).

Yep
 

It wasn't guaranteed before the war either and now they have it more than before. Cities that never had electricity before now have it for 6 hours of the day. Running water is now clean and doesn't have to be boiled. There was violence in the streets daily and that happens in a minority of the towns - small strongholds that cause a lot of death. There are LOTS of towns that are seeing peace and prosperity without the fear of Saddam coming in and taking their children for his child army.

The majority of Iraqis are not fighting and are grateful for our help. My husband just spent a few months there doing some work and he was treated VERY well by the Iraqis. We have many friends there that we keep in touch with.

Are there problems? Yes. Are they the most common occurrence - nope. But it's not sensational so the US media isn't talkin' about them.

Rachel

I don't have any facts to back up the following statements, but they are the impression that I get from hearing the news.

When Hussain was still in power, you had to worry about pissing off the government, and if you did, your life was in danger.

Now, your life is in danger from much more random attacks; improvised explosives, car bombs, etc. You are no longer in "control" of your own risk level.

US Intelligence recently released a report that was extremely brutal in it's projections of Iraq's long term political stability, even under the best of circumstances.

Currently our own forces are unable to secure anything outside the green zone and even that is in a dangerously bad state.

WASHINGTON, Sept. 15 - A classified National Intelligence Estimate prepared for President Bush in late July spells out a dark assessment of prospects for Iraq, government officials said Wednesday.

The estimate outlines three possibilities for Iraq through the end of 2005, with the worst case being developments that could lead to civil war, the officials said. The most favorable outcome described is an Iraq whose stability would remain tenuous in political, economic and security terms.

"There's a significant amount of pessimism," said one government official who has read the document, which runs about 50 pages. The officials declined to discuss the key judgments - concise, carefully written statements of intelligence analysts' conclusions - included in the document.

The intelligence estimate, the first on Iraq since October 2002, was prepared by the National Intelligence Council and was approved by the National Foreign Intelligence Board under John E. McLaughlin, the acting director of central intelligence. Such estimates can be requested by the White House or Congress, but this one was initiated by the intelligence council under George J. Tenet, who stepped down as director of central intelligence on July 9, the government officials said.

As described by the officials, the pessimistic tone of the new estimate stands in contrast to recent statements by Bush administration officials, including comments on Wednesday by Scott McClellan, the White House spokesman, who asserted that progress was being made.

"You know, every step of the way in Iraq there have been pessimists and hand-wringers who said it can't be done," Mr. McClellan said at a news briefing. "And every step of the way, the Iraqi leadership and the Iraqi people have proven them wrong because they are determined to have a free and peaceful future."

President Bush, who was briefed on the new intelligence estimate, has not significantly changed the tenor of his public remarks on the war's course over the summer, consistently emphasizing progress while acknowledging the difficulties.

Mr. Bush's opponent, Senator John Kerry, criticized the administration's optimistic public position on Iraq on Wednesday and questioned whether it would be possible to hold elections there in January.

"I think it is very difficult to see today how you're going to distribute ballots in places like Falluja, and Ramadi and Najaf and other parts of the country, without having established the security,'' Mr. Kerry said in a call-in phone call to Don Imus, the radio talk show host. "I know that the people who are supposed to run that election believe that they need a longer period of time and greater security before they can even begin to do it, and they just can't do it at this point in time. So I'm not sure the president is being honest with the American people about that situation either at this point.''

The situation in Iraq prompted harsh comments from Republicans and Democrats at a hearing into the shift of spending from reconstruction to security. Senator Richard G. Lugar of Indiana, chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, called it "exasperating for anybody look at this from any vantage point," and Senator Chuck Hagel, Republican of Nebraska, said of the overall lack of spending: "It's beyond pitiful, it's beyond embarrassing. It is now in the zone of dangerous."

A spokesman for the Central Intelligence Agency declined to comment on any new intelligence estimate.

