Cheney Economics - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Fred181 · 09-12-2004, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Sept. 9, 2004 — Indicators measure the nation's unemployment rate, consumer spending and other economic milestones, but Vice President Dick Cheney says it misses the hundreds of thousands who make money selling on eBay.

"That's a source that didn't even exist 10 years ago," Cheney told an audience in Cincinnati on Thursday. "Four hundred thousand people make some money trading on eBay."

<A HREF="http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040909_2012.html">ABC News</A>

I am speechless...
Seriously....

Mephisto2 · 09-12-2004, 07:05 PM

Hahaha...

Now that's funny.

And I always thought Cheney was the intelligent one!

Mr Mephisto

pan6467 · 09-12-2004, 07:42 PM

Oh my God..... it won't be long before Bush and the IRS start taking taxes out of E-Bay sales.

Surprised he didn't mention garage sales in there also.

JumpinJesus · 09-12-2004, 07:49 PM

On a related note, the White House today announced that the U.S. is actually home to millions of doctors. White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card stated that the number of doctors in the U.S. "proves that those socialist ninnies in France can't compete with the smarts of the American populace."

Beth McMillan of Chicago was surprised to learn of her stature as one of the nation's millions of health care workers after applying a bandage to her 7 year old daughter's boo-boo. "I'm thrilled," said the tired looking mother of two. "I'd always wanted to be a doctor but could never really afford the tuition of medical school. I can't wait to buy my first Mercedes. I hope my new career doesn't interfere with my job at Home Depot."

SinisterMotives · 09-12-2004, 07:57 PM

I'm with you, Fred. This was posted on another board the other day, and when I saw it I thought what the fuck, is that the administration's answer to unemployment? It never ceases to amaze me how crass these people are.

phyzix525 · 09-12-2004, 08:00 PM

it would amaze you how much people make on there though.

Mephisto2 · 09-12-2004, 08:08 PM

Same applies for girls selling their soiled panties phyzix.

Should the Bush Administration start taking credit for that too?

Mr Mephisto

Rekna · 09-12-2004, 08:19 PM

don't forget how much money people make yearly for prostitution and the sale of drugs!

Fred181 · 09-12-2004, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

don't forget how much money people make yearly for prostitution and the sale of drugs!

You're right! and garage sales, and the homeless dudes that collect cans! This country isn't bad off at all; our economy ROCKS!!

Rekna · 09-12-2004, 08:27 PM

Man those bums on the corner can make good money!

lhl · 09-12-2004, 08:29 PM

Hey guys, stop being economic girly-men! I mean, look at those numbers!

Ustwo · 09-12-2004, 09:15 PM

While its been fun cleaning up for the recession Clinton/Gore left us, lets look at something Cheney was saying up close..

Quote:

Key Category Performance - Based on Q2-04 GMV, eBay has twelve categories that deliver $1
billion or more in worldwide annualized GMV: eBay Motors at $9.8 billion; Consumer Electronics
at $2.5 billion; Computers at $2.4 billion; Clothing and Accessories at $2.2 billion;
Books/Movies/Music at $2.1 billion; Sports at $2.0 billion; Home & Garden at $1.6 billion;
– 3 –
eBay Announces Q2-04 Earnings (cont.)
Collectibles at $1.4 billion; Toys at $1.3 billion; Jewelry & Watches at $1.2 billion; Cameras &
Photo at $1.1 billion; and Business & Industrial at $1.1 billion.

Those are JUST the categories which are over 1 billion in sales.

Maybe Cheney aint so dumb.

Rekna · 09-12-2004, 09:35 PM

And a lot of items sold on ebay are being sold at a loss of profit because people are strapped for cash.

Mephisto2 · 09-12-2004, 09:36 PM

And maybe it was just a stupid thing to say.

If you want to start taxing people for private sales, then go right ahead. But you should consider how you elocute yourself.

Mr Mephisto

sprocket · 09-12-2004, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

And maybe it was just a stupid thing to say.

If you want to start taxing people for private sales, then go right ahead. But you should consider how you elocute yourself.

