Mephisto2

This just in...

I've also heard that the hostage takers were taking orders via phone and talking to Maskhadov during the siege. Seems like my earlier report of his "disowning" of them was erroneous. In other words, it looks like this deliberate targetting of children was not an abberation, but a premediated act on behalf of the Chechen seperatist forces.

Or so the Russians would have us believe.


Mr Mephisto

The Phenomenon

This sucks really. The whole situation sucks.

But Russia is no better, and they are just as guilty. How long did they think the Chechnians were going to live under the Russian boot? They have a 70% unemployment rate. Their women are repeatedly raped by the Russian army. The Russians have killed many times more innocent Chechenian men, women and children -- but they are not the terrorists. No ofcourse not. These people can't even choose their own local leaders -- some great Democracy in Russia, you know, as long as you are not one of "them".

I am in now way saying that what happened in that school is right. But Russia has no right to cry about this, and its not right for only the Chechnians to be called terrorists in this case. The Russians have been terrorising them for years. They are not playing the slightest bit dirtier than the Russians themselves.

Mephisto2

Whilst I agree that the Russians are not blameless, I definitely disagree that Russia is "no better."

Mr Mephisto

OpieCunningham

You may disagree, but the facts show that Russians have used torture, kidnapping, rape and murder for political control of Chechnya. And other than a few annoying (in comparison to the amount of terror tactics used by Russia) terrorist attacks, it has worked very well.

Rdr4evr

Whether Russia has used torture, rape and murder is besides the point. That doesn't give these assholes a right to murder innocent children. I hope they find them and bring them to justice.

OpieCunningham

Whether these assholes need to be caught and brought to justice, as they do, is besides the point. Russia needs to stop torturing, raping and murdering Chechens.

Mephisto2

You may disagree, but the facts show that the Chechen seperatists deliberately targetted children, a crime so heinous that the entire world is repulsed by it.

You may disagree, but the facts show that the EU, and Clinton era US, repeatedly criticised Russia for its activity in Chechnya.

You may disagree, but I have never stated that the Russians are blameless, but I do believe the Chechen terrorists are worse. And, to be perfectly honest, it seems most of the world agrees.

You may disagree, but I don't call the massacre of children, invalid patients and theatre goers as "annoying".


Mr Mephisto

OpieCunningham

That the whole world (in your estimation) might feel this way is a sad state of affairs. There is no good in the Russian handling of Chechnya and there is no good in the Chechen terrorists handling of how they themselves have been treated.

There is no 'not as bad as the other' in this situation - their actions are both equally reprehensible.

But really, Mephisto - haven't we gotten far, FAR off-topic? Aren't we supposed to be focusing our discussion on the monetary figure assigned to the reward for capture?

Mephisto2

Well, I don't disagree with you but I would not use the term "handling of how they themselves have been treated" to describe the massacre of children.

Both reprehensible I agree. But I think the targeting of children is just that little bit more heinous. Maybe it's an emotional thing.

HAHAHA...

Touché


Mr Mephisto

The Phenomenon

First of all I am in no way trying to justify ANYTHING the Cechnyan terrorists did.

Russia have done the same, they have also killed Chechnyan children without caring. While they may not have target children specifically, they did not care if children died at all.

The Checnyan terrorists' crimes are heinous, but Russia's is just as heinous. And while Russia has been "critisized" by the US, it does not mean much now does it? No one is proposing merely critisizing the Chechnyans for this, while that is all that the Russians have gotten in return for their heinous crimes, that include the murder of children. The Checnyan body count is much higher than the Russian one. Hell, I'd bet that more Chechnyan children have died than the Russian civilians in total. If we play this by the numbers Russia will have to go to hell long before any of these guys. And that is apart from the meriad of other crimes, like rape, that have been commited by the Russian government against the Checnyans.

Not to mention the families that they have broken up with their mass deportation of Chechnyans, literally hunderds of thousands.

The Russians are no better at all. Both factions' actions are disgusting. Both are just as evil, and just as much terrorists as the other.

The Phenomenon

Well it was a response to their treatment, wouldn't you agree?

And once again, the Russians' hands are not exactly clean of children's blood.

Mephisto2

Yeah, but you forget that Russia is an "ally" of the US in GWB's War on Terrorism.

Putin knows the US will do nothing to endanger that alliance. That's why they are relatively safe from unduely harsh American criticism. It also goes some way to explain their extreme anger when the EU began questioning them about the way events unfolded the other day.

Mr Mephisto

The Phenomenon

Uhuh.

World politics is a mess :/ (i know i know, its a cliche)

I do think that Checnya should be given a state, and that that should be it. Things like this would not have happened if the Russians just left them alone a decade ago. But the Russians will not let go of Chechnya, they want control of the oil. And that's the problem. Checnyan's are brutalized and murdered by the Russians for oil, and treatment like that results in a terrible violent response, just like this school incedent.

And this is not the last. Expect many more, this thing is going to escalate. The Checnyans have abandoned any sense of dignity and justice and they are just striking back now, and they will be looking to strike were it hurts the most, as they have, the Russians' children.

mrsandman

Chechen rebels, Chechen seperatists, heavily armed, masked men, Chechen terrorists,
are these not all terms used to describe Muslim extremists...Islamic fanatics? ?Why is the media not calling them that? Another case of being politically correct. These are the same people who fly planes into tall buildings.

__________________
Hail to ALL the troops and shadow warriors.

Zeld2.0

Could you be any more wrong?

There's a pretty sizable Orthodox population in Chechnya and this isn't exactly a religious war to begin with - this was a separatist civil war that started years ago and there have been two civil wars in the last 10 years there. Not a buncha whacko religious nutjobs starting wars - political.

Ustwo

And there are Christians in Egypt too, so what? Were these Orthodox Chirstians killing kids? You are trying to muddle the waters here. Sure they want to be seperate, it seems no group of organized muslims can play well with others unless they are in charge. Islam may be a religion of peace but its become the excuse for a culture of terror.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

powerclown

There's been an element of islamism in the area for a long, long time. Probably due to the fact that chechnya is less than 300 miles north of both iran & iraq.

1999 January/February - Maskhadov declares Islamic Shari'ah law will be phased in over three years.

It is widely acknowledged that al-qaeda is fully operational in the caucasus region. The fact that the population of chechnya is majority muslim is a convenient excuse for terrorist extremists to exploit the situation and attempt to carry out their agenda. It is effectively a religious war going on between russia & chechnya.

the_marq

One of my coworkers is Russian, he sent me this powerpoint presentation related to the Breslan seige.

<a href="http://telusplanet.net/public/markus_e/russian%20seige.pps">link</a>

I'm not taking one side or the other, just saying here's another pov. Oh and some if it is rather gory (fair warning).

__________________
The Truth:

Johnny Cash could have kicked Bruce Lee's ass if he wanted to.

#3 in a series

Rdr4evr

I would love the answer of the last question asked in that presentation as well.

I know where you are coming from and I do agree with you as I feel the same way towards America and Iraq in our current situation. I understand you’re saying that the Russians are no better and whatnot, but either way these child killers need to go. For example, I am 100% for Iraq in the current war as they are the innocent country in this mess. And although I feel that all the beheadings and Kidnappings are for the Americans always feeling they have the right to destroy whichever country they please and kill as much people as they please, the people who do the beheading need to be taken care of accordingly. Have you heard the saying "eye for and eye will leave the whole world blind"? That is what this world is coming down too unfortunately, and revenge will not make it better. I just answered my own question from above .

Hell, I wish they would kill each other and leave all the innocent people out of it, but unfortunately it doesn’t work that way.