All the officials who described the assessment said they had read the document or had been briefed on its findings. The officials included both critics and supporters of the administration's policies in Iraq. But they insisted they not be identified by name, agency or branch of government because the document remained highly classified.

The new estimate revisits issues raised by the intelligence council in less formal assessments in January 2003, the officials said. Those documents remain classified, but one of them warned that the building of democracy in Iraq would be a long, difficult and turbulent prospect that could include internal conflict, a government official said.

The new estimate by the National Intelligence Council was approved at a meeting in July by Mr. McLaughlin and the heads of the other intelligence agencies, the officials said.

Average megawattage of electricity generated in Iraq each day last year before the invasion : 4,500
Coalition Provisional Authority (Baghdad)

Average megawattage generated there each day in June : 4,300
Coalition Provisional Authority (Baghdad)

Percentage of Iraq’s urban areas with access to potable water a year ago and today, respectively: 92, 60
Coalition Provisional Authority (Baghdad)/World Health Organization (Geneva)

http://www.harpers.org

An Iraqi life is worth no less than an American life. Although some Americans would probably like to believe that, it is not the case. And nobody has a right to call the Iraqis terrorist for fighting back. In the eyes of the Iraqis, the Americans are the real terrorists. You can’t blame the Iraqis for fighting back, its only natural to fight when your country is wrongly invaded. Had it been America that was wrongly invaded, nukes would start to fly. So all in all, Iraq is no safer than it was under Saddam (not yet anyway), and chances are it wont be for quite a while. The violence will probably escalate in that country from now on and I doubt it will get any better. It is unfortunate, but like you said, people are animals.

A Blog from an Iraqi

I have been following these blogs for a long time because I find them to be one of the most honest and unbiased answers to the, "Did we do the right thing" question.

Anyway - that is just an example. I enjoy reading this blog and many of the other blogs from Iraqis. It really is a look through their eyes. Are there bad things happening, yep... but they dwarf in comparison to the good.

Rachel

People seem to have it in their head that Iraq is a backwards nation. Of all the middle east, Iraq and Syria are the most westernized, with the highest standard of living.

Here's another blog from an Iraqi. This one is quite famous too. Her name is riverbend.
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

And don't forget the MOST famous Iraqi blogger, Salam Pax
http://www.thebaghdadblog.com/home/

Iraq definately is one of the most advanced nations in the large cities, however the way money has been handled by the regime has deprived many of the small areas.

Rachel

PS. Try to make sense of what I say - ask if I don't make sense. I'm working on 30 minutes sleep last night.

The one thing most people are, no matter how smart they may be, is short sighted.

Its almost tragic that people can only see the now or maybe the tomorrow, but rarely do they look beyond that. I am one of those who do, and the best way to gauge tomorrow is to look at the past. As such I’ve already read as much history as I could, took 300 level classes in college that gave me no credit as a biology major but I just wanted to take, and I’ve always had a love of archeology. Time truly does seem to flow, once you know enough of the past you can see the trends, see the evolution, see the direction. The concept of ‘ancient civilizations’ is lost, it is just civilization, and you come to know the Romans, Egyptians, Chinese etc were no more primitive, no more less intelligent, no more selfish then you. We feel very proud of ourselves, but try going without power and natural gas for a month and you will find your ancestors really knew what they were doing.

Sadly, I know sooner or later ‘Western’ civilization will fail. It won’t have to be a war, or hostile take over (though it could be), but the ideals and values will be gone. Some people have a hard time grasping this, but so would a citizen at the height of the Roman Empire who thought their way of life would last forever too.

Now in just over two months, baring any medical difficulties, I will be a father for the first time. With any luck I’ll have more children in the future. As my genes will go so will history. Four generations from now, I’ll be lucky if my youngest descendants will know my name on a family tree, in ten generations I’ll be lucky if they knew where the family came from.

Who knows what system of government they will live under. It might be utopian, and that would be nice, but it might well be a brutal dictatorship of a sort as well. There will always be people willing to be the next Saddam Hussein, next Uncle Joe, next Pol Pot, and perhaps your and my decedents will be subjugated by one of these types.

