Mutilation or modification? Forked tongues raise issues... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Prophecy · 05-15-2003, 06:27 AM

Linky

---------------------------------------------
Illinois bill seeks to ban tongue - splitting

May 13, 2003 | CHICAGO (AP) --

Ears with two, three, even five piercings are ancient history. Studs in tongues and navels are, for many, no big deal. And who doesn't have a tattoo? These days, the attention-grabbing look is tongue-splitting: cutting the tongue to make it forked.

Some say the practice, still relatively uncommon but edging up in popularity, is nothing short of mutilation. Lawmakers in Illinois are considering regulations that would all but outlaw it.

And earlier this year, several branches of the armed services banned tongue-splitting. Officials at Seymour Johnson Air Force Base in North Carolina say one airman had the tissue in his split tongue reopened and sewn back together in February to avoid being kicked out of the service.

Those who've had their tongues split call it a body modification, and see it as an enhancement.

A few do it for shock value. Others describe the experience as spiritual. And many say they simply like how it looks and feels.

"When I first saw it, I thought tongue-splitting was the most beautiful thing I've seen in my life," says James Keen, a 19-year-old from Scottsville, Ky., who got his tongue cut by a local body piercer in December after a surgeon declined to do it.

Keen, who now speaks with a slight lisp, says most people don't know he's had it done unless he shows them.

When he does, he demonstrates how both forks of his tongue can move independently. And it's a plus, he says, when it comes to kissing.

"People are very curious about how it feels," says Keen, whose parents gave him their blessing — and the $500 it took to do it.

He says the cutting was done in three sessions with a scalpel heated by a blow torch and no anesthetic.

Keen's story is exactly what Illinois state Rep. David Miller, who's also a dentist, had in mind when he authored a bill requiring that tongue-splitting be done by a doctor or dentist, and only for medical reasons.

The bill passed nearly unanimously in the Illinois House and is awaiting a vote in the Senate.

Last summer, state lawmakers in Michigan narrowly defeated a similar bill. "Ultimately, it came down to an individual rights issue," says Tom Kochheiser, a spokesman for the Michigan Dental Association, which supported but did not introduce that state's unsuccessful measure. He says the association has no plans to pursue the issue further.

Miller, a Democrat from Chicago's south suburbs, says he understands the notion of personal freedom. "But I'm not sure the people getting this done understand the risks," he says. "We're choosing safety over cosmetics."

One of the main worries, Miller says, is risk of infection from bacteria in the mouth. He also says a person's speech could be affected by scar tissue and the splitting itself.

Essie Hakim, a 30-year-old New Yorker who had her tongue split by a surgeon in 1998, says she did have to learn how to speak again. But she enjoyed the process, and says she knew what she was getting into.

"I'm an adult making a decision that's not harming anybody. And I'm not harming me," says Hakim, who believes piercing and tongue-splitting are no different than plastic surgery.

Beauty, she says, is simply in the eye of the beholder.

"People get breast implants. People do body building," Hakim says. "People do so many things that are never questioned."

She and others believe the Illinois bill, if it passes, will actually do more harm by making it difficult for the most qualified people — doctors — to do the procedure.

Shannon Larratt, a 29-year-old Canadian who had his tongue split by a surgeon, worries that many people will simply go to "underground" parlors to have it done in unsafe conditions.

"It means only the hacks will be left doing it," says Larratt, editor of the Body Modification E-zine, a Web site he publishes from a farm in rural Ontario.

While Larratt estimates that only about 2,000 people in the Western world have split tongues, that's "almost commonplace, as heavy 'mods' go," he says, using the abbreviated term for body modification.

And curiosity about having it done is growing, says Scott Jania, a senior piercer at Progressive Piercing in Chicago.

Jania says he now gets seven to 10 inquiries a week from customers who want to know if he'll split their tongues. But, afraid he'll hurt someone or get in trouble with city regulators, he turns them down flat.

Says Jania: "My career is far too important to risk it."

---------------------------------------------

I posted this b/c yesterday on the radio I heard that another state was thinking about passing a bill along the same lines that says tongue splitting would be illegal. While I have no ambitions to split my own tongue, but I was wondering wouldn't this be protected as a freedom of "speech" or expression?

maximusveritas · 05-15-2003, 06:32 AM

"the cutting was done in three sessions with a scalpel heated by a blow torch and no anesthetic."