Mr Mephisto

Where did he mention taxing the ebay sales? He just mentioned that people making income off of ebay who dont have "real" jobs arent reflected in the unemployment rate (well they are reflected.. as unemployed).

Rekna · 09-12-2004, 09:56 PM

People using ebay as a buisness aren't considered unemployed. The people who are selling grandmas antique bedset because they need the money because they can't get a job are the ones who are unemployed

Fred181 · 09-12-2004, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

People using ebay as a buisness aren't considered unemployed. The people who are selling grandmas antique bedset because they need the money because they can't get a job are the ones who are unemployed

Exactly, go on ebay, for the most part you are buying stuff from buisnesses that do (or should) report there earnings and sales. They only real situation that I would (begin to) agree with you Ustwo would be in eBAY's top performer: motors. That's becuase one could argue that the vehicles sold on eBAY prior to it's inception could have been traded in and sold by a used car lot, thus reducing the amount of money reported to the Govt and increasing dollars into private pockets. In the other catagories however, either the stuff is being sold by an established company, or its stuff being sold by private individuals that are making very little, if any more than the item is worth.

Ustwo · 09-12-2004, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

People using ebay as a buisness aren't considered unemployed. The people who are selling grandmas antique bedset because they need the money because they can't get a job are the ones who are unemployed

What country do you live in?

It can't be the US.

Ebay, the last resort of the unemployed.....

Give me a break, you are just partisan trolling.

Rekna · 09-12-2004, 10:30 PM

No i'm saying the people who use ebay as a buisness or other auction houses (like amazon ect) are not considered unemployed. If you are looking for unemployed people that use ebay you are looking for people who are desperate for cash.

Rekna · 09-12-2004, 10:31 PM

Just in case you didn't bother looking at the graph above

Rekna · 09-12-2004, 10:32 PM

so Ustwo where is this recession left from Clinton/Gore? I think you used the wrong word there because it doesn't look like a recession to me.

Ustwo · 09-12-2004, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

so Ustwo where is this recession left from Clinton/Gore? I think you used the wrong word there because it doesn't look like a recession to me.

I don't think you understand economics, nor have you read anything in the papers in the last 4 years apparently. Lets try using google shall we?

Now if we ignore left wing type web sites and go only for the left leaning Washinton Post we get...

Quote:

Economists Say Recession Started in 2000

By Nell Henderson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, January 22, 2004; 1:34 PM

The last recession may have started in the last months of the Clinton administration rather than at the beginning of the Bush administration.

The panel of economists that serves as the official timekeeper for the nation's recessions is considering moving the starting date for the most recent economic decline back to November or December of 2000, a member of the group said today, confirming a report that appeared in The Wall Street Journal.

"We have discussed it already and there seems to be some inclination to move the date" to some time in the last three months of 2000, said Victor Zarnowitz. He is a member of the National Bureau of Economic Research's business cycle dating committee, which determines the widely accepted start and end dates to U.S. recessions.

The seven-member panel had earlier decided that the recession began in March 2001 and ended in November that year. President Bush took office in January 2001.

NBER is a private, nonprofit economic research group. Zarnowitz, an economist with the Conference Board, another private research group, said the dating decision will be nonpolitical, based solely on recently revised government economic data.

"Presidents don't have so much to do, in my opinion, with when recessions start," Zarnowitz said. "Clearly the boom happened under Clinton, and the boom generates the bust. And no administration has the power to change that."

NBER President Martin Feldstein said, "It is clear that the revised data have made our original March date for the start of the recession much too late," but he did not offer a different date. "We are still waiting for additional monthly data before making a final judgment," said Feldstein, a Harvard University economist. "Until we have the additional data, we cannot make a decision."

The Wall Street Journal story quoted Robert Hall, a Stanford University economics professor who chairs the dating committee, saying that "a reasonable look at the numbers" could lead one to decide that the recession started some time between November 2000 and February 2001.

Zarnowitz said he will look further at the data, but thinks now that "the recession started maybe November or December 2000 and lasted to November of 2001." If so, that would be an average duration for a post World War II recession, changing the perception up until now that the last recession was shorter than average.