If that is the case, I can only hope that some future nation is willing to risk their own citizens, their own currency, their own lives to make my decedents free again. Who knows that nation might even be Iraq. I don’t think they will complain about the water not running immediately after.

I read those as well. I am pulling from both the blogs and my husband's own experiences in Iraq. There is a lot of bad shit going on over there. Tons of it in fact. However - there is also a lot of good.

We will have to wait and see what the outcome of this is. However, I suspect that early America dealt w/ many of the same problems as Iraq. Different but still the same.

Exactly. Its simply too soon to tell.
In the end, the Iraqis will decide if they want to be better off or not.
And, Congratulations!

Interesting....

Now while the 'religious' leader bit worries me, the 'modern' over 'traditional' gives me hope there as well.


Pretty good for a country that had its last government filling mass graves.

I think, that in the long run, most Iraqi citizens will be pleased that Saddam and his Bathist government are gone. Right now, much of the country is in turmoil and random violence is an everyday occurance regardless of who you are or who you support. Many innocents have died and while many others would have died under Saddam, those who have suffered loss primarily see the US as the cause of their grief. Is Iraq better off? In some ways yes, in some ways no. The question remains and will remain unanswerable for quite a long time.

I agree completely.

Further, I think the original question needs to be refined. Is the world better off now that Hussein is out of power? I say absolutely. Iraq's neighbors are safer. The Middle East, today, has a chance to see things truly change and prove that they can progress beyond the hatred and death that has punctuated their histories. The chances of it happening remain slim but they are still there. With Hussein still in power the Iraqi people and the region had very little chance to accomplish significant change. And the world is free of a dictator who, through his open disregarded of any attempts to curtail his behavior, encouraged others to ignore sanctions and rebukes by other nations.

yeah, superbelt, that helps with the notion that we are their salvation.

it smacks of the "white man's burden" -- so we ought not be surprised to see this theme raised and repeated in defense of our actions over there.

Not at all for me, in fact its just the opposite. The fact that they were not backwards means democracy has a better chance.

Please back this up with sources. Everything I have read from sources like Time say otherwise.

As for your comment on the majority likes us there I think you are over estimating the population amounts drastically. I think it is closer to similar amounts do and don't want us there and a chunk in the middle just wants the violence to stop so they can live in peace.

My sources are not quotable - so I agree that they are shaky. I get my sources from the soldiers that are coming back who are turning on the water and turning on the electricity and working to keep it up.

I concede that point.

Rachel

I'd take a soldiers word to you over a reporters story any day.

This isn't just any soldier - this is a an who entrusts me with his balls everyday.

LOL

Rachel

I'm sure it just depends on who and where. In some areas, things are probably much better than they were five or ten years ago, in some areas it is probably much worse. I think another thing that needs to be kept in mind is that even in the areas where Iraqis are not better off, there is a real chance that they will be soon. Some of the things going on are kinda like teething pains, in the long run things will be better.

Also, my understanding is that in most cases Iraq is still a better place to be than Iran or Syria or the Sudan. Or North Korea, for that matter.

ustwo - congratulations on your upcoming parenthood. after several months of reading your posts (and disagreeing 90% of the time) i would like to suggest a new thread. how do you picture his or her future? best and worst case scenarios.
is an american youth in 2020 going to be better off given current policy? compared to an iraqi kid born in the next few months?
no doubt this is a concern. I´d honestly be interested.
and no, the iraqis are not better off. their lives will continue to get worse and worse. the afghanis lives are improving because without the taliban they have once again had a bumper opium crop. any rebuilding money is quickly sucked up and diverted to offshore accounts. the funds for iraq are being diverted to more security (meaning private contracts) for occupying (!) troops and guarding oil fields and pipelines.
the average iraqi picking turds out of their drinking water before boiling it 10 times are not better off. on the contrary. their great grandchildren will suffer from the arrogance, errors in judgement and delusions of grandeur of the current administration. and your great grandchildren will.....?