Somehow that doesn't sound to appealing to me. But if someone wants to do that to themselves, I really don't care.

Charlatan · 05-15-2003, 07:05 AM

Outlawing this proceedure is not a good idea...

It will be driven underground and performed in the worst of places. Who cares if someone wants to modify their bodies?

It has only been 10 years since body modification hit the mainstream (ie piercing and tattooing). Let's see where we are at in another 10 to 20. The technology and willingness to alter our appearances will allow for some very odd modifications.

The guy who has modified his body to look like a leopard (or some such large cat) is only the beginning. Body Modification is to the youth of today what pot and LSD were to the youth of the 60s... Widespread experimentation (generally) leads to mainstream acceptance (ie Pot is about to be de-criminalized in Canada).

Prophecy · 05-15-2003, 07:22 AM

dude that altered his body to look like a leopard? links?

seretogis · 05-15-2003, 07:49 AM

Quote:

says Keen, whose parents gave him their blessing — and the $500 it took to do it.

Yet another failure of the baby-boomer generation.

The_Dude · 05-15-2003, 12:35 PM

i really think it's induvidual liberty to chose what they do w/ their body. (for adults)

seretogis · 05-15-2003, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
i really think it's induvidual liberty to chose what they do w/ their body. (for adults)

Yes, but it is still incredibly stupid. Far beyond piercing.

To have parents pay their 19 year old son to do this is nothing but incompetant parenting.

Mad_Gecko · 05-15-2003, 01:42 PM

Neither stupid nor smart, it is a freedom of individual choice. Just not my personal choice.

Not really my cup of tea and I probably (I have to say probably, she might be a hottie) wouldn't want to kiss someone who's had it done. But never seen it so couldn't say for sure.

As for parenting aspect, again I think that should be up to the parents to decide as long as they are mentally able. Its their money and their kids, so its their decision IMHO.

To make laws resticting individual freedoms that don't harm anyone else can lead down a very nasty path.

The_Dude · 05-15-2003, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
Yes, but it is still incredibly stupid. Far beyond piercing.

To have parents pay their 19 year old son to do this is nothing but incompetant parenting.

it's their choice to pay, nobody's making them under gun point

Kadath · 05-15-2003, 09:36 PM

I don't see how anyone can support banning this. My father is all uptight about my sister's eyebrow and nose piercings. If any of us came around with a tattoo, we'd be out of the will, so I can only imagine what he'd do with this. But that's a father's perogative, not the government's. I certainly think they should regulate the procedure, requiring proper sterilizations and safety, and under 18 should require parental consent, but that's it.

james t kirk · 05-17-2003, 06:38 AM

I like my tonge just the way it is thanks. The thought of slicing through it with a scalple makes me shiver.

But if you are so inclined, here's a very interesting website.

http://www.bmezine.com

You want over the top, try this one on for size

These are the real deal.....

http://www.bmezine.com/service/samples/tour4.html

Unknown Poster · 05-20-2003, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by james t kirk
I like my tonge just the way it is thanks. The thought of slicing through it with a scalple makes me shiver.

But if you are so inclined, here's a very interesting website.

http://www.bmezine.com

You want over the top, try this one on for size

These are the real deal.....

http://www.bmezine.com/service/samples/tour4.html

Aack! Why o why would someone do that?

Charlatan · 05-20-2003, 11:25 AM

I tried to make a joke, but I ended up making a disparaging comment instead, so I was edited

Charlatan · 05-20-2003, 11:27 AM

By the way... here is the link to the Leopard Man... saw him on Ripley's Believe it or Not.

Leopard Man - Tom Leppard

crewsor · 05-20-2003, 03:09 PM

Theres some crazy folks in this world. Why someone would want to mutilate themselves is beyound me. But that said, if they are over 21, its up to them. Don't outlaw it. That only makes it more dangerous for those who will do it anyway.

crumbbum · 05-20-2003, 03:21 PM

It's pretty messed up I think to do that to yourself- and pretty lame too. That aside, I suppose people should be allowed to do it if they want... but at the same time I have another inclination to say "make it illegal" to protect anyone that would want it from themselves. I know it isn't my place to judge, but I just don't get it. At the very least, it should be regulated so no one hurts themself.