Zarnowitz said he does not know when the committee will meet to make an official decision.

The panel picked March 2001 as the beginning of the recession primarily because that was when U.S. payroll employment began to drop seriously. Since then, the economy has lost some 2.4 million jobs.

But the economists look at other indicators as well. The group defines a recession as "a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP [inflation-adjusted gross domestic product], real income, employment, industrial production and wholesale-retail sales. A recession begins just after the economy reaches a peak of activity and ends as the economy reaches its trough."

In previous recessions, the payroll jobs number was a pretty good proxy for economic growth, rising and falling as the economy expanded and contracted, although often with a bit of a lag. But the two have diverged dramatically in recent years, with payrolls continuing to shrink more than two years after the end of the recession. Meanwhile the nation's output of goods and services, or GDP, declined in the first three quarters of 2001, but started growing again in the fourth quarter of that year and has continued to rise since then.

This has been possible because businesses adopted new technology and management methods to boost production while shedding workers. The growth in productivity -- the amount of goods and services produced for each hour worked -- rose through the contraction and recovery since.

Zarnowitz said the NBER dating committee closely follows an index that combines measures of industrial production, total demand, personal income minus government transfer payments, and the number of nonfarm payroll jobs--giving more weight to the jobs component. According to recently revised data, the index "started falling in December or November 2000," he said.

"Three of the four components would definitely point to an earlier date" for the beginning of the recession, he said. "Only one lagged."

It was pretty common knowledge my friend. In the 2000 campaign Leno even did a joke about who would WANT to win the 2000 election since they would inherit the recession.

The bad things about a recession do not happen over night nor do they go away the second its over. I know this is pointless with you, I know you are not interested in facts, and I know I'm just waisting my time, but its ok I don't have work until 1:30 tomorrow.

OpieCunningham · 09-13-2004, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

The bad things about a recession do not happen over night nor do they go away the second its over.

That's very true.

But recovery's have never taken this long. Which is exactly why Cheney is grasping for straws with thie eBay nonsense.

<img src="http://www.epinet.org/images/figure1b.gif">

From here:
Labor market left behind
Evidence shows that post-recession economy has not turned into a recovery for workers
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/briefingpapers_bp142

But, yeah. What's the use trying to explain this to you? You might not have to work until 1:30 tomorrow - but even if I sat here and tried to explain it to you until then, I'd never get past your impenetrable partisan shield.

pedro padilla · 09-13-2004, 01:37 AM

lemonade stands are also an enormous source of revenue. those kids drive ferraris.
also the squeegee windshield brigades. major new economic boom. and i don´t remember that existing 10 years ago. yes, we´re on a roll.

onetime2 · 09-14-2004, 04:12 AM

There is more economic ingnorance in this thread than anyone can ever attribute to Dick Cheney.

FWIW, the point I suspect Cheney was trying to make is that there are large segments of the economy that economic indicators are struggling to capture.

And, even if his point was that all the unemployed are now really self employed on ebay

, taking one quote and making sweeping generalizations about his economic knowledge is certainly a flawed methodology.

But hey, if you wanna go that route, who am I to stop you.

hannukah harry · 09-14-2004, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I know this is pointless with you, I know you are not interested in facts, and I know I'm just waisting my time

pot, let me introduce you to kettle...

Locobot · 09-14-2004, 08:38 PM

Go CHENEY!!! lets bring the hammer down on these hottubber personal-sale eBay muthafuckas! Teenagers who mow lawns? THE IRS is coming U canNOT hide! Selling baby clothes in the classifieds? Your taxbreak fatcat days are over! You aluminium-can emperors [Schwarzenegger voice] vill be krusht!

pan6467 · 09-14-2004, 09:08 PM

Maybe we can get these new found E-Bay millionaire unemploed workers to fund our military Bush sure as hell doesn't want to. He's too busy making sure Haliburton makes billions.

Scipio · 09-14-2004, 09:42 PM

Here's the thing: Cheney provides no numbers. I'm not talking sales; I'm talking numbers of people living off the thing. This whole argument is pointless when there isn't even a prima facie case.