Where did you get this info from? I find it very hard to believe that Iraq and Syria offer higher standards of living than Kuwait, the UAE or Qatar, or are more westernized than Lebanon, the UAE or Egypt.

In two recent studies carried out in the Middle East, one by the BBC and the other by Al Watan, a Saudi newspaper, more people in the region side with Osama Bin Laden than George Bush - not because they like Bin Laden, but because they absolutely detest Bush.

I find it hard to be optimistic about Iraq's future. Ironically, the removal of Saddam has opened up the doors for the first time to many of the elements that the US alleged were already in place in Iraq. Al Qaeda now has strong support in the region and no-one to stop them infiltrating it and establishing themselves. I fear another Taliban regime in Iraq over the course of the next year or so.

Those "necessities" are a new found luxury for many Iraqi citizens. Many areas now have safe to drink tap water, electricity, telephones, satelite tv and internet service for the first time ever. Money earned from the sale of oil under U.N. sanctions was supposed to be used for purchasing food and medical supplies. It wasn't. It was used to fund the construction of more palaces, and for the purchase of gold plated submachine guns.

Iraqi hospitals have more and better equipment and supplies now than ever before. Many were depleted from the Iran Iraq war, and are only now equipped to handle things most take for granted, such as vaccinations and pediatric care. Iraq decayed into something less than a third world country under Saddam's rule. I'm seeing it with my own eyes everyday.

Have you looked at the crime statistics of other countries? Violence happens because of human nature. Violence happens because of accidents. Find the true root of violence, and you may find a way to end it worldwide. I'm sure everyone in France knew someone killed in WWI and again in WWII. I'm sure everyone in Israel knows someone who has been killed by a terrorist bombing. War is hell. War take a heavy toll. Please, be my guest, find a way to eliminate the part of human nature that leads us to make war amongst ourselves. I would be happy to be unemployed due to a lack of necessity.

The coalition forces in Iraq are not fighting terrorists. We never were. We've never pretended to be either. Initially, we fought against the standing military of the Saddam regime. After conquering the Iraqi military, we set about the process of rebuilding it, equipping it, and training the volunteer soldiers. Volunteers? Yes, Iraqi men are no longer forced into the military under threat of "be a soldier or we kill you and your family." It is by choice now, one of the many new found freedoms that the citizens of Iraq now have.

Who are we fighting now? Not terrorists. We are now fighting insurgents. Many may call them terrorists, and I suppose it may be a matter of perspective. If a militia formed in the United States or Great Britian, or any other country, and began targeting government officials for execution, blowing up police stations, and setting off car bombs in crowded market places, would we call them terrorists? Probably. The same people we look at as insurgents, may truthfully be labeled as terrorists by the Iraqi government. Most of the insurgents are Iraqi citizens. Some are not. Some are truly terrorists, who have traveled to Iraq for the sole pleasure of being able to set off huge bombs to kill innocent people, and to try to make sure that the U.S. fails in it's attempt to bring democracy to Iraq.

I don't believe the term had been invented at that time, but if it had been, I think it would be safe to say that Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington et all would definitely have been branded as terrorists.
As I said before, it's a matter of perspective. The Boston Tea Party would more than likely qualify as a terrorist attack on the British economy.

Not necessarily. Not when that animal happens to be a human being. Why were the victims of the Nazi concentration camps complacent? Why didn't they rise up and attack en masse, 1000 inmates per guard, and liberate themselves from the camps and systematic extermination? Why did the Iraqi people allow a small handful of brutal tyrants make life hell for them, and cripple the country to the point that it did? Why do so many people from Iraq and other countries try to immigrate, legally or otherwise, to other countries for more freedom and opportunity, instead of staying home and trying to make their own country a better place?