Lebell · 05-20-2003, 05:42 PM

Like the more extreme penis splitting (yeah friends, I'm not foolin' ya), this isn't for me. That being said, outlawing it because one group of people think it's "mutilation" strikes me as hypocritical to the extreme, especially when they tend to be the more wealthy ones getting boob jobs and face lifts.

Why is tongue split "mutilation" but a face lift isn't? In both cases the individual is making a decision about how they want to look and are paying someone with a knife to make this vision reality.

Unknown Poster · 05-21-2003, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Why is tongue split "mutilation" but a face lift isn't? In both cases the individual is making a decision about how they want to look and are paying someone with a knife to make this vision reality.

Good point.

DelayedReaction · 05-21-2003, 09:25 AM

This is a wonderful example of people in power overrreacting to things they don't like. There isn't a "safety issue" here at all; the fact that the doctor refused to do the procedure and forced the kid to go underground should be the real issue at hand here.

It's the same level of bodily "mutilation" as any other cosmetic modification to the body; there is no valid reason to ban this kind of procedure.

And what's to stop people from just wandering over to the next state to get the procedure done? Are there going to be tongue checkpoints at every intersection to ensure the great state of Illinois is no longer infected by a plague of split tongues?

Give me a break.

warrrreagl · 05-21-2003, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by maximusveritas
"the cutting was done in three sessions with a scalpel heated by a blow torch and no anesthetic."

Somehow that doesn't sound to appealing to me. But if someone wants to do that to themselves, I really don't care.

I could not agree more. I have some psychological generalizations about people who want to mutilate their own bodies, but I save them for later when I can laugh at them.

And the rest of us ARE laughing....

Lebell · 05-21-2003, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by warrrreagl
I could not agree more. I have some psychological generalizations about people who want to mutilate their own bodies, but I save them for later when I can laugh at them.

And the rest of us ARE laughing....

warrrreagle,

Please define mutilation.

Is a boob job mutilation (bad ones don't count)?
Is a face life mutilation?
Are pierced ears mutilation?
Pierced tongues?
Tattoos?

My point is that 'mutilation' is a state of mind, sacred to the individual.

I've seen pictures of men who have had their testicles (nutting) and penises removed (and not as a sex change).

While this is extreme in the least, I am I allowed to say that it is mutilation when this is what truely makes them happy?

Dilbert1234567 · 05-23-2003, 03:17 PM

waht ever floats your boat i say, as long as the y dont wana fork my tongue

(my god tongue is spelled wierd)

WhoaitsZ · 05-23-2003, 06:29 PM

do you want a tattoo? go ahead.
do you want a piercing? go ahead
wanna split? go ahead
wanna severe your left arm ? go ahead
wanna commit suicide? later

let people be responsible for their own selves and get back to the people who need help.

i don't give a damn whatsoever to what people want to do as long as they harm no one else and don't expect free medical care for given decision.