As a side note, it's interesting to see people rush to his defense. It's also interesting to see people debating how good/bad the economy is, and if so who's fault it was. If the economy was really that good, wouldn't Cheney have something to talk about besides how Ebay is propping up our economy?

onetime2 · 09-15-2004, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scipio

Here's the thing: Cheney provides no numbers. I'm not talking sales; I'm talking numbers of people living off the thing. This whole argument is pointless when there isn't even a prima facie case.

As a side note, it's interesting to see people rush to his defense. It's also interesting to see people debating how good/bad the economy is, and if so who's fault it was. If the economy was really that good, wouldn't Cheney have something to talk about besides how Ebay is propping up our economy?

Interesting that you don't care one lick about context either. There is no context to the discussion and yet you expect firm numbers?

People have talked about the economy to no end (including Cheney) and he never said Ebay is propping up the economy. But hey why bother with facts right?

maypo · 09-19-2004, 04:12 PM

A side note, some years ago when Christine Whitman was Governor of New Jersey the state was desperately searching for revenue. They began poring over hobbyist trade shows for out of state vendors selling sci-fi models, dolls, etc. If they found someone who had been to the state a few times they would seize their goods, estimate the sales tax owed and require it to be payed for the release of the merchandise. Imagine holding some action figures for payment of $200, what cruelty. The most hilarious part of the article was the closing of the article when the tax department said they were going to begin looking into bars and restaurants because they may be concealing income. Of course this never happened as the bar owners aren't powerless (and they are concealing huge income,mostly cash business you know).
Ebay sales are not tax free. If you are selling items as part of a business you are required to show it as income. It is therefore, part of the official report on the economy, not some secret asset.

Oh, and by the way, if you don't know the economy is in bad shape, even after massive tax cuts, you aren't looking.

onetime2 · 09-20-2004, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maypo

Oh, and by the way, if you don't know the economy is in bad shape, even after massive tax cuts, you aren't looking.

Really? Please feel free to elaborate. What are you basing this on? GDP? Unemployment? Trade Deficits? Interest Rates? Inflation? Productivity? Stock market? Home prices? Home ownership? Consumer debt? Savings? Farmer's Almanac? What exactly is bad about the economy? And how do these "bad" factors related to historical numbers?

09-12-2004, 07:42 PM	#3 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Oh my God..... it won't be long before Bush and the IRS start taking taxes out of E-Bay sales. Surprised he didn't mention garage sales in there also. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

09-12-2004, 07:49 PM	#4 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	On a related note, the White House today announced that the U.S. is actually home to millions of doctors. White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card stated that the number of doctors in the U.S. "proves that those socialist ninnies in France can't compete with the smarts of the American populace." Beth McMillan of Chicago was surprised to learn of her stature as one of the nation's millions of health care workers after applying a bandage to her 7 year old daughter's boo-boo. "I'm thrilled," said the tired looking mother of two. "I'd always wanted to be a doctor but could never really afford the tuition of medical school. I can't wait to buy my first Mercedes. I hope my new career doesn't interfere with my job at Home Depot." __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

09-12-2004, 08:00 PM	#6 (permalink)
phyzix525 Psycho Location: Broken Arrow, OK	it would amaze you how much people make on there though. __________________ It's hard to remember we're alive for the first time It's hard to remember we're alive for the last time It's hard to remember to live before you die It's hard to remember that our lives are such a short time It's hard to remember when it takes such a long time

09-14-2004, 04:12 AM	#25 (permalink)
onetime2 Junkie Location: NJ	There is more economic ingnorance in this thread than anyone can ever attribute to Dick Cheney. FWIW, the point I suspect Cheney was trying to make is that there are large segments of the economy that economic indicators are struggling to capture. And, even if his point was that all the unemployed are now really self employed on ebay , taking one quote and making sweeping generalizations about his economic knowledge is certainly a flawed methodology. But hey, if you wanna go that route, who am I to stop you. __________________ Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

09-14-2004, 09:08 PM	#28 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Maybe we can get these new found E-Bay millionaire unemploed workers to fund our military Bush sure as hell doesn't want to. He's too busy making sure Haliburton makes billions. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

09-12-2004, 07:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Hahaha... Now that's funny. And I always thought Cheney was the intelligent one! Mr Mephisto

09-12-2004, 07:57 PM	#5 (permalink)
SinisterMotives Junkie	I'm with you, Fred. This was posted on another board the other day, and when I saw it I thought what the fuck, is that the administration's answer to unemployment? It never ceases to amaze me how crass these people are.