You talk without knowledge of the subject. Their are only a select few hot spots in the country. Outside of the Sunni Triangle, life is stable of steadily improving for all Iraqis. Inside the Sunni Triangle, the majority of Iraqi citizens are happy, safe, and prosperous. They are earning more money now than ever before, and enjoying many new found freedoms and luxuries.
The large number of satelite dishes on homes and the new luxury cars on the roads speak for themselves. The markets are full of fresh fruits and vegetables for the first time in what I'm told is years.

The Green Zone (think Baghdad Beverly Hills) is a target for attacks by the insurgents because that is where the new Iraqi government is headquartered.

Most of the patrols by U.S. forces in and around Baghdad see nothing more exciting than happy children waving at them as they drive past. It's really the exception to the norm for one of our convoys to be attacked, either by small arms fire or IEDs.

civil war is coming
 

soon we'll have to get out of there and once we do, all hell will break loose - the best outcome and a most likely scenario is that after a period of civil war, Iran will step in and take over the whole or parts of Iraq; we will then have to face a more powerful Iran and perhaps another war, far more bloody than the one with Iraq; the end

I can tell you from first hand experience, on a daily basis, power lines are being run through neighborhoods where they did not previously exist. Water treatment plants that had not been functioning in more than 10 years are being brought online so that clean drinking water is available. Phone lines are also being strung, and cell phone towers are being erected. I was personally involved in the delivery of more than 150 pallets of medical supplies to one hospital in Baghdad. Beds, defibrillators, medicine, surgical supplies, x-ray equipment, vaccines, even prenatal vitamins, baby formula, and diapers. An area where prenatal care was non existant for more than a decade is now able to provide quality prenatal care to expecting mothers and their unborn children.

Patience, grasshoppah.
You might be correct; but after the US elections are over, word has it that there are going to be MAJOR operations aimed at ridding the country of the insurgents in the 'Sunni Triangle' and clearing the way for the Iraqis to elect their own leader. Its going to be a very interesting upcoming 4 months.

Give me a f*cking break. You're quoting a press release by the International Republican Institute--an Republican organ which only serves to promote its ultraconservative foreign policy agenda. These are the same fascists nuts who, just this year, helped overthrow the democratically elected leader in Haiti.

Did the Bush Administration Allow a Network of Right-Wing Republicans to Foment a Violent Coup in Haiti?

The International Republican Institute: Promulgating Democracy of Another Variety

Here are some real poll results in raw data and in articles that I have collected:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...q-findings.htm

http://www.msnbc.com/modules/newswee...l_14-23May.pdf

Poll of Iraqis Reveals Anger Toward US

82 percent of Iraqis oppose U.S. occupation

All of these numbers are rather old and before the recent up tick on Iraqi resistance.

Come on guys, it doesn't take a whole lot of research to debunk some of the assumptions made by the pro-war crowd.

Iraq is Worse Off Than Before the War Began, GAO Reports

Here is an article from time magazine. It is a few months old (July 19th issue) but Iraq definatly hasn't gotten better since then.

Are the dissidents wives still getting raped and tortured as a matter of public policy?

I'm not so sure anarchy is better than a dictatorship. GWB needs to find a way to get IRAQI support within Iraq. This is something that is falling every day. Running and gunning is not the way to gain their support. It is probably already to late.

When we first invaded we were set up very nicely. The majority wanted us there but now they don't. This is a problem.

Here are some quick stats from this weeks time.

US deaths in Iraq by month:

Jan: 47
Feb: 19
March: 52
April: 147
May: 88
June: 44
July 61
Aug: 71
Sept (through the 10th): 29
September linearly projected: 90ish

The resistance and violence is growing.

Hmmm.... They say they are better off and very thankful for the coalition effort. Isnt that good enough?
If I asked you if you were better off and relied on someone else to answer for you how would you feel?

Ustwo, MIA. what happen? Don´t worry, Bush will probably be in office for the next 20 years and if you´re under 35 years of age you can catch the Baghdad nightlife together with Jr. in a few decades. Because, Payaso, we´ll still be there.