05-15-2003, 06:27 AM	#1 (permalink)
Prophecy Oracle & Apollyon Location: Limbus Patrum	Mutilation or modification? Forked tongues raise issues... Linky --------------------------------------------- Illinois bill seeks to ban tongue - splitting May 13, 2003 \| CHICAGO (AP) -- Ears with two, three, even five piercings are ancient history. Studs in tongues and navels are, for many, no big deal. And who doesn't have a tattoo? These days, the attention-grabbing look is tongue-splitting: cutting the tongue to make it forked. Some say the practice, still relatively uncommon but edging up in popularity, is nothing short of mutilation. Lawmakers in Illinois are considering regulations that would all but outlaw it. And earlier this year, several branches of the armed services banned tongue-splitting. Officials at Seymour Johnson Air Force Base in North Carolina say one airman had the tissue in his split tongue reopened and sewn back together in February to avoid being kicked out of the service. Those who've had their tongues split call it a body modification, and see it as an enhancement. A few do it for shock value. Others describe the experience as spiritual. And many say they simply like how it looks and feels. "When I first saw it, I thought tongue-splitting was the most beautiful thing I've seen in my life," says James Keen, a 19-year-old from Scottsville, Ky., who got his tongue cut by a local body piercer in December after a surgeon declined to do it. Keen, who now speaks with a slight lisp, says most people don't know he's had it done unless he shows them. When he does, he demonstrates how both forks of his tongue can move independently. And it's a plus, he says, when it comes to kissing. "People are very curious about how it feels," says Keen, whose parents gave him their blessing — and the $500 it took to do it. He says the cutting was done in three sessions with a scalpel heated by a blow torch and no anesthetic. Keen's story is exactly what Illinois state Rep. David Miller, who's also a dentist, had in mind when he authored a bill requiring that tongue-splitting be done by a doctor or dentist, and only for medical reasons. The bill passed nearly unanimously in the Illinois House and is awaiting a vote in the Senate. Last summer, state lawmakers in Michigan narrowly defeated a similar bill. "Ultimately, it came down to an individual rights issue," says Tom Kochheiser, a spokesman for the Michigan Dental Association, which supported but did not introduce that state's unsuccessful measure. He says the association has no plans to pursue the issue further. Miller, a Democrat from Chicago's south suburbs, says he understands the notion of personal freedom. "But I'm not sure the people getting this done understand the risks," he says. "We're choosing safety over cosmetics." One of the main worries, Miller says, is risk of infection from bacteria in the mouth. He also says a person's speech could be affected by scar tissue and the splitting itself. Essie Hakim, a 30-year-old New Yorker who had her tongue split by a surgeon in 1998, says she did have to learn how to speak again. But she enjoyed the process, and says she knew what she was getting into. "I'm an adult making a decision that's not harming anybody. And I'm not harming me," says Hakim, who believes piercing and tongue-splitting are no different than plastic surgery. Beauty, she says, is simply in the eye of the beholder. "People get breast implants. People do body building," Hakim says. "People do so many things that are never questioned." She and others believe the Illinois bill, if it passes, will actually do more harm by making it difficult for the most qualified people — doctors — to do the procedure. Shannon Larratt, a 29-year-old Canadian who had his tongue split by a surgeon, worries that many people will simply go to "underground" parlors to have it done in unsafe conditions. "It means only the hacks will be left doing it," says Larratt, editor of the Body Modification E-zine, a Web site he publishes from a farm in rural Ontario. While Larratt estimates that only about 2,000 people in the Western world have split tongues, that's "almost commonplace, as heavy 'mods' go," he says, using the abbreviated term for body modification. And curiosity about having it done is growing, says Scott Jania, a senior piercer at Progressive Piercing in Chicago. Jania says he now gets seven to 10 inquiries a week from customers who want to know if he'll split their tongues. But, afraid he'll hurt someone or get in trouble with city regulators, he turns them down flat. Says Jania: "My career is far too important to risk it." --------------------------------------------- I posted this b/c yesterday on the radio I heard that another state was thinking about passing a bill along the same lines that says tongue splitting would be illegal. While I have no ambitions to split my own tongue, but I was wondering wouldn't this be protected as a freedom of "speech" or expression? __________________ La Disciplina È La Mia Spada, La Fede È Il Mio Schermo, Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza, E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense.

05-15-2003, 07:05 AM	#3 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Outlawing this proceedure is not a good idea... It will be driven underground and performed in the worst of places. Who cares if someone wants to modify their bodies? It has only been 10 years since body modification hit the mainstream (ie piercing and tattooing). Let's see where we are at in another 10 to 20. The technology and willingness to alter our appearances will allow for some very odd modifications. The guy who has modified his body to look like a leopard (or some such large cat) is only the beginning. Body Modification is to the youth of today what pot and LSD were to the youth of the 60s... Widespread experimentation (generally) leads to mainstream acceptance (ie Pot is about to be de-criminalized in Canada). __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-15-2003, 07:22 AM	#4 (permalink)
Prophecy Oracle & Apollyon Location: Limbus Patrum	dude that altered his body to look like a leopard? links? __________________ La Disciplina È La Mia Spada, La Fede È Il Mio Schermo, Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza, E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense.