09-12-2004, 08:08 PM	#7 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Same applies for girls selling their soiled panties phyzix. Should the Bush Administration start taking credit for that too? Mr Mephisto

09-12-2004, 08:19 PM	#8 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	don't forget how much money people make yearly for prostitution and the sale of drugs!

09-12-2004, 08:27 PM	#10 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Man those bums on the corner can make good money!

09-12-2004, 08:29 PM	#11 (permalink)
lhl Upright	Hey guys, stop being economic girly-men! I mean, look at those numbers!

09-12-2004, 09:35 PM	#13 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	And a lot of items sold on ebay are being sold at a loss of profit because people are strapped for cash.

09-12-2004, 09:36 PM	#14 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	And maybe it was just a stupid thing to say. If you want to start taxing people for private sales, then go right ahead. But you should consider how you elocute yourself. Mr Mephisto

09-12-2004, 09:56 PM	#16 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	People using ebay as a buisness aren't considered unemployed. The people who are selling grandmas antique bedset because they need the money because they can't get a job are the ones who are unemployed

09-12-2004, 10:30 PM	#19 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	No i'm saying the people who use ebay as a buisness or other auction houses (like amazon ect) are not considered unemployed. If you are looking for unemployed people that use ebay you are looking for people who are desperate for cash.

09-12-2004, 10:31 PM	#20 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Just in case you didn't bother looking at the graph above

09-12-2004, 10:32 PM	#21 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	so Ustwo where is this recession left from Clinton/Gore? I think you used the wrong word there because it doesn't look like a recession to me.

09-13-2004, 01:37 AM	#24 (permalink)
pedro padilla Insane	lemonade stands are also an enormous source of revenue. those kids drive ferraris. also the squeegee windshield brigades. major new economic boom. and i don´t remember that existing 10 years ago. yes, we´re on a roll.

09-14-2004, 08:38 PM	#27 (permalink)
Locobot is awesome!	Go CHENEY!!! lets bring the hammer down on these hottubber personal-sale eBay muthafuckas! Teenagers who mow lawns? THE IRS is coming U canNOT hide! Selling baby clothes in the classifieds? Your taxbreak fatcat days are over! You aluminium-can emperors [Schwarzenegger voice] vill be krusht!

09-14-2004, 09:42 PM	#29 (permalink)
Scipio Mencken Location: College	Here's the thing: Cheney provides no numbers. I'm not talking sales; I'm talking numbers of people living off the thing. This whole argument is pointless when there isn't even a prima facie case. As a side note, it's interesting to see people rush to his defense. It's also interesting to see people debating how good/bad the economy is, and if so who's fault it was. If the economy was really that good, wouldn't Cheney have something to talk about besides how Ebay is propping up our economy? __________________ "Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."

09-19-2004, 04:12 PM	#31 (permalink)
maypo Tilted	New Jersey, land of the free A side note, some years ago when Christine Whitman was Governor of New Jersey the state was desperately searching for revenue. They began poring over hobbyist trade shows for out of state vendors selling sci-fi models, dolls, etc. If they found someone who had been to the state a few times they would seize their goods, estimate the sales tax owed and require it to be payed for the release of the merchandise. Imagine holding some action figures for payment of $200, what cruelty. The most hilarious part of the article was the closing of the article when the tax department said they were going to begin looking into bars and restaurants because they may be concealing income. Of course this never happened as the bar owners aren't powerless (and they are concealing huge income,mostly cash business you know). Ebay sales are not tax free. If you are selling items as part of a business you are required to show it as income. It is therefore, part of the official report on the economy, not some secret asset. Oh, and by the way, if you don't know the economy is in bad shape, even after massive tax cuts, you aren't looking.