05-15-2003, 12:35 PM	#6 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	i really think it's induvidual liberty to chose what they do w/ their body. (for adults) __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

05-15-2003, 01:42 PM	#8 (permalink)
Mad_Gecko Pro Libertate Location: City Gecko	Neither stupid nor smart, it is a freedom of individual choice. Just not my personal choice. Not really my cup of tea and I probably (I have to say probably, she might be a hottie) wouldn't want to kiss someone who's had it done. But never seen it so couldn't say for sure. As for parenting aspect, again I think that should be up to the parents to decide as long as they are mentally able. Its their money and their kids, so its their decision IMHO. To make laws resticting individual freedoms that don't harm anyone else can lead down a very nasty path. __________________ [color=bright blue]W[/color]e Stick To Glass "If three of us travel together, I shall find two teachers." Confucious

05-15-2003, 06:32 AM	#2 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	"the cutting was done in three sessions with a scalpel heated by a blow torch and no anesthetic." Somehow that doesn't sound to appealing to me. But if someone wants to do that to themselves, I really don't care.

05-15-2003, 09:36 PM	#10 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	I don't see how anyone can support banning this. My father is all uptight about my sister's eyebrow and nose piercings. If any of us came around with a tattoo, we'd be out of the will, so I can only imagine what he'd do with this. But that's a father's perogative, not the government's. I certainly think they should regulate the procedure, requiring proper sterilizations and safety, and under 18 should require parental consent, but that's it. __________________ it's quiet in here

05-17-2003, 06:38 AM	#11 (permalink)
james t kirk Junkie Location: Toronto	I like my tonge just the way it is thanks. The thought of slicing through it with a scalple makes me shiver. But if you are so inclined, here's a very interesting website. http://www.bmezine.com You want over the top, try this one on for size These are the real deal..... http://www.bmezine.com/service/samples/tour4.html Last edited by james t kirk; 05-17-2003 at 06:40 AM..

05-20-2003, 11:25 AM	#13 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I tried to make a joke, but I ended up making a disparaging comment instead, so I was edited __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke Last edited by Lebell; 05-20-2003 at 12:06 PM..

05-20-2003, 11:27 AM	#14 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	By the way... here is the link to the Leopard Man... saw him on Ripley's Believe it or Not. Leopard Man - Tom Leppard __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-20-2003, 03:09 PM	#15 (permalink)
crewsor Women want me. Men fear me. Location: Maryland,USA	Theres some crazy folks in this world. Why someone would want to mutilate themselves is beyound me. But that said, if they are over 21, its up to them. Don't outlaw it. That only makes it more dangerous for those who will do it anyway. __________________ We all have wings, some of us just don't know why.

05-20-2003, 03:21 PM	#16 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	It's pretty messed up I think to do that to yourself- and pretty lame too. That aside, I suppose people should be allowed to do it if they want... but at the same time I have another inclination to say "make it illegal" to protect anyone that would want it from themselves. I know it isn't my place to judge, but I just don't get it. At the very least, it should be regulated so no one hurts themself. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

05-20-2003, 05:42 PM	#17 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Like the more extreme penis splitting (yeah friends, I'm not foolin' ya), this isn't for me. That being said, outlawing it because one group of people think it's "mutilation" strikes me as hypocritical to the extreme, especially when they tend to be the more wealthy ones getting boob jobs and face lifts. Why is tongue split "mutilation" but a face lift isn't? In both cases the individual is making a decision about how they want to look and are paying someone with a knife to make this vision reality. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

05-21-2003, 09:25 AM	#19 (permalink)
DelayedReaction BFG Builder Location: University of Maryland	This is a wonderful example of people in power overrreacting to things they don't like. There isn't a "safety issue" here at all; the fact that the doctor refused to do the procedure and forced the kid to go underground should be the real issue at hand here. It's the same level of bodily "mutilation" as any other cosmetic modification to the body; there is no valid reason to ban this kind of procedure. And what's to stop people from just wandering over to the next state to get the procedure done? Are there going to be tongue checkpoints at every intersection to ensure the great state of Illinois is no longer infected by a plague of split tongues? Give me a break. __________________ If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

05-23-2003, 03:17 PM	#22 (permalink)
Dilbert1234567 Devils Cabana Boy Location: Central Coast CA	waht ever floats your boat i say, as long as the y dont wana fork my tongue (my god tongue is spelled wierd) __________________ Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

05-23-2003, 06:29 PM	#23 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	do you want a tattoo? go ahead. do you want a piercing? go ahead wanna split? go ahead wanna severe your left arm ? go ahead wanna commit suicide? later let people be responsible for their own selves and get back to the people who need help. i don't give a damn whatsoever to what people want to do as long as they harm no one else and don't expect free medical care for given decision.